S04.E03: Rocky Road

[TigerLynx]

I loved Hook and Emma, Emma/David, and Hook/cell phone – that was hilarious, and Sven.  I want a Sven.

 

Color me shocked I like Elsa and the Snow/Dairy Queen.  I was worried about this arc.

 

If Regina wants to write a different ending for herself, she might want to try doing things differently.

[Curio]

I had to chuckle at Emma's outburst at Hook, "Would you just listen to me for once?!" I'm honestly having a hard time figuring out when he doesn't listen to her (excluding this episode, I guess).

 

"Hook, snuff out that light." "Hook, wait here while I go fight my monkey boyfriend on the roof." "Hook, help with the suitcases." "Hook, look after Henry." "Hook, go to the mausoleum." "Hook, be patient." 

[Mari]

I just can't with Regina thinking that all her problems are related to the bad press she got from the book. I thought she'd learned her lesson in the one where she killed all villagers - people call her the Evil Queen because she was Evil. I can see saying she has changed, but she can't claim the book was wrong about her. That Henry can't see it is unbelievable. He griped about all the crap in her vault - what do you want to bet one of the things that took him all that time was finding a heart box that was empty? And he just sees that as PR problem? Belle/Robin/Henry need to to form a support group - stat.

 

Yes.  I can almost buy an unreformed Regina believing that it was all bad press, and that's how come she was considered "Evil".  But Henry?  Henry?  The comments he made at the end of 3A, about regretting bringing Emma to Storybrooke I wrote off as a kid speaking without thinking because he's upset almost everything--including his mother--he's familiar with going away.

 

But for Henry and Regina to seriously think that the only problem in Regina's background is that it was written badly?  That doesn't even make sense. 

 

I know there's the theory out there that Regina was only a mass murdering fiend because the book was written that way, and it made her do those things--but, if that's the case, why did half the book disappear during the time travel episode? And what about after she was in Storybrooke?  She raped, maimed, and killed in Storybrooke?  The book didn't include any of those scenes, and presumably full-free-will Regina was just fine continuing her swath of destruction.

 

The other thing I went a little screechy at was the Robin/Regina love confession.  It was over the top of his wife's motionless body.  It was the Enchanted Forest version of cheating on your wife in her hospital room, while she's in a coma, with the person who tried to kill her.  I don't see how anybody could see that as romantic, and not vile. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

This episode was close to Witch Hunt in so many ways.

* Both involve hunting down a secret villainess.

* Both have the townsfolk going after the wrong person.

* Both include a town meeting.

* Both end with a scene with Rumple and the villainess.

* Both have the villainess smile when she realizes everyone is off the trail.

* Both have Emma working with the suspect to hunt down the real perp. (Regina/Emma, Elsa/Emma)

* Both reveal a familial connection with the villainess in the past.

[FurryFury]

I really, really loved this episode. I guess reduced expectations helped a lot - I've almost stopped caring about Once and TV in general, now that I'm on my anime binge. Anyway...

 

- Snow Queen was great, as was Elizabeth Mitchell. I've actually always liked her (Juliet was my favorite female character during the later seasons of Lost, and I even enjoyed her in the horrible V reboot), and she fit in the ensemble seamlessly. I couldn't help but compare her introduction to Zelena's last season, and the contrast is stark. Zelena was hilariously over the top and hammy, but her connections to both Regina and Rumple were shallow and didn't make much sense. She felt like a brat, while Snow Queen (damn, show, give her a name already) has a very dramatically powerful connection to Elsa (a character most of us have grown to love very quickly), the freaking heroine of the show, Emma (the first villain to have one, even!), and, of course, Rumple (no surprise on that front!) Mitchell is also a much better actress than Mader, imo, although her material is much stronger, too.
The Snow Queen/Elsa dynamic also reminded me of Regina/Cora a bit, especially the whole manipulation stuff, Cora had done  exactly the same when she had faked Archie's death. Wonder if it is intentional or the writers are simply repeating themselves.

 

- Kristof. I kinda hated his character in "Frozen", to be honest, and I find myself perplexed why I like him on Once so much. I guess it's both the actor and that he only has scenes with Elsa, which is a much less clichéd and more interesting relationship than with Anna (which was rather trite in the movie). I have to say, I've noticed them having all kinds of inappropriate chemistry, and the writing sure didn't help. But I loved how they played off each other. Such a fun dynamic.

Elsa/Kristof and Elsa/Hook were obviously paralleled, but she didn't have nearly as much chemistry with Hook.

 

- I really liked the Snow/Archie scene, especially because I've already written off the "Snow dealing with having a new child with regards to Emma" thing (can't blame myself for it). It was so nice the show reminded us that no matter how fractured this relationship has become, Snow will always be Emma's mother. Too little too late? Quite possibly, but still, it was so nice to see that.

 

- Will! For some reason, I'm quite excited to see him in his full trickster glory. I'm really looking forward to him messing with the cast. It probably doesn't jive too well with the ending of Wonderland, but I've only seen, like, 2 episodes, so I don't give a damn. I just like the character.

 

- Hans was great, despite me thinking the actor looked to old in the BTS/promo shots. Nice to see him being knocked down a peg (hope that's it for him, though - too much stuff, too little time).

 

- Regina still bugs, though. Her first convo with Henry gave a bit of hope she'll eventually understand the whole finding the writer idea is stupid, because she's at fault for her problems, not the book, but I'm not even sure anymore. The Robin/Marian stuff was completely disgusting. I think, at this point, Robin is my most hated character of the show. Seriously, he's worse than Regina.

