Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer

[Neko]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm going to predict next season the first time we see Jaime will be him visiting the aftermath of the destruction Cersei caused. The wreckage and the burned and injured civilians.

I'm thinking they'll FF through that and show Jaime *trying* to love Cersei after what she's done, because that's all he knows and giving up on that love will be terrifying.  He won't be able to do it, of course, but he will try, and he will be a hollow shell of a man once he finally realizes it's futile. 

[Hecate7]

17 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm going to predict next season the first time we see Jaime will be him visiting the aftermath of the destruction Cersei caused. The wreckage and the burned and injured civilians.

Maybe. Or maybe we'll get a scene of the two of them where he asks her what happened.

[BlackberryJam]

I think we'll get a bit of a time jump and Jaime will be trying to keep the city together and appalled at what his sister has become.

[qtpye]

On 6/27/2016 at 10:31 PM, Umbelina said:

Book Jamie honestly loves his sister and his children.  He sacrificed everything for her and for them.  It's not just sex, and it was certainly never rape.  The show utterly failed to address any of this, and the fact that there was almost no chemistry at all between the two actors also hurt things.  I blame Lena for that, as well as the horrible writing.  Cersei, who was always mad, but at least in the books, in the beginning really did love Jamie at the start had a much more complex and fascinating story than the show even tried to have. 

Jamie was, at heart, a profoundly honorable man, who had to make awful choices.  By the end, though he was always completely loyal to Cersei, he was a broken man, broken by his foolishness in the trust he had in his sister/lover.  He gave up everything for her, his inheritance, his chance to have his own children, to be honestly loved, instead of used and manipulated by this damaged and incredibly shallow, ruthless, manipulative, and horrible woman.  He fucked up his entire life for a romantic dream, and was deeply shattered and embarrassed by that.  She needed him so much when they were children, no mother, the stern father who didn't understand or support any of her gifts other than her exploitable beauty in a political marriage.  Jamie understood her hopes and dreams and they shared absolutely everything, he was her protector long before he ever took it on officially.

The problem is on the show Jamie is still in thrall of his sister (though the burning of the Sept could change things).  The fact that show Jamie is so blind to all his sister,s faults makes him look like an idiot.

He thinks his sister fiercely protects her children...well the arming of the faith militant, just to spite Margery, destroyed any chance Tommen had of being a good ruler.  She is brutally mean and stupid woman who can not think past her wants and desires.

Jamie has enabled her greatly.  Many people fault Tywin for Cersei's behavior, but I do not agree with it ( a point I have made on the Cersei thread).  Tywin loved and respected his wife.  He gave Arya a lot of respect (not knowing who she was) and made her his cup bearer.

Cersei thinks Tywin does not respect her because she is a woman.  Tywin does not respect her, because she is nasty brute.

Jamie, on the other hand, excused everything Cersei does.  He has enabled her to become what she is today,

[Ambrosefolly]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

The problem is on the show Jamie is still in thrall of his sister (though the burning of the Sept could change things).  The fact that show Jamie is so blind to all his sister,s faults makes him look like an idiot.

He thinks his sister fiercely protects her children...well the arming of the faith militant, just to spite Margery, destroyed any chance Tommen had of being a good ruler.  She is brutally mean and stupid woman who can not think past her wants and desires.

Jamie has enabled her greatly.  Many people fault Tywin for Cersei's behavior, but I do not agree with it ( a point I have made on the Cersei thread).  Tywin loved and respected his wife.  He gave Arya a lot of respect (not knowing who she was) and made her his cup bearer.

Cersei thinks Tywin does not respect her because she is a woman.  Tywin does not respect her, because she is nasty brute.

Jamie, on the other hand, excused everything Cersei does.  He has enabled her to become what she is today,

A nasty brute he needed to secure a higher position for himself, and didn't seem he remotely cared about her to be an effective consort and mother to future lords/kings. 

Jaime was a kid when he developed his weird relationship with his sister, because Tywin was too busy being the Hand while they were raised by servants at Casterly Rock and when he was around and being a nasty jerk to them. Tyrion had an innate ability to be as intelligent and politically cunning and he still treated him like shit. He probably like Arya because she was both a servant and stranger and I am sure it would have changed on a dime if he found out who she really was. Maybe if he was less of a bastard to all of his kids, the bond between Jaime and Cersei would be purely familial and not romantic. Cersei might crumble, because she is a weak willed person, but Jaime would be emotional stronger.

