S14.E03: Episode 3

[chitowngirl]

Rosalind requires her skills as a midwife when a disabled baby is delivered; a gas explosion in an old tenement building shocks the community; Sister Julienne calls on Trixie's managerial skills when she is summoned to a meeting with Dr Threapwood.
 

Airdate April 13, 2025 on PBS. Available now on Passport.

Edited March 28 by chitowngirl

[txhorns79]

Loved Executive Manager Trixie taking on the board, and am glad we finally seem to be done with the "Nonnatus House might be shut down!" storylines. 

I just couldn't with the spina bifida parents.  I get that having a child with a birth defect can be terrifying.  You don't know what could happen and the challenge can feel overwhelming.  That their first move was to abandon the kid was just too much for me.  In a way, it might be a blessing, if only because that baby deserves parents and/or a guardian who will love her. 

[jah1986]

The parents of the disabled baby were infuriating. They "needed" a perfect, "normal" child. At least they seemed to feel some guilt. And on some level I was glad the show didn't have them have a sudden change of heart but let the baby be sent to an orphanage because it's realistic. Some people are just horrible. I kept remembering earlier seasons with baby Susan (?) a victim of Thalidomide, who's father had a change of heart at the orphanage. These parents were not them.

Glad those other children didn't die in the explosion, or something else terrible because mom had to leave them alone. Alf did the right thing in the end.

Please leave Nonnatus House alone for the rest of the season. Trixie was awesome!

[Straycat80]

This episode was heartbreaking! Poor baby June with the hard hearted parents. She wasn’t  perfect enough for them but at least the nuns cared for her and loved her. I hope she was adopted by a loving family. 

I’m glad no one was hurt in the fire and the family and older man had a happy ending. 
 

 

[caitmcg]

The spina bifida couple: "We couldn't possibly give her the care she needs! No, we wouldn't accept any help!" By all appearances, they weren't lacking in material resources, just moral perspective.

In other news, the show still loves to have exigent circumstances act as an instant cure for racial bigotry.

[Badger]

I worked with a man with spina bifida who used a wheelchair.  He was quite overweight, and he told us his doctor admonished him that his weight was shortening his life.  He told him that the doctor who delivered him told his parents to leave him in the hospital because he'd be dead within a year.  He pointed out that even if he dropped dead right then, he had lived more than 40 years longer than anyone predicted.

[MissLucas]

I appreciate the spina bifida plot not having a 'happy end'. A touch of harsh realism is needed from time to time. As @Badger's post shows, even within medical circles spina bifida babies were not given much chances.  And back then it was often thought it better for the parents to just move on. We saw that very mindset a couple of seasons earlier when Sister Julienne found that baby that was left to die in a maintenance room.

I'm also not judging the parents. Not everybody is cut out for taking care of a disabled child - that's what happens when we see horrible stories of abuse and neglect of special needs kids in the news. Yes, they had the material resources for this which makes it harder to accept their decision. I admire people who shoulder that burden but the harsh reality is that not everyone can and there are many reasons why. That said it's possible that the parents will have a change of heart further down the road. 

Speaking of harsh realities - Trixie handling that misogynistic committee was great. They came prepared for 'typically' female appeals to emotions and got slapped down with facts, numbers, and the might of the power suit!

[Orcinus orca]

Trixie was incredible during her appearance before the pompous ass.  Go girl!

[Sarah 103]

 

On 4/2/2025 at 12:34 PM, MissLucas said:

Speaking of harsh realities - Trixie handling that misogynistic committee was great. They came prepared for 'typically' female appeals to emotions and got slapped down with facts, numbers, and the might of the power suit!

I want Trixie's power suit. I don't think I'd look good in it, but I still want it. 

Could someone explain the difference between being "in care" (I think that's what it was called) which is that Lasleys wanted and the orphanage where the baby ended up? 

 

[Jodithgrace]

I think they are talking about the Foster care system, and how it would be difficult to find foster parents for a disabled child. The only other alternative was to go straight into the orphanage, which is what they eventually did. 

