Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Indi]

I don't blame Sansa for being territorial. I mean, I would be too if a foreigner came to my country with the intention of invading it and rule over it, no matter how huge their army is or how helpful against a common enemy they could prove to be. I suspect not many people would support that scenario. That's all Dany is for now, a helpful invader and she's failing to recognize that only time and effort will change minds and hearts.

Jon bent the knee, because he wasn't interested in being the king of anything. For him, it was an easy choice. At least, I didn't see much struggle on his part. However, it goes to show how shortsighted he is, when he expects everyone else to accept something as unnatural as this person from another continent to be accepted as absolute ruler, because he says so. I'm sorry, but that's not realistic.

Sansa could be more conniving and not show her disgust as openly? Yes, of course, but Dani isn't showing much queenly confidence either(or queenly behavior for that matter). When Sansa very sensibly, albeit haughtily, recommended the tired and wounded soldiers should recover a little, Dani immediately took it as an attack on her and soon started yelling about the North breaking their promise to help her get the Iron Throne. Jon had to jump in and reassure her toy was still hers. She's impulsive and not very reliable, and both Stark sisters can see that. Unfortunately Dani's ambitions and paranoia blinded her to basic common sense, like letting the troops recover and have enough time to refine the very stupid plan, that forgot Euron's naval force and that cost her another dragon.

Having said that, I don't agree with Sansa that Jon should be the king. He doesn't want to be king and that, IMO, makes him even more unfit to rule than Dani could ever be. Jon might be a good commander, but politics? That's beyond him and that would make him a miserable mediocre king at best. And short-lived, too.  Sansa should know that. Dani, on the other hand, could be good enough with a few competent counselors (definitely not Tyrion or Varys!). Her problem is that, even if she managed to be relatively not so disastrous, she still has a fatal flaw, which nobody seems willing to point out: she can't have children. Unfortunately, when it comes to monarchies, that's even more important than good ruling.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

And again the issue is that show Sansa is now magically good at everything. She is suddenly an expert in military matters. She is a political genius. Isaac called her a super diplomat. Sansa became all these things without actually doing, making mistakes and learning like Dany. Dany had to take the slow path of 7 seasons and 5 books.  As Sansa said in this episode, all she had to do was get raped by Ramsay and she is suddenly no longer a little bird but an expert in all matters and the smartest person in Westeros

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa knows nothing.  She brought up the nonsense about the troops being exhausted, after fewer than 12 hours of fighting, some days earlier.  But, she then admitted she hadn't consulted with any of the officers about this alleged fatigue.  She made it up to feel important and undermine Daenerys.   

Five military commanders were in the room and not one of them chimed in to agree that the men were tired.  Ser Davos most certainly would have spoken up, if he agreed. So would Jon.  

Nobody seemed too exhausted at the celebration party.   

I don't understand why Sansa's being described as claiming to have any military knowledge here. She's talking about people being tired and injured, not strategy or anything like that.

If she's just supposed to be wrong and saying something dumb, and these other people there are supposed to have taken care of this problem already, then it would make sense to write the scene as them saying just that. Jon could still make it clear he was annoyed at Sansa offering the opinion while making it clear the army's raring to go. (It seems kind of funny to dismiss the battle as only being a few hours as if this means all they need is a lie-in after it.)

But the scene certainly seems written to me as a conflict that isn't just one-sided. The fact that Jon and Dany make it about questioning Dany without having an answer to the question, imo, sets it up to say yes, Sansa does have a point. Doesn't mean she can't also be irritating Dany, but she's not irritating her in a way that's completely unfounded or Dany etc. would not have missed the chance to say of course they'd thought of this.

Seems to me if Sansa was just flat-out wrong the other people who allegedly know better would have been eager to reassure Sansa they'd given their approval than they would have been to join her in challenging the plan in that moment before Jon shuts it all down. 

[screamin]

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa knows nothing.  She brought up the nonsense about the troops being exhausted, after fewer than 12 hours of fighting, some days earlier.  But, she then admitted she hadn't consulted with any of the officers about this alleged fatigue.  She made it up to feel important and undermine Daenerys.   

Five military commanders were in the room and not one of them chimed in to agree that the men were tired.  Ser Davos most certainly would have spoken up, if he agreed. So would Jon.  

Nobody seemed too exhausted at the celebration party.   

I didn't speak to the commanders either, but I saw a giant fucking hole in one of Dany's dragons' wings that I could see the sky through while it was flying this past episode. Seems to me it might've been a good idea to let that heal.

[Advance35]

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Seems to me if Sansa was just flat-out wrong the other people who allegedly know better would have been eager to reassure Sansa they'd given their approval than they would have been to join her in challenging the plan in that moment before Jon shuts it all down. 

This is my outlook.  It would not have been hard to say "Sansa, the men are all set."  The scene spelled out that the men just fought a war, were exhausted and some injured, but because everyone (accept Sansa) was too concerned with coddling Dany, they wouldn't tell her they need to wait.

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I didn't speak to the commanders either, but I saw a giant fucking hole in one of Dany's dragons' wings that I could see the sky through while it was flying this past episode. Seems to me it might've been a good idea to let that heal.

LMAO. Dany and her Yes Men are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, every time.   Uppity Sansa spoke her mind and though she views Dany as a bug nobody can crush, it was a reasonable and sound concern.  But Daenerys Targaryen....cannot be made to display patience.   She wants what she wants, "Now. Now. Now."

Edited May 7, 2019 by Advance35

[Bryce Lynch]

28 minutes ago, screamin said:

I didn't speak to the commanders either, but I saw a giant fucking hole in one of Dany's dragons' wings that I could see the sky through while it was flying this past episode. Seems to me it might've been a good idea to let that heal.

Sansa: "The men we have left are exhausted.  Many of them are wounded."

No mention of an injured dragon.

They fought for one night, at least some days ago.  The Unsullied, Dothraki and Knights of the Vale are highly trained warriors, with tremendous endurance and the Northerners are a hearty lot. 

Sansa is full of it.  I'd value the opinion of Gilly, Sweet Robin or the brave, little girl with the scar on her face, on such matters, more than that of Sansa Lanister-Bolton, aka the Cryptkeeper.

I don't know what Sansa would know about exhaustion.  I don't think she has ever worked a day in her life at anything even slightly physical, much less fought in any battles.  

Go sit in the corner at each your lemon cakes and do some sewing, dear.  The grown ups are talking.

[screamin]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa: "The men we have left are exhausted.  Many of them are wounded."

No mention of an injured dragon.

They fought for one night, at least some days ago.  The Unsullied, Dothraki and Knights of the Vale are highly trained warriors, with tremendous endurance and the Northerners are a hearty lot. 

