Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

Sansa doesn’t seem to get that if Dany were to lose her campaign, Cersei would not give Sansa what she wants; an independent North, and Cersei would likely execute Sansa, Jon Bran and Arya (if she could find her) and give Winterfell to one of her loyal cronies and the North would still be part of the seven Kingdoms. 

She believes that the North can protect itself, that it will never accept an outsider ruling over then again after having reasserted it's independence.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

People keep posting about Sansa's ambition.

I don't think her ambition is to be queen and sit on the Iron Throne. I think her ambition is to say in Winterfell and be in charge of her own destiny and never be manipulated, beaten, or sexually abused again. 

Her best bet for the life she wants is Jon on the throne.  I'm not sure if her crazy alarm was ringing when she met Dany or if she realized that Dany was just another person who would expect to control her. Dany will probably try to have Sansa executed next episode. The writing has been awful, but Sansa was right to identify Dany as a threat to her independence/the life she wants.

Having Jon on the Iron Throne is much safer for Sansa and that's why she spilled the beans to Tyrion, to present him as the better option.

12 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

She believes that the North can protect itself, that it will never accept an outsider ruling over then again after having reasserted it's independence.

I agree with this. The fact that Dany is trying to take the IT informs everything about her. It gives all her actions more weight. Sansa and she aren't competing each other in the ambition stakes. Yes, Sansa is in a position of authority in the North, but in her conflict with Dany one is trying to rule, the other is trying to keep from being ruled.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

Sansa doesn’t seem to get that if Dany were to lose her campaign, Cersei would not give Sansa what she wants; an independent North, and Cersei would likely execute Sansa, Jon Bran and Arya (if she could find her) and give Winterfell to one of her loyal cronies and the North would still be part of the seven Kingdoms. 

If Dany refuses to let her soldiers and her own reptilian children recover from wounds before marching into battle just to be contrary to  the advice of someone she disliked and distrusted, the chances are good that with such reactive impulsivity she may lose to Cersei and get her Northern soldiers commanded by Jon killed in the bargain. That's not good strategic thinking...hence Sansa's distress when Jon marched off.

[MarySNJ]

38 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

She believes that the North can protect itself, that it will never accept an outsider ruling over then again after having reasserted it's independence.

Yes, that's what Sansa believes. But how realistic was that belief? Hypothetically, if Dany hadn't come to the aid of the North in the war against the AotD, there may not have been any northerners alive to be independent. If the Northman had remained in the North, without the Dothraki and Unsullied allies, and Cersei sent the combined Lannister and Gold Company forces north, the northern forces might have been defeated. 

It turned out that Dany did most of the damage to Cersei's forces on her own, but no one knew that sit would go that way.  And that leaves the North vulnerable to Dany's wrath now that she feels she's been betrayed by Sansa. 

[MarySNJ]

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Dany refuses to let her soldiers and her own reptilian children recover from wounds before marching into battle just to be contrary to  the advice of someone she disliked and distrusted, the chances are good that with such reactive impulsivity she may lose to Cersei and get her Northern soldiers commanded by Jon killed in the bargain. That's not good strategic thinking...hence Sansa's distress when Jon marched off.

I see both sides here.

I understand Sansa's point about the troops time to recuperate, but her posture was more "never" than really trying to ascertain how long the troops needed to recoup. Dany knew that Sansa didn't want to send troops to Kings Landing and it seemed like she was stalling.

And it's true that there was a risk of Jon and his troops being killed, but that would be true if they remained at Winterfell and waited for the Lannister and GC forces to come to rout them out. There are always risks of death in war. 

I don't think Dany was being petty. She was rightly worried that the longer they wait, the more resources Cersei would be able to muster against them.  Cersei said as much when she told Jaime she was going the let the northern forces and Dany's forces fight the AotD while she brought in the Golden Company to clean up whatever was left. That's what Jaime revealed when he arrived at Winterfell. I understand Sansa's concern, but there was no guarantee that the Starks, Winterfell and the North would be safe from Cersei if Dany left them to defend themselves, and risking the wrath of 2 queens is also risky. 

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes, that's what Sansa believes. But how realistic was that belief? Hypothetically, if Dany hadn't come to the aid of the North in the war against the AotD, there may not have been any northerners alive to be independent. If the Northman had remained in the North, without the Dothraki and Unsullied allies, and Cersei sent the combined Lannister and Gold Company forces north, the northern forces might have been defeated. 

It turned out that Dany did most of the damage to Cersei's forces on her own, but no one knew that sit would go that way.  And that leaves the North vulnerable to Dany's wrath now that she feels she's been betrayed by Sansa. 

Dany called herself Queen of all of Westeros.

That would include the North.

The monarch or leaders duty is to ensure security of their people.

She did SANSA a favor by "saving" Dany's own people?

Also, Dany and the rest of Westeros would have been wiped out by the WW and the army of the dead had she not joined with Jon's group trying to defend the living people.

As we saw, fire had NO effect on the NK, or on his WW's, the only thing it put down was the killing dead, and they could always make more warrior dead.  To kill the NK and end it all, they needed Bran/3ER to lure him, and someone to stab the NK exactly where the NK was stabbed to be made in the first place.  Dany wouldn't even know about Dragon Glass if Jon hadn't told her about it.

No props to Dany for saving her "own" people and the 7 kingdoms from certain death.  That was her job.  She helped, she gave extra time, that's it.

Had she not rushed off with a very injured dragon, she wouldn't have lost her second dragon, or her friend. 

Aside from all that?  She still may have done her thing and taken KL "by fire and blood" (as Targs do) because no one wants her, or her dragon(s) in Westeros.  The celebrations were when the Targs were defeated, not when they arrived.

[GraceK]

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany called herself Queen of all of Westeros.

That would include the North.

The monarch or leaders duty is to ensure security of their people.

I’ve seen this line used constantly against Dany all the time to minimize the help she gave the North. The fault with this logic? Is that apparently, they don’t see her as the Queen of all Westeros. Its a lose lose for Dany apparently right? So, as Queen of the Seven kingdoms, it’s her duty to ensure the safety of her people right? So when she provides Dragons, and armies to the North to fulfill her duty, and even fights alongside the northern soldiers and risks her life, she’s just doing what she supposed to do as Queen and Sansa shouldn’t be grateful? I mean, it’s not really a favor, because If Dany considers herself Queen, that’s part of the job description. Right? That’s the logic at play here? 