Lots of different plots tonight. They seemed to have their hands full with the spina bifida case and the home alone children and curmudgeon downstairs, only to suddenly have Trixie facing the board as well! 

She did a masterful job, smilingly facing down their condescension with facts. 
 

Not to mention the pigeon! 

Edited Monday at 03:13 AM by Jodithgrace

[Quilt Fairy]

On 4/2/2025 at 11:34 AM, MissLucas said:

I'm also not judging the parents. Not everybody is cut out for taking care of a disabled child - that's what happens when we see horrible stories of abuse and neglect of special needs kids in the news. Yes, they had the material resources for this which makes it harder to accept their decision. I admire people who shoulder that burden but the harsh reality is that not everyone can and there are many reasons why. That said it's possible that the parents will have a change of heart further down the road.

I get what you're saying, but they didn't even try.  They never even asked to see their daughter, they just walked away, assuming - incorrectly - that social services would find a placement for her.  

[Ancaster]

We had that same coffee percolator!  It didn't get used that often (coffee too expensive), so it was kept in its original box like the one on the show.

I also have the same birth certificate, though mine is handwritten in beautiful copperplate, not typed.

[Driad]

They said the surgery on baby June was successful (whatever that meant) but did not predict how much she might be able to do. They said earlier that there could be a range of outcomes, but after the surgery couldn't they say more, e.g. whether she could move her legs?  I found this frustrating, and June's parents apparently assumed the worst.

[Orcinus orca]

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Could someone explain the difference between being "in care" (I think that's what it was called) which is that Lasleys wanted and the orphanage where the baby ended up? 

It is less likely foster care and more likely some sort of institution.  My cousin sent her Down Syndrome child to one when she was born.  I don't know what was available in the UK or who paid for it.  Remember that Reggie lives in such a place although he has Fred and Violet to visit.

Treatment and rehab for babies with spina bifida has obviously improved in the past 50 years.  It is sad that the parents didn't even stick around to find out about how extensive the disability would be for the child and I can't imagine walking away but that was then and perhaps they expected the absolute worst.  I think the show dropped the ball on having someone sit down with them and explain the long term prognosis but, for dramatic effect, just abandoning her was how the story went.

[libgirl2]

8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I get what you're saying, but they didn't even try.  They never even asked to see their daughter, they just walked away, assuming - incorrectly - that social services would find a placement for her.  

I was very angry with the parents. That was their child. What if the next one has a problem? Going to ship them off too and keep trying until you get a "good one"? Imagine finding out you have a sibling your parents abandoned? 

I have a friend who has a disability and was up for adoption. I don't even see it on her anymore. She is college educated, has raised a family and does everything everyone else can do with few limits. 

Edited Monday at 12:41 PM by libgirl2

[JudyObscure]

I've done a lot of quiet weeping over this show but baby June's the only one that made me full on ugly cry.

I can understand the young parents thinking they couldn't handle a disabled child. I remember crying in the hospital after my baby's birth fearing that I "couldn't handle" a normal baby and would accidentally touch his fontanel or fail to support his head enough when I picked him up. Like her, I had read all the books but I had never been around a real baby and was terrified by his fragility.

I think what this couple needed was a few forced days with June.  Too bad the midwives couldn't have lied and said they couldn't get transportation to the orphanage for a few days so June would have to stay with them. After a few days and nights the mom would be bossing everyone about how to change the diaper and use the blanket cage. 

 

[iMonrey]

Rosalind needs to work on her poker face. As soon as she realized something was wrong with baby June she made a beeline for the alarm button and then raced over to the sink without saying a word to the mother. It's a wonder the mother wasn't in hysterics wondering what was wrong.

I did expect the parents to have an eleventh hour change of heart, so the show took me by surprise not doing that.

Not sure I bought cranky old guy's sudden change of heart.