Sansa is full of it.  I'd value the opinion of Gilly, Sweet Robin or the brave, little girl with the scar on her face, on such matters, more than that of Sansa Lanister-Bolton, aka the Cryptkeeper.

I don't know what Sansa would know about exhaustion.  I  don't think she has ever worked a day in her life at anything  even slightly physical, much less fought in any battles.  

You're omitting that she ALSO mentioned many men are wounded. We see that even Dany's dragons, whose skin is so tough it's impervious to ordinary weapons, have sustained serious wounds they haven't yet healed from. How much worse off are the wounded human survivors of that battle? I don't think we can assume that because the men have 'tremendous endurance' and are 'hearty' that they can spring back to perfect health like a video game character that just drank a healing potion. And I don't think that just because we saw the men celebrating the day after the battle means that they're all okay and in top notch condition. The whole army can't fit in that dining room, and it stands to reason that after a battle like that,  the men who are more seriously wounded are resting and not celebrating,  and even the lightly wounded ones who feel well enough to raise a glass might not be in shape to embark in a march of hundreds of miles.

[Advance35]

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You're omitting that she ALSO mentioned many men are wounded. We see that even Dany's dragons, whose skin is so tough it's impervious to ordinary weapons, have sustained serious wounds they haven't yet healed from. How much worse off are the wounded human survivors of that battle?

In Season 7, Sansa was content to let the battle come to Winterfell, in terms of the Night King or Cersei, I wonder how that would go.

As is, Dany and (1/2) her enablers were standing outside of Cersei's gates like a pack of Medieval Avon Ladies that have just been told nobody is buying their products.

The "Queen" is down a dragon, a Yes Woman and they've managed to provide Cersei, Euron and Qyburn a lovely morale boost.  Capital work by the Dragon Queen.

Sansa had better come up with a plan B, as is, Dany and Jon's Leadership is about as inspiring as an Abbott and Costello routine.

Jon dragged (the beaten down) Northerners to fight for the sparkly toy Dany has to have now, but did the Vale go too.  I don't think they've sworn to Dany yet have they?

Tyrion and Varys certainly aren't comfortable with the Vale's level of commitments since they seem certain Sansa could torpedo Dany's hold over that particular Kingdom.  If she were purely interested in self-aggrandizement Sansa could certainly go there, since I doubt they'd consistently tell her to "shut up" every time she tried to offer sound advice.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Advance35

[Smad]

56 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Jon dragged (the beaten down) Northerners to fight for the sparkly toy Dany has to have now, but did the Vale go too.  I don't think they've sworn to Dany yet have they?

Lets not forget the differences between Dany's army and any Westerosi army. Dany's army is Unsullied and Dothraki, one are raised to be warriors and the others are raised to be pillagers. Both are trained as fighters their entire life. The bulk of any Westerosi army is smallfolk. Only the commanders might be of noble houses but 99% of the fighting force is common folk. And most of the able bodies in the North have already been depleted from the Wot5K, Red Wedding, Ironborn invasion and Battle of the Bastards. And even more died during the Long Night battle. So I don't see how Sansa was in any way wrong to make the suggestion about rest, especially as she knows how much the North had already suffered the last few years and the fact that most of their 'soldiers' are just common folk.

It's ironic how much shit Sansa gets even when she is reasonable. And while you can argue that her telling (or not depending on where you stand) Tyrion was a betrayal...how do people just ignore Dany and Tyrion in this episode? Was no one paying attention to them?

The two literally tried to divide and conquer the Starks. Dany is telling Jon to keep secrets from his family. Dany giving Gendry the Lord title was not only to make Gendry loyal to her but hoping that Arya and him would marry which would remove Arya from the family. Tyrion then went to Bran and basically insinuates that he should be Lord of Winterfell. Which would remove Sansa from her 'throne'. But hey, lets ignore all that because it's fine when these two characters scheme but Sansa is an evil monster when she does.

[Advance35]

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The two literally tried to divide and conquer the Starks. Dany is telling Jon to keep secrets from his family. Dany giving Gendry the Lord title was not only to make Gendry loyal to her but hoping that Arya and him would marry which would remove Arya from the family. Tyrion then went to Bran and basically insinuates that he should be Lord of Winterfell. Which would remove Sansa from her 'throne'. But hey, lets ignore all that because it's fine when these two characters scheme but Sansa is an evil monster when she does.

I felt there has been a double standard for a while now.  Even last season, Sansa got a lot of grief for "being focused on titles" but that's all Dany, Tyrion, Varys and the rest of their party cared about.

And Jon too.  If titles didn't matter, why was he unwilling to lie to Cersei about his allegiance to Daenerys?  He can be very hypocritical.

Could you imagine the outcry if Jon disliked a man in Sansa's life and Sansa proceeded to treat Jon the way he currently treats her?

[ursula]

28 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Could you imagine the outcry if Jon disliked a man in Sansa's life and Sansa proceeded to treat Jon the way he currently treats her?

Seriously? Sansa has been treating Jon like shit since season 6. She literally hatched a battle strategy that would have killed him because he didn't kowtow to her. Jon has had to forgive her then talk to her about undermining him in public - then forgive her, ad nauseum. Dany just gave Sansa another line of attack to Jon but her shitty treatment of her half brother predated Dany, technically predated their reunion in season 6. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited May 8, 2019 by ursula

[GraceK]

I’m sick of Jon all together honestly.  Sansa could have been the secret kid of Rhaegar Targaryen and made it more interesting. She’s controversial as hell but at least she’s doing something this season . 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Dany just gave Sansa another line of attack to Jon but her shitty treatment of her half brother predated Dany, technically predated their reunion in season 6. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Sansa treats both Jon and Dany terribly and when they react to that terrible treatment, somehow they are the terrible people.

Sansa lies and keeps information from Jon, openly undermines him, fosters resentment among the lords against him, never once supports him in front of the lords, sits there glaring at him when he makes decisions - and when Jon finally shuts down her nonsense - OMG, Jon is being so terrible to poor Sansa.

Sansa is petty, rude and hateful to Dany. Makes snide remarks against her in front of the lords, refuses Dany's overtures of an alliance, speaks against her when Dany was just then fighting to save Sansa's home, and plots and schemes against Dany - OMG, Dany is being so hateful and petty not listening to Sansa's expert military advice about soldiers!

Jon is forced to put up with Sansa because she's his sister and he respects and loves Ned too much to do otherwise. Dany has no such restrictions. It's a testament to how much Dany loves Jon that she has thus far put up with Sansa's nonsense. If it was anyone else, she would have kicked out Sansa and given WF to Lord Glover for instance. I am sure she could  have got Glover's loyalty and more fresh Northern troops that way.