( meanwhile, Cersei , the sitting Queen is doing nothing and is actively working against  them )

So, the war is won! Yay! Dany has fulfilled her duty... but wait. It doesn’t matter , because Sansa doesn’t want to accept her as Queen, she wants the North to be independent, even though that’s the deal Dany made with Jon. And apparently that’s fine now because Dany is a foreign invader and the North doesn’t want to accept her as Queen and now she’s not even legitimate, and the stark sisters don’t trust her, and It doesn’t matter that she helped. 

Something doesn’t compute. Either she’s Queen of Westeros and in which case she has done her duty to the realm  and Sansa owes her fealty, like the rest of the North, or she’s not Queen, and she just did them a HUGE FUCKING FAVOR and helped save all their lives at great cost to herself  and Sansa is  being a bitch. If you accept that it’s her duty to defend the realm, than you accept that she’s Queen. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

[MarySNJ]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany called herself Queen of all of Westeros.

That would include the North.

The monarch or leaders duty is to ensure security of their people.

She did SANSA a favor by "saving" Dany's own people?

Also, Dany and the rest of Westeros would have been wiped out by the WW and the army of the dead had she not joined with Jon's group trying to defend the living people.

As we saw, fire had NO effect on the NK, or on his WW's, the only thing it put down was the killing dead, and they could always make more warrior dead.  To kill the NK and end it all, they needed Bran/3ER to lure him, and someone to stab the NK exactly where the NK was stabbed to be made in the first place.  Dany wouldn't even know about Dragon Glass if Jon hadn't told her about it.

No props to Dany for saving her "own" people and the 7 kingdoms from certain death.  That was her job.  She helped, she gave extra time, that's it.

Had she not rushed off with a very injured dragon, she wouldn't have lost her second dragon, or her friend. 

Aside from all that?  She still may have done her thing and taken KL "by fire and blood" (as Targs do) because no one wants her, or her dragon(s) in Westeros.  The celebrations were when the Targs were defeated, not when they arrived.

I agree. If Dany is the protector of the realm, as the queen of the seven kingdoms, then it is her duty to protect her people. Which she did at great cost, and Cersei who sits on the IT and claims to be the queen of the 7K and explicitly did not do. So if the North is truly independent then why would they accept Daenerys' help if she's not their queen? Because without it, they'd be dead.  So, it's not unreasonable for Dany to expect that the northern army will fulfill their obligation to the queen who provided them with protection. That's how it works, right? 

Sansa ultimately wants to rule and doesn't want to be ruled, so she "meh's" Dany's contribution to the war effort. And then she betrays Jon's secret to Tyrion, which if it gets out, puts Jon at heightened risk. This is puzzling since she claims to be worried about him going to King's Landing "because Stark men don't do well when they go south".  

[Umbelina]

It's how DANY sees herself that matters.

You don't fall down when someone does her own job, as self defined.

Dany doing her job (as she calls herself Queen) does not mean that MAKES her a queen in anyone's eyes except hers.

By that logic, every person in Winterfell that night could say they are King.  Or Arya could say she is Queen, since she's the one that saved them all.  Or Bran could, because the only reason the NK showed himself is because Bran acted as bait.

Dany only did what Dany was supposed to do by DANY's own description of herself.

[GraceK]

Except Jon, the King in the North, bent the knee to her. She’s not just some rando off the street screaming “ I’m queen!!!!”. She is a Queen. She has the armies , and the dragons to back up her claim, and the King in the North, who also, by the way, was just “ announced” King, gave up his crown and swore fealty and the North to her  cause. And judging by the crowds that gathered, and their arrival, they were expected. So they accepted it. It’s not comparable to Arya proclaiming herself Queen at all.  

[MarySNJ]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

It's how DANY sees herself that matters.

You don't fall down when someone does her own job, as self defined.

Dany doing her job (as she calls herself Queen) does not mean that MAKES her a queen in anyone's eyes except hers.

By that logic, every person in Winterfell that night could say they are King.  Or Arya could say she is Queen, since she's the one that saved them all.  Or Bran could, because the only reason the NK showed himself is because Bran acted as bait.

Dany only did what Dany was supposed to do by DANY's own description of herself.

4

No, it isn't just how Dany sees herself. She is a Queen (and Khaleesi) in her own right and a claimant to the IT. She has an army at her disposal, which she brought to the aid of the North who she considers her people. The King in the North bent the knee to her as Queen to complete the contract.  

It's just Sansa and Arya, and some xenophobic northerners don't want to accept her as their Queen, although they're willing to let her soldiers and dragons aid the war effort and die protecting them. 

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Except Jon, the King in the North, bent the knee to her. She’s not just some rando off the street screaming “ I’m queen!!!!”. She is a Queen. She has the armies , and the dragons to back up her claim, and the King in the North, who also, by the way, was just “ announced” King, gave up his crown and swore fealty and the North to her  cause. And judging by the crowds that gathered, and their arrival, they were expected. So they accepted it. It’s not comparable to Arya proclaiming herself Queen at all.  

Except Jon, when he did that, was unaware that he is actually, by Dany's logic, the rightful King of Westeros, and people in Westeros would probably welcome him, might even through flowers at his feet, if he declared.

Anyway, this is Sansa's thread.

I hope we get to see her reaction to Dany committing mass murder to subdue her Kingdoms, and FORCE them to bend the knee.

Too bad her brother is already dead, which may be why he bent the knee to Dany, like Beric, he's lost part of his mind and identity when being reborn.

5 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

No, it isn't just how Dany sees herself. She is a Queen (and Khaleesi) in her own right and a claimant to the IT. She has an army at her disposal, which she brought to the aid of the North who she considers her people. The King in the North bent the knee to her as Queen to complete the contract.  

It's just Sansa and Arya, and some xenophobic northerners don't want to accept her as their Queen, although they're willing to let her soldiers and dragons aid the war effort and die protecting them. 

She isn't though.  Sansa's brother Jon is.  By right.

That is, IF anyone in Westeros wanted Targs and their WMD dragons back, and they certainly do not.

Isn't breaking the wheel supposed to be about eliminating inherited power though?  Yes, why yes it is.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

So if the North is truly independent then why would they accept Daenerys' help if she's not their queen? Because without it, they'd be dead.  So, it's not unreasonable for Dany to expect that the northern army will fulfill their obligation to the queen who provided them with protection. That's how it works, right? 

There were two obligations there, though, right? One was to fulfill their obligation to her by helping her win the throne, which they were doing. Whether or not Sansa wanted the troops to go or not, her saying she expected them to rest didn't stop anything. Obviously the military leaders were never going to say they they could never march.