[qtpye]

14 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

A nasty brute he needed to secure a higher position for himself, and didn't seem he remotely cared about her to be an effective consort and mother to future lords/kings. 

Jaime was a kid when he developed his weird relationship with his sister, because Tywin was too busy being the Hand while they were raised by servants at Casterly Rock and when he was around and being a nasty jerk to them. Tyrion had an innate ability to be as intelligent and politically cunning and he still treated him like shit. He probably like Arya because she was both a servant and stranger and I am sure it would have changed on a dime if he found out who she really was. Maybe if he was less of a bastard to all of his kids, the bond between Jaime and Cersei would be purely familial and not romantic. Cersei might crumble, because she is a weak willed person, but Jaime would be emotional stronger.

True, they had a horrible father and we would never know what they would become if Tywin was a better father.

As mentioned before marrying off Cersei was what nobles did with their daughters and sons.  Cersei was happy to be married to Rhaegar or Robert, at first, because it would mean that she would be queen.  Also, both men were dashing and handsome during their youth.

Cersei thought that she could make love to her brother and lead Robert around by his nose.  It came as a nasty shock to her ego that Robert was still obsessed with Lyana.

Jamie without Cersei- Sacrifices his honor to save the people of King's Landing.

Jamie with Cersei- Throws an innocent and helpless small child out the window, an action that cripples the child.

However, Jamie has agency.  I can not blame Jamie's actions on Cersei or his father.  There is a certain point where we have to go beyond are circumstance and be our own person.

Show Jamie has not done this yet, but I do not know what next season will bring.

[Ambrosefolly]

1 minute ago, doram said:

By Westeros standards, Tywin was treating his daughter like... well, like a literal Queen by matching her up with Crown Princes and Kings. And Cersei didn't have any problem whatsoever with those arrangements. I would have given her twisted feelings for Jamie more credit if her reaction to her engagements was refusal because of her "relationship" with her brother. But both times, she wholeheartedly welcomed and revelled at the chance of being Queen and getting to "own" her future King and actual King respectively, all the while ensuring that her brother was sworn to the Kingsguard where he could live the life of a monk while being her sexual slave at her convenience. 

I'm sorry, but there's nothing pitiable or sympathetic about Cersei's character. 

Let's not forget that Cersei murdered a fortune teller at the age of twelve. She was born a sociopath. 

Tywin treated her like a broad mare, someone only good for producing babies and adding prestige to his name. It had nothing to do with her. So in that respect, Cersei was like Tywin as a parent as they saw their children as extensions of themselves, it just so happened that Tyrion was blessed with Tywin's cunning. Of course she would want to be a queen and it was helpful that the men she was promised to were handsome at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if she shared a bit of young Sansa's idealism, but I agree nothing in the end would make her happy. I think there is a lot pitiable about her character. Doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to die for all the shit she pulled.

I wonder if Jaime joining the Kingsguard was his own way to spite his father.

[Ambrosefolly]

On July 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM, doram said:

That's rationalising the Westeros culture with 21st century eyes. If Cersei was a brood mare, then so was Cat, so was Sansa when she was happily engaged to Joffrey, so is every other Lady or Princess of Westeroes. And if Cersei was a brood mare, then every other Lord, or Lord's son of Westeros is a stud. Nobody highborn - male or female - got to choose who they married in Westeros. Cersei won the literal lottery where engagements were concerned. It is illogical to regard her as an object of pity because of who she married.

Before she died, Lady Lannister wanted to match one of the twins with either Elia or Oberyn Martell, both because of her close friendship with their mother the Princess of Dorne, but also because she wanted to separate her incestous brats from each other. 

Even Queen Daenerys herself knew that her station would never allow her to marry for love. She married politically in Mereen, and she's prepared to do the same in Westeros. 

Like I said, using 21st century sensibilities to criticise this practice is pointless. The only high born noble in the story so far that we've seen marry for love was the King in the North, Robb Stark. And we all know how well that ended for him. 

