S02.E10: Cold Harbor

[juno]

Season finale. Mark forms a shaky alliance in an all-or-nothing play, while the team makes a dangerous last stand.

Title:Cold Harbor

Air Date:March 21, 2025

Edited March 21 by juno

[jacehan]

Wow.

[Penman61]

• "Windmills of Your Mind" by Mel Tormé
• Grainy freeze-frame with slow push-in
• Hand-holding girl and guy on the run from the corporate/political baddies

Convince me this episode isn't a 1970s paranoid thriller directed by Alan Pakula or Norman Jewison.

[Mr. R0b0t]

I still need to digest, but I believe this finale was uneven and for me had some high highs and some head-scratching lows.  Really interested to see what others think.

Some spoiler-ish musings:

•   Reveal spoiler

  • Helly gives a rousing speech asking the band for help, but help to do what exactly? Hold the door? kill Seth? Just found it weird she wasn't specific
  • I wanted Mark S. to knock Helly out, leave with Gemma and they all move to the birthing cabin together and timeshare Mark.  lol
  • Anyone have any idea what the severance is for?  I still have no idea other than they want to partition consciousness 
  • I miss Irving's energy
  • Did anyone else feel like Devon got a little stranger as the season progressed? 
  • Soooo Cold Harbor was the crib... it was right there under our nose the whole time
  • Loved seeing Drummond get taken out like he did
  • Do you think Gemma signed up for this (or something she was tricked into signing up for)? oooor did they really have her in a car wreck?

   

Edited March 21 by Mr. R0b0t
clarity

[Penman61]

^Agree.

Superbly directed, viscerally and narratively (mostly) satisfying...up until Mark's final decision.

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, and I see how the writers set Mark's choice up, but choosing Helly and them staying inside struck me as obviously trying to prolong the show into another season...choosing Gemma would have been like a series finale choice.

[Ms Lark]

Holy cow! Or goat. (Yay, Gwennie!) Immediately re-watching. Must digest. My brain is 🤯

I need Choreography and Merriment to adjust.  Need to wait to go full out until more folks have a chance to watch before being spoiled by accident.

[jacehan]

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:23 AM, Mr. R0b0t said:

Helly gives a rousing speech asking the band for help, but help to do what exactly? Hold the door? kill Seth? Just found it weird she wasn't specific

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IIRC she have specifically asked them to help keep Milchick in.

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:23 AM, Mr. R0b0t said:

Anyone have any idea what the severance is for?  I still have no idea other than they want to partition consciousness 

Expand  

It seemed to me not just that they Gemma, but that they removed all of her emotions to make her completely subservient. All the other innies we've seen react very poorly to waking up with no idea who they are, in a strange place. But now with Cold Harbor Gemma had no such response, or even questioning, or even speech? (Did she speak?) She just calmly did as she was told.

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:32 AM, Penman61 said:

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, and I see how the writers set Mark's choice up, but choosing Helly and them staying inside struck me as obviously trying to prolong the show into another season...choosing Gemma would have been like a series finale choice.

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It makes sense that Mark made the choice he did. He was pretty sure that, if he stepped into that staircase, he would be dead. Running off with Helly might also lead to dying, but at least it would be a little longer first. Maybe having time-share Mark like Mr. Robot suggested will be the happy ending in the series finale.

Of course, that would require Helly to be Helly and not Helena. But it kinda seemed like Jame wants to replace Helena with Helly? What a creep.

[Sarahsmile416]

I keep seeing people in other places being angry at IMark, but truly, Lumon is the one to blame for this.  Truly, FAFO bitches.  In IMark's perspective, running out with Gemma (in his perspective, Ms Casey) is equivalent to ruining his little swath of life he has made for himself.  I can see why he would make the choice he did.  

I just hope Gemma makes it out okay....curious to see where they go from here 

Also, the reality is, even if Mark had gone out with Gemma, after everything, their marriage problems still remain.    We could see in the Gemma episode that their marriage was actually fairly rocky at the point that Gemma "died.". If he had, the show would look very different going forward, so knowing there is a S3 coming, they almost had to end it like this 

Edited March 21 by Sarahsmile416

[seank941]

I thought this was a pretty good finale, although not as good as season 1. I really liked the conversation between Innie and Outie Mark, and loved that we sort of got an answer as to what reintegration would be like. I'm curious to know when Outie Mark found out about Helly; did Cobel tell him, or did he find out in one of his memories? Did he know before he met Helena at the restaurant?                                         

I know Mark violated all kinds of rules, but at the end of the day all he did was save Lumon a lot of money. He basically proved that Cold Harbor was a failure. Now Lumon can adjust the chip and start Cold Harbor 2.0 with a new subject/victim. Outie Mark killed an employee, so I don't think anyone will want the police investigating. 