[Jodithgrace]

Well, he was cranky but couldn’t let children die. Plus I think that nurse (forgot her name) wore him down by not putting up with his BS. 

[jschoolgirl]

5 hours ago, Orcinus orca said:

think the show dropped the ball on having someone sit down with them and explain the long term prognosis

I wonder if something like this happened in the cut scenes.

[MissLucas]

32 minutes ago, jschoolgirl said:

I wonder if something like this happened in the cut scenes.

No, I saw the UK version and I can't recall such a scene.

By chance I came across an article of Spina Bifida the other day. A surgeon who oversaw (and performed most of) 230 surgeries gave the following numbers: 84% of patients were able to walk, a third have bladder and bowel control and 40% require a shunt for cerebrospinal fluid. (Two children did not survive.) He said that before prenatal surgery was an option almost all children required a wheelchair and a shunt and were without bladder control. There are also plenty of other complications - depending on the severity - that can't be fixed by surgery and physiological and neurological problems remain. From the short look we got June was probably a severe case. 

That's a lot to pack into a short scene and I'm not sure that back in those days such consultations were even advised. It's not that long ago in show-time that cancer patients were not being told the true nature of their illness.

Edited Monday at 04:51 PM by MissLucas

[Badger]

Here are the deleted scenes:

 

CTM 14.3

Right after Joyce visits Nerys, we go over to a scene of Shelagh teaching a relaxation class with Mrs. Lasley in attendance.

Right after we see the nuns and midwives at tea, we go to Rosalind and Joyce in their room.  Rosalind says she feels bad because the nuns didn't get a pay rise and she wants to get them a gift but she knows they couldn't accept it.  She asks Joyce what she plans to do with her money and she says she just wants to look at it.  She also tells Rosalind not to feel bad about getting a raise because they worked hard and they earned it.

They cut a scene of Mr. Lasley pacing and Miss Higgins asking him if he'd like to sit down and not wear a hole in her carpet.  He says he's okay.

They cut out a scene of Joyce visiting Nerys who is suspicious that she's checking up on her.  Joyce says she's brought orange juice and milk tokens.  The children are sitting at a table drawing and Joyce says they look good and that Nerys is obviously using the cream on their rashes.  Nerys thanks her for all her help, and Joyce says she can speak to her health visitor, but Nerys says there's no need.

They cut out a scene of Sister Julienne bringing a cup of tea to Trixie who is working on her address to the Board of Health. She tells her that so far she's just introduced herself and pointed out she's not a nun which Sister Julienne says should be obvious.  Trixie says she can't make any mistakes and that she wants to go through the statistics from 1969 backwards.

They cut out a bit when Joyce and Rosalind walked in the street.  It's Rosalind suggesting they use part of their wage increase to go see "The Italian Job" at the cinema.

They cut out a scene that starts out with Rosalind walking by Cyril's church and looking sad. She picks up Nigel and sees Violet who tells her that Fred was supposed to feed him but Heaven only knows where he is.  She then asks Rosalind about the baby and Rosalind says she's doing very well after her operation but they still don't know what's going to happen to her.

[dancingdreamer]

I felt angry with the parents  that just walked  away from their  little  girl who had spina bifida, I didn't  want to feel angry, but they talked  of other children. What if they are handicapped ,do they just toss them aside as well. More care was given to the pigeon. I don't  know if I was angry,  or just very upset, or both.

[Notabug]

12 hours ago, Driad said:

They said the surgery on baby June was successful (whatever that meant) but did not predict how much she might be able to do. They said earlier that there could be a range of outcomes, but after the surgery couldn't they say more, e.g. whether she could move her legs?  I found this frustrating, and June's parents apparently assumed the worst.

A baby with spina bifida as large and in the location we saw on the show has virtually no chance of normal neurologic function below the defect.  That doesn't mean June wouldn't be able to move her legs; but she will almost undoubtedly need significant therapy to be able to walk and probably would need leg braces, a walker, other aids to be able to walk at all.  Kids with spina bifida also often cannot urinate on their own and require intermittent catheterization.  There are myriad other issues besides being able to walk.