Then Sansa can sit outside WF with her tired soldiers and take care of them to her heart's content. 

[merrick715]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I’m sick of Jon all together honestly.  Sansa could have been the secret kid of Rhaegar Targaryen and made it more interesting. She’s controversial as hell but at least she’s doing something this season . 

We finally agree on something. 😉 Jon is the personification of failing upwards. I appreciate that Sansa and Dany have a goal, and are working towards making it happen. Jon has no reaction to anything. Dany declaring her love for him. Nothing. Dany threatening Sansa. Nope. 

It would have been more interesting if he actually did want to be King, and that's why he told Sansa about his parentage. Why else would he tell Sansa whose thing is politics, if not to provide her with a choice that isn't Dany or Cersei?  That wouldn't happen because Jon is too noble and pure, unlike those two women, who have the audacity to believe they can rule.

Edited May 8, 2019 by merrick715

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

We finally agree on something. 😉 Jon is the personification of failing upwards. I appreciate that Sansa and Dany have a goal, and are working towards making it happen. Jon has no reaction to anything. Dany declaring her love for him. Nothing. Dany threatening Sansa. Nope. 

He would have been more interesting if he actually did want to be King, and that's why he told Sansa about his parentage. Why else would he tell Sansa whose thing is politics, if not to provide her with a choice that isn't Dany or Cersei?  That wouldn't happen because Jon is too noble and pure, unlike those two women, who have the audacity to believe they can rule.

Seriously. Failing upwards describes him perfectly. This past episode was a clusterfuck of misogyny and sexism. At least Dany and Sansa were never murdered. 🙄 Both Dany and Sansa have been responsible for saving his ass, and yet he's the best person to rule Westeros? 🤦🏻‍♀️ His smarter female relatives are the reason he’s not dead, oh , and a fire god worshiping sorceress. It’s like when he died, all his personality left. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by GraceK

[Potanical Pardon]

On 5/7/2019 at 3:09 PM, merrick715 said:

I get not liking Sansa, I get wanting Dany to win, and I even get wanting Sansa to pay for her "betrayal."What I don't understand is this underlying sense of resentment Sansa gets, for not knowing her place, or respecting her betters. Maybe, her gambit will succeed or maybe it'll fail, but at least she'll go out on her own terms, and not relegated to the background, by the narrative. 

I resent her because she is the exact same character since Season 1 Episode 1. She has been through a lot but has not changed at all. She's eternally condescending to whoever whenever she wants and reluctantly cordial/nice when she's forced to be but only when around an audience of 1-few.

She's like those young people who get their first job or are fresh from graduation or whatever and feel like they're adulting now, but are really still just playing and acting out what they feel people outside perceive as adult behavior.

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

I’m sick of Jon all together honestly.  Sansa could have been the secret kid of Rhaegar Targaryen and made it more interesting. She’s controversial as hell but at least she’s doing something this season . 

Me too. It is tragic that they have destroyed his character too but ever since he came back from the dead he is utterly pointless, yet weirdly everyone seems to think he is the best thing since sliced bread. While simultaneously disagreeing with every decision he makes. There were several pay offs I thought I would get with the character that I haven't. Such as I wanted to see the scene and reaction when Dany found out he was brought back from the dead. I mean, that might literally change her mind and make her think, well, maybe I was wrong about it being my destiny. But noooooo... apparently no one ever talks about these things. 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

You're omitting that she ALSO mentioned many men are wounded. We see that even Dany's dragons, whose skin is so tough it's impervious to ordinary weapons, have sustained serious wounds they haven't yet healed from. How much worse off are the wounded human survivors of that battle? I don't think we can assume that because the men have 'tremendous endurance' and are 'hearty' that they can spring back to perfect health like a video game character that just drank a healing potion. And I don't think that just because we saw the men celebrating the day after the battle means that they're all okay and in top notch condition. The whole army can't fit in that dining room, and it stands to reason that after a battle like that,  the men who are more seriously wounded are resting and not celebrating,  and even the lightly wounded ones who feel well enough to raise a glass might not be in shape to embark in a march of hundreds of miles.

What "omitting"?  I quoted her mentioning the wounded men.

You are moving the goalposts.  You first suggested that Sansa was the smart one because she called that Viserion was injured and needed to heal.  I brought the receipts to prove she said no such thing.  So you change the argument to an assumption that the dragon and the armies are in the same physical condition.

Troops who are wounded too badly to fight would stay at WF.

The exhaustion argument is pure bull.  When Daenerys went Unsullied shopping, she was told that they had been standing, outdoors, in formation, for a day and a night without food or water.  She was also told that they trained from dawn till dusk, every day, from the time they were boys.  Their owner cut one of the Unsullied's nipple off and he didn't flinch and said it was an honor to serve him.  They don't tire easily and they handle wounds and pain very well.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Indi]

Sansa just said the men needed time to recover. She probably just meant the her men, since I don't think she cares about Dani's at all. Still, that doesn't make her wrong. Unless Dani planned a surprise attack on KL, they could have let the men recover and use that time to come with a better plan that didn't involve FORGETTING EURON'S FLEET! Bunch of dumbasses! Dani overreacted. She chose to see it as an attack, when she could have easily ignored her. That would have put Sansa in her place more efficiently than dumb John's reassurances.

I really want Cersei dead, but none of this dumbasses deserve the throne.

[Kate47]

I think the point of that conversation was to show Dany's isolation/growing paranoia and illustrate Jon's defense of her.

Normally, a suggestion (by anyone) to let the troops rest would be met with an inquiry by Dany to several generals present or maybe a general report request to see how provisions and weapons are doing. We got troop count, so that would be the logical followup if she intends to march them again.

However, because it came from Sansa, Dany responded with barely contained anger and saw it as a delay tactic rather than a suggestion. Sansa's tone (to me) seemed almost mild, not insinuating or confrontational, but Dany is not in the mindset to see it that way.

Jon shuts Sansa down immediately because he wants to show that they are unequivocally on Dany's side, even though troop consideration should be par for the course. He didn't say "oh, we looked at that and all the troops are in fighting form," he just said "she's your QUEEN." 

I don't see much wrong with this conversation, except that it's colored with the emotions from the night before and thus difficult to handle logically.

[Advance35]

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I really want Cersei dead, but none of this dumbasses deserve the throne.

I'm so torn, Lena is far and away the best actress on the show, bar none.  She and PD made that scene on the battlements award worthy.  You could honestly see when Tyrion hit the wrong note "Your reign is over."  That was when Missandrei died.