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:32 AM, Penman61 said:

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, and I see how the writers set Mark's choice up, but choosing Helly and them staying inside struck me as obviously trying to prolong the show into another season...choosing Gemma would have been like a series finale choice.

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I'm not really sure where this story goes as long as Gemma is alive. I actually thought they might kill her during the escape so that Outie Mark could say a proper goodbye. At some point he's gonna have to choose between the two, and it doesn't seem like Outie Mark would pick Helly. Maybe after he finishes reintegrating he will love Helly more, but that seems like a whole season type of story. A story where Mark has to choose between Helena/ Helly would be just as complicated, but easier to resolve.

A few unanswered questions:

1. What happens to all the leftover goats?

2. Does Lumon make their own guns?

3. Who was the voice in the Kier statue? I loved his exchange with Milchick.

[arc]

The innie-outie conversation between the Marks was well done. Innie Mark has every right to be suspicious about outie Mark's true intentions. After all, outie Mark created him and put him in hell in the first place.

I laughed pretty hard at Milchick sprinting out of the break room after leaving outie Dylan's message.

Woof, that completion celebration ceremony with Milchick and the animatronic Kier was rough. Milchick is definitely getting fired today, right?

Ahaha, he dragged the animatronic statue out and then had to quick change to a new suit. Also, I unironically love marching bands. But my logical side wonders how they got so many severed people there for this. Or is the entire marching band unsevered? ... oh, "choreography and merriment" is a full severed floor department, not just a phrase Milchick said. So Lumon pays like 40 people to come to work every day and rehearse being a marching band? That's pretty dope, except for the outie not getting to know it.

... you cannot tell me this marching band performance is really for Mark. This is 100% for Milchick. He is so into it.

Drummond's pure evil. This hallway fight was brutal and Drummond clearly outmatches Mark S, even if Mark S has the feral nature of a child. Actually, Drummond has his own feral nature. Mark needs outside help just like Helly got with Dylan's last minute save. I think it's gotta be Gwendolyn Christie's character ("Lorne"), who also helpfully has the bolt gun... and I was right!

Oh shit, I definitely did not expect the innie-outie transition to make Mark involuntarily pull the trigger. Rest in piss, Mr Drummond. He made it further in your season than Graner did in his. Drummond would have survived if he'd just done the goat sacrificing himself and let Lorne go back to MN. Serves him right for always picking the most cruel option.

Ahahahahaha, Milchick took a trombone to the face. This job cannot possibly be worth it, Seth. This cult cannot possibly be worth it.

Holy fuck, Drummond's blood on the tie unlocked the door. My jaw is on the floor. Mark Scout is so much better under pressure than I would be.

Wow, Jame Eagan actually is fully alive! His weird restraint up to this point had me thinking he was half dead.

OK, what is innie Mark's plan? He must at least guess that Drummond's dead, and Cold Harbor is done. He has no possible chance of staying employed on the severed floor. This is like innie Irving abandoning the OTC mutiny plan as soon as he woke up, but like 10 times dumber. Love makes you dumb. I did like them ending on a freeze frame though.

The end credits are a real treat this episode.

Per the credits, the Kier operator was Marc Gellar, but I'm not sure if that was the actor likeness or the voice actor. Maybe it's both? But Gellar has been credited as Kier before, so I'm leaning towards likeness.

quick rundown of loose threads left unresolved:

• Milchick's rebellion or lack thereof. Drummond getting killed this episode neatly solves having mouthed off to his boss. Maybe his next monthly review will be conducted by a friendlier face.
• Irving's exile. And also how and why he got started investigating Lumon, and how he knew about the testing floor.
• The MDR doppelgangers, and also the man in the hallway from the season premiere, and also the MDR watchers.
• Ricken selling out.
• who the hell the Board is.

