S04.E03: Rocky Road

[stealinghome]

Will Scarett's cameo made no sense. According to Alice at the end of the spin-off, he was living it up with Anastasia in Wonderland. Now he's wandering around stealing random stuff?

Given that the actor is now a regular, I suspect we're going to see a lot more of him, and find out why he's back in Storybrooke. This episode was just a little prelude.

[Jean]

 

So I noticed in the last scene that Rumple no longer has his cane.

He finally let go of Bae. The cane was his reminder of what he did as a result of his fear of abandoning Bae, got him branded as a coward but let him be a father to Bae.

[Aliasscape]

Ginny and Josh have specifically said they don't want their son to be an actor. And babies can only work 20 minutes at a time. Thus the reason you cast twins, triplets, several groups of them if you have to. One downside to having spent a lot of time with young babies, I keep noticing every time they switch. I understand they can't use the same baby in August that they filmed in like May, but these kids have so many variations on how much hair they have and what color it is, that I just try not to pay attention. So even if they wanted to use their baby, they'd have to use theirs along with several other babies. Even AJ Cook of Criminal Minds wasn't using her real son to play her character's son until he was like a year old, I don't think.

 

Also between this board and many others, society needs a wake-up call on what a post pregnancy body looks like, especially that of a nursing mother. Now that they've made a big deal about Snow and stroller, I also hope they'll get out a sling. And I want to see Emma hold her brother too.

 

It's weird how much annoyed, snippy Emma actually makes me happy. I like her getting emotional.  Her go to emotion is angry before all else, and that she's only being grumpy and not throwing vases or breaking toasters IS her having a better control of her emotions. And when she tries too hard to keep her emotions in check, her magic doesn't work. The blasts from this ep reminded me of that first blast against Cora to save Snow. When Emma was ordering Hook around I did find myself wondering if it was as sheriff, as savior,or as the princess. I hated that Emma and David didn't keep a better eye on the Knave.

 

Regina waiting until Marian was frozen solid bugged me to absolutely no end. Uh, you buried yours in a dirty hole in the ground, I think Marian's can stand being held for awhile until you get some random box. I can't even talk about Henry or Regina and henry. Just no.

 

The Belle digs throughout this thread are gold. She still works better as a figment of Rump's imagination.  I'm so glad we got Emma and Elsa bonding. There was a time people wanted Belle and Emma to be friends. Ugh.  Thank goodness we were spared that.

 

And I'm absolutely tickled at the thought Emma and the Dairy Queen having a past. I can't wait to get into it. And then for her and Elsa to share more things in common. I hated the Dairy Queen trying to convince Elsa that Anna put her in the urn. IF Anna did that, we know it would only have been to save Elsa's life.

[jhlipton]

"The Evil Cleavage" will be the name of the all-girl band I need to form!

Except that Will already has his own True Love waiting for him back in Wonderland (Anastasia, to whom he's married). Not only would it be nonsensical, it would completely disregard established canon.

As Trini pointed out, that's so not a problem for this show, but thanks for the laugh.

[kingshearte]

I had actual quotes to reply to, but then I had to switch computers, so that's all gone. But a few thoughts:

 

When Snow Queen told Elsa that Anna put her in the urn, my theory is that it's true - because SQ ducked out of the way or somesuch, and Anna accidentally trapped Elsa in there instead. Presumably, SQ then did something to prevent Anna from getting Elsa back out, perhaps being the ultimate cause of Anna's current MIA status.

 

I was thinking that the fallout between Will and Robin was over Marian, and that he would turn out to be the True Love who could thaw her, but I guess the Wonderland events kind of nullify those theories. That said, if they're going to go the Regina-Robin direction, they'll presumably have to either provide an alternate True Love for Marian or somehow make her a villain. Cuz you can't just break up Robin & Marian and leave one of them with nothing.

 

Re. Hook's somewhat odd reaction to Emma's confession of why she'd been pushing him away, I don't think it's that odd. As someone pointed out, all of their kisses up to that point had been initiated by Emma, with Hook refraining from pushing himself on her without invitation, so to speak. Once she basically told him that she really was into him, and her holding back had nothing to do with not wanting him, I think he felt more like it was OK for him to initiate something, so he did. Also, Hook-kissing kind of makes me swoon, so as far as I'm concerned, they can throw in all the kissing they want, superfluous or not.

[MDKNIGHT]

Regina and Robin bring new demensions to the term "Over my dead body." That was just embarassing for all involved.  You NEVER talk in front of a coma patient and you certainly shouldn't talk in front of a person under a spell.  You know poor Marion is going to remember and be crushed when she comes out of the spell.

 

On the bright side for people who like Regina her knew plan does seem a tad less evil than murdering Marion.  Sure I suspect her plan for making the book writer change things will involve torture but I'm guessing it actually won't come down to that, or Henry will be able to talk her down.  She's kind of on a roll, what with not letting Marshmallow kill Marion and not "tripping" while holding Marion's heart.  She's almost approaching the shadow of the echo of a normal human being, which is progress for her.  I still think her shining moment was when she had Snow's heart in her hand and didn't biff splitting it to give half to Charming.  I mean she even said she wasn't sure it would work so if it, "oops", hadn't worked who would know?  So if she resists having something befall Marion's heart now and considers her next move when she catches up with the book writer and that goes wrong, she might be redeemable yet. 

 

Rumple on the other hand makes me want to slap him everytime he fools DumBelle with the Dagger schtick.  Seriously if Rumple caved to such flimsy evidence as Hook threatened him with,  it must be obvious to even him what a house of cards he's building. 

 

Man the Disney lawyers must be awesome.  They've made sure OUAT treats thier Frozen characters juuuuust right.  Elsa is in NO WAY a villain (bad for the franchise) and yet not so goody two shoes as to be boring. (I cracked up when she asked Snow Queen if she'd ever brought a snowman to life because that's the best.)  Elizabeth Mitchell is doing a bang up job too. 