 

Overall, I've really enjoyed this episode (minus Regina scenes) and it has reinvigorated my interest in the show! Until the inevitable Outlaw Queen centric, of course :)

 

PS Also, nice to see Rumple away from Belle. I miss him a lot.

[InsertWordHere]

Regina does need to return the hearts. I mean seriously. She wants a happy ending? Then put a little work in. Do nice stuff without being a pain in the rear. Maybe apologize for a few things, take some responsibility, and try not using the son you adopted...that would be great.

I thought it was quite unsafe to have Henry go alone to the vault and get the box. This is the same vault that Regina told Emma not to touch anything in, presumably because the objects in it are quite dangerous.

[iMonrey]

In spite of my reservations about the Frozen storyline, it could go a long way towards fixing what I thought was the biggest flaw in that movie: they never explained why Elsa had these powers. Hopefully they'll manage to do that here. I thought the casting for Hans was spot-on - the actor really looked like the cartoon version of that character. And I loved finally having Michael Socha back on my screen. They have a lot of backstory to fill in to explain how he got here, since when they left him at the end of Wonderland, he'd been turned into a genie. 

 

Elizabeth Mitchell excels at being shady and warm and stoic all at the same time, the Snow Queen reminds of Juliet from Lost.

 

Here's the thing about Elizabeth Mitchell: she's got this enigmatic smile and doe-eyed stare that make her seem so mysterious and deep you're convinced there's something enormous going on in that brain of hers. The problem is, once you've seen her do this on two or three different shows, you start to get the impression that she's kind of a one-trick pony, and it's not so much that she's some great actress, it's just that's she's got this "look" nailed, or maybe it's just the way she looks, all the time. 

 

It really frustrates me that the writers of this show seem to think they've got to spring another villain on us just as soon as the previous one is defeated. They need to slow the heck down and let the characters catch their breath. I know villains are an inherent part of fairy tales, but FFS, it seems like we've spent the last three years watching everyone run around chasing after villains, running away from villains, and trying to figure out how to defeat the last villain du jour. 

 

I'm not saying they should never have another villain again, but they could have used the first half of this season to focus on Elsa's search for Anna and introduce Will, while allowing the Charming family to settle down and interact for more than the collective five minutes they get while they're out in the woods tracking the latest villain.

[Rumsy4]

I am a little confused by the deleted scene. Rumple's never used the Dagger to perform magic before, has he? And yet, in the season premiere, he took the dagger back from Belle to reveal the Fantasia Hat, and in the deleted scene, he asked for Dagger back so he could find out what the Urn was made of. Did he ask Belle the fake Dagger in the deleted scene merely for show? I assume there was another switcheroo, as Belle commanded him to speak the truth, and he clearly lied about not knowing Anna or Elsa (and he went along with Hook's blackmail). 

[Shanna Marie]

Hook: "I have no clue what we're up against, but let's go, just you and me, Elsa! This can't go badly at all!"

Actually, I don't think he was that stupid about all that. Once Hook and Elsa found the Snow Queen, he made a point of not engaging, just observing and reporting what he found to Emma, then waiting for backup. When backup didn't arrive, he decided to leave rather than engaging. Will may have pointed them to the ice cream shop, but if Hook hadn't tracked down the Snow Queen and then relayed her location to Emma, we'd have had Zelena, round two, with a couple more episodes of everyone running around, not knowing who the real threat was. In this situation, by trying to keep him safe, Emma was the one hamstringing the investigation.

 

I have to say, that deleted scene seems pretty critical, plot-wise, since it explains the urn and introduces the urn dust that likely will play a role at some point -- unless that's what was used by the Snow Queen to neutralize Elsa and they didn't seem to feel any need to explain how that worked, and now the dust is gone.

 

Liked that Emma was wielding magic left and right with ease, although that seems like kind of a big turnaround since she's usually shown having problems with it.

It seems like most of the time, she struggles with magic when she actually tries to use it. The one time I can recall when she was successful while straining at it was saving Henry from Zelena. Most of the time, it's almost like it's something subconscious, where she's not even trying to use magic and she just wants to help herself or someone she cares about -- like lighting the shadow trap when the Shadow was killing Hook, building that bridge to save herself or igniting the magic wand. In this case, I don't think there was a conscious thought process about using magic, just a panic that her dad and the guy she might be starting to love were in danger. It seems that if you need Emma to use her magic, you need to distract her.

 

The Snow Queen may have miscalculated about how terrible people would think it was if something happened to Hook because, yeah, most of the townspeople would probably buy tickets and bring popcorn to watch him die horribly rather than turning on Elsa. However, it would have been a good way to turn Elsa's closest allies against her, since Elsa's allies are the few people who would actually care that Hook died. If Emma and David hadn't shown up to see what was really happening and had just found a frozen Hook skewered by icicles after they knew Elsa was with him and if Will hadn't tipped them off about the ice cream shop, would they have continued to support Elsa, or would they have suspected her?

 

Hook pretty much has a target on his back now. He's pissed off Rumple (again) and is in the know about the dagger, and the Snow Queen has learned that he makes a pretty good hostage for Emma. If Rumple's smart, he'll let the Snow Queen take Hook out and be blamed for it, since he can't very well do anything to Hook without being the obvious suspect. But if Hook's harmed in some icy way, all of Rumple's problems are solved.