Things satisfyingly addressed:

• the Mark/Helly/Gemma love polygon. Not fully resolved, but they went a good long ways with it.
• the goats: this cult likes animal sacrifices, I guess? And in true Lumon "not invented here" fashion, the goats have to be raised on the premises.
• Gemma's car accident -- not that explicitly addressed, but her outie clearly recognized her Cold Harbor outfit as the one she left Mark in. And the goal of the Cold Harbor room was to sever her so absolutely from her outie. I'm guessing she willingly went to Lumon's testing floor. Maybe under incomplete information, but I don't think she was kidnapped, I don't think she actually died and was resurrected.

and the rest (Cobel's wavering allegiances, outie/innie Dylan's fight with himself, Helly having some reason to come back to the severed floor (Jame thinks she has more of the spirit of Kier in her than Helena)) feel like there's a lot of meat on there for another season.

I hope the next super evil Lumon dirty-jobs guy will make it past one season. Just for a change. Maybe that'll be Milchick's promotion, and then he'll have a face turn moment instead of getting murdered?

Actually, wait, one more thought occurs. Why was Gemma ever sent up to the severed floor to be Ms Casey? If they have the budget for a full marching band, they could certainly have had a full time wellness counselor. Maybe it was a special request by Cobel, but why would the testing floor supervisors ever have agreed to it?

Edited March 21 by arc

[Dev F]

  On 3/21/2025 at 6:21 AM, arc said:

OK, what is innie Mark's plan? He must at least guess that Drummond's dead, and Cold Harbor is done. He has no possible chance of staying employed on the severed floor.

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Was I the only one who assumed the plan was to lead a rebellion and take over the Lumon building so they never have to unsever?

Mark and Helly are meeting again at the Equator—the building that became a continent.

[Affogato]

It is interesting that Jame wanted Helena to eat her eggs raw—show some spirit. What he doesn’t see in Helena he sees in Helly, saw in Helly, and goes down to the severed floor to talk to her. What the f. There are flashes of Helena in her during the course of the episode. Helly will be capable of cruelty to get what she wants. 

i’n pretty sure oMark and Gemma’s relationship was toast before the last two years happened. We still don’t know why Gemma was there, either. . In any case iMark is not oMark. At one point he tells Helly that if they rescue Gemma he will take her to the door and leave her for his outie to sort out. Which is what he does.  
 

There are a lot more severed than we previously knew. A marching band. And there are a lot of test subjects who die and are honored with a sacrificial goat, apparently. Gwendolyn Christy will be back, I’m sure. 
 

i wonder how all if them will be fed after the uprising. The pictire we saw earlier showed cannibalism. It may not get that far. 
 

Mitchick may still be a good guy. Hard to tell. The Glasgow protocol will come up again. 
 

[overtherainbow]

RE Milchick - I guess his whole job was just to make sure Mark finished Cold Harbor. He was done with dealing with Drummond’s condescension but it’s not a big surprise he would still be a Lumon loyalist when so much of his career rode on Mark completing the final file so Gemma would be fully detached.

The question remains as to why Lumon wants to sever Gemma 25 different ways. Is it easier to create mind controlled slaves this way so they can have the same person do 25 different jobs or something more sinister? 

The revelation that there are severed employees whose whole job is to play in a marching band is somehow more depressing than the revelation that Lumon is grooming bright middle schoolers into positions in the company. 

I doubt a rebellion will work if they have Glasgow Protocol and one of the higher ups can basically say a word and disorient them to shift them to their outie who is a totally different person, unless it only works individually and not en masse. 

As far as why Ms. Casey was a wellness counselor, my guess would maybe be that innie Mark still needed some level of connection with his wife on the subconscious level for him to refine her, or having that connection made the process faster. But a lot about this show is still a mystery. 

Hopefully we won't have to wait another 3 years for season 3. 

 

[catsitter]

I don't know how Mark managed to keep track of where he was in the left right left directions. And I guess all the time that Helly spent memorising them was wasted.

 

Also, couldn't Ms Cobel have given Mark some tips on exactly how to rescue Gemma?

[gail56]

As for Gemma being Ms Casey, I thought that was for the purpose of exposing Mark and Gemma  to each other to see if they recognized each other on any level. I forget which episode, but Cobel mentioned this. I think she and Milchick  were watching them when Ms Casey was standing behind innie Mark in that one episode. They noted that the chip was holding, or something like that, in that they didn't react to each other.