The other obligation is seeing her as their *rightful* queen because she helped them and there obviously they wouldn't any more than Dany sees Jon as her king because he's bringing Northern forces to help her win the throne.

The deal Jon made made her queen, so she had what she wanted in theory. But Jon obviously couldn't actually promise her that his people would feel about it the way Dany wanted them to, which was the problem. She was the queen in some sense (she wasn't on the IT throne), but she probably felt like she was being treated like any other ally.

But what Umbelina is saying about Dany's attitude is also true, especially compared to Jon. Jon will absolutely give up the crown--and definitely wouldn't think a crown was owed to him--for protecting the land. He does it because it needs to be protected.

4 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

It's just Sansa and Arya, and some xenophobic northerners don't want to accept her as their Queen, although they're willing to let her soldiers and dragons aid the war effort and die protecting them. 

You say this as if it's unreasonable for them to feel this way and I'm not sure why. Of course they're willing to let their soldiers and dragons aid in the war effort and even die protecting them. Dany's just as willing to let Northerners aid in her effort to gain a throne for herself even if they die in the effort. Being happy that someone is your queen doesn't logically follow from them helping you when you were being attacked by monsters. It's not crazy to help people make a stand against attacking monsters and *not* expect to be their queen afterwards. (The fact that those monsters would eventually have been a threat to everything else Dany wanted going without saying too.) Dany got the deal she was promised. She arrives at Winterfell with the KitN ordering everybody to see her as their queen. She's got Northern soldiers marching with her to KL. But she's insecure because people don't personally love her and some of them just bluntly say they don't want the North ruled by her.

[Advance35]

Quote

Isn't breaking the wheel supposed to be about eliminating inherited power though?  Yes, why yes it is.

For Dany, "breaking the wheel" means ALL power resides within her hands.  THAT'S ALL.  Even when you have reasonable concerns, they don't matter unless you pay suitable homage to "The Fire Starter."  Her pathological and pathetic need to be worshipped gives her the perception that, herself above all, is the natural order of things.   Dany's reaction to the lack of applause is very telling about who and what she has always been.  Sansa saw this in her.  And though Sansa's goal was to erode the security of Dany's reign, she pulled off the Scooby Doo mask, to the monster beneath.  Varys saw it and now Jon and Tyrion have as well.

Quote

There were two obligations there, though, right? One was to fulfill their obligation to her by helping her win the throne, which they were doing. Whether or not Sansa wanted the troops to go or not, her saying she expected them to rest didn't stop anything. Obviously the military leaders were never going to say they they could never march.

The Dragon Toddler doesn't like to wait.  "Waaaah, Jon make Sansa be quiet so nobody will  question me and the exhausted men will march."

Quote

The deal Jon made made her queen, so she had what she wanted in theory. But Jon obviously couldn't actually promise her that his people would feel about it the way Dany wanted them to, which was the problem. She was the queen in some sense (she wasn't on the IT throne), but she probably felt like she was being treated like any other ally.

Exactly.  Sansa *grudginly* went along with Jon's ill thought out deal.  Her home and land given away without her input.  She kept doing her job, running Winterfell, keeping the Vale onside so that their forces against the AOD wouldn't shrink, but she wasn't going to waive pom poms and was under no obligation too.

Because Sansa wasn't wearing the "I Worship Daenaerys Targaryen" button, legitament concerns went unanswered and we saw how that worked out for the "Mother of No Patience."

Quote

She's got Northern soldiers marching with her to KL. But she's insecure because people don't personally love her and some of them just bluntly say they don't want the North ruled by her.

In a nutshell.  Sansa had to move when she did, once Dany is *securely* on the throne it would be too late.  She needed to weaken her on the road there.   Sansa couldn't and wouldn't strike at her through a military fashion but she could work to cripple what would KEEP Daenerys on the Throne, before Daenaerys entered her "Burn them all mindset."

But Sansa and other Northerners didn't want to help "Mhysa" crowd surf and look at how the toddler reacted.

[GodsBeloved]

16 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

So if the North is truly independent then why would they accept Daenerys' help if she's not their queen? Because without it, they'd be dead.  So, it's not unreasonable for Dany to expect that the northern army will fulfill their obligation to the queen who provided them with protection. That's how it works, right? 

The North may not want Daenerys as their queen but Jon ceded them to her. They want their independence but becaue of Jon they don't truly have it right now.

Daenerys claiming to be Queen of the 7 kingdoms (Cercei was on the IT/Queen at the time) and Jon ceding the North to her puts the ball in her court IMO.

OK you say you are Queen. Part of that means you are suppose to be protector of the realm. If you are protector then help protect. I say help because the North had skin in the game too and now we know that Daenerys and her forces did not have what it took to take down the NK. They helped in reaching the final goal, YES they helped but when all was said and done, the NK was taken down by the Northerners and their weapons (the bait, the knowledge of what would kill the NK, the tools to kill the NK).

The North, aside from Jon and maybe others we didn't see, may not want to be ruled over/may want their independence but it would have been beyond stupid to refuse aide from Daenerys. Without the dragon glass and dragon fire to help kill the wights, they would have been at more of a disadvantage of holding the wights off so there was time for Bran to lure the NK and Arya to kill him.

Accepting aide doesn't mean the North is now obligated to want to be ruled over. And I say want because as has been stated, Jon ceded the North to Daenerys, so for now, in spite of what the North wants (their independence) they don't have it thanks to Jon.

Edited May 15, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

9 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Sansa ultimately wants to rule and doesn't want to be ruled, so she "meh's" Dany's contribution to the war effort. And then she betrays Jon's secret to Tyrion, which if it gets out, puts Jon at heightened risk. This is puzzling since she claims to be worried about him going to King's Landing "because Stark men don't do well when they go south".  

Are you saying Sansa knows or at least believes Daenerys will have Jon killed if his true identity got out?

Edited May 15, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Heathrowe]

40 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Are you saying Sansa knows or at least believes Daenerys will have Jon killed if his true identity got out?

Don't we all think that now? 

If Jon's not her lover/future husband - why would Dany let someone with a strong claim to the throne linger around?

[GodsBeloved]

14 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

Don't we all think that now? 

If Jon's not her lover/future husband - why would Dany let someone with a strong claim to the throne linger around?

Well ...

I just need my remaining Starks, Jon included, to be OK.

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

Don't we all think that now? 

If Jon's not her lover/future husband - why would Dany let someone with a strong claim to the throne linger around?