[ParadoxLost]

During the Fantasia hat scene, I took it as being an especially difficult magic because of the object involved so he needed the Dagger.  In the deleted scene, I assumed he didn't physically need the dagger to perform the magic but asked for the fake to convince everyone Belle had the real thing.

I have to say, that deleted scene seems pretty critical, plot-wise, since it explains the urn and introduces the urn dust that likely will play a role at some point -- unless that's what was used by the Snow Queen to neutralize Elsa and they didn't seem to feel any need to explain how that worked, and now the dust is gone.

 

I think its pretty clear that Snow Queen didn't't use the dust when she had the scene with Rumpel making it clear that she hasn't made any recent deals with him.

Edited October 13, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[retrograde]

That deleted scene contained some nice exposition on properties/rules of magic.  If it wasn't deleted because of time limitations, maybe the writers didn't want to be tied down to some clearly stated rules? 

I'm not sure they'd release it if it contradicted what we were going to see on screen (Adam declared on Twitter that all last week's deleted scenes were canon). Perhaps at the time they originally planned to have that dirt thing come up again later in the arc, but never ended up doing it. I mean, it was probably cut for time too, but if they plan on using that again, the audience has been denied a fairly important piece of exposition and foreshadowing. (Given the promo shots for this episode included Hook in the forest holding up that vial, perhaps his plan was going to include stopping the Snow Queen with the soil but they decided to cut that for time).

 

Meanwhile, why can't Regina just add to Henry's book like August did? Does she really need to find the writer?

[kili]

Did he ask Belle the fake Dagger in the deleted scene merely for show?

 

I kind of think it was the lynchpin that convinced Hook that the dagger was fake. He seemed suspicious in the shop, but when Rumple started going on about how a sprinkle of it could temporarily neutralize any magic, he gave himself away. Rumple's magic originates in the dagger. He used the dagger to pick up the stuff. Then, he does some magic to convert the stuff into a new form. Shouldn't the stuff have neutralized the power of the dagger? How is he doing magic with just the wave of his hand?

 

I also think the urn dust is Chekhov's Urn Dust. They must have changed their mind about some later plot point, because they seemed to have set that dust up for being relevant later. Now, it isn't relevant and the scene could be deleted and officially leaked.

[ParadoxLost]

Given that showing deleted scenes on GMA seems to be a thing now, I'm wondering if they were ever supposed to be part of the show.  Both this one and he Regina/Snow one are very heavy on the exposition and they don't really fit in the timeline. 

 

I came away from both wondering how it could be included because it was a different location and didn't particularly fit before, after, or during the shown screens.  When was snow going to go to Regina's? When did they decide to investigate the scene?

 

This week's deleted almost felt like it was an alternate scene rather than deleted because it duplicated the "proof" of Belle having the dagger and Rumpel's explanation of magic returning to Snow Queen.  I tend to think this scene wasn't working for them and they went back and added the two scenes in Gold's shop instead.

[Dani-Ellie]

Meanwhile, why can't Regina just add to Henry's book like August did? Does she really need to find the writer?

 

Because if I understand Regina's ridiculousness correctly, she thinks the author is some being who's doling out the happy endings by placing them in the book. It wouldn't be enough, then, for Regina to just add her own story to it, because she doesn't have the power to give herself the happy ending. (The irony being, I hope, that she does in fact have the power to give herself the happy ending but it has nothing to do with what's in the book, because in the end, she's responsible for her own happiness.)

[Rumsy4]

During the Fantasia hat scene, I took it as being an especially difficult magic because of the object involved so he needed the Dagger. In the deleted scene, I assumed he didn't physically need the dagger to perform the magic but asked for the fake to convince everyone Belle had the real thing.

ITA. The Barn scene definitely looked like a fake show put on by Rumple. That's also probably when Hook and Emma learnt about the "Dagger" being with Belle.

(Given the promo shots for this episode included Hook in the forest holding up that vial, perhaps his plan was going to include stopping the Snow Queen with the soil but they decided to cut that for time).

I think this makes the most sense. Hook is actually not dumb enough to go after magical villains without a weapon. He most likely got the urn dust from Rumple as part of the deal he made with him.

[KingOfHearts]

I find it a bit weird that the Snow Queen could neutralize Elsa's magic. It probably just has to do with ice magic, but still that seems a little overpowered. I doubt the deleted scene with the urn dust has anything to do with it, but the theme of neutralizing magic might be a possible foreshadowing. If the Snow Queen uses the dust later to neutralize someone, then it might be a bigger twist without the scene.

 

They got the barn set all setup and cast together just to shoot a scene they didn't use!

 

 

But for Henry and Regina to seriously think that the only problem in Regina's background is that it was written badly?  That doesn't even make sense.

Once again, Henry does something stupid. I'll add it to my list. ;)

 

 

The irony being, I hope, that she does in fact have the power to give herself the happy ending but it has nothing to do with what's in the book, because in the end, she's responsible for her own happiness.

 

I bet the author doesn't even know who Regina is... unless it was Queen Eva's mom trying to get revenge on Cora's mom by messing with her lineage. It could happen on this show!

Edited October 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

The irony being, I hope, that she does in fact have the power to give herself the happy ending but it has nothing to do with what's in the book, because in the end, she's responsible for her own happiness.

 

I'm hoping that when she does find the author of the book, it's Yoda and he says "Up to you to create your own happy ending, it is.  Hmmmmmm."

[iMonrey]

 

Meanwhile, why can't Regina just add to Henry's book like August did?

