S04.E01: A Tale Of Two Sisters

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's through my lens, it may look different to others.  I feel like the writers are going to keep Regina pretty true to the homicidal maniac we've come to know.

 

I came to the same conclusion. She's still a psychotic maniac. I was just confused by what the writers were expecting us to get from it. They showed how blatantly evil Regina still is, then they threw in that door scene with Emma where we were supposed to feel sympathetic toward her. If they wanted us to still believe she's evil, they shouldn't have focused so much on her tearful disposition and more on diabolical plots.

Edited September 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

I originally posted the prick tease comment. Bad choice of words and I apologize. I am a woman and not a chauvinist. 

 

I just don't want Hook and Emma to get into a rut of her seemingly giving him hope and then finding excuses to pull away and him trailing her like a lovesick puppy. That's not interesting to me.

[Mitch]

I wasn't interested in the least about the Frozen group coming but low and behold, they breathed a little life into what has become a stale show.  The main problem in not the actors or characters its that the writers wont let anyone move on or change, so we see the same ole, same ole. One reviewer it had it write that the show is "Frozen," in time, with the characters just going back to square 1.

 

I love Regina, especially S1 Mayor Mills, but the writers swing the character back to crazy so fast I feel sorry for poor Parrilla. Last episdoe of S3 we see Regina stopping Rump from killing Zelena as "Too many people have died by our hands." and now suddenly she is thinking of killing Marion. Her funniest lines were "vanilla," and her covering up that she HAD forgot about dumb Sydney...and would have been great is S1 but supposedly she had grown (Parrilla would have made a great one liner spouting "bad" girl in a 30s or 40s movie...) I do like that she is trying to find out who wrote the book, but its about time, NO ONE thought of this before? I could buy that a super villain is tempted to go back to their evil ways when an obstacle occurs but we should be seeing more conflict from Regina, but she is just in EQ mode. The writers have no clue how to write her with any depth beyond being a saint or a sinner. Anyway, hopefully the writers have some plan then having R & R do the same damn thing this season, but I doubt it.

 

As I said, I am not into the "Frozen," movie but the actors are appealing, and its nice to see fresh young cute faces of the two girls and the groom to be (let hope he doesnt bite the dust..) and its nice to see family ties that arent perfect but are not screwed up. The two sisters love each other and its nice to see somone going out of their way for a family member to help out (and not just when they are about to be killed by a monster, etc.)

 

The show doesnt even bother to explain things..."Oh this house must have appeared after the second curse.." (it sure looks clean) and Regina traipsing around in the woods in her high heels and business suit (can anyone explain to me why she sometimes poofs out and other times drives her car, walks places, and uses a shovel instead of magic?)  Marion IS a bore though and I can only hope it

Maleficent

back to take Regina's happiness away and to turn her back to the dark side..."It was so easy dear I could have done it in my sleep..you are quite easy to manipulate..oh by the way, Robin's okay in the sack but I've had better..oh but you wouldn't know, you had a boy who died, an old man and a sex slave!"

Edited October 4, 2014 by yeswedo
added spoiler tag

[Mari]

If they wanted us to still believe she's evil, they shouldn't have focused so much on her tearful disposition and more on diabolical plots.

I watched the clip show, because I was curious and sometimes those are quite telling about what will happen next.  (In the previous clip show, it was pretty obvious that Neal was not going to be a serious factor in anyone's story, for example.)

 

They focused a lot on Regina, and how "Evil is made not born."  They focused on Regina's abusive mother, and Regina's losses and unhappiness, and basically framed it as "She was desperate and made bad choices and was even more lonely."  (Not how they worded it, just the impression it left.) 

 

I think what A&E are aiming for is Regina being desperate, and being pushed or forced into making bad choices out of fear and loneliness.  I don't think they register how over-the-top evil Parilla comes across when she goes into Evil Queen mode, so they don't realize that it doesn't look like Regina backsliding, so much as Regina's a megalomaniacal sociopathic narcissist who didn't get the toy she wanted.

 

If it is a perception issue, it might work better if the directors had Parilla pull back her performance some, and aimed for a Regina that looked more conflicted, and less excited and enthuasiastic.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

If it is a perception issue, it might work better if the directors had Parilla pull back her performance some, and aimed for a Regina that looked more conflicted, and less excited and enthuasiastic.

 

 

Replying in Regina thread.

[stealinghome]

I came to the same conclusion. She's still a psychotic maniac. I was just confused by what the writers were expecting us to get from it. They showed how blatantly evil Regina still is, then they threw in that door scene with Emma where we were supposed to feel sympathetic toward her. If they wanted us to still believe she's evil, they shouldn't have focused so much on her tearful disposition and more on diabolical plots.

What I got from the episode is both (we are all now apparently both, heh): they do want us to see her as still pretty evil (and also a little crazy), and enjoy her craziness, but they also do want us to feel sorry enough for her so that we're cheering for her eventual redemption.

 

The problem is that this is really the third season in a row where this has been her character arc. So even if it appealed in S2, it's really, really, really stale by now.

Edited September 30, 2014 by stealinghome

[myril]

I originally posted the prick tease comment. Bad choice of words and I apologize. I am a woman and not a chauvinist. 