 

I do however get the giggles when they present me with evidence that somehow casting believes that evil and the gene for huge cleavage run together.  Don't get me wrong I love Regina and Snow Queen's outfits but boy is it obvious what the show wants to acentuate.  And I've mentioned it before in relationship to Regina but now with the Snow Queen it applies to her also....either wielders of magic automatically get a bunch of other skills or they all employ gay men to dress and make them up.  No normal woman could put themselves that together without talented help.

[stealinghome]

That said, if they're going to go the Regina-Robin direction, they'll presumably have to either provide an alternate True Love for Marian or somehow make her a villain.

I'm pretty sure they're just going to fridge her. They're 3/4 of the way there already!

[brisbydog]

 

So Robin is apparently in love with the woman who tried to brutally murder his wife. Wow, writers. Just wow. You're really going with that? And I thought the BBC version (in which Robin allies himself with the man who DID brutally murder his wife) couldn't be topped.

 

Well..Guy didn't MEAN to kill Marian and felt bad about it. Plus he was Richard Armitage so I forgave him anything. This Robin not so much. He's a thoughtless tool.

 

 

Frankly, everyone including the Charmings should have a huge problem with Belle carrying it around in her purse.  Based on past experience, what is worse... Rumpel having his dagger or someone like Zelina getting control of it?

 

THIS so much. If Belle really thinks her purse is the best spot for the Dark One's dagger it would be insanity for Rumple to let her have the real thing. Snow Queen would have had her hands on it by now; not that hard to snatch Belle's purse.

[Shanna Marie]

The way they walked away from DQ was really ridiculous though.  Between the cellphone noises and the talking and the let's just walk away slowly while making noise was just so ugh...

Yeah, that was pretty hilariously awful. They'd actually made some attempt to make Hook look somewhat reasonable about it, with him taking the time to mark the trail so they could preserve the track the magic snowflakes followed (and maybe so Emma could find them), calling for backup rather than engaging, holding Elsa back from engaging, and then retreating to get Emma, and then they just stand up and walk away while talking, not even trying to be stealthy (RIP, Stealthy).

 

By the way, seeing "DQ" over and over again is making me hungry. I can practically taste the sundae. I may be going out for lunch one day this week.

 

Speaking of ice cream ...

She gave Marian something that looked like vanilla.  I thought it sucked given Regina's comment about the woman to Sydney.  Really?  I got it show, Marian = boring and not memorable.  No need to harp on it!

And the funny thing is, I think the Marian actress is doing a good job with what she's been given. The writers aren't even trying to write a character for her, but she's giving it her all and even seems to be going a little off the page. Like, she even bothered to react to her first taste of ice cream as though it was her first taste of ice cream, and I thought the way she insisted that she was fine after the attack by the snow monster was rather funny. It would be interesting to see what she'd do if they bothered writing a character and story for her instead of fridging her (literally).

 

I must say that I'm really liking this Elsa. I was more Team Anna in the movie (yeah, I know it's not a competition, but Anna was the character I liked and related to), but I like this take on Elsa. She manages to be regal and snarky at the same time and has this interesting mix of iciness and warmth. So far, I've liked her interactions with every character she's been up against -- Kristoff in the past and both Hook and Emma in the present.

[stealinghome]

And the funny thing is, I think the Marian actress is doing a good job with what she's been given. The writers aren't even trying to write a character for her, but she's giving it her all and even seems to be going a little off the page. ... It would be interesting to see what she'd do if they bothered writing a character and story for her instead of fridging her (literally).

This! Once has cast some truly horrifically bad guest actors in the past (looking at YOU, Cinderella and Prince), but I like the Marian actress thus far. I wouldn't mind her sticking around Granny or Grumpy-style. In fact, I'd much rather have her around than Robin.

[KAOS Agent]

Also between this board and many others, society needs a wake-up call on what a post pregnancy body looks like, especially that of a nursing mother.

 

I really like that Ginny seems to be losing weight like a normal person and isn't on some crazy Hollywood crash diet. I remember reading once about some actress who was doing 100 sit-ups in the hospital after giving birth to twins and it made me kind of sick. I will also say that I thought Ginny's face looked less full this episode than in "White Out", so it's definitely starting to come off. Now if the wardrobe department would just help her out a bit and put her in a cute, younger looking outfit - maybe a long tunic with leggings or something? - we could all see that post-pregnancy women can look fabulous even when still carrying a bit of the baby weight. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[brisbydog]

I hate that the show is clearly wanting us to want Robin and Regina together and not care about his wife, who was executed in one timeline for defending Snow's life, and now is considered excess baggage to Outlaw Queen. I don't get why they could not have made a love interest for Regina who was not half of a legendary centuries old story.

[kili]

If Belle really thinks her purse is the best spot for the Dark One's dagger it would be insanity for Rumple to let her have the real thing.

 

She doesn't. Belle begged Rumple to help her to find some other place secure to keep it and he refused. He then took the dagger and stuffed it back into her purse. She's doing the best she can. It's Rumple who thinks it's a good idea to keep it in a purse which is probably the number one reason why Hook knows it isn't real. No way would he feel comfortable leaving it on a non-magical person even if he trusted that person. Any common thief who wanted it could easily steal it and magical beings would have even less trouble. And once you have it, you don't even have to worry about Rumple coming and kicking your a$$. You just have to order him not to do that.

 

Rumple knows that the dagger needs to be powerfully protected (look how easily he took it from the Duke) and that actually giving the dagger to Belle paints a big target on her back. Hook probably realizes that as well. Regina normally would too. Snow would never suspect it.

[Camera One]

Low blow for Snow, LOL... and she wasn't even in that scene.  