Yes, but it seems other houses like the Starks and Tyrells (or Redweynes, Olenna's house) realized that not only would the women have to give birth to the heirs of the houses, but would also need to be a strong figure to rear the children if they didn't die in children. While I expect Tywin was pissed that he was passed over for Hand for Jon Arynn, he (rightly) believed that if he outlived Robert Baratheon, he would be appointed Hand and the power behind the throne, so he didn't raise Cersei to be an operator like Olenna did for Maragarey (though she over focused on that at the expense of Mace) so he could consolidate more power for himself. Considering he knew first hand that it would be difficult for Robert to move on quickly from a woman he believed to be the love of his life, he should have warned her not to take Robert's misery personally and win him to her side. 

[Jazzy24]

On June 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Umbelina said:

Book Jamie honestly loves his sister and his children.  He sacrificed everything for her and for them.  It's not just sex, and it was certainly never rape.  The show utterly failed to address any of this, and the fact that there was almost no chemistry at all between the two actors also hurt things.  I blame Lena for that, as well as the horrible writing.  Cersei, who was always mad, but at least in the books, in the beginning really did love Jamie at the start had a much more complex and fascinating story than the show even tried to have. 

Jamie was, at heart, a profoundly honorable man, who had to make awful choices.  By the end, though he was always completely loyal to Cersei, he was a broken man, broken by his foolishness in the trust he had in his sister/lover.  He gave up everything for her, his inheritance, his chance to have his own children, to be honestly loved, instead of used and manipulated by this damaged and incredibly shallow, ruthless, manipulative, and horrible woman.  He fucked up his entire life for a romantic dream, and was deeply shattered and embarrassed by that.  She needed him so much when they were children, no mother, the stern father who didn't understand or support any of her gifts other than her exploitable beauty in a political marriage.  Jamie understood her hopes and dreams and they shared absolutely everything, he was her protector long before he ever took it on officially.

I'm sorry but give me quotes in the book where it proves that "Jaime honestly loves his children and gave anything up for them"

I have read the books several times and I don't remember Jaime loving any of his children. Nor do I remember him sacrificing anything for them. 

[TxanGoddess]

On 7/26/2016 at 4:06 PM, doram said:

Jaime joined the Kingsguard on Cersei's request to remain close to her. Then she thought she was about to become Rhaegar's Princess. She seduced Jaime, and made him swear himself into the Kingsguard so he would be hers for life, stripping him of not only his birthright as Lord of Casterly Rock but the chance to have a wife and family.

Spiteing his father was probably a side bonus though.  

And speaking of the obligations of KG, there seems to be an error in season 1.  IIRC Jamie gives Jon Snow a bunch of shit about joining the NW and celibacy and how if it doesnt work out it's 'only for life'.  Hmm wouldnt that be like the Kingsguard too MFer?  

It just strikes me as strange the writers let that through whenever it surfaces in my poor little brain.

[BlackberryJam]

TxanGoddess, that's not an error, Jaime's speech to Jon. They did it on purpose to parallel Jaime in the KG and Jon in the NW. Both orders are supposedly celibate, although neither order actually is.

By the end of the book series, and I'm spoiler tagging this,

Jaime's pretty apathetic about Cersei, he "supposes" he'd have to see her if he went back to KL and then he burns her letter asking him to come fight for her. He's all "Cersei may die, *shrug*, it's snowing, hey Brienne of Tarth is here, let me scramble to my feet."

As to Jaime loving his children, if I remember correctly, he doesn't give a flip about Joffrey (squirt of seed), barely thinks about Myrcella but is very kind to Tommen at Tywin's funeral when Cersei is a total bitch to the vomiting child. Jaime thinks later of having another child, one that he could actually hold and parent.

Jaime and Cersei, when we meet them in the show, are not a love story. They are the story of a dying relationship. That's why the actors show no chemistry. They aren't supposed to. We aren't supposed to see this amazing, all-consuming love for one another. We are supposed to see a long-term, toxic relationship that on its last legs and has caused damage and destruction not only to Jaime and Cersei, but to others.

In the show, Jaime acknowledges Cersei's awfulness several times. He says he loves a hateful woman. When Cersei talks about how awful she is during the Myrcella grief scene, Jaime is like "Yeah, I know you're horrible." He also acknowledges Cersei's awfulness to Tommen when they talk over Myrcella's body. Jaime knows Cersei is a horrible, terrible person, but he loves her. That's not making excuses for her behavior, that's loving her in spite of it.