Edited March 21 by gail56

[iMonrey]

I enjoyed the scenes of Mark's innie and outie talking to each other via video camera. And I thought the rescue plan for Gemma had real possibilities. But overall I still felt like there was way too much weirdness just to make it weird. The whole marching band number and Milchick dancing around like an idiot, I just found those things unbelievably stupid. And the thing with the goats really doesn't make any sense either, from the weirdness of the people tending to them to their ultimate use.

Finally, Mark's decision to run off with Helly might feel emotionally satisfying but it makes no logical sense. There's nowhere for them to go.

[KarenX]

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:47 PM, iMonrey said:

I enjoyed the scenes of Mark's innie and outie talking to each other via video camera. And I thought the rescue plan for Gemma had real possibilities. But overall I still felt like there was way too much weirdness just to make it weird. The whole marching band number and Milchick dancing around like an idiot, I just found those things unbelievably stupid. And the thing with the goats really doesn't make any sense either, from the weirdness of the people tending to them to their ultimate use.

Finally, Mark's decision to run off with Helly might feel emotionally satisfying but it makes no logical sense. There's nowhere for them to go.

Expand  

Hahaha what? You’r saying you didn’t like the image of our poor Mr Milchick crouching atop a toppled monolith I mean vending machine surrounded by a crowd of angry primates, bathed in red?

So there was that 2001 moment, plus the final scene of Helly and Mark as shellshocked as the last scene of The Graduate, plus those 1960s closing credits… am I missing anything? I know Helly whispering to Mark, “I wish we had more time,” is from something (besides Back to the Future). Plus there was a line of dialogue (Mark to Gemma) that was basically “Come with me if you want to live” (Terminator).

I wonder if Season 3 Episode 1 will be a time jump backwards.

A N Y W A Y

Mark and Helly know all they have is moments. I think they know there is nowhere for them both to go, but the whole thing was so apocalyptic I don’t think the characters believe there is anywhere to go. They are just with each other.

I was pleased that Mark S could play the hero without compromising his sense of self. Honestly I don’t care much about Mark and Gemma Scout as a couple but Gemma was a person who very badly needed help and I was so happy she got it.

 

[questionfear]

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:33 PM, gail56 said:

As for Gemma being Ms Casey, I thought that was for the purpose of exposing Mark and Gemma to each to each other to see if they recognized each other on any level. I forget which episode, but Cobel mentioned this. I think she and Milchick  were watching them when Ms Casey was standing behind innie Mark in that one episode. They noted that the chip was holding, or something like that, in that they didn't react to each other.

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Yup plus why they had the candle from Mark's basement, etc. It was all part of testing if there was bleed-through. 

[AstridM]

  On 3/21/2025 at 12:04 PM, Affogato said:

i’n pretty sure oMark and Gemma’s relationship was toast before the last two years happened.

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I’m assuming you’ve never been married? 🤦‍♀️

[Affogato]

  On 3/21/2025 at 2:16 PM, overtherainbow said:

The question remains as to why Lumon wants to sever Gemma 25 different ways. Is it easier to create mind controlled slaves this way so they can have the same person do 25 different jobs or something more sinister? 

The revelation that there are severed employees whose whole job is to play in a marching band is somehow more depressing than the revelation that Lumon is grooming bright middle schoolers into positions in the company. 

I doubt a rebellion will work if they have Glasgow Protocol and one of the higher ups can basically say a word and disorient them to shift them to their outie who is a totally different person, unless it only works individually and not en masse. 

 

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I think they want to identify and refine the emotional responses, frolic and woe and all. They can eliminate one ir the other from an individual’s life. It does appear to run like Scientology.  Gemma would be clear  

re the band and goats, there is a huge religious component that is maybe not directly connected to anything. 
 

when the Glascow was used it made an outie to a innie. 

[AstridM]

  On 3/21/2025 at 4:19 PM, KarenX said:

So there was that 2001 moment

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?? I thought you were referencing Planet of the Apes, from 1968.

[Affogato]

  On 3/21/2025 at 5:01 PM, AstridM said:

I’m assuming you’ve never been married? 🤦‍♀️

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I may have put that badly, although that is a situation that fractures relationships. I’m not sure I see them getting back together now for reasons that may have been present in the marriage. The response to conflict was severing from each other? Maybe. 