 

I think Rumple should be too smart to make it so obvious.  Let's say he trusted the other characters (Emma, Hook, Charming) that they wouldn't steal from Belle.  But Elsa was standing right there, a stranger with magical powers.  He still asked for the dagger twice, once in the shop and also in the deleted scene when they were in the barn.

[Camera One]

So was the Snow Queen's motivation to get the town riled against Elsa so they would kill her, or was her goal to get Elsa to think the town was against her, so Elsa would be open to the Snow Queen's persuasion?

 

If the Snow Queen wanted to get Elsa on her team and think the town was the enemy, she should have worked on Elsa in Episode 1 or even Episode 2.  She could have found Elsa among the Ice Wall and talked to her before Emma got there.  It would have been easy to convince Elsa that the townspeople were evil, since she already had that impression.  The Snow Queen would have known Elsa was in town the moment the Snow Monster appeared, or even before that with the ice trail.  

Edited October 15, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

So was the Snow Queen's motivation to get the town riled against Elsa so they would kill her, or was her goal to get Elsa to think the town was against her, so Elsa would be open to the Snow Queen's persuasion?

It's probably too soon to tell, but I'd say the latter. She didn't know where Elsa was in 4x01, and no one but Emma/Hook/Charming/MM knew about the ice wall until 4x03. She was probably just waiting for the right moment. I think it's all part of her manipulation to get Elsa to believe her "Non-magical people eventually don't trust magical people!" mantra.

Edited October 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

She didn't know where Elsa was in 4x01, and no one but Emma/Hook/Charming/MM knew about the ice wall until 4x03. 

 

I assumed the Snow Queen did know, though, by the end of 4x02.  Since Elsa tried to take down the wall, but someone else's magic was keeping it frozen.  I'm assuming that was an intentional thing from the Snow Queen.  And if she's as cunning as she (and all villains) are supposed to be, she would have reacted immediately in 4x01 once she heard about the Snow Monster.  We'll know more I'm sure, but if she's as powerful as she seems, surely, she knows how to find/track Elsa in a magical way?

[KingOfHearts]

 

I assumed the Snow Queen did know, though, by the end of 4x02.  Since Elsa tried to take down the wall, but someone else's magic was keeping it frozen.

It's entirely possible she knew where she was, however I don't think she needed her location to keep the ice wall frozen. The timeframe between 4x01 and 4x02 was extremely tight - so tight that they share a scene. Snow Queen might have been waiting for her to connect with someone first in order to make the distrust hurt more. Elsa was cold at first when she arrived to town, but softened after she befriended Emma. If SQ had acted while she was abrasive to Storybrooke, it wouldn't have mattered as much to her if she was framed. She was ready for the fact she'd freeze everyone at that time, anyway.

Edited October 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

If the Snow Queen wanted to get Elsa on her team and think the town was the enemy, she should have worked on Elsa in Episode 1 or even Episode 2.

 

I think the DQ was mainly banking on the end result with Elsa.  She clearly knew she was in town, they have the same powers or similar.  If DQ had left her long enough to her own devices, being terrified and her powers being out of control and then swooped in to save her.  I think DQ just wanted things to get really bad for Elsa, that's the only reason she cursed Marian and tried to impale Hook.  She was out to prove a point.

 

And whoever compared her to Magneto...very inspired and so true.  I had flashes of Harry Potter and the whole "Magic is Might" moto of the death eaters, but Magneto is so much more on point.

[Donny Ketchum]

Wait.  Ginnifer and Josh are together in real life?  And they have a kid together?  Am I reading that right?

[kili]

Wait.  Ginnifer and Josh are together in real life?  And they have a kid together?  Am I reading that right?

 

Yes. They got married and had a baby during the filming hiatus. Ginnifer was really pregnant last season.

[2deadcows]

I thought it was interesting that we've seen Emma concentrate for the longest time when wanting to use her magic and that today it was just one blast to the Snow Queen and then blasting both Hook and David out of harm's way.  That was a really interesting turnabout.

 

Emma's been training with Regina.  Who knows how regularly (probably not very, and almost completely off-screen as with most fun things on this show) but I remember at least one during the Neverland arc and then that awesome one with the bridge scene during the Wicked arc.  During the bridge scene, Regina noted that Emma's magic was instinctual and that Emma needed to "push those instincts until [she] mastered them."  Afterwards, in order to guide Emma in using her magic to 'Skype' Ariel and Prince Eric, Regina noted that Emma had earlier "learned to focus and let emotions awaken [her] power, and now [she] had to look inward."  So ONCE is showing Emma as steadily improving her magic.  It's also worth reiterating that Emma's abilty to 'use mirror magic' to look between worlds is something that Regina can't do, but Regina thought that Emma could because of the "raw power she possesses."  So who knows what else the writers have in store for Emma?  Which could be interesting.   I don't know.  I don't like the writers' all or nothing approach to magic on this show.  At one time Regina was the all powerful.  Then it was the Dark One.  Then when Cora came around even Rumple was afraid of her.  Then Wicked arrived and Regina's magic was useless until its the last-minute plot-convenient color change.  There's no balance on this show.

 

Well, Marian's officially on ice, or is ice?  Way to wait until the last possible second, Regina.

 

On first watch, I had the impression that Regina almost immediately realized that she'd have to remove Marian's heart but was hesitant to suggest it for fear of everyone's reaction (and in hopes that a cure could be found through others' efforts).  Putting myself in her shoes, I think I'd be hesitant to suggest doing such a thing in anticipation of what kind of shit-fit reactions I'd get as a former stealer of hearts.  But on re-watch, in that first scene when Regina joined everyone in the Mayor's office she noted that they were dealing with strong magic and that she could "maybe" slow it down. After Robin's TLK attempt failed, Regina said she needed more time to study Marian/the curse.  And then in the next FrozenMarian scene, Regina says that "the curse is working its way towards her heart...once it touches, that's it."  Then Robin begs her to do something and Regina gets this LOOK on her face and then HEAVY SIGH.  Like, "please don't force me to suggest that the best thing for my rival is for me to rip her heart out of her chest because I know how that will look."  So then we know she's figured out what to do between the first and second scene.  That in the interim she hasn't been able to slow down the curse and no one has burst into the office offering a cure and the only thing left to do is rip Marian's heart out.  Given how wonky time passage is on this show, who knows how much time actually passed?  It seemed darker in the office (even though you can see light through the windows), but it was day time during the other immediate scenes (Emma/Charming/Snow Queen/Hook in the forest and Snow/Archie in the street).  But then in the scene after the heart-taking, it's nighttime at Granny's patio.