And that look he gave her as she sat on the Iron Throne in her dress of power and new crown was "I am so done with you."

[Luckylyn]

[TxanGoddess]

Has anyone else ever thought that maybe Jaime is Azor Ahai?  I mean I know the frontrunner in most viewer/reader minds is Jon or maybe Danerys, but it seems like the show dicked around an awful long time at this point to establish a Nissa Nissa for either of them, whereas for Jaime, it's obvious, despite how sad we would all  be to see such a lovely woman die (ha!). 

Like a lot of theories,  you have to end up with a buy-in to some of the other theories for it to make sense, but I'm going with the idea that AA and PWWP are in fact different people, and that the evidence that they are the same has only been character assumptions (possibly mistaken) and GRRM speaking to those character assumptions.  Because then, having kingsblood wouldn't matter to AA, which could be Jaime, while maybe Jon could still be the PWWP and poor Melissande can at least be right about that. 

I just think Jaime's arc is more significant than the potential valonquar prophecy.  All the build up to show us his character does have a truly noble streak to him just so he can kill a bitch the whole realm wants to die falls a bit flat for me. 

Thoughts?

Edited August 13, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[scrb]

Talk the Thrones speculated that if Jaime, who's only been with Cersei, finds out she's been unfaithful many times, that might finally alienate him from her.

Especially if he finds out she was with Lancel.

[Lady S.]

I think we can assume show Jaime already knows about that affair seeing as her confession about it was what led to the Walk of Shame. Even if she omitted that detail, no one else would bother keeping it a secret from him once the affair was public knowledge.

[jeansheridan]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:06 PM, doram said:

Jaime joined the Kingsguard on Cersei's request to remain close to her. Then she thought she was about to become Rhaegar's Princess. She seduced Jaime, and made him swear himself into the Kingsguard so he would be hers for life, stripping him of not only his birthright as Lord of Casterly Rock but the chance to have a wife and family.

This doesn't quite ring true to me. From my understanding of the books Jaime is knighted very young by the Mad King and then invited by the Mad King to join the Kings Guard so he can keep Tywin under control. Jaime accepts because it is both an honor and he wants to remain close to Cersei.

And I don't recall Cersei seducing him as children. Was she the leader? Probably given her personality. She tries to seduce him in the KingsGuard tower and he rejects her (gently). 

On the show I think they start the series like an old married couple. Bickering a bit. He wants sex after the long trip and they get caught.  Now in some danger, the passion reignites. While in captivity he focuses on her. When he returns, he is too late. Whatever Cersei felt for him is gone. Now he is a habit. He gives her nothing emotionally. And I think in the books the last time they have sex is over Joffrey's dead body.

Show Jaime seems more defeated and sad which I think is fair. He is human. The world sucks and he is trying to save the woman he remembers. He did say he was a slow learner.

But now he knows Tyrion loves him still. Tyrion must to trust him. 

[jeansheridan]

Cool. I will need to reread. I had the notion the Mad King also wanted Tywin's heir under his thumb. But it has been a while and the books are thick.

[Francie]

On 8/15/2017 at 2:31 AM, jeansheridan said:

Cool. I will need to reread. I had the notion the Mad King also wanted Tywin's heir under his thumb. But it has been a while and the books are thick.

In the books, we have no idea how the relationship began, as we have not been made privy to that.  Jaime only recalls that he can't remember when their kissing went from innocent to something not so innocent. 

At the age of 15, Jaime does pass through King's Landing, and Cersei meets up with him a dive inn where she tells him of Tywin's plan to marry Jaime off to Lysa, and then sexes him up, keeps him all night, and gets him to agree to join the Kingsguard in order to be close to her.  As Jaime recalls that night, Cersei had never been "more" passionate, which I believe implies that their relationship began before then.  The DVD behind the scenes footage shot solely for the DVD release, and written by Dave Hill, says that Jaime's and Cersei's first time together sexually was that night.  I think Dave was being lazy, because it seems to contradict the books, and it's ludicrous for me to imagine Cersei, if she and Jaime hadn't already started sexual exploration, to be all, "Hey, I know what would get Jaime to agree to join the Kingsguard ...."