 

Is that what August did? I was never clear on what exactly he did with the book. We saw him hanging pages up like he was drying them or something, I've read some posts that indicate people thought he made a copy of the book, some seem to think he changed it somehow or added to it. Clearly, no one knows, and I think whatever they originally had in mind has been dropped and/or forgotten.

It actually makes the most sense that August/Pinocchio himself wrote the book, since he came from the Enchanted Forest himself and grew up in our world. Who better than to put those tales down on paper?

 

WRT to the dagger - didn't Gold give the real dagger back to to Belle last week? I thought he switched it back so he wouldn't be living a lie. We saw him take it out of his jacket and put it into Belle's bag. Did he switch it back again? I've seen no indication of this.

[InsertWordHere]

I thought August amply added his own story to the book. Didn't Henry say the Pinocchio story just appeared? I don't think August changed his own history, he just added it to the book.

[retrograde]

I thought August amply added his own story to the book. Didn't Henry say the Pinocchio story just appeared? I don't think August changed his own history, he just added it to the book.

Yeah, so can't Regina just add a new story where she gets a happy ending to the book?

 

 

WRT to the dagger - didn't Gold give the real dagger back to to Belle last week? I thought he switched it back so he wouldn't be living a lie. We saw him take it out of his jacket and put it into Belle's bag. Did he switch it back again? I've seen no indication of this.

He took the dagger back to activate the magic in the hat.

[maczero]

I don't know, but Dairy Queen is definitely upholding the OUaT Evil Cleavage tradition.

I didn't think this show had that tradition but I was definitely enamored with her rack.

 

And to continue the shallowness:

Was Ginifer Goodwin still pregnant when they were filming this?  She's a lot heavier than when her character was supposed to be pregnant.

[FabulousTater]

if Hook hadn't tracked down the Snow Queen and then relayed her location to Emma, we'd have had Zelena, round two, with a couple more episodes of everyone running around, not knowing who the real threat was. In this situation, by trying to keep him safe, Emma was the one hamstringing the investigation.

But Emma didn't know Hook had vital information that could've helped the investigation. Hook withheld that he was totally onto Rumpel's scam with the fake dagger. Emma's superpower may have been pinging "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" like crazy when Belle used the fake dagger on Rumple, but she had no proof to contradict it. Just like in The Cricket Game, when Emma completely believed Regina was innocent of Archie's murder (which she was) but the dreamcatcher showed otherwise.

 

Hook on the other hand (no pun intended) knows Rumple very, very well and yet withheld his hunch from everyone else. So as far as Emma knew, Hook didn't have anything more to go on than she did, so she weighed her desire to keep him safe against what assistance or information he could provide. I don't doubt she values his being by her side, but she prefers he stay alive. So I didn't have a problem with Emma's reaction because it made sense for her and she didn't know he knew something she didn't. I would have more of a problem with Emma's reaction if Hook had said, "The Crocodile is full of crap. We need to go back and talk to him and I can prove it." and she had replied "Go to the Sheriff station, sit on your hands, and do nothing".

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, so can't Regina just add a new story where she gets a happy ending to the book?

 

I don't think so, because August wasn't changing the past or giving himself a happy ending. Even if he had written himself as always being a real boy and never being separated from his father, it still would not have changed what actually happened, IMO. He still would have been made from enchanted wood and he still would have traveled through the wardrobe with Emma.

[Dani-Ellie]

Yeah, so can't Regina just add a new story where she gets a happy ending to the book?

 

No, because I don't think she thinks the "power" is coming from the book itself. She thinks the "power" is coming from the writer/creator of the book, which is why she wants to find him or her. Regina adding her own happy ending (or changing her own story in the book) won't make it happen because she thinks doing so beyond her capabilities.

 

It's basically more of the same Regina nonsense where she's not responsible for anything that happens in her life. This time, it's because the author of the book is writing her as a villain and is withholding her happy ending because reasons rather than recognizing that she earned her Evil Queen moniker by, y'know, being an evil queen.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

This time, it's because the author of the book is writing her as a villain and is withholding her happy ending because reasons rather than recognizing that she earned her Evil Queen moniker by, y'know, being an evil queen.

Funny how Regina goes from "the name served me well" to "Why does everyone think I'm evil?!"

Edited October 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That deleted scene confused me too.  Rumple having dust that can neutralize someone else's magic is huge... he could use it against Elsa, the Snow Queen, Regina, or even Emma.  So I can't see why they would delete it if it was truly a canon scene.  Since it would be awkward to have Rumple use exposition to describe how he got the dust later?

 

Also regarding that deleted scene, the "Belle, give me the dagger." is getting old fast and starting to make me laugh.  What is she, a Magician's assistant?  And if people know she carries the dagger around in that giant ass purse, some evil person or even a disgruntled citizen should already be plotting to steal it and use it on Rumple yesterday.

 

Is there a chance that the Village Massacre story isn't in Henry's Book?  Can you imagine picking up a Fairytale book and half the chapters were about The Evil Queen?  Anyone would chuck it into the nearest trash can.  And why would Snow give that type of horrific book to Henry, since the village massacre story doesn't personify "hope" at all.  Another thing... does the book only contain the characters brought over in the Curse?  It contained the Wizard of Oz in Season 1, so it seems not.  If the Wizard of Oz story was in there, wouldn't it also reveal that Zelena was Regina's sister?   Is there an adult-only section about Cora sleeping with Jonathan?  