 

I just don't want Hook and Emma to get into a rut of her seemingly giving him hope and then finding excuses to pull away and him trailing her like a lovesick puppy. That's not interesting to me.

 

Thanks for agreeing it was not such a good choice of words. Apology accepted on my side.

 

And agree, that Hook as lovesick puppy would be not interesting to watch. But think, though he shows some patience with Emma, he is not the kind of guy to turn into a lovesick puppy. But, okay, never know on this show.

 

Some random stuff rewatching the episode:

 

How many liters of water did they throw at Pascale Hutton, Oliver Rice and the ship crew in the storm scene at the beginning? Couldn't help but wonder, how much people power, time, effort went into just such a scene on the show. Despite all criticism and being  rather a grumpy ghost of a fan by now, remember sometimes, how much work goes into what we get to see on screen.

 

What about the message in the bottle? Obviously it didn't get to Elsa and Anna. Where is it?

 

Noticed the crickets chirping in the back in the scene in front of Granny's Diner. Nice sound. Summernight feelings.

 

A thought: Rumple should have made a deal at the grave of his son. Rumple is known to break his promises, but he is quite adamant about sticking to his deals. But then we would have not that much drama.

 

What was Elsa doing all night? Or was it late in the night, when she encountered Grumpy and Sleepy, and it then took her some time to walk into town? It seemed to be early morning, when she arrived, after all main street was conveniently empty. And did she hide then for a while? Or are the Charming Clan  people liking to catch the early bird? (Think though the scenes with them strolling were shot closer to midday). And right, when was that photo of Belle and Rumple in the shop taken? The timing on this show sometimes drives me crazy.

 

Speaking of the newspaper. In the newspaper is besides the report about Gold to marry Belle French, an article about "Storybrooke Priory "Laughing" gargoyle has been vandalized", showing a picture of the very gargoyle statue we've seen in the scenes before, and "Volunteers help rebuild Storybrooke Heritage trail". Was looking if the date was visible but no luck with that. Details, details. LOL 

 

The gargoyle reminded me not just of Pabbie but after seeing the news paper articles as well thought of the animated TV series Gargoyles, which coincidentally premiered in October 1994, 20 years ago. Yes, it's a Disney show.

 

Marvel at Anna's skill to put on the wedding dress so fast and without help. Okay, guess I just don't have much experience with that, being more of a jeans and sweater person.

Edited September 30, 2014 by katusch

[kingshearte]

Marvel at Anna's skill to put on the wedding dress so fast and without help. Okay, guess I just don't have much experience with that, being more of a jeans and sweater person.

Ha! I actually had that thought too. When she came out, I turned to my husband and said "No way can she put that on herself." Which, now that I think about it, makes her running around in it all that much less practical. My dress was not nearly so poufy, but it still required assistance for... certain activities. That would get tiresome for all concerned.

[tribeca]

 

 

love Regina and think she is the most fascinating characters on the show: i should probably stay off this board with all the Regina hate and find another one but AfterEllen annoys me trying to pair her with Emma

 

 

I liked Neal so I feel your pain.

   I may be the only person who has never seen Frozen.  Thought the ice princess and the stable guy were suppose to be a couple.  They had a lot of chemistry.  Then he said he was soon to be her brother!

[AudienceofOne]

I think what A&E are aiming for is Regina being desperate, and being pushed or forced into making bad choices out of fear and loneliness

 

 

And they're failing. I thought they dealt with this quite well even into 3A. She realised she could get the things she's secretly always wanted - family, acceptance, love - if she made amends for her past and approached situations differently in the future. She decided to change and was determined to do so.

 

The problem the writers keep making is that she is not just a product of her mother's scheming and rejection - she's a textbook sociopath incapable of understanding that other people are people and that their actions and behaviours are mostly about them and not her. I started laughing in this episode during Robin's scene because everybody keeps talking to her as though she's a normal person and not someone with a lack of empathy so extraordinary I'm surprised she doesn't attack people on the street for "deliberately" bumping into her*. Even her whole attitude to "her son" is nothing to do with Henry: it's a typical sociopathic response to "what emotions do I have to fake to get what I want".

 

A "normal" person might be taken aback and upset at their boyfriend's wife coming back from the dead. But once they recover from that initial emotional response, the appropriate emotion is "I'm glad I didn't murder you". They certainly don't blame the person who saved their life for "deliberately" "ruining their life" by not letting an innocent woman get executed.

 

Emma, in comparison, is so empathetic that she can blame herself for Regina's pain even if it defies logic, in the same way Snow blamed herself for what's-his-name's death even though she was 11 and brutally manipulated by Cora.

 

Basically, if they wanted to redeem Regina, they shouldn't have made her such an extreme sociopath and, if they didn't want to redeem Regina, they shouldn't have devoted so much screentime to it.

 

*Edited because I suddenly realised, she actually would attack people for bumping into her. After all, their clumsiness is clearly all about her.

Edited September 30, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[KAOS Agent]

 

She's a textbook sociopath incapable of understanding that other people are people and that their actions and behaviours are mostly about them and not her.