June's parents may have assumed the worst, but even the best possible outcomes would probably include significant neurologic issues with walking.  Many kids with spina bifida also develop hydrocephalus which is why they were talking about the dimensions of her head.  Hydrocephalus requires placement of a surgical shunt into the head as well as an increased risk of developmental disabilities, seizures, etc.

Edited Monday at 05:27 PM by Notabug

[Badger]

3 minutes ago, dancingdreamer said:

I felt angry with the parents  that just walked  away from their  little  girl who had spina bifida, I didn't  want to feel angry, but they talked  of other children. What if they are handicapped ,do they just toss them aside as well. More care was given to the pigeon. I don't  know if I was angry,  or just very upset, or both.

I'm going to push back a bit on the idea the parents were evil. They seemed genuinely sad about leaving their baby and somewhat ashamed.  

I have a question for anyone who lived in the UK at the time:  In one of the deleted scenes we see Nerys cleaning up after the children and she has white baby dolls.  Nothing wrong with that, but did they have black baby dolls in the UK then?  I don't mean golliwogs or Barbie type dolls. I mean regular old baby dolls.  

 

 

[MissLucas]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

I have a question for anyone who lived in the UK at the time:  In one of the deleted scenes we see Nerys cleaning up after the children and she has white baby dolls.  Nothing wrong with that, but did they have black baby dolls in the UK then? 

I live in continental Europe but I remember visiting an aunt and one of my cousins had a black baby doll which I found so fascinating I talked her into gifting the doll to me. That was in the early 70s, pretty close to the time frame the show is now in. And it was  a regular black baby with curly hair (I don't even know what a golliwog is but I've seen the term enough times to not want to google it).

Edited Monday at 05:40 PM by MissLucas

[JudyObscure]

Thanks to Notabug and Miss Lucas I'm beginning to get a feeling for just how devastating a condition this is.  I had the feeling we were to think the mother had researched it a little before the parents made their decision since she had read all the books about pregnancy and birth.

So they were looking at a very likely case of a child who would never walk, never be potty trained, probably need a catheter and a shunt for spinal fluid and maybe a shunt in her brain, too.  Possibly mentally challenged with seizures and never able to do much for herself.

That's a lot and I wouldn't judge any parent for their decision, only be grateful I never had to make one like that.

"Prenatal surgery," sounds like an amazing and wonderful thing.  Thank God for that.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Jodithgrace said:

Well, he was cranky but couldn’t let children die. Plus I think that nurse (forgot her name) wore him down by not putting up with his BS. 

There is a difference between casual racism, believing stereotypes (which is completely awful) and letting people from that background, especially children, die in a horrible accident. 

35 minutes ago, dancingdreamer said:

I felt angry with the parents  that just walked  away from their  little  girl who had spina bifida, I didn't  want to feel angry, but they talked  of other children. What if they are handicapped ,do they just toss them aside as well. More care was given to the pigeon. I don't  know if I was angry,  or just very upset, or both.

I think it says a great deal about who they are as characters. Fred sees value and has compassion for almost all forms of life. Almost everything is worth being cared for, treated, and healed. 

[libgirl2]

Did I miss it but did they address the sores on the mother and kid's faces? 

Fun fact, the elderly gentleman was played by David Troughton, son of Doctor 2, Patrick! I recognized him right off. 

[mmecorday]

Quote

Did I miss it but did they address the sores on the mother and kid's faces? 

Impetigo 

I kept waiting for Dr. Turner to ask for a second cup of percolated coffee. And for Miss Higgins to think to herself, Funny. Dr. Turner never asks for a second cup of coffee. 

[Notabug]

43 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

"Prenatal surgery," sounds like an amazing and wonderful thing.  Thank God for that.