[Shanna Marie]

So I didn't have a problem with Emma's reaction because it made sense for her and she didn't know he knew something she didn't. I would have more of a problem with Emma's reaction if Hook had said, "The Crocodile is full of crap. We need to go back and talk to him and I can prove it." and she had replied "Go to the Sheriff station, sit on your hands, and do nothing".

I didn't actually have a problem with Emma's reaction. She was doing what she thought was the best thing to do, though I do think she was somewhat hampered by her emotions. But I also didn't have a problem with what Hook did. I guess both of them were reacting based on their pasts. Emma's trying to protect him because everyone she loves dies and she doesn't want to lose him, and having someone guarding Elsa from the crazy townspeople was a reasonable precaution. Hook is used to not being trusted, and I think he believes that he's not considered a credible source where Rumple is concerned. He had no proof that the dagger was fake -- not the kind of proof he could take to anyone else, and even if he did, Rumple could have re-switched the daggers. With Hook's track record, would anyone have listened to him if he'd said Rumple was lying, or would they have gone, "But, the dagger! Belle made him tell the truth!"? Even if they might have trusted him, does he think they would have listened to him? Not to mention the fact that Elsa wasn't going to cooperate with being babysat and was going to go off on her own anyway, so it was probably better that they worked together. And Hook's gamble worked in finding the culprit right away. He just might have put himself in a lot of future danger in doing so in irking both Rumple and the Snow Queen.

[kili]

I don't doubt she values his being by her side, but she prefers he stay alive.

 

But she has no right to order him around. She loves her father too and he has as much magic as Hook, why does he get to risk his life? Emma can ask Hook not to do things, but the ordering has to stop. That's not a healthy relationship. The man she fell in love with is a man of action. It's not reasonable to expect him to spend his life wrapped up in cotton balls - ordering him to do so is worse.

 

We've seen Charming and Snow learn how to allow each other to be who they are and ask only to fight by each other's side.

[Rumsy4]

I think she panicked and lashed out at him, especially after almost dying like two days ago. They definitely need to communicate more, but I think Emma is learning to open up and talk about stuff.

[jette]

Senna asked:

...is there some rule that ice-magic-wielding women must wear sparkly dresses?  Can we please get Elsa in normal clothes already?!

 

I also wonder why Marian persisted in wearing her rags once she was reunited with Robin. Now they're frozen onto her body and she'll never get 'em off!

[YaddaYadda]

I think she panicked and lashed out at him, especially after almost dying like two days ago. They definitely need to communicate more, but I think Emma is learning to open up and talk about stuff.

 

Maybe he should point out to her that she nearly froze to death.  That whole life in jeopardy goes both ways and they both lost people they loved because of magic.  I think Emma might've decided he wouldn't go anywhere with her the moment she saw Marian frozen, heard talk about Frederick even though she had no clue who he was and there was seemingly no cure for this which was completely misleading seeing as Robin is a just a total douche really.  She left thinking that the ice was counteracting whatever Robin was trying to do. 

 

She didn't seem to have a problem being in Rumple's shop with both Elsa and Hook questioning the man and even going as far as antagonizing him a little with talk of his vault of terror and her lie detector.

[FabulousTater]

I didn't actually have a problem with Emma's reaction. She was doing what she thought was the best thing to do, though I do think she was somewhat hampered by her emotions. But I also didn't have a problem with what Hook did. I guess both of them were reacting based on their pasts.

I don't really have a problem with Hook's actions either, per say. I think I just would've preferred him to have been upfront about his "plans". I don't know if he thinks anyone would've believed him, but I totally believe Emma would've, especially if her lie detector was pinging "lie, lie, lie!" during Rumple's "I'm telling the truth. Honest! See, the dagger proves it!" IMO, if Hook wants Emma to trust him (which she actually already does. Hooky, you babysit her kid all the time. She trusts you!), then he needs to trust her even when he thinks she might not believe him. But you're right, their behaviors are inline with who they are and their past experiences. Neither was really acting out of character.

 

TBH, I also don't really have a problem with either Emma or Hook's actions because this is one of those many instances in this show when you can see the writers pulling the characters' strings. Usually the writers pulling strings like this results in some serious OOC behavior, but it wasn't bad this time. It's just the plot needed them apart for reasons that were made apparent at the end of the episode (and luckily made sense), and they need Hook to have Rumple in his pocket (or at least think he does) for future episode plot reasons. 

[FabulousTater]

But she has no right to order him around.

But she's the Sheriff (or one of them at any rate). I agree she was snippy as hell, but yet it's kind of her job to give out orders and her giving him orders was job related -- Keep Elsa from the pitchfork mob and out of sight (bonus points that it keeps you safe too!). If Emma were doing this when they were off the clock (so to speak), then sure, "Warning! Not the way to approach a relationship!". But that's not what happened.

[stealinghome]

Hook: "I have no clue what we're up against, but let's go, just you and me, Elsa! This can't go badly at all!"

Actually, I don't think he was that stupid about all that. Once Hook and Elsa found the Snow Queen, he made a point of not engaging, just observing and reporting what he found to Emma, then waiting for backup.

...and got himself and Elsa captured, and himself nearly killed, and Elsa nearly framed for murder. The only reason those are "almosts" instead of "dids" is because Emma and Charming rescued them. Sorry, but I have to disagree--it was stupid for Hook to go looking for danger assuming that he (whose life score is currently Floor 3846056, Hook 1) and Elsa (whose powers are, as we've seen, unpredictable and uncontrollable) would be able to, if they were caught spying, handle someone powerful enough to trump Elsa's magic. It just wasn't a smart, well-thought-out decision (just because no one died doesn't make it smart). Frankly, I thought it was a writing fail for the Hook character. If he's supposed to be such a conniving plotter, he needs to have more common sense.