In the books, once Jaime agrees to Cersei's plan, she tells him to leave it all to her.  A month passes, and Jaime is at Casterly Rock, where he receives word that he has been selected for the Kingsguard.  Tywin hits the roof, and Aerys tells Tywin that he has his boy now.  Tywin resigns as Hand, citing "health issues," and takes Cersei back with him to Casterly Rock. So the twins switch places.  Meanwhile, once Aerys names Jaime to the Kingsguard, he suddenly is panicked about having an armed Lannister so close to him.  He sends Jaime home from the Harenhall Tournament, where Jaime was knighted and expected to participate.  Aerys sends Jaime back to King's Landing, and refuses to allow him to stay and participate. Jaime's new Kingsguard brothers volunteer to go back to King's Landing instead, so that Jaime can stay. But Aerys still sends Jaime home.  That's when Jaime realizes that he was just used as a pawn in his father's and Aerys's feud. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Francie

[TaurusRose]

So, in other words, Jaime has always been an idiot.

[herbz]

Ah, Jaime, my absolute favourite POV in the books. Not a good person by any means, but a gloriously snarky, morally complex, traumatised case of arrested development that's so interesting to unravel. NCW is wonderful, but I wish the show had come even close to doing him justice. I'm grateful that at least the bathtub confession was done so well. 

Has anyone read the theory that someone close to the King (Varys, in all likelihood) conspired with Cersei- or at least planted the idea in her head, knowing she would want Jaime close and wouldn't mind Casterly Rock either- to get Jaime on the Kingsguard, aiming to alienate Tywin and prompt further chaos? I think it could fit, because that inn off Eel Alley is one of Varys', as we learn in AGoT when Cat goes there, and 15 year old Cersei's line 'Aerys would want a young man to take the place (of the conveniently dead Kingsguard), so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?' just sounds so...Varys. How would a girl with little influence at the time manage to get him a place without an intermediary whispering in Aerys' ear?  It's not like it'd affect the plot much if at all, but I've always enjoyed that theory. 

[anamika]

Jaime recap season 1-7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6nFBkWyVRU&feature=youtu.be

[LadyChaos]

Do you guys think that Jaime Lannister really is in love with Cersei or do you think its more like a case of Stockholm syndrome since Cersei has been manipulating, emotionally, and sexually abusing him all his life?

[GraceK]

5 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Do you guys think that Jaime Lannister really is in love with Cersei or do you think its more like a case of Stockholm syndrome since Cersei has been manipulating, emotionally, and sexually abusing him all his life?

She hasn’t been sexually abusing him. He’s not a victim in this relationship 🙄. In fact, you can make the case that he forcefully had sex with her in season 4 besides the body of their dead son, at least in the show. In the books it’s much more consensual, but in the unaired Pilot script that was recently released, their first sex scene that Bran witnesses is a lot more violent and forceful on Jaimes side that they ended up redoing. Their relationship is equally unhealthy. Cersei is a grade a bitch and manipulates him shamelessly, and is horrible, but he adores her utterly . In the books he breaks ties with her much sooner because he realizes she has been cheating on him and that she doesn’t love him, and his redemption arc begins quicker. In the show, he truly does love her on a level that defies logic. It’s sad really. He is tied to her in a way that is deeply tragic and even though he leaves her in season 7, that doesn’t mean he stopped loving her. She is a part of him unfortunately. Show Jaime will never stop loving her I don’t think. Even if he knows that Brienne is the one he should love and strives for, ( and I think his heart loves her too) one part of himself is tied to Cersei until he dies. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

She hasn’t been sexually abusing him. He’s not a victim in this relationship 🙄. In fact, you can make the case that he forcefully had sex with her in season 4 besides the body of their dead son, at least in the show. In the books it’s much more consensual, but in the unaired Pilot script that was recently released, their first sex scene that Bran witnesses is a lot more violent and forceful on Jaimes side that they ended up redoing. Their relationship is equally unhealthy. Cersei is a grade a bitch and manipulates him shamelessly, and is horrible, but he adores her utterly . In the books he breaks ties with her much sooner because he realizes she has been cheating on him and that she doesn’t love him, and his redemption arc begins quicker. In the show, he truly does love her on a level that defies logic. It’s sad really. He is tied to her in a way that is deeply tragic and even though he leaves her in season 7, that doesn’t mean he stopped loving her. She is a part of him unfortunately. Show Jaime will never stop loving her I don’t think. Even if he knows that Brienne is the one he should love and strives for, ( and I think his heart loves her too) one part of himself is tied to Cersei until he dies. 🤷🏻‍♀️

We don't know that it was mutual.  In the books, they were found fooling around at a very young age, and afterwords were force to separate. We don't know that she wasn't manipulating him all his life.  The whole point behind stockholders syndrome is that the victim does believe that they love the person that has been abusing them.  We don't know that when they were young that Cersei wasn't manipulating him, and twisting his devotion to her into something sick.  We only know what we we see now, as they are adults.