It can improve outcomes, but there are only a few centers in the US where it is done, mainly because spina bifida affects about 1 in 1000 kids, many of whom will have defects that are too severe/too high on the spine to be amenable to repair.  Sometimes the problem isn't found until after the baby has developed significant hydrocephalus which puts them at risk of other complications.  Also, there is a risk of preterm rupture of membranes, infection, preterm labor in pregnancies that undergo fetal surgery. Sometimes there is also a technical issue, like location of the placenta that makes fetal surgery impossible in a specific pregnancy.

With fetal surgery, about 80% of kids will be walking by the time they are two and a half, but most of them will need leg braces/walkers to assist them.

[Calvada]

I was disturbed that after handling that bird, feeding it a worm, Fred did not wash his hands before sitting down and eating.  

[proserpina65]

On 3/23/2025 at 10:44 PM, txhorns79 said:

I just couldn't with the spina bifida parents.  I get that having a child with a birth defect can be terrifying.  You don't know what could happen and the challenge can feel overwhelming. 

I actually got them, a bit, because I know I absolutely wouldn't be able to deal with having a disabled child.  (Full disclosure: I'd never be able to deal with any child, which is why I don't have any.)  So I was glad the writers didn't have the parents change their minds in the end.  I do wish they shown them agonizing over the choice, though.

16 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Not to mention the pigeon! 

That part just made me wonder if anyone is looking after the cat Cyril took in.

14 hours ago, Driad said:

They said earlier that there could be a range of outcomes, but after the surgery couldn't they say more, e.g. whether she could move her legs? 

My mom's boss had a daughter with spinal bifida, and from hearing various things about her, I know there can be a recurring problem with spinal fluid building up around the brain.  It's not necessarily something the doctors would know so soon, from what I understand.

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I've done a lot of quiet weeping over this show but baby June's the only one that made me full on ugly cry.

Whereas I didn't even tear up a little over this storyline.  I think I've gotten blase about this show and its tragedies since Barbara died.  That was the last time I really CRIED while watching.

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Thanks to Notabug and Miss Lucas I'm beginning to get a feeling for just how devastating a condition this is.  I had the feeling we were to think the mother had researched it a little before the parents made their decision since she had read all the books about pregnancy and birth.

So they were looking at a very likely case of a child who would never walk, never be potty trained, probably need a catheter and a shunt for spinal fluid and maybe a shunt in her brain, too.  Possibly mentally challenged with seizures and never able to do much for herself.

That's a lot and I wouldn't judge any parent for their decision, only be grateful I never had to make one like that.

"Prenatal surgery," sounds like an amazing and wonderful thing.  Thank God for that.

My mom's boss' daughter seems to have had a pretty serious defect.  She was wheelchair-bound and had multiple surgeries to adjust her stunt.  She was around 50  when she died a year or so ago, so she was born in the mid-70 so a little later than the year of this show.  Medicine has advanced a lot since then.

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Fred sees value and has compassion for almost all forms of life. Almost everything is worth being cared for, treated, and healed. 

Believing that and knowing you aren't capable of handling it when the problems involved are potentially severe are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[bluestocking]

I had a practical questions-- Could the parents just walk away and have no ongoing responsibilities?  Was there no requirement to support your disabled child if you didn't want to?  That's a lot of money the government will have to pay for the orphanage, while the parents owe nothing?  

[Sarah 103]

8 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Did I miss it but did they address the sores on the mother and kid's faces? 

Joyce gave them something for it (cream or ointment) and it seemed to be working. 

13 minutes ago, bluestocking said:

I had a practical questions-- Could the parents just walk away and have no ongoing responsibilities?  Was there no requirement to support your disabled child if you didn't want to?  That's a lot of money the government will have to pay for the orphanage, while the parents owe nothing?  

This only sort of answers your question. If I heard the line correctly, the orphanage was connected to the Mother House, which would mean the funds would be coming from the Anglican church and the government. 

[iMonrey]

10 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Well, he was cranky but couldn’t let children die. Plus I think that nurse (forgot her name) wore him down by not putting up with his BS. 