 

I'm fine with what Hook did up through asking Rumpel for the locator spell. Going off alone with Elsa, however, was foolhardy.

 

When backup didn't arrive, he decided to leave rather than engaging. Will may have pointed them to the ice cream shop, but if Hook hadn't tracked down the Snow Queen and then relayed her location to Emma, we'd have had Zelena, round two, with a couple more episodes of everyone running around, not knowing who the real threat was. In this situation, by trying to keep him safe, Emma was the one hamstringing the investigation.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. When Emma and Charming found the frozen ice cream shop, they realized the ice cream shop owner is the Snow Queen--they didn't need Hook's information for that. In fact, in the woods, Hook and Elsa had less of a clue about the identity of the Snow Queen (who as far as they can tell is some blonde chick in a white dress) than Emma and Charming (who knew it was the ice cream shop proprietor). At the end of the day, the gang didn't really gain any vital knowledge from Hook taking Elsa to the woods. All they know extra now is that Snow Queen knows Elsa and maybe Emma.

 

eta: Which is not to say he wasn't justified in being frustrated that Emma left him on babysitting duty and wanting to have a conversation about it. But he let his own frustration with Emma override his good judgment.

Edited October 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

Hook's motives were very Lois Lane - he's told to stay where it's safe and he completely ignores the advice, stepping into danger and making himself the damsel in distress. (Which is usually Henry's job.) It all felt like a plot contrivance to shine light on Emma's fear of him dying.

 

So, Emma's totally fine with Henry hanging out with Regina? Expected as much. Lots of great parenting going on in this show.

Edited October 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

But she's the Sheriff (or one of them at any rate). I agree she was snippy as hell, but yet it's kind of her job to give out orders and her giving him orders was job related

 

He doesn't work for her and he isn't under arrest. Ordering him away from a crime scene is one thing. Ordering him to the Sheriff's Office when he is not a material witness and has done nothing to warrant arrest (lately) is not within the scope of her allowed jurisdictional powers. Elsa had the right to order Kristoff around because she is Queen. Sheriffs are not the Queens of the town and Storybrooke is not a feudal system.

 

She was ordering him around because he is her boyfriend and that is not a good look on anybody.

 

I'm fine with what Hook did up through asking Rumpel for the locator spell. Going off alone with Elsa, however, was foolhardy.

 

Once Rumple did the locator spell, if they didn't follow the snowflakes, the spell was wasted. At least he called for back-up - that's more than you see in a lot of these shows.

 

When Emma and Charming found the frozen ice cream shop, they realized the ice cream shop owner is the Snow Queen

 

They suspected it. Hook and Elsa (with the assist from Rumple's magic) proved it.

 

We had two teams. Each had a  non-magical male with a female wielding unpredictable magic (they didn't know until the Snow Queen told them that Elsa's magic had been neutralized). Either one of them could have encountered danger from the Snow Queen. The Snow Queen could have just as easily frozen Emma and Charming in her freezer and Emma almost froze to death last week (and Charming shares a heart with his wife and has a newborn - what would happen if he died?)

 

Hook won't be who he is if he sits behind at Grannie's knitting while Emma and Charming take all the risks. In our world, the spouses of firemen, secret service agents and soldiers have to come to that same realization.

 

BTW I loved that Emma knew that the shop was hinky because she has real world knowledge that an ice cream shop should be noisy from the compressor.

[Camera One]

The deleted scene should have been the full 20-minute Fireside Undermine Your Political Leader Session, and maybe an interview with Barbara Walters.  

[Guest]

Well, we're three episodes in and I have to say I am pleasantly surprised with the way that they have used Frozen in OUaT. I was extremely cynical about the whole thing but Ms. Rocky Road has my attention. I am hoping she does not turn out to be related to any of the main characters but I am withholding judgement for now. 

Re: Hook and Emma. I am not a shipper but I do like these two together. I feel like the whole 'he wants her, she pulls away' shtick is getting old. I would like to see them working together as a couple instead of having this constant 'will she trust him?' question hang over our heads. Just to nitpick, the kiss was unnecessary in this episode. When someone tells you that they're afraid to love because everyone they love is dead, you hug them in order to comfort them. Hook almost acted like her fear turned him on with that kiss. Writers take note.

Hook using technology is hilarious every time. More of that! 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

But she has no right to order him around. She loves her father too and he has as much magic as Hook, why does he get to risk his life? Emma can ask Hook not to do things, but the ordering has to stop. That's not a healthy relationship. The man she fell in love with is a man of action. It's not reasonable to expect him to spend his life wrapped up in cotton balls - ordering him to do so is worse.

Something similar happened on Arrow last week and it bothered me for the same reason. These are all adults who know the risks and choose to take an active role in protecting others/finding bad guys/solving mysteries. It is not Emma's place (or Oliver's place on Arrow) to decide "I love you and don't want to risk losing you so I am telling you to sit this out." It's called free will, Emma and Oliver. You have and so does everyone else. I found it funny that Emma feels Hook must be protected but it's okay if Daddy David accompanies her. She can't bear the thought of losing Hook but if her longlost father dies, it's okay! Edited October 13, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[FabulousTater]

He doesn't work for her and he isn't under arrest. Ordering him away from a crime scene is one thing. Ordering him to the Sheriff's Office when he is not a material witness and has done nothing to warrant arrest (lately) is not within the scope of her allowed jurisdictional powers.