I don't care enough about Dany or her dragons to give it to much thought but when I rewatched the scene, it looked like Euron's ships didn't come into view until they rounded some mountains, it looked like prior they would have been out of sight.  What was the Queen of Rationale Thinking doing on the dragon anyway?  Was she scouting or just flying around for an ego boost?

Though Sansa never offered it, her advice about Ramsay applies to Cersei as well.  They enjoy drawing blood, they enjoy hurting people.  If Cersei is going to lose, she wants Daenerys to kill a lot of people to get to her.

Quote

Jon shuts Sansa down immediately because he wants to show that they are unequivocally on Dany's side, even though troop consideration should be par for the course. He didn't say "oh, we looked at that and all the troops are in fighting form," he just said "she's your QUEEN." 

Accurate summation.  When Daenerys doesn't get her way, watch out 7 Kingdoms.  You've got a new tyrant on your hands.  The show doesn't have time to go into the inner life of any characters (to my regret) but I'd love to know where Sansa's head is, in terms of herself.  She wants Northern Independence but I'd like her to articulate how she feels about her place in Winterfell.  

She's pretty powerless, Jon has shown that.  The only reason he doesn't have her confined to here chamber, I'd wager, is because The Vale wouldn't stand for it.   She recognized the maneuver by Dany and Tyrion with Gendry.  It was something she had in mind in 7x01, to further bind, what she saw as loyal Northern Families to House Stark (back when she had a little power) but Jon put a stop to it.

I don't know, I just understand Sansa's resentment,  I'm reluctant to give the writers to much credit but I can't help it.  I'm very much on  her side.

[Indi]

4 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

Jon shuts Sansa down immediately because he wants to show that they are unequivocally on Dany's side, even though troop consideration should be par for the course. He didn't say "oh, we looked at that and all the troops are in fighting form," he just said "she's your QUEEN."

I'm so tired of Jon, I swear! The moment Dani mentions a possible breach of his oath to help her, he immediately goes "Noooo, I swear my honor is immaculate!". Same reason why he told Sansa about his true parentage, even though he knows her feelings about Dany perfectly well. Dumb, I tell you!

I suspect Sansa's suggestion was both common sense and an attempt to undermine Dany a little. Dany's over the top reaction wasn't a good look for a supposed queen, though. Both are understandably paranoid and on edge, but that's not very helpful, when they need all their wits to fight Cersei.

From a pure entertainment point of view, I'd enjoy this rivalry much more if dumb Jon wasn't in the middle.

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, Indi said:

Dany's over the top reaction wasn't a good look for a supposed queen, though.

Queen, not supposed Queen.  She looked at Sansa and said "How long do you suggest?" 

OMG Calm Down, Mad Queen Daenerys!! You'll kill us all!!

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Kate47 said:

I think the point of that conversation was to show Dany's isolation/growing paranoia and illustrate Jon's defense of her.

Normally, a suggestion (by anyone) to let the troops rest would be met with an inquiry by Dany to several generals present or maybe a general report request to see how provisions and weapons are doing. We got troop count, so that would be the logical followup if she intends to march them again.

However, because it came from Sansa, Dany responded with barely contained anger and saw it as a delay tactic rather than a suggestion. Sansa's tone (to me) seemed almost mild, not insinuating or confrontational, but Dany is not in the mindset to see it that way.

Jon shuts Sansa down immediately because he wants to show that they are unequivocally on Dany's side, even though troop consideration should be par for the course. He didn't say "oh, we looked at that and all the troops are in fighting form," he just said "she's your QUEEN." 

I don't see much wrong with this conversation, except that it's colored with the emotions from the night before and thus difficult to handle logically.

LOL!  Dany simply asked Sansa, "How long do you suggest?" 

Sansa replied, "I can't say for certain, not without talking to the officers." revealing that she had no idea if the troops were exhausted or not, because she hadn't even checked.   

[Indi]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

I'm so torn, Lena is far and away the best actress on the show, bar none.  She and PD made that scene on the battlements award worthy.  You could honestly see when Tyrion hit the wrong note "Your reign is over."  That was when Missandrei died.

I don't care enough about Dany or her dragons to give it to much thought but when I rewatched the scene, it looked like Euron's ships didn't come into view until they rounded some mountains, it looked like prior they would have been out of sight.  What was the Queen of Rationale Thinking doing on the dragon anyway?  Was she scouting or just flying around for an ego boost?

Both of them acted circles around the rest of the cast this season in that single scene. I'm in awe of Lena. It makes me sad that she has been reduced to smirking most of the time, but what else can she do if the script says "Cersei smirks to the void" every single time?. I hope they give her the protagonism she deserves in the last couple of episodes.

I do care about the dragons, sadly. What was she doing? Forgetting about basic tactics, like Euron's fleet, according to D&D.

57 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Queen, not supposed Queen.  She looked at Sansa and said "How long do you suggest?" 

OMG Calm Down, Mad Queen Daenerys!! You'll kill us all!!

If it makes you happy to think I made up the "the north doesn't want to reciprocate" scene, suit yourself. Also, at no point have I called her mad queen. Is that a spoiler or just your speculation?

It is funny though that she talked to Sansa as if she had any decision power. Cersei would have squashed Sansa's supposed impudence without opening her mouth. Now, that's a queen (even if an evil one I want to fail against Dani).

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

LOL!  Dany simply asked Sansa, "How long do you suggest?" 

Sansa replied, "I can't say for certain, not without talking to the officers." revealing that she had no idea if the troops were exhausted or not, because she hadn't even checked.   

No, she just revealed she had no idea how long it would take.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Indi

[merrick715]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You first suggested that Sansa was the smart one because she called that Viserion was injured and needed to heal.  I brought the receipts to prove she said no such thing.  So you change the argument to an assumption that the dragon and the armies are in the same physical condition.

So, if Sansa had specifically brought up the giant hole in Rhaegal's wing, you'd be good? It's not a leap of logic to think if Rhaegal has a large wound on his wing, then their soldiers aren't fairing much better. Dragons are covered with hard scales, and humans are covered with skin.

Forget Sansa for a moment, you would think Dany would want to wait to leave until her child heals up. It's not like Dany just lost a huge chunk of her army, and the soldiers she does have left are battle weary, and their opponents are fresh soldiers from the Golden Company. Her only advantage is her dragons, and one of them is injured. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by merrick715

[Sakura12]

I think what bothers me about Sansa besides betraying Jon's trust. Is she she still can't admit Dany helped them. Even Arya the Night King Slayer understands that without Dany's help they most likely would've died. When Arya said she respects that Jon was right in going to Dany. Sansa got all snooty and was like "You respect that" Really? She can't even admit that Dany's dragons and soldiers helped. 