That is why I posed the question.

[GraceK]

32 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

We don't know that it was mutual.  In the books, they were found fooling around at a very young age, and afterwords were force to separate. We don't know that she wasn't manipulating him all his life.  The whole point behind stockholders syndrome is that the victim does believe that they love the person that has been abusing them.  We don't know that when they were young that Cersei wasn't manipulating him, and twisting his devotion to her into something sick.  We only know what we we see now, as they are adults.

That is why I posed the question.

But we do know that when Cersei was abusing Tyrion by twisting his little baby penis, she listened to Jaime when he told her to stop. Listen, I am not a Cersei apologist by any means, I cannot stand her. But I refuse to absolve Jaime and make him a victim. He is a shit. He pushed Bran out a window. He murdered his cousin. The reason he’s so compelling is because he is a selfish piece of shit who only loves Cersei and slowly becomes a better person. Underneath, he’s a golden boy who wants to be better, who wants to be a true knight. Cersei poisons him...he’s his worse self with her. He’s his best self with Brienne. Brienne reminds him of what a knight is supposed to be, what honor really is. She’s the only person who sees the goodness in him and doesn’t see him as the “ kingslayer”.  I don’t see the Jaime and Cersei relationship as Stockholm syndrome, I see it as a co dependent, unhealthy abusive relationship.

[LadyChaos]

10 hours ago, GraceK said:

But we do know that when Cersei was abusing Tyrion by twisting his little baby penis, she listened to Jaime when he told her to stop. Listen, I am not a Cersei apologist by any means, I cannot stand her. But I refuse to absolve Jaime and make him a victim. He is a shit. He pushed Bran out a window. He murdered his cousin. The reason he’s so compelling is because he is a selfish piece of shit who only loves Cersei and slowly becomes a better person. Underneath, he’s a golden boy who wants to be better, who wants to be a true knight. Cersei poisons him...he’s his worse self with her. He’s his best self with Brienne. Brienne reminds him of what a knight is supposed to be, what honor really is. She’s the only person who sees the goodness in him and doesn’t see him as the “ kingslayer”.  I don’t see the Jaime and Cersei relationship as Stockholm syndrome, I see it as a co dependent, unhealthy abusive relationship.

Their relationship is toxic and Im not absolving Jaime of anything he has done.  He still chose to do some abhorrent things.  I just think that the longer he is away from Cersei, and his father, his better self comes out.  Getting his hand cut off helped too.  I just also think that if he had been lucky to get away from Cersei when he was 18 instead of being with her in KL in his adult like, he would have became a completely better person.....but then again then KL would have been blown to smithereens because I doubt anyone else would have had the guts to kill Aegon. 

[Lady S.]

If Jaime hadn't been with Cersei or the Mad King, he could have been working closer in the Tywin Lannister School of Lordship and Winning Through Mass Murder. Guy had multiple influences fucking him up and it'd be hard for anyone in that environment to grow up a true knight.

And no, that's not what Stockholm Syndrome means at all. Absence of the word mutual doesn't mean it wasn't, Jaime doesn't remember when their kissing started or when it stopped being innocent, just frames it as them always being together. Cersei was all of a few minutes older than him, there was no power imbalance in her favor as children and it's pretty gross to assume 7yo Cersei was already a conniving seductress.

[LadyPenelope]

To answer your original question - I think that (in the books at least), they are genuinely in love with each other - it’s just that that love isn’t particularly kind, patient or sympathetic. He is as vicious with her as she is with him. I don’t think Cersei is innately evil and has been corrupting poor sweet Jaime since they were children - they have both been screwed up by the world they live in and the roles they have had to play.