[...]

She was ordering him around because he is her boyfriend and that is not a good look on anybody.

And yet Hook wanted to go along as back-up as part of the investigation. He may not be in the official employment books, but he wanted to be the back-up and play a part in an actual investigation, and that investigation falls squarely within Emma and David's authority. It was not a domestic situation. She didn't order him to stay home and do the laundry, FFS. It was a Sheriff/town investigation and she gave him an order as the Sheriff. Yes, a part of her reasoning was trying to protect him and having him look after Elsa gave her that out and she was harsh with him about it, but I don't think because Hook's effectively her boyfriend he gets to ignore her orders when she's working in an official capacity. I think that's disrespectful. (And no, I don't think he was trying to be disrespectful. Not what I'm saying.)

 

I agree to disagree because (for the most part) I don't think people would have had a problem with Emma ordering Hook to guard Elsa if she'd been very calm about it; if she'd calmly explained, "There's a mob out there and we can't conduct an investigation while outrunning pitchforks. So take Elsa to the station. Keep her on the down low, out of sight and safe and we'll meet-up later". I think the problem some people have is with Emma's attitude, not the actual orders. The problem some folks seem to have is not that she had a legitimate reason to keep Hook with Elsa, both out of harm's way, but that she allowed some emotion to take a part of her reasoning. For the record, I don't have a problem with Emma's reasoning to keep Hook and Elsa away. Either the logical one or the emotional one.

 

I found it funny that Emma feels Hook must be protected but it's okay if Daddy David accompanies her.

David is just as much Sheriff as Emma is. They're co-sheriff's apparently, so she can't stop him from doing anything even if she wanted to leave him behind. I don't think the situation is comparable.

Edited October 13, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Jean]

 

he's told to stay where it's safe and he completely ignores the advice, stepping into danger and making himself the damsel in distress.  It all felt like a plot contrivance to shine light on Emma's fear of him dying.

Well I think the point is that it agains show how alike they are and sometimes that works great and sometimes it doesn't. Hook wasn't really interested in helping Elsa. The only reason he went off half-cocked was to protect Emma and she was trying to do the same. Might be delayed reaction from last episode in which case, good for them, some event that has meaning past that episode? Practically blasphemy on this show.

 

By the way I continue to be impressed by how regal Elsa sounds. It's not just the formal words they give her cause some of the other characters use old-fashioned words too but Georgina just nails it.

 

I think the deleted scene was supposed to lead to an explanation of how Dairy Queen neutralized Elsa and also to emphasize the Rumple dagger thing but they felt that it wasn't needed. I did laugh at Rumple and his showmanship. No wonder Hook got suspicious. Rumple lost all of his subtlety with this alibi thing. This whole dagger story is silly and not a lick of it makes any sense but whatever I'm willing to roll with it. I figure they're not giving Belle any lines cause she already looks stupid enough standing there, no need for her to open her mouth and make it worse.

[HeimrArnadalr]

So it would be in loose interpretation: The power (glory) to ice/freeze/isolate the harmful giant of ice (the powerful, magical being) in (the form of a kind of) water.

Well, that translation works for me. 

 

I'm actually not too surprised that they mean something, considering that not only did Elsa explicitly say they might be futhark but also the runes in Frozen (parents' headstones, book with troll map) had actual meanings. I haven't compared the show's version of the headstones with the movie but it wouldn't surprise me if the inscriptions were identical.

[Guest]

Though to be fair, Emma was snippy with David too in this episode. She couldn't tell him to leave since he's co-sheriff but she was still giving him short-hand answers. I agree that Emma has an attitude to the point that she is annoyed that David asks her what's wrong. I just feel that one comment from Regina should not have sparked this much angst from her. You would think she's learnt to take the title Saviour with a pinch of salt by now. 

 

The only reason he went off half-cocked was to protect Emma

 

 

It would be nice if once in a while Hook did something that was not motivated by his love for Emma. He is fast becoming a plot device instead of a character. 

 

I think the deleted scene was supposed to lead to an explanation of how Dairy Queen neutralized Elsa and also to emphasize the Rumple dagger thing but they felt that it wasn't needed.

 

 

Where can I find this please?

Edited October 13, 2014 by lovedwallflower

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Funny how Regina goes from "the name served me well" to "Why does everyone think I'm evil?!"

But she is not exactly evil anymore. Regina does want a quick fix which i am hoping is her story this season. Kinda walking the yellow brick road to having a heart and a happy ending. While searching out the book writer to give her a happy ending she realizes she's written her own.

[scenicbyway]

Well, we're three episodes in and I have to say I am pleasantly surprised with the way that they have used Frozen in OUaT. I was extremely cynical about the whole thing but Ms. Rocky Road has my attention. I am hoping she does not turn out to be related to any of the main characters but I am withholding judgement for now. 

Re: Hook and Emma. I am not a shipper but I do like these two together. I feel like the whole 'he wants her, she pulls away' shtick is getting old. I would like to see them working together as a couple instead of having this constant 'will she trust him?' question hang over our heads. Just to nitpick, the kiss was unnecessary in this episode. When someone tells you that they're afraid to love because everyone they love is dead, you hug them in order to comfort them. Hook almost acted like her fear turned him on with that kiss. Writers take note.

Hook using technology is hilarious every time. More of that! 