A lifetime of racism and apparent bitterness doesn't just magically go away because a nurse was nice to him. That said, this "feel good" ending was balanced against a rather tragic one for the parents of the child with spina bifida, so I'm not really up in arms about it. Every story shouldn't end in tragedy. Plus? When that building exploded it really caught me by surprise. Wasn't expecting that and was quite impressed by the effect.

8 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Did I miss it but did they address the sores on the mother and kid's faces? 

If you mean the source of them, Nerys said they picked them up from the group home or wherever they were living before then. 

[anna0852]

I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle those parents. They kept talking about how they couldn’t give the baby what she needed. I just wanted to scream back at them that they absolutely have the resources to raise this child and that the already overextended resources of social services are not going to be used in this scenario. There are children out there who desperately need those resources and whose parents aren’t in a position to provide them. June’s parents *can* provide for her and it is their duty and responsibility to do so. And how dare that mom write some sort of letter at the end trying to explain/justify her wretched choice!? By the time her daughter is old enough to read and understand it do you think June will in anyway be at peace with their decision or believe that they loved her? It was salt in the wound.

Edited Tuesday at 02:54 AM by anna0852

[caitmcg]

Regarding spina bifida, studies in the US and UK in the 1980s and early 1990s linked the importance of folic acid, a B vitamin, in the first trimester and especially early on in pregnancy, with the prevention of neural tube defects like spina bifida. This is why it's recommended that women of childbearing age be sure to take in a minimum amount of folic acid and further, why the US mandated additional supplementation of foods like packaged breads and breakfast cereals beginning in the early 1990s, given the percentage of pregnancies that are unplanned. 

[libgirl2]

8 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle those parents. They kept talking about how they couldn’t give the baby what she needed. I just wanted to scream back at them that they absolutely have the resources to raise this child and that the already overextended resources of social services are not going to be used in this scenario. There are children out there who desperately need those resources and whose parents aren’t in a position to provide them. June’s parents *can* provide for her and it is their duty and responsibility to do so. And how dare that mom write some sort of letter at the end trying to explain/justify her wretched choice!? By the time her daughter is old enough to read and understand it do you think June will in anyway be at peace with their decision or believe that they loved her? It was salt in the wound.

I'm not sure I would want to read that letter. What was the point? IT wasn't as if it were a case of a teen mother who couldn't provide for her child. This couple just didn't want to deal with it. What could that letter say? "Sorry we just did't want to have to take care of a sick child and moved on......"? 

[Orcinus orca]

Nerys and the kids had impetigo which is a highly contagious staph infection.  They probably picked it up at the homeless shelter.

41 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I'm not sure I would want to read that letter. What was the point?

I honestly thought that the nun would pitch it.  What a slap in the fact to that child when she got old enough to read it.  It was disgusting for the parents to even write it, there was no way in hell it contained anything that would make that child feel better.

[anna0852]

12 minutes ago, Orcinus orca said:

I honestly thought that the nun would pitch it.  What a slap in the fact to that child when she got old enough to read it.  It was disgusting for the parents to even write it, there was no way in hell it contained anything that would make that child feel better.

It would’ve been wildly out of character for this show, but it would have been delicious if the sister had taken the envelope, looked the mom in the eye and ripped it in half. I know this particular order is all about service to the community without passing judgment, but this situation called for little judgment!

[MissLucas]

As I said I'm willing to give the parents some grace. But yes, even if they felt overwhelmed and were not willing to care for June at home (which may or many not have been even possible) they could have handled this better. Not just for June's sake but also for their own. Make no mistake, June's story will turn into one of these family secrets that will fester for decades and have the potential to destroy marriages and rip families apart. I would not call this karma or comeuppance since their future children will also get entangled.