 

What I found particularly interesting was Regina's response to Emma saving Marian. Regina told Emma that Marian was going to die anyway, so what difference did it make. Emma's response was that Marian is a person and she didn't deserve to die. Regina showed right there that she has zero understanding or caring for other humans in general. It's she died. Who cares? Whereas Emma saw Marian as a human being who matters to somebody and that deserves to be recognized. She's not just some random collateral damage to those who love her.

[ShadowFacts]

She also signaled that she doesn't intend to change when she said she needs to get to the author of the book so that villains can have happy endings.  That's how she sees it, she knows other people define her that way, and she doesn't want to do anything to make that right.  She only wants to manipulate to get her way. 

[AudienceofOne]

While we're on the topic of empathy, I thought I'd note that extremely empathetic people like Emma can actually find it more difficult to form relationships because they can find the constant onslaught of responding to other people's needs and emotions exhausting. They can also get hurt by other people's selfishness. They often respond by keeping people at arm's length and only letting them in after the other person has shown themselves capable of giving as well as receiving. Emma, you'll notice, is far more comfortable by herself or just hanging out with Henry and has very few friends. That's not just the result of growing up without a family.

[KingOfHearts]

Emma is someone who is extremely receptive. She can tell how you're feeling and what you're thinking just by the tone of voice or faces you make. That is part of her detective skills, and you could also attribute it to her "superpower". Because of this sensitivity, it bothers her considerably when someone is angry with her. With all that into consideration, her reaction to Regina and wanting to fix the problem was completely in-character.

 

Jumping off of AudienceofOne's point, when Emma constantly takes in everyone's feelings and intents, it can be overwhelming emotionally. Thus, she puts walls up.

Edited October 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I think the Charmings are being stupid and irresponsible by not locking Regina up (that's the very least they could do because execution should absolutely be on the table), but at the very least the writers (and I don't know if this makes it worse or better) don't have The Charmings et al. act like they have amnesia and they do justifiably "worry" about Regina going on another murder spree.

 

Yes... It is kind of funny how in front of Regina, it's all "oh are you okay?", and on their asides, Charming jokes about incineration, Henry asks if Regina is going to go evil again and Snow ponders seriously if Regina will do that "thing" she usually does, without much of the usual optimism.  So really, deep down, none of them actually trust Regina.  I might just fanwank that they all play up their rah rah rah Regina enthusiasm whenever they might die, since Regina (and Rumple) are the only ones with actual consistent magical power and they know Regina is unstable and needs constant positive reinforcement.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Camera One

[MDKNIGHT]

What I found particularly interesting was Regina's response to Emma saving Marian. Regina told Emma that Marian was going to die anyway, so what difference did it make. Emma's response was that Marian is a person and she didn't deserve to die. Regina showed right there that she has zero understanding or caring for other humans in general. It's she died. Who cares? Whereas Emma saw Marian as a human being who matters to somebody and that deserves to be recognized. She's not just some random collateral damage to those who love her.

I agree that what they showed us is that Regina has zero understanding of how to be an empathic normal person.  Where I think the writers go wrong is that they seem to think they've shown us Regina has been redeemed and they haven't.  I dare to have a tiny bit of hope left however that they MAY cobble together a semi acceptable path for Regina that does not land us back at square one.  I may be over reading but I thought I saw a tiny speck of well not guilt exactly but let's say "discomfort" on Regina's face when she watched her old evil self condemn Marian to be killed.  Like MAYBE she had a little tiny bit of a realization that she really was straight up evil and that Marian was right when she said that she must not have felt loved to be able to do the stuff she did.  At that point she didn't have Henry and she hadn't had the experience of working with team Charming.  Not that she repented and stopped her plans to kill Marian as soon as she saw herself BUT maybe there was the starting little bit of doubt that killing Marian was the way to go and as it turned out later she didn't actually have to kill Marian just LET her be killed, to get her out of the way and she just didn't take it.  That does mean SOMETHING.  Now IF we didn't know Marshmallow was Elsa's creation THEN I would say Regina made the snow monster only to save Marian to look good so that she could then leverage things to either have Robin leave Marian for her OR kill Marian later and not be suspected, but we saw Marshmallow's creation so we know that Regina had the choice of letting Marian die or saving her and chose to save her.  I don't think it was a plot to look good because then she cried a lot where other people couldn't see her so I took it as she was sad that from her POV she blew her chance at being with Robin by NOT doing the evil thing, i.e. not letting Marshamallow kill Marian for her. Maybe Regina had a pang of conciense for a split second there.

 

Then she came up with plan B.  Which BTW I think might possibly not be as evil as plan A.  What if she thinks she can get the book writer to change the story to "And Maid Marian met Will Scarlet and fell in love and asked Robin for a divorce and then Robin begged Regina for a second chance and then the two of them lived happily ever after."  I mean from what we've seen Regina doesn't care HOW she winds up with Robin so long as it happens.  That is a little improvement. 

 

What I am hoping for is for Regina to wind up making the right choice in the end, of her own free will, not because of Henry or fear of getting caught by the charmings.  If she could know without being told that people like Marian do matter, that the ends don't justify the means, that killing someone because they get in your way is wrong  then she would truely be redeemed.  But as many have pointed out TPTB don't have a clue what true redemption is.  They could still keep her interesting by having her be not evil but not nice either.  When Regina is just being bitchy she is entertaining.  One of my fav lines from the show was when she told Red "Private conversation...go take yourself for a walk." 