Then Jon's in danger already, even before Sansa tells anyone, because as soon as he realized he was Dany's nephew, he stopped being capable of being her lover/future husband. Things were going to shit between them before Sansa told anyone anything.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I agree. If Dany is the protector of the realm, as the queen of the seven kingdoms, then it is her duty to protect her people. Which she did at great cost, and Cersei who sits on the IT and claims to be the queen of the 7K and explicitly did not do. So if the North is truly independent then why would they accept Daenerys' help if she's not their queen? Because without it, they'd be dead.  So, it's not unreasonable for Dany to expect that the northern army will fulfill their obligation to the queen who provided them with protection. That's how it works, right? 

Sansa ultimately wants to rule and doesn't want to be ruled, so she "meh's" Dany's contribution to the war effort. And then she betrays Jon's secret to Tyrion, which if it gets out, puts Jon at heightened risk. This is puzzling since she claims to be worried about him going to King's Landing "because Stark men don't do well when they go south".  

Well she can call herself Queen all she wants, her family was rightly deposed as despots.

So she have to earn her way back, going there and basically telling a region and it's principle family that suffered from her fathers action, you will bend the knee, when I'm done isn't going to endear  herself to them.

Jon's life was in danger the second Bran and Sam discovered the information, and the second Jon told Dani in the crypt, her action and body language made that so.

The only question I have, was Jon involved in anything of that cut away scene.

If Bran wants even his own sister to die, he's a shitty brother, and Arya's not as good as she thinks she is. 

I think this is a group plan, just not sure if Jon's involved.

Sansa's not the one going for that chair for her self, she doesn't want it, no Stark does.

Edited May 15, 2019 by GrailKing

[Advance35]

https://www.hypable.com/daenerys-vs-sansa-the-things-we-do-for-love-or-lack-thereof/

I found the above very interesting even if I'm not sure I agree with it.

I still haven't decided what I think Sansa's outlook on love is.  When we first met the character, Sansa's goal was "true love" or romantic, but now......I question just what it means to her.   I don't think she has the ingrained aversion that Cersei does, but Sansa doesn't seem to value it either.

Maybe it's all the time she spent surrounded by nothing but enemies, there is a wall between Sansa and the rest of the world.  Emotion takes a backseat to what she finds to be practical or prudent.  Whether that's for good or for ill in the long-term is up for debate.

It does reaffirm my perspective on why Dany saying she came "because I love your brother." means so little to Sansa.

Again, not sure I agree with everything but an interesting read all the same.

[Indi]

Here's what I think:

Sansa grew up surrounded by family and love. She was also being groomed to marry a high Lord or a Prince, so, of course, she had some romantic ideas about love, but I think it was more about adventure, than the down to earth thing (not surprising, since she was barely a teenager). She fantasized about leaving Winterfell and travel south, to that wonderful place, where all the beautiful ladies, handsome knights and princes lived. Well, we all know, what happened, when she finally did. The fantasy didn't take long to turn into the darkest nightmare. Romantic love is a trap and the worst poison (paraphrasing Cercei in one of her lessons to Sansa).

For her, home and family means survival and safety. I can't imagine her marrying for love. It will be a very carefully arranged marriage, although I think she will end up loving her husband eventually if she chooses wisely and I'm sure she will. That is, if she survives the finale, of course!

[Heathrowe]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

Then Jon's in danger already, even before Sansa tells anyone, because as soon as he realized he was Dany's nephew, he stopped being capable of being her lover/future husband. Things were going to shit between them before Sansa told anyone anything.

That's what I think.

And it's either die or be the better choice.

[dirtypop90]

2 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

That's what I think.

And it's either die or be the better choice.

Sansa had the sense to realize this, unlike Jon. I still do not understand if/why he thought he could still just hang around Dany or in the North after learning this news. If he doesn't want to be King, he would have to move far far far away and essentially go on the run like Dany and her brother did.  

[Advance35]

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I can't imagine her marrying for love. It will be a very carefully arranged marriage, although I think she will end up loving her husband eventually if she chooses wisely and I'm sure she will.

I kind of like that, that aspect of Sansa will remain open to interpretation of the viewer/reader.  Some people think she will never pursue any kind of love again, others think, given time she may consider it.  I'm not sure where I fall.   I think someone would have to come into her life and she would need to gradually grow to care for them.  Whether that would turn into love, who can say.   They would also HAVE to serve a political benefit for House Stark, I think that aspect would be non-negotiable.

Now that's it's the end of the road, for all their missteps I am looking forward to seeing how all of this ends.  Crossing my fingers that Sansa lives through the finale.   Also hoping she gets to have a final scene with Tyrion, Jon and Arya.

[merrick715]

22 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I still haven't decided what I think Sansa's outlook on love is.  When we first met the character, Sansa's goal was "true love" or romantic, but now......I question just what it means to her.   I don't think she has the ingrained aversion that Cersei does, but Sansa doesn't seem to value it either.

Sansa fits the definition of a cynical romantic, to a tee. 

[Indi]

52 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I kind of like that, that aspect of Sansa will remain open to interpretation of the viewer/reader.  Some people think she will never pursue any kind of love again, others think, given time she may consider it.  I'm not sure where I fall.   I think someone would have to come into her life and she would need to gradually grow to care for them.  Whether that would turn into love, who can say.   They would also HAVE to serve a political benefit for House Stark, I think that aspect would be non-negotiable.

Now that's it's the end of the road, for all their missteps I am looking forward to seeing how all of this ends.  Crossing my fingers that Sansa lives through the finale.   Also hoping she gets to have a final scene with Tyrion, Jon and Arya.

Absolutely! I can't imagine it going any other way. She will rebuild Winterfell, house and family.

I don't mind the lack of romantic love for her. The show has destroyed every romantic couple and there haven't been that many to begin with. It's like the show agrees with Cersei and her cynical views on love.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:45 PM, MarySNJ said:

I agree. If Dany is the protector of the realm, as the queen of the seven kingdoms, then it is her duty to protect her people. Which she did at great cost, and Cersei who sits on the IT and claims to be the queen of the 7K and explicitly did not do. So if the North is truly independent then why would they accept Daenerys' help if she's not their queen? Because without it, they'd be dead.  So, it's not unreasonable for Dany to expect that the northern army will fulfill their obligation to the queen who provided them with protection. That's how it works, right?  

Sansa ultimately wants to rule and doesn't want to be ruled, so she "meh's" Dany's contribution to the war effort. And then she betrays Jon's secret to Tyrion, which if it gets out, puts Jon at heightened risk. This is puzzling since she claims to be worried about him going to King's Landing "because Stark men don't do well when they go south".  