Edited Tuesday at 07:33 PM by MissLucas

[Notabug]

16 hours ago, bluestocking said:

I had a practical questions-- Could the parents just walk away and have no ongoing responsibilities?  Was there no requirement to support your disabled child if you didn't want to?  That's a lot of money the government will have to pay for the orphanage, while the parents owe nothing?  

Any parent can surrender custody of their child to the government.  In the US, it is the county that handles it.  That is how adoption works.  The child's medical condition is not a consideration.  The county social services uses foster homes as well as a wide variety of institutions, including church-founded orphanages and group homes to house children in their custody.

[eel2178]

On 3/29/2025 at 8:19 PM, Badger said:

I worked with a man with spina bifida who used a wheelchair.  He was quite overweight, and he told us his doctor admonished him that his weight was shortening his life.  He told him that the doctor who delivered him told his parents to leave him in the hospital because he'd be dead within a year.  He pointed out that even if he dropped dead right then, he had lived more than 40 years longer than anyone predicted.

Well in the 1980s, there were pediatricians who believed that all children with spina bifida would get meningitis and die before their first birthdays, so it would be futile to try to give them any medical care as newborns.

On 4/13/2025 at 11:04 PM, Driad said:

They said the surgery on baby June was successful (whatever that meant) but did not predict how much she might be able to do. They said earlier that there could be a range of outcomes, but after the surgery couldn't they say more, e.g. whether she could move her legs?  I found this frustrating, and June's parents apparently assumed the worst.

The surgery successfully closed the myelomeningocele (the big lump on her back that was made up of the improperly formed and externalized spinal column).

That would give them an early guess as to her prognosis, again, if she didn't develop meningitis and die. Today, an MRI would be able to reveal precisely which of the spinal nerves were involved and give a more accurate prognosis for her.

On 4/14/2025 at 6:41 AM, libgirl2 said:

I was very angry with the parents. That was their child. What if the next one has a problem? Going to ship them off too and keep trying until you get a "good one"? Imagine finding out you have a sibling your parents abandoned? 

It was once very common to institutionalize all newborns who had mental or physical defects. "Forget you ever had her" was actually something that was encouraged by the medical professionals.

Once abortion became an option, amnios were done to give a prediction of what kind of defects the baby could have and give the parents a way out long before birth. 

On 4/14/2025 at 10:47 AM, MissLucas said:

By chance I came across an article of Spina Bifida the other day. A surgeon who oversaw (and performed most of) 230 surgeries gave the following numbers: 84% of patients were able to walk, a third have bladder and bowel control and 40% require a shunt for cerebrospinal fluid. (Two children did not survive.) He said that before prenatal surgery was an option almost all children required a wheelchair and a shunt and were without bladder control. There are also plenty of other complications - depending on the severity - that can't be fixed by surgery and physiological and neurological problems remain. From the short look we got June was probably a severe case. 

We've come a long way, baby, even just since 1970.

If you want to hear first hand stories about how children with "defects" were handled back in the old days and what they were able to overcome, read Karen by Marie Killilea or watch My Left Foot. 

[Driad]

Since this couple's first child has spina bifida, would later children be more likely to have it?

In the real world, the parents would probably have relatives with opinions on what to do with June. But the TV world usually doesn't have time for those.

I forget who suggested the name June, but I was half expecting "She was born on Saint ___'s day, so let's name her ___ ."

[Notabug]

2 minutes ago, Driad said:

Since this couple's first child has spina bifida, would later children be more likely to have it?

In the real world, the parents would probably have relatives with opinions on what to do with June. But the TV world usually doesn't have time for those.

I forget who suggested the name June, but I was half expecting "She was born on Saint ___'s day, so let's name her ___ ."

Yes, there is a genetic aspect to spina bifida.  In the regular US  white population, the risk is 1 in 1000 pregnancies.  If a woman has had a child with spina bifida, that increases to about 5 in 100.  That is typical for multifactorial inheritance; which are diseases that involve multiple genes.

The highest rates of spina bifida are found in Caucasians in northern Europe.  As you move south, the rates decrease.