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, Indi said:

If it makes you happy to think I made up the "the north doesn't want to reciprocate" scene, suit yourself.

It makes me happy to point out that her reaction was in no way over the top. 

As Queen, Daenerys is allowed to be annoyed if at the end of a war council meeting- when a plan is hammered out and her closing remarks are given, someone with no military experience and a consistent albeit-recent history of undermining her authority interjects with a reason why their plan is flawed, with no evidence to support their assertions.  Particularly if that person is a smug little shit-talker who brings nothing to the table aside from her own political aspirations, like Sansa Stark. 

9 minutes ago, Indi said:

No, she just revealed she had no idea how long it would take.

Because she hadn't talked to the officers and had no idea.  Because she just blurted it out because she needed something negative to say about the current plan, which Daenerys quickly recognized as a delay tactic on the part of someone who is actively working to undermine her authority in the North and has been forthcoming.  (And prior to that, worked to undermine Jon's authority as King in the North even when asked not to.)

[Advance35]

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Both of them acted circles around the rest of the cast this season in that single scene. I'm in awe of Lena. It makes me sad that she has been reduced to smirking most of the time, but what else can she do if the script says "Cersei smirks to the void" every single time?. I hope they give her the protagonism she deserves in the last couple of episodes.

I do care about the dragons, sadly. What was she doing? Forgetting about basic tactics, like Euron's fleet, according to D&D.

All true.  It was wonderful acting.   And I'm someone that wasn't impressed with Lena in Season 1.  I agree about how sloppy D&D have gotten but it's so hard for me to be mad at them because GRRM was never going to write a conclusion.  I honestly don't see how he could get any of these characters to anything approaching where they are, within the course of two books.

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It is funny though that she talked to Sansa as if she had any decision power. Cersei would have squashed Sansa's supposed impudence without opening her mouth. Now, that's a queen (even if an evil one I want to fail against Dani).

I feel like Jon and Dany allow Sansa in the room because of The Vale.  Tyrion said that Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale if there was a war.   This fits, as far as I know, because Lord Royce NEVER declared for Jon and even pointed out last season, the Knights of the Vale are there for Sansa alone.  They don't give a tinkers tool about Jon and they see Dany for what she is.

As gutsy as Sansa's gotten, I do think she's still scared of Cersei.  Which I find believable, people that terrify you as a child can still have a hold over you, even when you've grown.  For that alone,  it would have been interesting to see how Sansa would have comported herself at the Dragon Pit meeting in Season 7.

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So, if Sansa had specifically brought up the giant hole in Rhaegal's wing, you'd be good? It's not a leap of logic to think if Rhaegal has a large wound on his wing, then their soldiers aren't fairing much better. Dragons are covered with hard scales, and humans are covered with skin.

I will never understand why Dany or her henchman Jon, couldn't just say, "The Soldiers are fine Sansa, they are ready and eager to move."  Bam. Done.  Sansa is apparently not allowed to make warranted and practical observations/queries if the wannabe Queen's feelings aren't up for it.

And if Sansa wanted to undermine the group endeavor, she could have whispered in Lord Royce's ear about how the Vale Soldiers need rest.  The Vale is apparently there for her.  Jon hasn't won them over (according to Tyrion) and they are not impressed with Daenerys either.  But in the interest of surface cooperation (which is all she is obligated to perform) Sansa watches Dany chew her own face about what she's owed and how they have to go "now, now, now."  She lets Jon flex, yell and try to intimidate her, because she wants Cersei dead as much as anyone.

Their rush job has Dany down another dragon, had her standing outside Cersei's Kings Landing like a tearful Avon Lady "Please buy some of my products" and Missandrei lost her head.  Tsk Tsk.

[Indi]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

It makes me happy to point out that her reaction was in no way over the top. 

As Queen, Daenerys is allowed to be annoyed if at the end of a war council meeting- when a plan is hammered out and her closing remarks are given, someone with no military experience and a consistent albeit-recent history of undermining her authority interjects with a reason why their plan is flawed, with no evidence to support their assertions.  Particularly if that person is a smug little shit-talker who brings nothing to the table aside from her own political aspirations, like Sansa Stark. 

Because she hadn't talked to the officers and had no idea.  Because she just blurted it out because she needed something negative to say about the current plan, which Daenerys quickly recognized as a delay tactic on the part of someone who is actively working to undermine her authority in the North and has been forthcoming.  (And prior to that, worked to undermine Jon's authority as King in the North even when asked not to.)

Everyone is allowed to be annoyed, but if a queen feels she's being undermined by a shit-talker, she treats her as such and doesn't contribute to the drama by asking her questions that imply that shit-talker has any authority about tactics or whines about lack of reciprocation, as if they have any say. A queen doesn't stoop to look like a whiny brat, when talking to a shit-talker.

Sansa has been shown to care for her people. I have no doubt, that her interruption wasn't 100% selfless, but she also talked complete sense. What didn't make sense was Dani's urgency to set off on her quest for the IT and her need to prove her military prowess by forgetting a whole freaking fleet, that cost her a dragon and a friend. Who needs common sense, when you can have that kind of military wisdom?

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I feel like Jon and Dany allow Sansa in the room because of The Vale.  Tyrion said that Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale if there was a war.   This fits, as far as I know, because Lord Royce NEVER declared for Jon and even pointed out last season, the Knights of the Vale are there for Sansa alone.  They don't give a tinkers tool about Jon and they see Dany for what she is.

Well, they shouldn't allow her in, because even if she has control of The Vale, they are following Jon's orders now. I'll say it again, Jon is an idiot. Either Sansa can say something as innocuous as "letting the men recover" and not have his queen feel threatened or she is not invited at all. Jon knows they can't stand each other, but honor compels him to do the impossible to make matters worse. What was Arya doing there, by the way, other than glaring at Dani and Jon? Ah yes, she needed an excuse for her line about not trusting Dani.

[QuinnM]

2 minutes ago, Indi said:

What was Arya doing there, by the way, other than glaring at Dani and Jon? Ah yes, she needed an excuse for her line about not trusting Dani.

I trust Arya's opinion more than either Jon or Sansa's.  She really doesn't do a lot of political intrigue or personal feelings stuff.  She also literally trained for years to read a liar.

[Indi]

9 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

I trust Arya's opinion more than either Jon or Sansa's.  She really doesn't do a lot of political intrigue or personal feelings stuff.  She also literally trained for years to read a liar.

So do I, but I'm still baffled by her presence there. She couldn't contribute to anything. I mean, it's not like everyone and their aunty is normally invited to war councils. Yes, we needed at least one scene with her being suspicious of Dany, but it could have been done at the party. 