All of this is why I hate the Sansa character at this point. Which is a shame, because I still liked her last season despite how much people seemed to be against the character in the episode threads. I didn't even mind Sansa's early coldness towards Dany this season. Her actions after the battle against the Night King are what completely turned me against the character, tbh. It's a real shame the books will never be written, because I'd like to know the details to how everything actually happens instead of the show's nonsense.

[Katsullivan]

6 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

It's a real shame the books will never be written, because I'd like to know the details to how everything actually happens instead of the show's nonsense.

In the books, Sansa is in the Vale poisoning Sweetrobin and learning the "game" while Theon has helped Jeyne Poole escape her marriage from Ramsey. The Red Letter has already been sent. Most importantly, GRRM isn't going to dumb down other characters to prop up Sansa. 

So rest assured. Nothing in the show about Sansa is going to happen in the books.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Katsullivan

[Umbelina]

11 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

In the books, Sansa is in the Vale poisoning Sweetrobin and learning the "game" while Theon has helped Jeyne Poole escape her marriage from Ramsey. The Red Letter has already been sent. Most importantly, GRRM isn't going to dumb down other characters to prop up Sansa. 

So rest assured. Nothing in the show about Sansa is going to happen in the books.

Characters were NOT dumbed down to prop up Sansa.

Characters were dumbed down to speed this story along and get spectacular looking but completely nonsensical giant battles scenes.  Sansa luckily in the mad rush to a finale, was able to keep the senses she had, unlike so many other characters on the show that had to become complete fools for D&D to end this so fast, yet still get in tons of visual effects and WAR!!!  Woo!

Edited May 17, 2019 by Umbelina
the very important NOT

[Advance35]

I honestly shudder at the thought of Sansa being written as one of Dany's Fan Club Members.  Just about everyone in Winterfell worshiped that pyromaniac, Sansa being so anti was a relief to me.

That the writers managed to make her motivation, in line with her character (according to some) points to at least one thing they got right this season.   Certain Stans hate Sansa (maybe they always did) because she doesn't "bow" to a supposed icon.

Characters are supposed to bring out a reaction in the audience.  Sansa has succeeded at that,  She still has just as many haters and just as many lovers.

[slf]

On 5/11/2019 at 12:21 PM, SilverStormm said:

Henry Tudor disagrees. It happened, it's historical fact.

Henry Vll having lived most of his life outside of England very much was used against him throughout his reign, where he had to repeatedly put down rebellions.

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Dany grew up in an entire different continent and culture for most of her life. No one knows her in Westeros and she doesn't know Westeros. I was also born in a different country, than the one I've lived since I was 4. Now, if I thought I should conquer and rule over my country of birth and expect anything but resistance andloathing, I think people would be justified in calling me delusional.

@Indi Right. Sansa's reaction is hardly surprising. Foreign conquerers are generally not welcomed with open arms, and never by everyone.

I'll be honest, after watching Sansa get shat on for years because, oh my god why isn't this thirteen year responding this exact way that I, an adult, think I would? Oh my god, how dare she not put the feelings of this man first when his family slaughtered her father, mother, and brother and she is their hostage? Eh, fuck them all up, I say. I do not give one iota about Sansa not wanting to braid hair with someone. Sansa has seen dictators, killers, and other unsavory sorts, manipulate their way to the top. She is naturally wary of such people. Good for her. I hope she keeps on, be rude to everyone, never bend the knee again. This is all just entertainment, like football, and Sansa is my favorite team and I want her to win and I do not care how things turn out for anyone else, how they lose or why.

Edited May 17, 2019 by slf

[Meredith Quill]

4 minutes ago, slf said:

Henry Vll having lived most of his life outside of England very much was used against him throughout his reign, where he had to repeatedly put down rebellions.

This is the very point I was making. Despite not being raised in England for most of his life up until that point, he became a successful and ultimately, accepted, monarch anyway.

[slf]

55 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

This is the very point I was making. Despite not being raised in England for most of his life up until that point, he became a successful and ultimately, accepted, monarch anyway.

...We have very different definitions of "accepted", then. His wife was always vastly more liked, outright popular really, than he ever was.

He was King, absolutely, by conquest. But he wasn't liked or much accepted and his being seen as a foreigner was part of that.

Edited May 17, 2019 by slf

[Meredith Quill]

15 minutes ago, slf said:

...We have very different definitions of "accepted", then. His wife was always vastly more liked, outright popular really, than he ever was. 

I never said he was popular. You can accept something without being happy or pleased about it. I accept that I have to pay tax, doesn't mean I'm pleased to pay tax...

15 minutes ago, slf said:

He was King, absolutely, by conquest. But he wasn't liked or much accepted and his being seen as a foreigner was part of that.

He ended up being accepted, whether begrudgingly or not. The original point being debated was whether someone growing up elsewhere means they have no right to rule and should GTFO. Historical precedence exists for that precise situation and in both instances I cited, they ruled and ruled successfully, regardless of whether it was 'right or wrong' of them to conquer in the first place. Happiness plays little part in the games of monarchs.

But this is going off topic so I'll leave it at that.

[merrick715]

18 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

So rest assured. Nothing in the show about Sansa is going to happen in the books.

George, is that you? That's a bold prediction considering that Martin has said the endings for the major book characters will be the same on the show.  Their journeys might be different, but their endgames aren't

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This is all just entertainment, like football, and Sansa is my favorite team and I want her to win and I do not care how things turn out for anyone else, how they lose or why.

Can I just say, I find your candor refreshing? I wish more people would do that with characters they love or they hate.

Edited May 17, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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I'll be honest, after watching Sansa get shat on for years because, oh my god why isn't this thirteen year responding this exact way that I, an adult, think I would? Oh my god, how dare she not put the feelings of this man first when his family slaughtered her father, mother, and brother and she is their hostage? Eh, fuck them all up, I say. I do not give one iota about Sansa not wanting to braid hair with someone. Sansa has seen dictators, killers, and other unsavory sorts, manipulate their way to the top. She is naturally wary of such people. Good for her. I hope she keeps on, be rude to everyone, never bend the knee again. This is all just entertainment, like football, and Sansa is my favorite team and I want her to win and I do not care how things turn out for anyone else, how they lose or why.

I don't even know what to say.  You summed up my feelings on the whole thing. LOL.  If there was a t-shirt this could fit on, I would wear it.   Sansa's day's of blindly and automatically "Yes, your grace." Are long over.  She doesn't care if Jon is in love with Dany, she's entitled to her feelings on having the North handed off on a silver platter.  She didn't travel with Littlefinger, survive Lysa, endure Ramsay and go castle to castle for allies, so Winterfell/The North could be added to Dany's Kingdom Collection.  I totally understand her salt.  But you put it better than I ever could.