Edited October 1, 2014 by MDKNIGHT

[stealinghome]

Oh, I definitely thought there was a flash of something in Regina's eyes when she watched her past self with Marian. But I didn't think it was about Marian at all--rather, it was about what Marian said to Regina, and Regina realizing Marian was right.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Oh, I definitely thought there was a flash of something in Regina's eyes when she watched her past self with Marian. But I didn't think it was about Marian at all--rather, it was about what Marian said to Regina, and Regina realizing Marian was right.

 

That moment was meaningful to me. Up to that point, Regina hadn't seen her Evil Queen self in many years. It had the potential to usher in some self-awareness... but nope. "This book is why I'm suffering!"

[ParadoxLost]

I agree that what they showed us is that Regina has zero understanding of how to be an empathic normal person.  Where I think the writers go wrong is that they seem to think they've shown us Regina has been redeemed and they haven't.

 

I think that there are certain story beats or plots that the writers really want to do but they don't want to spend any time on setting them up or fleshing them out, respectively.  And because they want these things so much, they are convincing themselves that the short-cuts make Regina (and Rumple) complex characters rather than negating the steps they've taken towards redemption.

 

Giancarlo Esposito becomes available and they want Sidney and Magic Mirror back.  That makes complete sense; but they don't want to spend time on it.  They want to jump to the part that let's them tell the story they want to tell and that isn't why Sidney is still in that padded room.  They didn't want to spend time showing fairy or flashbacks on why it was necessary that he stayed locked up and if they did justify it, Regina still looks bad for setting him lose for her own purposes.  So its easier for them to just imply that Regina forgot about him.  That it puts into question whether she's learned anything at all and opens the question of who else she has locked up, they wave away because its easier.

 

I'm at the same point with Marian/Robin/Regina.  That makes no sense at all.  Regina is thwarted on executing Marian.  Marian is reunited with her husband.  Robin loves Regina and doesn't blame the her (she's changed) but must stay with Marian because he made vows, Regina saves Marian even though no one would know she was there and let Marian be killed, and then decides the book won't let her have a happy ending.  None of that logically flows from one to the next.  That they didn't milk this for couple angst beyond Regina's pain tells me that they don't want her blamed for her actions in the EF.  Its a necessary turn of events to get them to the story they want to tell which is who wrote the book (which I bet is the plan for 4B).  This was the easiest way to give someone a motive to care.  Anything else would have taken some set up.

 

Rumple is basically the same.  He has to keep his dagger to set up frozen.  He has to take his dagger back to reveal the Fantasia hat.  I have no idea why they bothered to have him freeze Belle and return it in between.  Other than demonstrating that his attempt to be a better man didn't even last one day.

Edited October 1, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Mathius]

They could still keep her interesting by having her be not evil but not nice either. When Regina is just being bitchy she is entertaining. One of my fav lines from the show was when she told Red "Private conversation...go take yourself for a walk."

I think they did that well for most of Season 3, especially 3A. But then "Bleeding Through" happened.

Rumple is basically the same. He has to keep his dagger to set up frozen. He has to take his dagger back to reveal the Fantasia hat. I have no idea why they bothered to have him freeze Belle and return it in between. Other than demonstrating that his attempt to be a better man didn't even last one day.

That move is necessary, though, since this was a premiere that always had the potential to -and did- bring in many new viewers, so they needed a clear way of demonstrating that this man is addicted to power and that his "I can quit the dagger whenever I want to" claims are bullshit.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Mathius

[darkestboy]

I liked it. I still haven't watched Frozen but I know enough not to be confused and I know the series will more or less do it's own thing with the characters anyways so it won't matter too much really.

I already like Elsa and don't mind Anna/Kristoff that much either and there was enough of balancing act between them and the Storybrooke lot.

Regina's quest to find the writer is interesting enough. Do villain really deserve a happy ending? er not really. The stuff with her, Marion and Robin was better handled than expected. Not amazing though.

The Belle/Rumple stuff was decent, though they laid it on thick with the Beauty And The Beast sequence. Very thick.

Emma, Hook, Henry, David and Mary Margaret didn't really get much to do in the opening episode.

Snow monster genuinely looked awful. Some of the worst CGI the show has done in a long, long time, 8/10

[Dirtybubble]

Snow monster genuinely looked awful. Some of the worst CGI the show has done in a long, long time,

The snow monster was kinda weak.  As a blogger pointed out, him carefully stepping over barriers and what pushing a trash bin to the side, oooh how terrifying.  No more snow monster and no more troll/rock people.  It just seemed so out of place, this isn't Frozen part 2, it's OUAT.

[KingOfHearts]

The snowman was just thrown in there to give storybrooke some action sequences, plus maybe cause the cast to believe Elsa is a threat. Amidst all the drama in the past and present, the snow monster was the climax to tie the episode together.

I thought he looked like barely chewed mint gum.

Edited October 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

The snow monster reminded me of something you would have pressed on a t-shirt in terms of quality.

[Mitch]

I think that there are certain story beats or plots that the writers really want to do but they don't want to spend any time on setting them up or fleshing them out, respectively.