I guess I wish she had said something, even if it was only to call them all imbeciles 😄  

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You are moving the goalposts.  You first suggested that Sansa was the smart one because she called that Viserion was injured and needed to heal. I brought the receipts to prove she said no such thing.

I said nothing of the kind. You pooh-poohed the idea that Sansa could possibly be saying anything truthful in her report on the men's condition. I only pointed out that even Dany's dragon is severely wounded, which lends credibility to Sansa's report that many MEN are.

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 So you change the argument to an assumption that the dragon and the armies are in the same physical condition.

As I said, I didn't claim that Sansa made a report about the dragons, so I didn't change the argument. If even the nearly-invulnerable dragon is seriously wounded by the attacks of wights, is it really a far-fetched assumption that many men are, too?

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Troops who are wounded too badly to fight would stay at WF.

I'm sure there are many men with lesser flesh wounds who could be in fighting shape with a few days to heal and make up for the blood they lost.

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The exhaustion argument is pure bull.  When Daenerys went Unsullied shopping, she was told that they had been standing, outdoors, in formation, for a day and a night without food or water.  She was also told that they trained from dawn till dusk, every day, from the time they were boys.  Their owner cut one of the Unsullied's nipple off and he didn't flinch and said it was an honor to serve him.  They don't tire easily and they handle wounds and pain very well.

Mmmyes, that WAS the sales talk of the slavemaster marketing his slaves as the  nearly invulnerable, unfeeling robots he wants them to be thought of, to justify their high price. Regardless of whether it's true or not that their brutal training made them indifferent to exhaustion and being wounded, the fact is that they ARE flesh-and-blood humans and ought  to be treated that way, both out of humaneness and out of simple practicality - they ARE vulnerable to disease and exhaustion like any human is; mistreat them too much and you will be out another experienced soldier.

Not to mention that what supposedlly applies to the Unsullied does not apply to the Dothraki or the Northern soldiers, whether discussing exhaustion or wounds.

Edited May 8, 2019 by screamin

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

I said nothing of the kind. You pooh-poohed the idea that Sansa could possibly be saying anything truthful in her report on the men's condition. I only pointed out that even Dany's dragon is severely wounded, which lends credibility to Sansa's report that many MEN are.

As I said, I didn't claim that Sansa made a report about the dragons, so I didn't change the argument. If even the nearly-invulnerable dragon is seriously wounded by the attacks of wights, is it really a far-fetched assumption that many men are, too?

Yeah, it does almost read as a little ominous call-back when Jon says that. Sansa said nothing about dragons--she hadn't gotten close enough to them and would have no idea what they could or couldn't endure, unlike her experience of even strong men.

But the fact that Jon's saying he doesn't want to ride the huge dragon that's the main thing that makes Dany's force so unbeatable because it's healing up does seem to directly contradict his position in the war meeting directly. If he doesn't need Jon on his back while he heals he probably doesn't need to be flying all over the country as a war weapon either. As you point out, it makes sense to see that as the same pov being given to the men--they can heal/rest up on the way.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, Indi said:

Both of them acted circles around the rest of the cast this season in that single scene. I'm in awe of Lena. It makes me sad that she has been reduced to smirking most of the time, but what else can she do if the script says "Cersei smirks to the void" every single time?. I hope they give her the protagonism she deserves in the last couple of episodes.

I do care about the dragons, sadly. What was she doing? Forgetting about basic tactics, like Euron's fleet, according to D&D.

If it makes you happy to think I made up the "the north doesn't want to reciprocate" scene, suit yourself. Also, at no point have I called her mad queen. Is that a spoiler or just your speculation?

It is funny though that she talked to Sansa as if she had any decision power. Cersei would have squashed Sansa's supposed impudence without opening her mouth. Now, that's a queen (even if an evil one I want to fail against Dani).

No, she just revealed she had no idea how long it would take.

If Sansa had inquired with the officers about the state of the troops BEFORE the meeting, they would have told her about how much time they needed to rest.  

Sansa had no clue whether or not the troops needed rest.  She knows nothing about combat at all, except to stay far away from it.   

[Heathrowe]

 

 

1

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Sansa had inquired with the officers about the state of the troops BEFORE the meeting, they would have told her about how much time they needed to rest.  

Sansa had no clue whether or not the troops needed rest.  She knows nothing about combat at all, except to stay far away from it.   

...this is like awesome fanfiction. You are taking what you saw on screen and then creating an unverified story around it. In my own fanfiction, Sansa inquired with the officers about the state of the troops and they replied "We can't move now, woman! We need rest!" so she brought that back to the council, not realizing she'd be asked for a specific amount of days.

There are many ways to go with it, yours is just one of them. 

[Bryce Lynch]

If Sansa had  spoken to the officers, before the meeting, and they told her the troops were exhausted, and she didn't ask them how long they needed to rest, then Sansa is an idiot.   

[Chaser]

Maybe Sansa assumed that Dany had better sense than to move the army (and her dragon) so soon. 

[Advance35]

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Maybe Sansa assumed that Dany had better sense than to move the army (and her dragon) so soon. 

Common sense? From Dany?  Hope springs eternal.

When actually pursuing the Iron Throne, she's been one disaster after another.  Even Olenna use to refer to her as "Tyrion's Queen" thinking she was a poor substitute for Margaery.

Dany's sense of entitlement and divine right has led to the fall of The Reach, Yara Greyjoy's fleet decimated and on the run, plus another dead Dragon.

Is it any wonder Sansa wants the North independent from Dany's parade of blunders.  Jon has Winterfell/The North shackled to Dany and she is simply not a good ruler.  As has been displayed all season.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Advance35

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Dany's sense of entitlement and divine right has led to the fall of The Reach, Yara Greyjoy's fleet decimated and on the run and another dead Dragon

Dany's sense of entitlement in heeding her Hand's advice? 🙄 

[Indi]

9 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

...this is like awesome fanfiction. You are taking what you saw on screen and then creating an unverified story around it. In my own fanfiction, Sansa inquired with the officers about the state of the troops and they replied "We can't move now, woman! We need rest!" so she brought that back to the council, not realizing she'd be asked for a specific amount of days.

There are many ways to go with it, yours is just one of them. 

I mean, we can all assume things, like: Sansa is not really concerned about anyone. If she was, she would have predicted Dani's harebrained plan to move the troops right now and prepared every possible answer to Dani's questions. It's not like she had access to several parts of her home and seen for herself the damage the NK caused and understand the dangers about rushing into another war. Because only combatants understand basic common sense and she should know better, than express her insignificant concerns on a council she was invited to.