 

The book only reported what HAPPENED, not what some third party told it

Yeah, I don't get Regina's logic. The only reason Emma and Hook ended up in the book was because they went to the past. How will talking to the writer change what has already happened?

 

 

 

 

Regina's not trying to change the past.  Here's what she told Henry: 

"These stories about me in the book...I was written as a villain.  And things never work out for the villains, so I want to find who wrote this book and make them...ask them... to write me a happy ending."

 

And yeah, thanks to those who mentioned Snow's hideous bird painting.  It was so perfectly Mary Margaret style (with a big Snow White shoutout) and so hideously out-of-place.  Regina's office may require some color, but that's not the dollop it needs.

 

Why are Enchanted Forest and Arendelle folk speaking like Americans from the 21st century? The writers at least paid lip service to old timey/Shakespearean-speak in the first season. 

 

So far, this season has been a big miss for me, with too much screen time devoted to Frozen characters while core ONCE cast members who are the reason this show exists beyond Season 1 are reduced to bit players.  Again, there's no balance on this show.  Quality-wise, if I had been presented with this in the first season, there's no way I would have stuck around.   But I did watch Season 1 and I did fall in love with the core characters and unique storytelling and gorgeous costuming.  I still find parts that I like and even smaller bits that I love, but I have to ff through a lot of horrible, cringe inducing junk to get it, and despite all reason I do still have hope that this crappy show will find its way back. 

 

Wither thou, Season 1 writers?

[KingOfHearts]

Did anyone else find Regina pushing her arm through the ice to rip Marian's heart out just a little weird? It's not that I find the mechanic improbable necessarily, but it just looked a little funny onscreen.

[KAOS Agent]

Regina's not trying to change the past.  Here's what she told Henry:

"These stories about me in the book...I was written as a villain.  And things never work out for the villains, so I want to find who wrote this book and make them...ask them... to write me a happy ending."

 

Right and then Henry says, "We have to change the book because it's wrong about you." Which, no it isn't. It's a historical record of what happened. Henry wants to change the book. In order to do that, one would have to change the past. No one's happy ending was written into the book. It ended with Snow & Charming putting Emma in the wardrobe and everyone being cursed. That's not a happy ending for anyone. When Emma started bringing back the happy endings, it was because people worked for it themselves. These stories' endings aren't in the book. The future hasn't been written. This is exactly what August tells Emma when she asked why he didn't finish his own story when he added it. So either the writers have no idea what they've done in the past or they're writing Regina as delusional and Henry as the dumbest person ever. And if Regina goes back and changes the book, there's a damn good chance that Henry will never be born, so A+ planning there for Team Regal Believer.

Edited October 16, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Aliasscape]

On first watch, I had the impression that Regina almost immediately realized that she'd have to remove Marian's heart but was hesitant to suggest it for fear of everyone's reaction (and in hopes that a cure could be found through others' efforts).  Putting myself in her shoes, I think I'd be hesitant to suggest doing such a thing in anticipation of what kind of shit-fit reactions I'd get as a former stealer of hearts.  But on re-watch, in that first scene when Regina joined everyone in the Mayor's office she noted that they were dealing with strong magic and that she could "maybe" slow it down. After Robin's TLK attempt failed, Regina said she needed more time to study Marian/the curse.  And then in the next FrozenMarian scene, Regina says that "the curse is working its way towards her heart...once it touches, that's it."  Then Robin begs her to do something and Regina gets this LOOK on her face and then HEAVY SIGH.  Like, "please don't force me to suggest that the best thing for my rival is for me to rip her heart out of her chest because I know how that will look."  So then we know she's figured out what to do between the first and second scene.  That in the interim she hasn't been able to slow down the curse and no one has burst into the office offering a cure and the only thing left to do is rip Marian's heart out.  Given how wonky time passage is on this show, who knows how much time actually passed?  It seemed darker in the office (even though you can see light through the windows), but it was day time during the other immediate scenes (Emma/Charming/Snow Queen/Hook in the forest and Snow/Archie in the street).  But then in the scene after the heart-taking, it's nighttime at Granny's patio.

 

 

I think the real time is irrelevant. What's stupid is that Marian was not solid ice when she thought of taking the heart and then she waits until she is to actually do it. There is no magical reason presented so far on this show would require having a box nearby to remove a heart. She even had to examine the heart by that point to see if it wasn't covered in ice already. She truly did wait until the last possible second and long after she'd have to do way more damage than it would usually require to remove a heart.

 

We know Emma's spent almost zero time with Regina in a week. I'm actually quite certain Emma and Regina have not been training more off screen.  Emma was shown able to practice teleporting teacups with Regina no where near so I think any magic studying Emma's been on her own for since the ep with lessons. Emma's power has almost always been only accessible to save the lives of others. She just can't seem to get her emotions going otherwise and when you think about the self-worth problems she has in common with Elsa, it makes some sense.

 

This show is absolutely horrible with magic mythology of course. They always show people with one great power, that they never use again when it'd actually be helpful.

[2deadcows]

Here's how I see it.  At this show's most basic premise, a happy ending is when you find your true love.  It may also be defined by the triumph of Good over Evil.  The basic story and happy ending of Snow White and Prince Charming, pre-ONCE, is when Charming awakens Snow with a kiss.  The kiss also serves as a victory over the Evil Queen's curse of Snow White...so that happy ending may also be seen as a victory of good over evil.  