 

Exactley...and its the show's major fault.  I agree about Sydney. It makes no sense that Regina or ANYONE would not think of him. They could have had her go find him in Storybrooke's flop house..(maybe "Universal Refuge for the Down and Out." )  and had him with the other bums , sitting around drinking while h is pining for Regina. (plus it would be funny to see Regina looking disgusted at the other bums while they wolf wistle at her..) Regina would find him and say in her Mayor Mills voice "Snap out of it, I need your help NOW!" 

 

It would make more sense that way and show us that Regina is still Regina in that she doesnt care about him, only when she needs him but not totally dense that she would forget a man she spent so much time with (really, the most time of anyone else.)  But that would require a set up and the writers don't want to spend time on that. So we are supposed to hand wave that on a show whose very premise rquires hand waving. A show with any kind of supernatural premise should go out of it way to be logical because the show is so illogical. Because we bought into the premise doenst give the writers a the go ahead to not connect the dots in a logical and consistent manner.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Mitch

[Anakerie]

So I’m still trying to figure out exactly what Rumple and Belle DID after their wedding, because it doesn’t seem like it was what most people would do.
It was night when they got married. Yet the day they’re on their way to the abandoned house still wearing their wedding clothing and Rumple comments about them being married for almost a full day. If they’d gone home and had a wedding night then why are they wearing the same clothes? I guess you could argue that maybe the naming ceremony was held at like 5AM or something, in which case Robin Hood should be smacked hard for keeping a 4-year-old up that late! But the timing still doesn’t make much sense. Unless of course they just spent the night and part of the next day in the back of the Caddie, which I GUESS is a possibility but if I were newly married and my husband suggested we just shag in the backseat of his car instead of going home to our bed I think I might become a widow on the spot. 

 

So I’ve decided that instead of returning to Rumple’s house, they just spent the entire night breaking into other people’s homes and shagging there. The abandoned mansion is just one in a long line in the trail of destruction and emotional scarring they have left in their wake.

Regina:  *walks in after fiasco with Marian and catches them on her living room floor*  Regina:   Whatever. I’m going to bed. Lock up when you leave.

[Mitch]

Regina:  *walks in after fiasco with Marian and catches them on her living room floor*  Regina:   Whatever. I’m going to bed. Lock up when you leave.

 

That would have been much more entertaining then the snow monster! Show..quit the CGI and rampaging monsters/giants, it looks really, really stupid.

 

Your post made me think, "What the hell would Rump and Dimmy be driving too?"  They have never answered if anyone can leave Storybrooke with their memories intact, and Rump a dump wouldnt leave anyway withougt magic so what were they doing, driving around the Storybrooke bubble endlessly?

[BoPeeps]

Considering I watch this show for pure escapism and fantasy/campy/romp entertainment with witty blending of then and now I am never plagued by plot point holes the size of Manhattan or lapses in rationale, or even twisted relationship angst, I don't expect life lessons or tips on how to raise my children ala Disney morality. They have been raised and I am older and pretty much in tune with what reality is. I selfishly watch it for the chance to laugh and enjoy someone else's creative story telling desires. When it stops being creative and entertaining to me, I won't tune in.

 

Have the writers been swept up in Frozen cash cow farming? Maybe, but they so far are doing a great job of introducing it to a new audience and keeping touch with our core group until the centrics take over deeper into the season.

 

I was still entertained, especially with the visuals. The CGI has taken a (probably Disney "Frozen" control-freak fueled) leap in quality and while the whole 40 some minutes was rushed like everyone was ingesting speed at Granny's, it set up a ton of adventures. Now, a Once adventure sometimes lasts two pages of script, or is dragged out for 2000...we have to adjust ALL the time, which is still fun and still good.

 

Random observations :

Regina is a loose canon (literature- wise as well as persona-wise) Royal Psycho with inner struggles that are like a heavyweight belt-title within her head. I have ALWAYS liked Regina even as a hot mess. She makes no  logical sense, is fierce in her passions of the moment as well as her life time deeds and hasn't really got a clue who the hell she is. Her core soul is spur of the moment immature, then grown-up, then self-pitying. What a trip. But even with the two steps forward one step back, they have to give her some kind of progressive focus. Which is maybe what her son will help her with this season. She is only effective as long as she has stronger magic. Emma always was in her face even before she recaptured her magic, and as that magic becomes stronger, Regina can't afford to seriously take her on.

But really...she's no where close to solid redemption HEH. But does she need to be when in balance with everyone else struggling for it as well? We need the drammmmmaaaaa.

 

Robin? Oh please. This is *My Marian* who you would *go to hell and back for* and now she is sloppy seconds because she has miraculously been brought back to you and Roland ~and you have the hots for the crazy- lady mayor with super magic powers? In spite of your professed nobility to your vow, you just looked like shallow dork. You have shamed the cinematic memory of Errol Flynn, Sean Connery, Russell Crowe and MAYBE even Kevin Costner... Maybe.

 

Marian. Loosen up. You should be stronger than your *Help me, Save me* dialogue and ram rod straight posture :)

 

I like Elsa's snark (*reindeer man*, *I'm not bossy I am the Queen*) and Kristoff's sass back. Anna looks like the CGI human version of animated Anna. Amazing. So, too, is the Troll. Just please, no Olaf. PLEASE.   This should really sustain new viewers while satisfying the regular addicts. Good blend so far. Impressive even.