[Advance35]

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Because only combatants understand basic common sense and she should know better, than express her insignificant concerns on a council she was invited to.

And in my view, at the end of the day, the buck stops with Dany.   As she likes to remind anyone who has the misfortune to be her captive audience, "I am the RIGHTFUL Queen of all Seven Kingdoms."  Her advisers can offer advice or not, on paper allies can offer suggestions and be told to shut up (Sansa how dare you offend a Queen by mentioning soldiers might need rest, go to your chambers and brush your hair) but at the end of the day, the craven collection does what the Dragon Toddler demands.

Dany can't receive and consider information unless it is fed to her as part of an ego cupcake.

Now Dany has lost another 3rd of her claim to fame, The Northmen (an exhausted lot, even before the AOD war) will have to throw even more man power into the pursuit of Dany's delusions of grandeur, and Missandrei makes an ideal casting call for a headless horsemen.

Dany shouldn't be ruling a tavern in Flea Bottom much less the Seven Kingdoms.

Sansa knows she can't do anything to turn the tide alone, so she planted a seed where she thought growth would do the most damage to Dany's pending reign of terror.  From the looks of it, she wasn't wrong to do so.  Members of Dany's cult are beginning to see what Sansa does.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Advance35

[merrick715]

4 hours ago, Indi said:

Because only combatants understand basic common sense and she should know better, than express her insignificant concerns on a council she was invited to.

 Who knew that the health of the soldiers in your army is an insignificant concern? It's not like you'll be needing, said army, to fight against the Golden Company. The same Golden Company, whose men are fresh, and will be fighting against your army. The same army that consists of soldiers who just survived fighting against the Army of the Dead.  

Maybe Sansa didn't know the exact amount time, because she assumed Dany would want to wait until the hole in Rhaegal's healed, and she figured the soldiers would be healed by then. Obviously, Sansa overestimated Dany's concern for her "children". Dany could have asked Sansa to go to back to the captains to find out the answer or even asked the captains herself before she made her decision. but she chose not to. 

[Bryce Lynch]

51 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

And in my view, at the end of the day, the buck stops with Dany.   As she likes to remind anyone who has the misfortune to be her captive audience, "I am the RIGHTFUL Queen of all Seven Kingdoms."  Her advisers can offer advice or not, on paper allies can offer suggestions and be told to shut up (Sansa how dare you offend a Queen by mentioning soldiers might need rest, go to your chambers and brush your hair) but at the end of the day, the craven collection does what the Dragon Toddler demands.

Dany can't receive and consider information unless it is fed to her as part of an ego cupcake.

Now Dany's has lost another 3rd of her claim to fame, The Northmen (an exhausted lot, even before the AOD war) will have to throw even more man power into the pursuit of Dany's delusions of grandeur, and Missandrei makes an ideal casting call for a headless horsemen.

Dany shouldn't be ruling a tavern in Flea Bottom much less the Seven Kingdoms.

Sansa knows she can't do anything to turn the tide alone, so she planted a seed where she thought growth would do the most damage to Dany pending reign of terror.  From the looks of it, she wasn't wrong to do so.  Members of Dany's cult are beginning to see what Sansa does.

The thing is that General Sansa was not giving genuine advice.  She said the men were exhausted, which implied she had investigated the state of the troops and determined they were exhausted.  When Dany asked her how long did she think they needed, she basically admitted that she hadn't talked to the officers about the troops, so she had no idea if the troop were exhausted.

It was a deceitful, delay tactic.  That is what annoyed Dany.   She is used to getting questionable to bad advice from Tyrion and Varys, but she didn't believe they were trying to undermine her.  

[Drogo]

17 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Dany can't receive and consider information unless it is fed to her as part of an ego cupcake.

Or unless it comes from a trusted/well-informed person whose counsel she respects and desires. 

5 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

4 hours ago, Indi said:

Because only combatants understand basic common sense and she should know better, than express her insignificant concerns on a council she was invited to.

 Who knew that the health of the soldiers in your army is an insignificant concern?

The health of the soldiers is a significant concern.  Sansa's uninformed "But what about this reason why we shouldn't attack Kings Landing until I figure out a new way to get rid of you until we're ready?!" is insignificant. 

The Lords/commanders were all there.  They said how many fighting men they had.  Certainly the conversation didn't start there, though that's where we joined it.  The quantity and quality of soldiers had been covered already.  The plan had been sorted out.  Even numbers between their army and ours, we'll cut off the food supply, make the civilians turn on Cersei.. great meeting, everyone - we'll regroup in Dragonstone - BREAK! --

Suddenly-- 
 

[Indi]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Dany shouldn't be ruling a tavern in Flea Bottom much less the Seven Kingdoms.

Eh! I don't think it's that dire. Anyone aspiring to the throne would have to have a few delusions of grandeur in the first place.

I think it's natural that Sansa and Dani are so distrustful of one another. Their political ambitions are at odds and anyone expecting Sansa to play nice or be meek to the Rightful Queen is delusional. Dani is a threat to Sansa and Sansa is an obstacle to Dani's ambitions. I'm enjoying their cold war. I'm not enjoying dumb Jon in the middle.

42 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

 Who knew that the health of the soldiers in your army is an insignificant concern? It's not like you'll be needing, said army, to fight against the Golden Company. The same Golden Company, whose men are fresh, and will be fighting against your army. The same army that consists of soldiers who just survived fighting against the Army of the Dead.  

Maybe Sansa didn't know the exact amount time, because she assumed Dany would want to wait until the hole in Rhaegal's healed, and she figured the soldiers would be healed by then. Obviously, Sansa overestimated Dany's concern for her "children". Dany could have asked Sansa to go to back to the captains to find out the answer or even asked the captains herself before she made her decision. but she chose not to. 

The fact that Dani didn't brush aside Sansa's worries with a "We've already taken that into consideration" tells me that she hadn't even bothered to consider it. Powering through to the IT was the only thing in her mind. I mean, I understand her in a way. It's so close! Look at the results of her strategy, though. 

I have to say I do understand her overreaction. She's increasingly isolated. She only has on (ex)Stark firmly on her side and he's sometimes too wishy-washy. She's not winning hearts and minds, like she did in Essos. She can't "put Sansa in her place" just yet. Dani needs her to get the IT. She is understandably on edge. No training lessons in Essos could have prepared her for the mess that is Westeros. People are so ungrateful! 😄

Sansa, on the other hand, understands she can't put her fate in the hands of yet another unpredictable ruler. I believe this is the reason she wants an independent North, so that she's not subjected to the whims of yet another monarch, who not only is a foreigner, but a Targaryen. Dani is the full combo and people expect Sansa to bend the knee willingly, play nice and conform? Nah! That's Dumb!Jon, not Sansa.