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George, is that you? That's a bold prediction considering that Martin has said the endings for the major book characters will be the same on the show.  Their journeys might be different, but their endgames aren't

THIS. The thing is, I know that I will probably prefer the book version of Sansa's journey.  The Vale setting with Littlefinger, Sansa, Harry, Robin, Luthor, Yon Royce, Tourneys, Seductions, Conspiracies, potential kidnappings, Highborn Feasts.  There is more intrigue in TWOW Alayne chapter than in Seasons 6 + 7 of the show combined.  

But GRRM just can't seem to move forward.  D&D are incidental to me but I can't be too mad because at least now we know.    

[merrick715]

9 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

THIS. The thing is, I know that I will probably prefer the book version of Sansa's journey.  The Vale setting with Littlefinger, Sansa, Harry, Robin, Luthor, Yon Royce, Tourneys, Seductions, Conspiracies, potential kidnappings, Highborn Feasts.  There is more intrigue in TWOW Alayne chapter than in Seasons 6 + 7 of the show combined.  

But GRRM just can't seem to move forward.  D&D are incidental to me but I can't be too mad because at least now we know.

I feel like there are some clues from seasons five, six, and seven of the show, that point to how things go down for book Sansa in the Vale. Ultimately, I do think Sansa is going to save Robert from Petyr, and she'll end up marrying Harry. Those two things will be what prompts the lords of the Vale to support her in retaking Winterfell. I also think Sansa and Jon will have the first sibling reunion. 

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

The thing is, I know that I will probably prefer the book version of Sansa's journey.  The Vale setting with Littlefinger, Sansa, Harry, Robin, Luthor, Yon Royce, Tourneys, Seductions, Conspiracies, potential kidnappings, Highborn Feasts.  There is more intrigue in TWOW Alayne chapter than in Seasons 6 + 7 of the show combined.  

I love Sansa in the Vale. I love her Winds of Winter chapter. And if GRRM ever finishes the books (which he won't), the best thing is that Sansa will not be marrying Ramsey. Forget Dany going mad queen, Sansa marrying Ramsey may have been the worst storyline of the show. 

15 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

I feel like there are some clues from seasons five, six, and seven of the show, that point to how things go down for book Sansa in the Vale. Ultimately, I do think Sansa is going to save Robert from Petyr, and she'll end up marrying Harry. Those two things will be what prompts the lords of the Vale to support her in retaking Winterfell. I also think Sansa and Jon will have the first sibling reunion. 

I also think she'll marry Harry. I'm going to put this in spoilers just in case.

Spoiler

I do think her WoW chapter shows her becoming manipulative, perhaps quite like Cersei. Read the scene with her and Harry, and how she cons Harry into asking her to the feast. This is why I think Sansa could become a mini-Cersei.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I never said he was popular. You can accept something without being happy or pleased about it. I accept that I have to pay tax, doesn't mean I'm pleased to pay tax...

Isn't this the issue with Dany as expressed by Sansa, though? Dany has been accepted as queen officially. Jon bent the knee. The Northerners are marching in support of her. But Sansa's being snotty about it and openly telling Dany she doesn't want the North to be ruled by her, so she's not accepted. 

Dany isn't Henry VII or Cersei in that sense. She does want to be embraced as the queen, doesn't she? Sansa's the most obvious (bitch)face of how she isn't.

[Advance35]

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I feel like there are some clues from seasons five, six, and seven of the show, that point to how things go down for book Sansa in the Vale. Ultimately, I do think Sansa is going to save Robert from Petyr, and she'll end up marrying Harry. Those two things will be what prompts the lords of the Vale to support her in retaking Winterfell. I also think Sansa and Jon will have the first sibling reunion. 

Maybe and it's been a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Littlefiner going to wait to marry Sansa to Harry until Robin was dead?  For some reason I didn't think he was going to have Sansa marry until Harry was legally, the heir to the Kingdom.

I've always thought Sansa would be the first sibling Jon would reunite with.   If for no reason, in (I think Book 5) he lamented having to get to the Vale and petitioning Lady Arryn for food that could be given to the Nightswatch.  I think the Vale is going to be a very prominent location (or would be in future books) The North is in shambles, as is the Riverlands, The Stormlands are at war, as are the Crownlands (in addition to being under the thumb of the High Sparrow), Highgarden (The Reach) is fighting a war and is being attacked by the Iron Born.

In terms of food and depending on the kind of hits The Reach takes in the next books, The Vale could be the best game in town.

Also FYI:  The part in AFFC when Littlefinger describes the inheritance hierarchy of the Vale, is not to be believed.  Intriguing, byzantine, dark but humorous.   I would have loved seeing Aiden G. work with some of the book characters monologues. lol

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I also think she'll marry Harry. I'm going to put this in spoilers just in case.

My first thought was that I'm not sure if I see her tilting that far.  But who knows, in addition to everything going on with Harry and Robyn, Sansa will also have to deal with Ser Shadrich, Lyn Cobray and Myranda, three characters who look like they are going to be more foe then friend.

What I liked about GRRM is he was shaping Sansa up to be the perfect co-conspirator.  In addition to working to seduce Harry the Heir, Sansa knows about one High Lord who's Brother is plotting to murder him and she's getting a ring side seat to the way Littlefinger wheels and deals in terms of finance.   I would have really liked if Petyr and Sansa had stayed together in Season 5.   And from a distance, continued to pull strings the way he does in the books.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Advance35

[screamin]

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I feel like there are some clues from seasons five, six, and seven of the show, that point to how things go down for book Sansa in the Vale. Ultimately, I do think Sansa is going to save Robert from Petyr, and she'll end up marrying Harry. Those two things will be what prompts the lords of the Vale to support her in retaking Winterfell. I also think Sansa and Jon will have the first sibling reunion. 

I agree she'll try to save Robin, which will lead to the break with LF. I'm not so sure about the marriage to Harry. Book Sansa has already said she isn't sure she WANTS to be married. She might've fallen hard for someone like Harry at the beginning of the series, but I think her last chapter shows she now clearly sees his more dickish attributes, and even through they make it easier for her to manipulate him, she also kind of despises him for them.

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

 

Spoiler

I do think her WoW chapter shows her becoming manipulative, perhaps quite like Cersei. Read the scene with her and Harry, and how she cons Harry into asking her to the feast. This is why I think Sansa could become a mini-Cersei.