 

With regard to the storybook, I think we're being led to believe that the writer of the book does have some actual power over what happens to the fates of the people being written about.  I personally don't feel this absolves the storybook characters of the consequences of their actions, but I do allow for nuance and gray areas, and, more importantly, the chance for people to change for the better.  I don't think the writer is a puppet master controlling every action of every character at all times, and I think Regina would agree with me.  I think Regina believes that the author of the storybook (and the morals and mores of the Enchanted Forest) do not allow for bad/evil characters to be good.  That once a path is laid... once a villain, always a villain no matter what positive changes one makes in his or her life, no matter what manner of restitution one makes, that person can never attain happiness.  So in Regina's case, despite changing enough to earn the gift of light magic and a second (or third, since she bailed the first time with Robin) chance at a Soul Mate/True Love, she has just seen her last chance of happiness dry up before her eyes.  She truly believes Robin was her last chance.  In the language of the Enchanted Forest, there is no chance of love in her future.   And the lesson of 'villains don't get happy endings' has always and keeps getting drummed into her (ONCE has stressed this time and time again).  So the only way to change her fate is is to change the storybook; to find the author and change the ending.

 

ETA:

We know Emma's spent almost zero time with Regina in a week. I'm actually quite certain Emma and Regina have not been training more off screen.  Emma was shown able to practice teleporting teacups with Regina no where near so I think any magic studying Emma's been on her own for since the ep with lessons. Emma's power has almost always been only accessible to save the lives of others. She just can't seem to get her emotions going otherwise and when you think about the self-worth problems she has in common with Elsa, it makes some sense

 

 

I think it's pretty clear that Emma and Regina aren't exactly besties at the moment and so any magical sessions would be suspended at this time. :)  What I hoped to infer earlier was that, yes, as you and others have noted, Emma has struggled with her magic and we've mostly seen her do it and succeed while under emotional duress.  However, the show actually addressed this for once (yay!  Also, pun!) and so we've seen Emma train with Regina and specifically seen Regina advise Emma how to focus and hone those emotions so that Emma could reliably use her magic.  Emma's not there yet, but she obviously takes a lot of what Regina says to heart, so I believe Emma absorbed Regina's magic tutorials and expanded upon it during her solo (also off-screen) practice sessions in between crises and we may have just seen the fruits of her labor in Sunday's episode.  Or maybe it was just another burst of over-emotional magic.  But I prefer to think of this as progress.  More shame me, I guess.  

 

I think the real time is irrelevant. What's stupid is that Marian was not solid ice when she thought of taking the heart and then she waits until she is to actually do it. There is no magical reason presented so far on this show would require having a box nearby to remove a heart. 

 

 

I think the show is way too inconsistent about magic to get too deep into this conversation (about magic, heh).  However, I'm not discounting possible reasons (aside from increasing the drama) for the gold box.  When I think about all of the hearts that have been taken from characters...something special has been done to those people that the writers could argue would preclude the need for a special golden box.  Regina put a protection spell on her own heart before removing it. (Cora was a witch, so hers was probably protected but her box was probably platinum.) Henry's heart is protected too.  Aurora and Snow survived sleeping curses and were revived with TLK, so maybe their hearts are somehow inured to whatever storage container befalls them.  Marian is just a regular heretofore healthy uncursed person who was/is now suffering under a freezing curse.  Maybe the gold box stabilizes the heart in some way?  I don't know.  I gave up on rationalizing the magic stuff when the show did in the Season 2 (or was it the Season 1 fairybacks?).

Edited October 16, 2014 by 2deadcows

[KAOS Agent]

 

At this show's most basic premise, a happy ending is when you find your true love.  It may also be defined by the triumph of Good over Evil.  The basic story and happy ending of Snow White and Prince Charming, pre-ONCE, is when Charming awakens Snow with a kiss.  The kiss also serves as a victory over the Evil Queen's curse of Snow White...so that happy ending may also be seen as a victory of good over evil.

 

Well then Regina already had her happy ending since she has true love with Henry. And they defeated the curse by using True Love's Kiss. And they all lived happily ever after. The End. But obviously doesn't work that way or we'd be done with the show. Regina stole everyone's happy ending with her curse in the original story book. Snow & Charming did not live happily ever after when they kissed and broke the sleeping curse. They lost their daughter, were separated from each other for almost 30 years and had no memory of each other when they did finally meet again. 

[2deadcows]

Well then Regina already had her happy ending since she has true love with Henry. And they defeated the curse by using True Love's Kiss.

 

 

The same can be said about Emma.   Literally.  Why be greedy, isn't Henry enough?  Of course not, because adults want and need adult relationships.

 

I've been around parents who live for and through their children and those are people I don't like to spend a lot of time around.  With Regina, we've seen her call Henry her happy ending and then in Neverland she told Emma that Henry was all that she had (while Emma had her suitors and her parents).  So I think it shows positive emotional growth for Regina to reach for (and recognize) happiness beyond Henry.  I just wish the writers hadn't decided on Robin Hood as her Romantic End Game and that magic/pixie dust had not been a factor because that makes self determination suspect, but whatever.  Same with Emma.  She's moved on from Neal's betrayal and is dealing with her issues and is finally ready to try a relationship.  Maybe it will work with Hook, maybe not, but she's growing too.  If the writers handle Emma correctly she should be the most interesting,  because her connections are many and would seemingly be the most dynamic...Henry, her parents, now Hook, and whatever her relationship was with the Snow Queen and how that realization may affect her going forward.  

Edited October 16, 2014 by 2deadcows

[Mari]

So I think it shows positive emotional growth for Regina to reach for (and recognize) happiness beyond Henry.