This power struggle needed another season!

[Advance35]

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Maybe Sansa didn't know the exact amount time, because she assumed Dany would want to wait until the hole in Rhaegal's healed, and she figured the soldiers would be healed by then. Obviously, Sansa overestimated Dany's concern for her "children". Dany could have asked Sansa to go to back to the captains to find out the answer or even asked the captains herself before she made her decision. but she chose not to. 

And I'd credit Sansa for not trying to be an expert in something she's not.  The health of the Soldiers after an intense battle is a prudent query.  She is worried about people being thrown "into a battle their not ready to fight."  Even if Sansa is a mean girl, that's an observation worth following up on.  Dany could have turned to Jon and said "Warden of the North, please ensure my Northern forces are combat ready."  Addresses the issue, dismisses Sansa from any role in the proceedings, it's tic tac toe easy.

Quote

The thing is that General Sansa was not giving genuine advice.  She said the men were exhausted, which implied she had investigated the state of the troops and determined they were exhausted.  When Dany asked her how long did she think they needed, she basically admitted that she hadn't talked to the officers about the troops, so she had no idea if the troop were exhausted.

Whatever her motivation, Sansa's observation should have been addressed and is another way in which Dany's arrogance and her enablers, shoot themselves in the foot.  Her fleet (what was left of it) has been destroyed, her forces actually ended up SWIMMING to Dragonstone (Priceless) and the bulk of her army is (according to Tyrion) quite a ways away.  Maybe they could march a little faster had they been a little more rested.

I can't fault Dany for not being pleased to hear from Sansa (she's earned that) BUT if she's only receptive to what she wants to hear, from people she wants to hear it, that doesn't bode well.   Sansa didn't run with the ball as far as she could, so Dany should have had someone else take it from there.

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I think it's natural that Sansa and Dani are so distrustful of one another. Their political ambitions are at odds and anyone expecting Sansa to play nice or be meek to the Rightful Queen is delusional. Dani is a threat to Sansa and Sansa is an obstacle to Dani's ambitions. I'm enjoying their cold war. I'm not enjoying dumb Jon in the middle.

Oh I think this conflict is very organic.  I know some don't like women pitted against women but I don't think this feud is contrived by any means.  Sansa spent a large part of her formative years in a place where the game never stops and she was always on the losing end.  

For a brief moment/time span, Sansa was co-ruler of the North and not in the jurisdiction of the Iron Throne.  That was probably as near to happy as she had been in years.  Only to get  a raven from Jon saying "Sorry Sans, I sold the Farm."

[Minneapple]

I mean I'm no war general but in the spoiler thread even I questioned Dany's decision to straight away march on King's Landing, because many of the troops are injured, plus they are likely going through physical and mental fatigue. We even speculated that it may be a source of friction between characters.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

The health of the soldiers is a significant concern.  Sansa's uninformed "But what about this reason why we shouldn't attack Kings Landing until I figure out a new way to get rid of you until we're ready?!" is insignificant

If Sansa's only motive was 'to get rid of' Dany ASAP, she would never have brought up any reason to delay the moment Dany marches away from WF with her army. She did bring it up, because Northmen, including her own doofus brother, are marching away with her. If they're marching away exhausted and wounded, chances are that a lot fewer are going to eventually march home again than they would if they were marching in good shape...and the commander who chooses to march them in that condition is likelier not to win her battle.

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

The Lords/commanders were all there.  They said how many fighting men they had.  Certainly the conversation didn't start there, though that's where we joined it.  The quantity and quality of soldiers had been covered already.  The plan had been sorted out.  Even numbers between their army and ours, we'll cut off the food supply, make the civilians turn on Cersei.. great meeting, everyone - we'll regroup in Dragonstone - BREAK! --

"Exhaustion" is not an easily objectively judged condition, true, but 'wounded' is. Wounds are quite visible, countable and qualifiable. We saw numbers of surviving soldiers covered in the meeting. We didn't see anyone discuss the condition of the survivors. If you're saying that the condition of the wounded soldiers was covered and Sansa just missed it, someone could have simply told her when she brought it up, "We mentioned that already, were you napping?" No one did. Instead the Queen delved into specifics of Sansa's remark, as if no one HAD brought it up. And we later saw the queen flying with her wounded child later, underlining that the concern about going wounded to battle is a real problem.

Great GIF use, though.

Edited May 9, 2019 by screamin

[DigitalCount]

18 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Sansa's only motive was 'to get rid of' Dany ASAP, she would never have brought up any reason to delay the moment Dany marches away from WF with her army. She did bring it up, because Northmen, including her own doofus brother, are marching away with her. If they're marching away exhausted and wounded, chances are that a lot fewer are going to eventually march home again than they would if they were marching in good shape...and the commander who chooses to march them in that condition is likelier not to win her battle. 

"Exhaustion" is not an easily objectively judged condition, true, but 'wounded' isn't. Wounds are quite visible, countable and qualifiable. We saw numbers of surviving soldiers covered in the meeting. We didn't see anyone discuss the condition of the survivors. If you're saying that the condition of the wounded soldiers was covered and Sansa just missed it, someone could have simply told her when she brought it up, "We mentioned that already, were you napping?" No one did. Instead the Queen delved into specifics of Sansa's remark, as if no one HAD brought it up. And we later saw the queen flying with her wounded child later, underlining that the concern about going wounded to battle is a real problem.

Great GIF use, though.

Not just this, but we then saw Rhaegal get killed by the same bolts that the relatively hale and hearty Drogon pulled out of a falcon dive to dodge. Maybe it's because Dany was riding Drogon and Jon wasn't, but even that is because of Rhaegal being wounded. Either he couldn't get out of the way because his wing was injured, or he couldn't get out of the way because he had no rider, which was because his wing was injured.

[Portia4844]

The major characters who fought hard in the battle appeared to be in good shape with the ability to clean up the place, get the dead ready for burning, mourn, celebrate, eat, drink, have sex, and saddle up horses to begin the journey to KL. 

Sansa's concern about healing and resting was thoughtful while still being an attempt to undermine Dany and Jon going along with Dany to prove he's still on her side.

What didn't take place was intelligent discussion on how to win the next battle against Cersei who had more time to plan and had no reservations of blowing up parts of KL to achieve her goals.  There was Dany wanting to keep Sansa from undermining her, Jon unable to wait to tell Arya and Sansa the secret that has been kept since he was born, Sansa using it against Dany without thought to whether that could endanger Jon.  Jon didn't do what Ned of capable of and Sansa's behavior was exactly why Ned kept the secret.