 

Rumple~Never put on that iconic costume again. NEVER. It sucked your individual personality out of you like a Dyson Vaccuum. However, the Wizard hat is highly cool. A possible new source of magic power for the ever-sneaky and beloved Dark One? Oh boy oh boy! And by the way, your wife is still very dippy. Your promise to Bae at his grave was somewhat touching, if token, but really, I hope they quit with the Neal stuff. They killed him off for a good Rumple-supporting reason. Let it go (yes I said those words)

 

Hook. Patience is a virtue but calling Emma on her crap is sexier. Get feisty. And whether portions of the fandom can handle it or not...you are the smoldering sexuality of ONCE. Long may you steammmmm. Emma...come ON, really? Kick yourself in the butt, woman. Serious baggage, emotional vulnerability, fear of commitment or not, you should appreciate this exquisite pirate booty devotedly standing before you and open that treasure chest. You will feel MUCH better in the morning! Skip the Netflix. (angst angst, yeah yeah, blah blah...good things come to those who wait and wait and wait...)

 

Grumpy...hahahaha. Evil Snowman. RUN!

 

I am still in for the longer haul with Adam and Eddie. It's a twisted trip, but still worth the smiles.

[Rumsy4]

 

Robin? Oh please. This is *My Marian* who you would *go to hell and back for* and now she is sloppy seconds because she has miraculously been brought back to you and Roland ~and you have the hots for the crazy- lady mayor with super magic powers? In spite of your professed nobility to your vow, you just looked like shallow dork.

 

Taking this to the Robin thread. 

[angelwoody]

Speaking of the newspaper. In the newspaper is besides the report about Gold to marry Belle French, an article about "Storybrooke Priory "Laughing" gargoyle has been vandalized", showing a picture of the very gargoyle statue we've seen in the scenes before, and "Volunteers help rebuild Storybrooke Heritage trail". Was looking if the date was visible but no luck with that. Details, details. LOL 

 

I noticed that too and it made me laugh!!  It's the little things in life, lol.

[Shanna Marie]

You have shamed the cinematic memory of Errol Flynn, Sean Connery, Russell Crowe and MAYBE even Kevin Costner... Maybe.

Don't forget the cartoon fox and Cary Elwes (even though that was a spoof, he made a really good Robin Hood). The cartoon fox would never have been all "Marian, who? Oh well, guess I'm stuck with her."

 

Thinking back on some discussion of the past few days, a few thoughts:

I'm not that bothered by either Emma's or Hook's behavior post-kiss, mostly because The Man Behind the Curtain was so visible that I can't even ascribe their behavior to the characters. It was so very obvious that they knew that the kiss needed some follow-up but they didn't have time to deal with it while setting up everything else in this episode, so they came up with a thin plot reason to delay dealing with it, while showing just enough of the aftermath (him being annoyed at getting the brush-off) to acknowledge that it happened.

 

However, I think I know what the poster pages(?) back meant about Emma owing Hook a happy ending if she's suddenly decided she's the happy endings fairy who brings happy endings to everyone. As a person, she doesn't owe him anything other than to treat him with human decency. However, if she believes she's responsible for making happy endings happen, I would hope that the steadfast friend who's jumped through portals and given up everything he owns for her would come higher on the happy ending priority list than the woman who's devoted her adult life to destroying Emma's parents, has made multiple attempts on Emma's life and who is now sad because she didn't get to execute the wife of the man she's had maybe two dates with. That happy ending doesn't have to be a traditional romantic one, and I'm not saying Emma owes Hook kisses or sex, just that I'd hope that his feelings would be more important to her than Regina's are.

 

Really, in the happy ending priority hierarchy, I'd think Henry would be #1 for Emma, then her family (parents and brother), then Hook, then all the other residents of Storybrooke, then random people she might have passed on the street in New York, and then maybe Regina. And that's being generous, since technically, Henry brought Emma to Storybrooke not to bring about happy endings in general, but to restore the happy endings Regina had taken away from everyone else, deliberately and vindictively. Other than breaking the curse and not doing anything deliberately to cause unhappiness, Emma is not responsible for anyone else's happiness. I also think she, herself, needs to be pretty high on the list because her happiness is key to the happiness of the people she cares about. If she's twisting herself around and being miserable trying to make Regina happy, which is a pretty impossible task until Regina figures out a few things, Emma's making the people who care about her unhappy. Making sure Regina isn't destroying the town is a valid goal, but giving her a happy ending? Not so much, and certainly shouldn't be a priority right now. I really hope that Emma's urging Regina to fight for her happy ending didn't mean fight for Robin, but rather to not give up on the idea of having a happy ending just because one thing didn't go her way.

[Camera One]

The snow monster was kinda weak.  As a blogger pointed out, him carefully stepping over barriers and what pushing a trash bin to the side, oooh how terrifying.  

LOL at the careful movements comment.  I guess I didn't mind the snow monster, because he pretty much looked like that in the animated movie.  So whenever Elsa feels scared or frightened, he just pops out?  So what if they didn't attack him, wouldn't he stop attacking back?  As someone else mentioned above, they should have cut the electrical lines out if they wanted Regina to defeat him instead.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, but the goofy effects are a part of the shows charm! I love the awful CGI, almost as I love the good CGI (I thought the rocks troll stuff looked pretty good at least)!