Edited Tuesday at 08:02 PM by Notabug

[Badger]

10 hours ago, eel2178 said:

Well in the 1980s, there were pediatricians who believed that all children with spina bifida would get meningitis and die before their first birthdays, so it would be futile to try to give them any medical care as newborns.

The surgery successfully closed the myelomeningocele (the big lump on her back that was made up of the improperly formed and externalized spinal column).

That would give them an early guess as to her prognosis, again, if she didn't develop meningitis and die. Today, an MRI would be able to reveal precisely which of the spinal nerves were involved and give a more accurate prognosis for her.

It was once very common to institutionalize all newborns who had mental or physical defects. "Forget you ever had her" was actually something that was encouraged by the medical professionals.

Once abortion became an option, amnios were done to give a prediction of what kind of defects the baby could have and give the parents a way out long before birth. 

We've come a long way, baby, even just since 1970.

If you want to hear first hand stories about how children with "defects" were handled back in the old days and what they were able to overcome, read Karen by Marie Killilea or watch My Left Foot. 

"Karen" is indeed a great book.  Fun Fact:  The Killileas were friends with John Kerr who was a prominent New York theater critic and his wife Jean who was a best selling author in her own right.

[Quilt Fairy]

18 hours ago, Orcinus orca said:

Nerys and the kids had impetigo which is a highly contagious staph infection.  They probably picked it up at the homeless shelter.

I had impetigo when I was about 8 or 9.  No idea where I got it, it wasn't going around or anything.  My mother was appalled.  She told one of her friends, "I can't believe it.  The boy next store plays in the dirt, hell, eats dirt, and my kid who sits inside all day reading gets this?" 

Edited Yest. at 06:22 AM by Quilt Fairy

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

"Karen" is indeed a great book.  Fun Fact:  The Killileas were friends with John Kerr who was a prominent New York theater critic and his wife Jean who was a best selling author in her own right.

I think I read all of Jean, "Please Don't Eat the Daisies," Kerr's books at one time. 

Now I want to read, "Karen." All I know about Cerebral Palsy, I learned from watching the amazing young actor in "Breaking Bad."

[Notabug]

9 hours ago, Badger said:

"Karen" is indeed a great book.  Fun Fact:  The Killileas were friends with John Kerr who was a prominent New York theater critic and his wife Jean who was a best selling author in her own right.

Kerr's first name was Walter.  Jean Kerr wrote Please Don't Eat the Daisies about her chaotic family life with a bunch of sons which became a movie starring Doris Day and later a television series.  Her book mentions the Killileas and the Kerr family is mentioned in Karen as well as the sequel(s).  The two moms seemed to be close friends.

ETA:  The Killilea's are very devout Catholics and Marie is not shy about talking about her faith and its impact on her life, both with parenting Karen and her other kids as well as everything else she does.  She isn't obnoxious about it, IMO, but it is an integral part of her life and she talks about it. If you don't like people referring to their faith frequently; you may not enjoy Karen or the sequels.

Edited 22 hours ago by Notabug

[Notabug]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I think I read all of Jean, "Please Don't Eat the Daisies," Kerr's books at one time. 

Now I want to read, "Karen." All I know about Cerebral Palsy, I learned from watching the amazing young actor in "Breaking Bad."

Karen and the later books provide real insight into what it is like to be both parent and caregiver to a child with CP.  The first book spends considerable time discussing how difficult it is for a child with severe CP to learn to walk and what sacrifices they and the parents must make.  One of the later books, written when Karen was a teen or young adult; has a really good discussion of whether Karen should continue walking with crutches and braces despite the amount of effort it takes to do so or whether it might be better for her to use a wheelchair and have more energy to enjoy the places she goes and interact with people.  It's very eye opening as to the seemingly small things that make a huge difference.

BTW, Karen just died in 2020 but lead a productive life working as a receptionist and living in her own condo.  She didn't like the term 'handicapped' instead referring to herself as permanently inconvenienced.