But then, I seriously don’t buy book Jaime’s ‘redemption’ arc - all he is doing at this point is having a massive strop around the countryside and feeling sorry for himself about how nobody understands what a good guy he really is. In many respects, I found unrepentant Jaime 1.0 who would do whatever it took to protect his family, and didn’t care how that looked in the annals of Westerosi history, much more appealing.

[SimoneS]

On the show, I buy Theon's redemption before Jaime's. I roll my eyes at Theon, but at least he seems genuinely remorseful and ashamed although I can't help thinking that if Ramsey didn't mutilate him, he would still be running around destroying the world. Anyway back to Jaime, I gave up on him ages ago. I only wanted to believe there was hope for him because Brienne loves him and I love her. On his best day, Jaime is only marginally better than Cersei. All that Jaime has going for him on the show is NCW's good looks and charm along with Jaime's affection or whatever he feels for Brienne and her love for him. Jaime has done absolutely nothing to redeem himself. He is basically Cersei's lap dog. Having Jaime leave Cersei and head off to Winterfell is obviously the show's attempt to set him on a redemption arc in the final season. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by SimoneS

[tangerine95]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

On the show, I buy Theon's redemption before Jaime's. I roll my eyes at Theon, but at least he seems genuinely remorseful and ashamed although I can't help thinking that if Ramsey didn't mutilate him, he would still be running around destroying the world. Anyway back to Jaime, I gave up on him ages ago. I only wanted to believe there was hope for him because Brienne loves him and I love her. On his best day, Jaime is only marginally better than Cersei. All that Jaime has going for him on the show is NCW's good looks and charm along with Jaime's affection or whatever he feels for Brienne and her love for him. Jaime has done absolutely nothing to redeem himself. He is basically Cersei's lap dog. Having Jaime leave Cersei and head off to Winterfell is obviously the show's attempt to set him on a redemption arc in the final season. 

That's basically me as well.I loved Jaime's season 3 arc so much,love it in the books even more.So I had hopes he'll actually continue on that path tho setbacks are expected.But it was basically just more Cersei obsession,doing whatever the Lannisters need him to do,increasingly annoying adventures with Bronn and occasional signs of compassion towards Brienne and Tyrion.Seeing him  desperately try to convince people of how Cersei is gonna be a great queen just when she manages to kill everyone else,doing everything she wants etc was really annoying.And it made his ultimate turning point at the end of the season feel less satisfying than I was expecting.

[Heckler52317]

Dude can take a shot! Two likely lethal hits and he's running all over KL. Euron must have been in bad shape coming out of the water- he should have crushed left handed Jaime

[Nashville]

Still one of my favorite memes of all time:

[Umbelina]

Indeed.  Perhaps the best written character in the book, and one of the best acted on the show, with an idiotic script to follow.

[bijoux]

As I'm rereading the books I'm kind of developing this theory that D&D bought into Cersei's heightened image of herself, which affected her storyline on the show and in turn Jaime's. Which is a shame for both really because Cersei's chapters in Feast are a true highlight and Lena could have had loads of fun with that. 

I honestly had a hard time following some of the proposed rewrite and I fervently disagree that it should have been Jaime instead of Theon in the godswood. Theon was just right. The only misstep there was not conveying that to Yara onscreen. 

I know the show gets a lot of flack (and much of the time rightly so) but I do appreciate them actually crafting scenes for the Lannister brothers. In the books they think of each other, but aside from the clusterfuck of Jaime freeing Tyrion, there's no interaction. Although Handless and Noseless really does make up for a lot. 😄

That video also reminded me of how great Mark Addy was as Robert. 

[Umbelina]

I think Jamie's incredible story was mostly sacrificed to prop up Lena/Cersei.

I agree with that video above that he is probably one of the best written characters in fiction, but sadly, you'd never know it by watching this TV show.

That rape was the tip of the shit pile, but there was a lot of other shit before and after...basically ruining Jamie.  The actor saved it in places...but...sigh.

[bijoux]

Even more than the rape shitpile, I think I object to dumbing him down in general. I forgot this due to the show beating on the dumbest Lannister drum whenever convenient, but Feast Jamie is actually very aware of his surroundings and the workings of KL, the kingdoms and lords great and small, and he's a very logical thinker when it comes to keeping Tommen king. It's where I first realized that he wasn't just the sword hand he believed himself to be.