I am constantly trying to figure what the writers are doing with Regina. It just makes me nuts that she keeps swinging back and fourth. Maybe its realistic that she struggles with goodness, but the problem is, I don't feel her struggle. I just feel like its inconsistent writing. She just swings back to evil so quickly (and God knows how many peoples she's kept locked up in her jail house, even while she was "good") that her changes to good never seem genuine. They just need to find something new to do with the character.   

[KingOfHearts]

In the last scene with Regina, Sidney cracks me up. He's sarcastic, rolls his eyes, raises his eyebrows, etc. He's going to be a fun henchman.

[BoPeeps]

Emma does seem to be sort of an enabling empath to the people who have done the worst to her and openly hostile and guarded to the people she is afraid of loving and letting in to her soul. Perhaps that is why her actions are often misunderstood on a very literal level in parts of the fandom. Not that they want to go in that deep spiritual direction because they have to keep it somewhat light and campy, but she creates a lot of self-misery, and her empathic leanings are part of the reason she has been such a loner and lone wolf survivor all these years. It is not an easy place to dwell. Almost a curse in ways.

That is part of her life long journey~ to control it, but... more to a simpler point...

However, if she believes she's responsible for making happy endings happen, I would hope that the steadfast friend who's jumped through portals and given up everything he owns for her would come higher on the happy ending priority list than the woman who's devoted her adult life to destroying Emma's parents, has made multiple attempts on Emma's life and who is now sad because she didn't get to execute the wife of the man she's had maybe two dates with.

 

Yup. :)

 

Emma is still afraid of what loving Hook means. But she is getting to know that she picked the right man to trust with her vulnerability. Lean on him, Emma, he can hold you upright. He is growing in strength, too, right by your side.

 

Regina, Goddess love her, is a floundering, chaotic, psychotic, sociopathic, cynically but still hopefully romantic (and always very well dressed!) mess, but honestly...can't she do better than Robin in the Happy Ending Department??? I enjoyed their easy affection and sassy chemistry, and was glad to see SOMEONE actually having sexy, even frisky fun...but with the inclusion of Marian into the equation, (still shaking my head) this Robin Hood, as yet, hasn't risen to the strength of character needed to handle it. Regina seems more obsessed with actually having love and happy endings than with the individual person who Tink brought into her history.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm kind of pulling for a double crossing Sidney. He was really damn pissed about being put back in the mirror. It would be fun to see him scheming behind the scenes to mess with Regina instead of being her pet.

[Camera One]

I'm kind of pulling for a double crossing Sidney. He was really damn pissed about being put back in the mirror. It would be fun to see him scheming behind the scenes to mess with Regina instead of being her pet.

 

I sure hope so.  After what Regina has done to him, is he that love-obsessed with Regina that he's STILL willing to be her little henchman?  She opens the door to the prison and all is forgotten?  He is so pathetic.  He had potential but I thought he was already wasted in Season 1 and there appears to be no change on the character direction upon his return to the show.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

The Genie was not happy to be put in the mirror originally, either. In fact, until this episode, I had thought Sidney would already have despised her, even without the added insult of being locked up and forgotten about. This is the first time we've seen him since the Curse broke. Maybe it's "we are both" syndrome, because the Genie did not worship Regina after he found out that she had played him for a fool. I remember because it was one of the few times they really let Giancarlo Esposito show his chops. It was memory-less Sidney who was her henchman, not the uncursed Genie.

[KingOfHearts]

He wasn't mad about Regina locking him though because he assumed she was waiting for the right moment to release him. He seemed to have no doubts she had good intentions for him until she put him in the mirror again.

He's a nut just like her!

Edited October 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

I wonder if they wouldn't use Tinkerbell instead of Sidney if Rose McIver were available. She would make more sense as a sounding board for Regina, and they could have concocted some explanation as to why only fairy magic could spring Regina's memory of Marian.

Edited October 2, 2014 by FurryFury

[myril]

I wonder if they wouldn't use Tinkerbell instead of Sidney if Rose McIver were available. She would make more sense as a sounding board for Regina, and they could have concocted some explanation as to why only fairy magic could spring Regina's memory of Marian.

 

They used Sidney for a reason, think even if Tinkerbelle (Rose McIver) were available they would have used him. It's the angst factor. Sidney is not there as a sounding board for Regina, he is there for being the willing to do everything, lovesick , obsessed nutjob he is, and for being a significant part of Regina's evil past, an appendix of her dark soul.

[FurryFury]

But that makes zero sense if you think about it... Why would he act the same way as his cursed self did? His real personality seemed quite bitter at Regina in the fairybacks.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But that makes zero sense if you think about it... Why would he act the same way as his cursed self did? His real personality seemed quite bitter at Regina in the fairybacks.

I don't know about that. In Fruit of the Poisonous Tree maybe, but in all his Magic Mirror episodes he seems like a loyal servant. (The Thing You Love Most, Lost Girl, etc.) He seemed enthusiastic in 4x01 about helping Regina again. He was practically smiling when he asked her how he should kill Marian.