I'm a huge shipper of Hook and Emma, but I do agree with you about the kiss.  I've watched it a few times, for science and, it seemed out of place for the conversation they had just had.  I could see a comforting hug and a sweet kiss like the premiere, but an epic make out session in the middle of the street, seemed odd in this scenario.  I would've rather had it in the forest scene in the premiere, but I think they've been building towards and epic moment like that in the last couple of episodes.

[Shanna Marie]

TBH, I also don't really have a problem with either Emma or Hook's actions because this is one of those many instances in this show when you can see the writers pulling the characters' strings. Usually the writers pulling strings like this results in some serious OOC behavior, but it wasn't bad this time.

Really, the more I think about it, the more it does make sense for these characters and where they're coming from. We've got a case of two very independent loners trying to start a relationship with each other, which is going to have pitfalls.

 

I don't think Hook was trying to protect Emma so much as prove himself to her. As he said at the end, he thought that she was keeping him out of play because she didn't trust him, so he was trying to help and show that he could be useful. It didn't seem to have occurred to him that she was trying to keep him safe. If he thought she didn't trust him, then he might be afraid she wouldn't believe him about Rumple unless he had proof, so he had to con Rumple into doing the spell so he could find the Snow Queen, thus skipping the part where she'd have to take what he said on faith. Plus, it's been a very, very long time since he's had to factor anyone else into his decision making -- probably since Milah died. He had his crew, but he was their boss. He was the one who gave the orders and they could either carry them out or leave. If he wanted to put himself in jeopardy, that was his choice. It wasn't like that was going to worry anyone. He's spent centuries doing what he wants, when he wants to, and the people in his life have to just deal with it. So, giving him an order to sideline him when he thinks he can contribute isn't going to work.

 

Meanwhile, Emma is also used to doing her own thing. When she's had someone else to worry about, it's been her son for the past year. She's kind of treating Hook like she'd treat Henry. Do it because I said so. She's a control freak whose life tends to be out of her control, so she controls it where she can.

 

I think I'd be more inclined to side with Emma over this if the pitchforks and torches gang had actually ever been an issue (that plot sort of fell by the wayside, so he never had to protect Elsa from them) and if it hadn't been her blatantly trying to protect him rather than truly about dealing with a threat.

 

Whether Emma would have been able to identify the Snow Queen without what Hook and Elsa did depends on how much ice cream she's eaten. Will broke into the shop when it was closed, so he didn't see the owner. Emma and David would only have known who to look for if they knew who ran the shop. They might have eventually tracked her down by talking to people like Robin or Grumpy, but Hook helped them skip that step. He managed to stay about as safe as he could have under the circumstances, considering that he called for backup, wouldn't let Elsa engage the Snow Queen without backup and was leaving. For Hook, that much restraint is practically a miracle. He was actually walking away from a potential fight.

 

As for Rumple, I wonder if he still considers himself bound by the truce he and Hook made on the way to Neverland. They agreed they wouldn't kill each other. Rumple prides himself on sticking to his deals, though he does look for loopholes. According to that truce, as long as Hook isn't trying to kill him, he can't kill Hook. Will that stop him?

[ParadoxLost]

Rumpel bowing to Hook's threats make no sense because to stop it from working he just needs to swap the real and fake again.  Its not like he can't get access to it any time he wants.

 

Frankly, everyone including the Charmings should have a huge problem with Belle carrying it around in her purse.  Based on past experience, what is worse... Rumpel having his dagger or someone like Zelina getting control of it?

[Camera One]

He managed to stay about as safe as he could have under the circumstances, considering that he called for backup, wouldn't let Elsa engage the Snow Queen without backup and was leaving. For Hook, that much restraint is practically a miracle. He was actually walking away from a potential fight.

 

The way the scene was set made it very unlikely that the Snow Queen would have heard nothing.  It was similar to the Pawn Shop scene where Hook was talking to Gold and Elsa was standing a few feet away and apparently heard nothing.  Why didn't Hook just use his eyeglass thing from a distance?

 

Hook would never have tried to engage the Snow Queen in a fight.  Now that would have been stupid.  Blackbeard is one thing but a powerful magical being?

Edited October 13, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Rumpel bowing to Hook's threats make no sense because to stop it from working he just needs to swap the real and fake again.

 

Or he could have just used a forgetting potion on Hook... or what Regina did to Henry in S2 to forget the conversation.

 

 

Hook would never have to tried to engage the Snow Queen in a fight.  Now that would have been stupid.  Blackbeard is one thing but a powerful magical being?

 

Hook's not very helpful, unless the floor is feeling lonely.

Edited October 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Anisky]

The deleted scene should have been the full 20-minute Fireside Undermine Your Political Leader Session, and maybe an interview with Barbara Walters.  

 

Seriously, if I were Snow I'd be like, "You asked me to be mayor, but if you don't like it, then go ask someone else. Or better yet, we could have an election!"

 

Didn't we establish in previous seasons that Leroy is familiar with electrics? Given what we've seen of their moral fiber so far this season, I can totally believe that he and Granny were sitting around going, "Huh, I mean we COULD try to restore the electricity, but that sounds like hard work. Hey, you know what, I know she's super busy with a newborn and all, and that she was an elementary school teacher with no relevant skills to the situation in this world, but I bet if we told Snow she was the new mayor and that it was her job to fix the electricity for the entire town, she'd feel obligated to do it. I mean, she'd try to be mayor for a while afterwards, but we could just heckle her and lead a couple town mobs against whatever she says, and she'll be so exhausted from the baby that she'll give up. Yeah, that sounds way better than fixing the power ourselves."

Edited October 13, 2014 by Anisky