Spoiler

I don't think "manipulative" automatically equals "Cersei." Everyone manipulates to a greater or lesser extent, it's not intrinsically bad to do it.

Edited May 17, 2019 by screamin

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Maybe and it's been a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Littlefiner going to wait to marry Sansa to Harry until Robin was dead?  For some reason I didn't think he was going to have Sansa marry until Harry was legally, the heir to the Kingdom.

I've always thought Sansa would be the first sibling Jon would reunite with.   If for no reason, in (I think Book 5) he lamented having to get to the Vale and petitioning Lady Arryn for food that could be given to the Nightswatch.  I think the Vale is going to be a very prominent location (or would be in future books) The North is in shambles, as is the Riverlands, The Stormlands are at war, as are the Crownlands (in addition to being under the thumb of the High Sparrow), Highgarden (The Reach) is fighting a war and is being attacked by the Iron Born.

In terms of food and depending on the kind of hits The Reach takes in the next books, The Vale could be the best game in town.

Also FYI:  The part in AFFC when Littlefinger describes the inheritance hierarchy of the Vale, is not to be believed.  Intriguing, byzantine, dark but humorous.   I would have loved seeing Aiden G. work with some of the book characters monologues. lol

My first thought was that I'm not sure if I see her tilting that far.  But who knows, in addition to everything going on with Harry and Robyn, Sansa will also have to deal with Ser Shadrich, Lyn Cobray and Myranda, three characters who look like they are going to be more foe then friend.

What I liked about GRRM is he was shaping Sansa up to be the perfect co-conspirator.  In addition to working to seduce Harry the Heir, Sansa knows about one High Lord who's Brother is plotting to murder him and she's getting a ring side seat to the way Littlefinger wheels and deals in terms of finance.   I would have really liked if Petyr and Sansa had stayed together in Season 5.   And from a distance, continued to pull strings the way he does in the books.

Well said.

I loved the Vale and I would have found a way to be living there if at all possible.  It was by far the safest place to be when "Winter Comes."  It was defensible, it had prepared for decades, it wisely stayed out of all the various wars by the various Kings and Queens.  Yeah, the Lady in charge was nuts, but honestly, in one definition or other, weren't most of them? 

I also really loved the character of Petyr in the books.  I didn't like him in a romantic or personal way, I liked him for a two main reasons.

1. He was interesting and smart on the page, cynically looking at those who considered themselves his "betters" and looking at war as opportunity in an "I'd rather profit from this than die from it."  A touch of Rhett Butler before he goes off to join the losing army.
2. He earned what he had.  No one handed it to him.  Every step of the way he carefully navigated and infiltrated, and in most cases bested those who considered him "less than us."

I don't know if I agree that Sansa becomes Cersei-like, because book-Cersei is pretty much pure evil and pure selfishness.  I can see her becoming canny like Cersei, and that isn't a bad thing, we can, if smart enough, learn from all events/people in our lives, in some ways, maybe especially the most horrible ones.  I definitely think the experiences with Cersei are what make her see through Dany so quickly.  Then again, Lyanna seemed to see through the glitz and beauty and dragons to what could be beneath it all too. 

I don't think the North rejected her ONLY on the basis of "she is not one of us" at that point, they had been at war for a long time, this King or that Queen was going to have a hard time winning them over no matter what, especially one they didn't know.

The odd thing for me about this ending?  Going in I was just thrilled we were going to get one, one that GRRM explained to them.  It wasn't just an "outline" he sat down with them for hours and discussed it. 

I didn't want to read any more of his books, if they ever came.  I found him petulant and caught up in his own fan-worship, and egotistical, and snippy about people who wanted an ending to the hours and years of waiting.  In many ways the books were more of an investment that the show.  The certainly filled more hours, and we aren't even close to an ending there.  It's been 23 years dude.

If he had said (as he is beginning to now) "Hey, I'm really struggling here, and I am deeply sorry to those of you who have been so patient with me, and who counted on me to finish this tale." it would have been less annoying.  Instead he goes off and makes more millions writing all kinds of books, editing fan stuff, going to conventions and blogging about football.   Then this aging man, who frankly could die any day, legally sets it up that no one may finish his books if he does die.  I mean, the hell?

OK, back to the point. 

NOW?  I WANT to read the books if they ever come.  I can see how this ending will work.  I may very well love this ending in GRRM's hands. 

I LOVE having a bare-bones version because I have been in his head when his writing was at it's best, I know he can do this, and do it well.  Also, we WILL get all the answers D and D are leaving out and/or skipping over.

As for the show?  I understand the anger at the showrunners, and I don't find it completely out of left field, at least as far as pacing, answers, and character development/understanding.  I think nearly all of the issues boil down to the mad rush to end this.

That part?  Is on them.  No one asked them to cram everything into 6 long episodes.  THEY chose to do that.  THEY chose to have "Winter!" last one evening.  THEY chose to have smart people eat stupid pills to force a fast ending.  THEY chose spectacle over character being believable, or frankly, even interesting.

The wanted the longest battles ever, or the most people on fire ever, much more than they wanted Tyrion, Varys, Jon, Dany, Jaime, and many others, especially the 3ER to act in interesting or believable ways. 

[Colorful Mess]

I'm really glad Sansa stood against Dany as queen. Maybe she has a special tyrant radar after hanging around so many of them. 

[TheGreenKnight]

I can't say I admire her for her coldness towards Dany in any way. It made sense at first for her to be cold towards anyone--good, bad, Dany or otherwise--who might have power above her family's after her experiences with Cersei, Joffrey, Littlefinger, and Ramsay. That said, Dany's actions at the end of E5 couldn't have been foreseen by a vast number of viewers, much less Sansa and can't explain away the character's ingratitude or the jeopardy she put her family in for the sake of a petty power move after this stranger aided them in the battle with the Night King. If Sansa truly feared Dany could be like Cersei--and a Cersei with dragons--does it explain her behavior of being so openly against her? How would she have expected Cersei to react--wouldn't that have made them a target if they weren't before or a bigger target? 

Her actions are unjustifiable regardless of what the writers wanted Dany to do later, in the same way that Varys' actions were unjustifiable to me--and the same way Dany's own actions in going on a rampage were unjustifiable and in her case entirely unexplained. This kind of ending has only degraded many of the characters that kept me watching through 8 seasons (Jon, Sansa, Dany, Varys, Tyrion). And even that would have been a suitable ending for this kind of show if it had happened in a way that made any sense at all.