Edited October 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[myril]

But that makes zero sense if you think about it... Why would he act the same way as his cursed self did? His real personality seemed quite bitter at Regina in the fairybacks.

 

He was sure no happy camper that Regina had used him, and that he had become the Mirror, but he wanted to be close to her regardless. It was not even Regina who made him the Mirror, but his own wish did that to him:  He had one wish left from the three wishes of the Genie, and wished to be with Regina forever. The Genie / Sidney had fallen for Regina when he first met her, and she played him, and he happily let himself be played, he was obsessed with Regina already before he became Sidney, and interestingly so was his cursed self.

 

It could be interesting, if Sidney might now try to betray Regina, attempting to rewrite the book so that her happy ending would be with him.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, that would probably be interesting, but that would probably whitewash Regina (yet again) of her own crime of imprisoning him. "See, he was a bad guy all along! Regina was right to keep him locked up! And it was his own idea to kill Leopold, she wasn't guilty at all!", etc, etc.

[stealinghome]

Sidney is not there as a sounding board for Regina, he is there for being the willing to do everything, lovesick , obsessed nutjob he is, and for being a significant part of Regina's evil past, an appendix of her dark soul.

I agree with this. I think if Rose McIver were available, the show would absolutely bring her back and have her involved in the triangle, but not in the Sidney role. Tink likes Regina, but also recognizes what a homicidal nutjob she is--there's no way Tinkerbell would be like "Yeah, I'll totally help you off Marian!"

[KingOfHearts]

 

Tink likes Regina, but also recognizes what a homicidal nutjob she is--there's no way Tinkerbell would be like "Yeah, I'll totally help you off Marian!"

It would be more like, "See, if you had just listened to me in this first place, you wouldn't have this problem!"

[Mitch]

Oh I definatley think that Sydney is going to betray Regina. Maybe we wont's see him do so until 4b when Maliefienct makes her hopefully devious return.....( Im still holding hope white bread Marion is really Malif..would be even funnier if she was a shape shift Robin all along though way too kinky for this show.."I always wondered what it could be like, an experiment so to say...but really Regina, for all of that cleavage you show you are a bit of a dud...no wonder you had to cast a spell to have the Sheriff in your bed!" )

 

Was that goofy rock troll thing in the movie and is it actaully their grandfather? Plus for the episode, boring Henry had one line!

[Shanna Marie]

Was that goofy rock troll thing in the movie and is it actaully their grandfather?

The rock troll was in the movie, and his name is Grandpabbie. I think that's more like an elder respect/tribal title that everyone calls him, like the way a village elder might be called "Grandfather" by everyone in the village, regardless of blood relation. The rock trolls sort of adopted Kristoff when he was a small child, so he considers them his family, but I don't think the movie indicated that any particular one of them played a specific parent or grandparent role.

 

Regina seems more obsessed with actually having love and happy endings than with the individual person who Tink brought into her history.

Yeah, I think she just went for him because the tattoo made it seemed like a guaranteed outcome. He was a "safe" choice that wouldn't require any actual work to build the relationship, and she needed to tick off the romance box to have the full happy ending. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure she could pick him out of a lineup or explain why she liked him, aside from that tattoo. It kind of goes back to what they were saying in that villains feature on the DVDs. Her problem is that she's never entirely happy because she won't be happy until she gets it all -- or what she defines as all. She's so busy reaching for the next thing that she disregards what she currently has, and will sacrifice what she currently has to get that elusive thing that's out of reach. Like killing her loving father to cast the curse she's sure will make her happy. Or entirely forgetting that she has a son while she's all caught up in her relationship drama because the universe owes her true love.

[kili]

Was that goofy rock troll thing in the movie and is it actaully their grandfather?

 

The rock trolls save Anna after she is accidently injured by Elsa (Elsa is making snow hills and Ann is jumping from one to the next as fast as Elsa can make them, Elsa is struggling to stay in front of her leaping sister, slips on some ice and zaps her sister in the head as she falls). Kristoff, who appears to be a small, homeless child  (with a baby Sven as his helper in the ice cutting business) witnesses Grand Pappi curing Anna and giving advice to Elsa's parents (which her parents pretty much do the exact opposite of).  Somehow, Kristoff comes to be raised by the trolls (none of the adults that see struggling 5 year old Kristoff seem to care at all). When everybody is grown up, Anna goes in pursuit of Elsa (who has become overwhelmed with fear of her powers) and runs into Kristoff (at this point she is engaged to Prince Hans who she has known for 5 minutes).  At some point, Anna accidently gets zapped by Elsa again in the heart (which the trolls warn is a very bad thing). Kristoff worries about symptoms that Anna is experiencing and takes her to see the trolls (since he saw them cure her before). The trolls try to marry off the two and Kristoff finally gets them to listen. Grand Pappi says he can't fix that problem - "Only an act of true love" can. So, they race back to the castle to get Anna's fiance to kiss her.

 

So, the trolls are to be Anna's in-laws since they raised Kristoff. The trolls do have some magical powers and seem to know more about this ice stuff than the humans. The trolls themselves are secretive and Anna/Olaf have no idea that they even exist (Anna remained unconcious during her entire cure)

Edited October 2, 2014 by kili