Not very much when it means she's still willing to take away other people's happy endings to do it--which is what Operation Mongoose implies--or use her own child to do it, which she is also doing.

[Dani-Ellie]

And even the name "Operation Mongoose" is so ridiculously petty that I can't stand it. Emma and Henry had Operation Cobra, and four seconds after Henry confirmed that, Regina picks the name of an animal known for fighting and killing cobras? Seriously? Learn to freakin' share, Regina. Not everything has to be a contest.

[kili]

The same can be said about Emma. Literally. Why be greedy, isn't Henry enough? Of course not, because adults want and need adult relationships.

 

That is why people are saying that the book doesn't write happy endings. Sure, Snow and Charming had a True Love's Kiss and momentarily won that specific battle with Regina. but life didn't stop there. Just as adults want and need adult relationships, many of them (certainly Snow and Charming) need to have a parent/child relationship. Their happy ending was destroyed because not only were they forcibly separated from each other, but they also lost their child. They'll never get back the opportunity to raise their daughter and their daughter was raised under horrible conditions.

 

So, how can Regina argue that the book gives good people happy endings, but denies them for the villains? That makes no sense. The good people had happy events, but they did not live happily ever after. Regina too had happy events. She got to be Queen. She got to kill King Leo. She got to execute Snow (or so she thought). All these things made her very happy, temporarily. And the biggest happy event for her, the event which ended the book, was her achieving her goal, casting the curse and destroying Snow's happiness. She has gone on to adopt a child who causes her to feel no regret for her past actions and to whom she gave a True Love's Kiss.

 

If Snow and Charming are happier than Regina, it is because they are able to focus on the positive parts of their lives and not wallow in the bad. Regina is a wallower. Zelena had a point when she said that Regina cannot appreciate all that she has (although, Zelena was too dismissive of the bad things that did happen to Regina). Snow has had far more tragedy in her life than Regina, but she is believed to have a happy ending because she is happy.

 

Regina is never going to find her happy ending until she can focus on the positive parts. Having Henry and Robin will not delete that she lost Danielle or that she chose to murder her beloved father. As long as she wallows in the bad things, she's going to want more and more to be happy. For instance, she wallowed for a year in depression because she lost Henry - she went on and on about how she can't live without him - but when she gets him back, he is not enough. In less than 48 hours of her getting him back, she won't even talk to him because she is too busy wallowing.

 

If the book's author writes Regina a happy ending, it will soon be a dismissed happy event.

 

Meanwhile, Henry is so wrong about the book being wrong about Regina. It would appear that the book hasn't even included all the bad things she's done. To get the author to change what the book reports about Regina would simply be whitewashing.

[darkestboy]

Loved this episode, really did.

The Snow Queen knows Emma and has also history with Rumple? Of course she does. Don't mind her being Elsa's aunt though.

Speaking of Elsa - love her friendships with both Kristoff and Hook in this one as well. Great scenes all round.

Hans and his brothers are idiots. That is all that needs saying on them.

Hated the mob mentality of the townsfolk this week.

Robin loves Regin after all. How will Marian get cured then?

Love that Will Scarlett has been added into the mix. I assume we'll see Anastasia at some point, right? 9/10

[legaleagle53]

Yes. They got married and had a baby during the filming hiatus. Ginnifer was really pregnant last season.

 

Which the viewers had already figured out long before it was officially announced, as she was as big as a house.

[Joanh23]

"I hate that the show is clearly wanting us to want Robin and Regina together and not care about his wife, who was executed in one timeline for defending Snow's life, and now is considered excess baggage to Outlaw Queen"

 

This is my biggest issue with bringing Marian back the way they did - what was the point in showing that Regina killed Marian in the past if we're not going to see Robin react to it when he finds out!   It has the potential to be a really good story line but instead it just makes me really mad when it's completely glossed over..  

 

I loved all the Emma/Charming & Emma/Hook scenes - I am very excited to find out how Emma and the Snow Queen are connected, the way Elizabeth Mitchell played it I really think she was surprised to see Emma in the forest and I don't think she knew Emma was in Storybrooke - which makes me wonder if Rumple brought her to Storybrooke for some reason - they definitely know each other and I feel like Rumple is being more like S1 Rumple i.e. before he knew Belle was alive and his focus was on finding Bae.   

[Donny Ketchum]

Yes. They got married and had a baby during the filming hiatus. Ginnifer was really pregnant last season.

Yeah, I knew Ginnifer was pregnant last season.  Just not that Josh was the father.  Interesting to know.

[SnarkyTart]

They should just do an episode of Will, Hook and Kristoff. Comedy gold.

Yes, this please.  Can we just make Will, Hook and Kristoff into the Three Musketeers and let them have their own storyline?  They would be perfect!

[HoodlumSheep]

Loved this episode, really did.

Speaking of Elsa - love her friendships with both Kristoff and Hook in this one as well. Great scenes all round.

Hated the mob mentality of the townsfolk this week.

Love that Will Scarlett has been added into the mix. I assume we'll see Anastasia at some point, right? 9/10

Agree with these points. If Anastasia is going to make an appearance, it will most likely be in 4b, unless they decide to surprise us. I want Regina to meet Anastasia; she could learn a thing or two from her.

Love the Rumple/Hook dynamic. Poor Marian. I liked her.

Those townsfolk :( at least Archie is trying to resist being sucked into the mob. Where has Pongo vanished to?

[Donny Ketchum]

Oh Hans, if only there was somebody who loved you.

That was a reference to when he said it to Anna, right?

[KingOfHearts]

 

That was a reference to when he said it to Anna, right?

Yes.

 

Hans: "Oh Anna, If only there was someone out there who loved you."

 

It was a scene where Anna needed a True Love's Kiss from Hans, but it turns out that Hans did not love Anna and had been tricking her the entire time.

Edited November 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Donny Ketchum]

Yes.

 

Hans: "Oh Anna, If only there was someone out there who loved you."