[slf]

Eh, I don't think it was unjustifiable. Sansa has seen more than her fair share of tyrants, she knows how they work. Dany basically wanted the North in exchange for helping stop the NK, rather than forming an alliance because it was the right thing to do for everyone including Dany. I doubt Sansa saw that as anything more than one or two notches above Cersei's own behavior. As Jon had already bent the knee I doubt Sansa saw a risk to not personally embracing Dany. Sansa being rude is only a risk if you're making the argument that Dany is already unstable and willing to do something aggressive because one person doesn't like her.

[Indi]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I'm really glad Sansa stood against Dany as queen. Maybe she has a special tyrant radar after hanging around so many of them. 

Me too. I don't think she has any kind of radar, but a logical distrust of anyone coming to her home with weapons of mass destruction, that could be deployed against her people for not wanting Dany's rule.  

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I can't say I admire her for her coldness towards Dany in any way. It made sense at first for her to be cold towards anyone--good, bad, Dany or otherwise--who might have power above her family's after her experiences with Cersei, Joffrey, Littlefinger, and Ramsay. That said, Dany's actions at the end of E5 couldn't have been foreseen by a vast number of viewers, much less Sansa and can't explain away the character's ingratitude or the jeopardy she put her family in for the sake of a petty power move after this stranger aided them in the battle with the Night King. If Sansa truly feared Dany could be like Cersei--and a Cersei with dragons--does it explain her behavior of being so openly against her? How would she have expected Cersei to react--wouldn't that have made them a target if they weren't before or a bigger target? 

I don't admire or hate Sansa for her coldness towards Dany after the battle, after all, what had changed? Absolutely nothing. Dany was still the same imperialist, that threatened her people's wishes to remain independent. 

Part of the reason of doing it openly was, of course, bad writing. We needed to see a counterpoint to Jon The Bootlicker and Enabler, so we had Sansa The Defiant and Rude, since everyone else was more or less silent, even if they shared Sansa's dislike (Arya, for instance). 

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Her actions are unjustifiable regardless of what the writers wanted Dany to do later, in the same way that Varys' actions were unjustifiable to me--and the same way Dany's own actions in going on a rampage were unjustifiable and in her case entirely unexplained. This kind of ending has only degraded many of the characters that kept me watching through 8 seasons (Jon, Sansa, Dany, Varys, Tyrion). And even that would have been a suitable ending for this kind of show if it had happened in a way that made any sense at all.

I think they were perfectly justifiable and, IMO, it wouldn't have made sense for Sansa to accept Dany's rule lying down. Jon betrayed the North and she did, what she felt was right, to challenge Dany's claim.

[ShellsandCheese]

Eh. Jon was KITN, he bent the knee. If Sansa didn’t like it, she should have raised an army of northern men to fight for independence. Quite frankly, if things hadn’t gone to shit with Dany and Jon - the North while part of the seven kingdoms would have been left largely alone. 

It was actually Sansa’s actions here that proved she’s an amateur. Jon doesn’t want it. He didn’t even want to be KITN, that’s one of the reasons why he bent the knee. Let’s assume that Dany truly was mad, imagine the danger Sansa put Jon in - she literally put a target in his back - if Dany really and truly were like her father, she would have quickly gotten rid of Jon and solved that pesky problem. That still leaves Sansa back at square one. Yara was a better negotiator than Sansa for goodness sake. 

I actually think Dany and Sansa are more similar than they are different and neither would be a good ruler. Sansa made some blunders at the end of season season for example when she wanted to take away the ancestral homes of the Umbers and the Karstarks. And don’t even get me started on the fact that no one raised objections to having women and children shelter in a crypt while fighting an opponent who can raise the dead. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[BooBear]

10 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

It was actually Sansa’s actions here that proved she’s an amateur. Jon doesn’t want it. He didn’t even want to be KITN, that’s one of the reasons why he bent the knee. Let’s assume that Dany truly was mad, imagine the danger Sansa put Jon in - she literally put a target in his back -

And the next person Dany would go after - after Jon - would have been Sansa.

Here is what I don't  under stand... why is the discussion about Northern Independence being done right now? I mean is this the time? Sansa put it out there and now if she was playing the game, she should show loyalty to Dany. Get Dany on the throne and then, when the time is right, ask again. Perhaps take less than full independence with the goal of moving toward that if things go well.

How is it a game to demand northern independence and then be upset when it isn't immediately given up? That is a child's behavior. No different than Sansa taking a hiss fit when Ned wanted her to go home in season one.

[Indi]

9 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Eh. Jon was KITN, he bent the knee. If Sansa didn’t like it, she should have raised an army of northern men to fight for independence. Quite frankly, if things hadn’t gone to shit with Dany and Jon - the North while part of the seven kingdoms would have been left largely alone. 

That reminds me of a silly old movie about spies, the main characters spying for opposite sides. A confederate officer, who infiltrates the enemy's lines and an actress, who befriends a family of high ranking confederates. They fall in love, but towards the end he finds out, she is responsible for the losses on his side and proceeds to shame her for using less than "honorable" means, meaning feminine ways, as opposed to him, the manly man. She accepted the criticism meekly, of course. And I say, fuck that! People use the tools they can. There was no way Sansa could raise an army in such short time and there was no need to, when a few strategic moves could have had a better chance of taking out Danny without a bloodbath.

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It was actually Sansa’s actions here that proved she’s an amateur. Jon doesn’t want it. He didn’t even want to be KITN, that’s one of the reasons why he bent the knee. Let’s assume that Dany truly was mad, imagine the danger Sansa put Jon in - she literally put a target in his back - if Dany really and truly were like her father, she would have quickly gotten rid of Jon and solved that pesky problem. That still leaves Sansa back at square one. Yara was a better negotiator than Sansa for goodness sake. 

She is an amateur, indeed. If she wasn't, she would have hidden her true feelings and maneuvered without putting a target on her back. However, it was Jon, who put that target on his back, the moment he told Dany, he's a Targ. Danny is the one, who wants the IT at all costs, not Sansa. Once Jon couldn't reciprocate Danny's love, how long would Dany let him live?

Jon doesn't want the IT? Who cares, what that idiot wants?

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I actually think Dany and Sansa are more similar than they are different and neither would be a good ruler. Sansa made some blunders at the end of season season for example when she wanted to take away the ancestral homes of the Umbers and the Karstarks. And don’t even get me started on the fact that no one raised objections to having women and children shelter in a crypt while fighting an opponent who can raise the dead. 

I never wanted Dany or Sansa on the IT, so... Luckily one of them is not even trying. There was only one queen worthy of the IT for me and she's dead. RIP Margaery.

The crypts thing was one example of the frustratingly stupid writing, we're suffering this season.