 

It was a scene where Anna needed a True Love's Kiss from Hans, but it turns out that Hans did not love Anna and had been tricking her the entire time.

I know.  I saw the movie, like, days before the season started and saw that scene.  Just wanted to make sure, so thanks, KingOfHearts.

[Zuleikha]

And the lesson of 'villains don't get happy endings' has always and keeps getting drummed into her (ONCE has stressed this time and time again).  So the only way to change her fate is is to change the storybook; to find the author and change the ending.

 

That was how I started my path towards Regina standom. I can't remember whether it was the first or second episode, but when Regina gathered all of the villains together in her initial attempt to cast the curse (prior to taking her father's heart), she said something about how it was a chance for all of the villains to have their happy ending. I found that line so powerful. It framed Regina's choices for me as being about a struggle to find free will in a predestined world, and I do think that's the core of Regina's character and story arc.

 

So I don't find anything inconsistent about Regina and Henry's quest to find the author. To Regina, losing Robin indicates that despite all of her changes and heroic actions, she's still cast as the Evil Queen in the Book of Fate. That's how I understood Henry's statement that the book is wrong about her... that the Author/book needs to catch up to her role as a protagonist in future stories. I don't think either Regina or Henry intended to affect the past stories. I like that Regina's having this reaction because it gives her an active response to the Robin/Marian relationship that doesn't need to be about destroying Marian. I like that Henry is supporting her in this because I think it's sweet and very in character.

 

The problem remains, though, what to do about Robin and Marian in the storyline? Robin's confession to Regina over Marian's frozen body was justified by the urgency of the circumstances and the need to admit that he was never going to be able to uncurse Marian, but he's going to look increasingly douchey if the show keeps throwing him and Regina together while Marian's on ice. I really hope he gets brought into the Emma/Elsa/Snow Queen storyline, so he has something to do that keeps him out of Regina's orbit and develops him more as a character in his own right. Maybe when Marian's (presumably) unfrozen, she and Robin can have a mature conversation about the awkwardness of the relationship and decide to do a trial separation.

[KingOfHearts]

 

So I don't find anything inconsistent about Regina and Henry's quest to find the author. To Regina, losing Robin indicates that despite all of her changes and heroic actions, she's still cast as the Evil Queen in the Book of Fate.

Replying in Regina thread.

[Shanna Marie]

To Regina, losing Robin indicates that despite all of her changes and heroic actions, she's still cast as the Evil Queen in the Book of Fate.

The problem with that is that losing her boyfriend of a couple of days doesn't really qualify as an "Evil Queen" ending. It's actually more of a hero ending, since the heroes are the ones who are supposed to make sacrifices for the happiness of others. A hero wouldn't want to be with a man who turned out to only be available because she'd imprisoned/executed (depending on the timeline) his wife. If Regina really was as reformed as she seems to think she is, she'd feel like she dodged a bullet because Marian is alive and that took one thing off her personal naughty list, then she'd move on with her life. She's not being punished. She's being kept from profiting from her past evil. The way it usually goes for heroes is that they do have to make sacrifices like that, and the reward comes afterward. If she's so focused on demanding her happy ending, she can't get a heroic ending because a hero would never demand it.

 

And, really, losing a guy after a couple of dates is minor compared to the bad things most of the heroes have gone through. That's why this concept doesn't compute for me. I've lost a lot of guys that early in a relationship, and I don't feel like I was being cosmically punished for being a bad person. It was life. That makes it hard to relate to Regina's perspective here. It should have taken something a lot more drastic to set off this idea of getting the book changed -- like something closer to a real villain ending, where she's lost everything, including her job, her mansion, her money, and everyone in town has turned against her.

[Camera One]

I think to Regina, it would be a big deal.  This was the first time in 35 years or so that she actually opened up her heart to love in a healthy way.  This was only the second time in her life, after Daniel.  I agree that if she were becoming a true hero, there would be full blame on herself with a conviction to make up for all she has done, rather than a knee-jerk blame towards Emma in the first episode of the season and an immediate (though aborted) scheme to get rid of Marion. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

like something closer to a real villain ending, where she's lost everything, including her job, her mansion, her money, and everyone in town has turned against her.

She already had that ending at the start of season 2 and throughout it, which she deserved as her comeuppance for the curse and general Evil Queen behavior. The end of 2B and all of S3 was all about her making concrete actions to change and move forward from that point. I know there is a lot of disagreement on this board about how successfully her repentance storyline was written, but her sacrifices are canon as is her finally making different choices throughout S3, culminating in forcing Rumple to give Zelena mercy. (not Regina's fault that dingbat Belle ruined that!)

And, really, losing a guy after a couple of dates is minor compared to the bad things most of the heroes have gone through.

I think that's an unfair summary of Robin/Regina's relationship and who Robin is in Regina's life. Robin's not just some man who Regina started dating. Robin is the Happy Ending she turned her back on years ago because she needed to face the pain of her grief in order to hope, and she didn't have the courage to do that. But with Snow's help, Regina made a different choice about how to handle her grief about the loss of Henry. She stopped hiding and sublimating pain and accepted it into her life, which directly led her to Robin (because if she'd buried her heart, she wouldn't have been able to give it to Robin). Robin isn't just the man she loves; he's also hope that happiness is possible.

That's why I think it's so healthy for Regina to come up with the Author quest. She is essentially moving on by looking for the Author. She is also not actively pursuing Robin and, after her initial impulse to reset the timeline, she has saved Marian's life when she easily could have chosen otherwise. She's preserving hope and a belief that her ending can be changed.

[Mari]

It might be canon that she's started to make different choices, but it's also canon that she's not accepted responsibility for the damage she's caused, she's made little to no attempt to make amends to the many, many people she's hurt, and she feels no remorse over it.  None of it. 

 

Is it good that she chose not to kill Marian?  Well, it's definitely an improvement over where she was only a year or so ago in-show time.  But what sticks out to me is :  “I was written as a villain.” That in and of itself is denying responsibility, and is pretty concrete evidence that any changes she's made are superficial.  It’s one thing to claim that Regina has changed, it’s a whole ‘nother thing to claim she was only written as a villain.  You kill villages, abuse children, and rape people, you’re not being “written” as a villain.  You were one.  

 

Does she want Robin?  Yes.  But it's difficult to see how having Robin will bring her any more lasting happiness than Henry did.  Regina almost never seems to find any satisfaction in what she has unless someone else wants it, too, or it's making someone else miserable in the  process.  

 

It's difficult to have any particular pity for the sufferings of a woman who's melodramatically gnashing her teeth and wailing over someone she actively disliked and was contemptuous of until she saw a tattoo that means "He's the one!"  Regina isn't in love with Robin.  She doesn't know Robin. She's spent a few hours with him and made out a couple of times.    That's not love.  That's maybe infatuation that could grow to love if a person is capable of it. 

 

Most of the characters on the show have lost more and suffered more than Regina.  I guess I don't see the Author plot as Regina healthily looking forward, so much as Regina yet again looking for someone not herself to blame for her problems, and for someone to give her happiness she won't actually accept because she is incapable of being satisfied with good things she already has.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Regina's happy ending was written when she cast the dark curse.  She took everyone's happiness and lived in a 28 year groundhog day where she realized she was bored.  She ripped her own heart out, wanted to put herself under a sleeping curse because she didn't have her son.  She got him back.  She TLKed him, she got him back which was supposed to be according to her her happy ending.

 

Regina = never happy with what she has.  

 

The woman does not know how to be happy and now she's chasing after the very illusive author to force him to write her a happy ending.  

 

One of the lines on this show was that happy endings are not always what we think they will be.

 

Regina has changed in the last year.  She has in many ways, she is making efforts.  But you shouldn't be good so that you can get something in return.  You just are.  Regina is a brat.

 

BTW, this was actually my favorite episode of 4A.  

Edited March 8, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[KAOS Agent]

"Operation Mongoose" says it all. How petty and disgusting is it to name this find the author plan after the thing which kills cobras. It's not a healthy attempt to move on, it's typical Regina blame casting and looking for a short cut to get what she wants. She wants Robin now. Considering he's a horrible person, karma! Take him, dear, I'm sure Marian would be glad to get rid of him.

 

But outside of Regina's crazy thinking, what the hell is a happy ending at all? Is it what Snow & David have? Because as far as I can tell, they continue to suffer the problems life throws at them. They will never get back the time with Emma and that relationship is strained. Their son was kidnapped two days ago. Snow is struggling with all kinds of things regarding her ability to let go of her child. Life is constantly changing. It doesn't end until we're dead. There are no happy endings in life because life goes on. It's unhealthy to not understand this. What brings happiness is finding the good in what we have and fighting to keep it. It is not running off to some other person and making them give us what we want.

 

As a last note, I don't even care about Regina's belief that it's all the author's fault. Whatever. But I do have serious problems with some author writing the book and making it happen because it implies no free will. If there's no free will, then why should I even care about anyone? Not to mention how it contradicts the Season 3 finale where the book was blank because Emma & Hook had changed things. The author would have just written something new, he wouldn't have needed Hook & Emma to "fix" things.

[Shanna Marie]

She already had that ending at the start of season 2 and throughout it, which she deserved as her comeuppance for the curse and general Evil Queen behavior.

Yes, so she should know what a "villain" ending is like and know that this isn't one. Her life is better than it was at that time.

 

And the more I think about it, the more Robin's wife's return looks to me like a sign that Regina is being treated like a hero in whatever grand story is taking place (and I don't just mean in a meta sense by the writers of this series) because it seems much more like a Hero thing. A hero wouldn't be allowed to benefit from a past wrong. She'd never be in the position of getting a man because she had something to do with his wife being missing in the first place. Emma bringing Marian back gave Regina a chance to move forward as a hero. It took one more death off Regina's tally and kept her from getting the husband of a woman she executed (which would be a very villain outcome). Regina's whining about not getting her happy ending, but who says she's at the "ending"? During the story, up until the end, the heroes suffer a great deal. They make sacrifices because doing the right thing is hard and it hurts. Cinderella has to work as a slave in her own home. Snow White is exiled from her home. Sleeping Beauty is put in a coma. The Goose Girl is forced to be a servant while her maid takes her place as princess. If you've got smooth sailing and everything seems to be going your way, you're probably a villain.

 

Regina is only at the start of her journey as a hero, so she's in the phase where she's bound to suffer and struggle. She'll be treated unfairly by villains, be presented with temptations that it will hurt to resist, she'll have to choose to do the right thing even though it hurts, and she won't prosper when she does the wrong thing, either.

 

Having something not go the way she wants does not mean she's being treated like a villain. However, in expecting to have everything, right now, and focusing her efforts on finding a short cut or a loophole to get what she wants, she's actually acting like a villain. It's villain behavior to want it all and to want the quick and easy way rather than making better choices, keeping her head high and moving on, the way a hero would do.

[Zuleikha]

It's villain behavior to want it all and to want the quick and easy way rather than making better choices, keeping her head high and moving on, the way a hero would do.

 

What do you think Regina should be doing differently that would be keeping her head high and moving on. She's actively working to unfreeze Marian, even though she expects Robin to stay with Marian. She made the heroic choice to save Marian when she could have let the Snow Monster kill her and to take Marian's heart rather than let the ice curse get her. She also hasn't done anything active to persuade Robin to leave Marian for her, even when Robin gave her a strong opening with his confession about why true love's kiss failed.  Instead, Regina's starting a quest to get new choices for herself. That seems like moving on to me, and it's only as quick and easy as the particular quest turns out to be.