Edited March 21 by Affogato

[Sarahsmile416]

  On 3/21/2025 at 5:14 PM, Affogato said:

I may have put that badly, although that is a situation that fractures relationships. I think I meant that if Mark loses everything when she died, drank and lost his job, no evident friends, only functioning for her,  and if she made a seal of any sort without him (we don’t know this) this is red flags all around. 

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Agreed.  This is not even considering the miscarriage and the difficulty they had in communicating afterwards.  Realistically speaking, this is not something that could ever have just been glossed over. 

[ombre]

Well.  This episode very successfully answers what is, in retrospect, the only question worth asking: does the spirit of Ben Vereen cross universes?  Either Milchick grew up on a steady diet of Pippin and All That Jazz, or Vereen is simply an elemental force, as I have long suspected.

More to the point, man, the marching band was such an excellent way to raise the most important questions of violence long before any punches were thrown.  It was such a major quiet theme of the first season - MDR would take O&D because it was only two people, oh wait, no, they'd be totally out matched.  Milchick is outnumbered in general but controls the group by manipulating numbers, interests, alliances, etc.  I keep going on about the weakness of Lumon's strict hierarchy as opposed to the mutual support of the MDR crew, but it's felt like a really important part of the overall story to me.  And now...  A marching band.  Heck *yeah*.  Because what is a marching band but a semblance of a military.  The unified action.  The aggressive, restrained dancing that highlights the marchers' strength (especially of thighs - all those half-squats) and lung capacity.  They are an army.  And Milchick thinks they're his army.  That poor, poor man.  He seems to still be saying that he's a company man, never mind that this company seems to be taking every opportunity to belittle him.  We'll see if that holds up in the next season.

As to the questions of why Lumon *has* a marching band?  Well, we know they do everything in house.  This seems to imply that they do enough pomp and circumstance stuff to have regular use for a band.  That they really get off on patting themselves on the back.  That they love a display of force.  That they are deeply prone to utter hubris.  And yes, we did already know that, but hey, as Chekov definitely meant to write: if you're working in a universe where the megacorp obviously is so pompous and hubristic as to have a marching band, wouldn't you want to get to fire that sucker off?

 

I'll have other thoughts at other times, but right now I'm digging the band.  In the extra bits, TT says something along the lines of "I gave them a *band!*" [implication: how could those ungrateful peons be unhappy?!?] and golly, I am coming to genuinely love that man.

[aghst]

  On 3/21/2025 at 5:05 AM, Sarahsmile416 said:

I keep seeing people in other places being angry at IMark, but truly, Lumon is the one to blame for this.  Truly, FAFO bitches.  In IMark's perspective, running out with Gemma (in his perspective, Ms Casey) is equivalent to ruining his little swath of life he has made for himself.  I can see why he would make the choice he did.  

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But Mark S. and Helly had that discussion before he finished Cold Harbor.  That yeah they want to be together however Helly is Helena at the end of the day.

Once Lumon got CH finished, they no longer need the innies.  They can turn off the switch to turn on the innies or fire them.

Mark Scout, in revenge for Mark S. not taking Gemma out of the building, could just refuse to go back to Lumon again.

The Innies can't stay in there indefinitely.  Are they going to live on vending machine food, waffles and pineapples?  Are they going to be entertained by cheesy comedy acts with animatronic Keir and Milchick?

It looked like Keir was going to use a racial slur against Milchick, dredge up all his doubts when they gave him those paintings.  But instead, he was acting like a true believer and he tried everything to get out of the bathroom and probably would have stopped Mark and allowed Lumon to execute their plans, which included an animal sacrifice -- what the hell is this, they have a revolutionary brain control tech but they need the blood of a goat which has certain behavioral characteristics?

We don't fully know Lumon's plans, whether CH test would have proven that they erased all of Gemma's emotions and memories, like having her work on the crib, which might normally trigger painful memories for her.  So once Gemma became this blank vessel, they would have downloaded some different persona like the old Eagan guy onto her brain?  Or maybe program it with the characteristics they wanted, so that she would have the Keir in her?

That final choice Mark S. made in the corridor,  Gemma on one end and Helly on the other, is kind of comical because they're running in circles, going nowhere, kind of like rats in a maze.

Lumon doesn't need Mark S. any more so they can turn him off.  Same presumably with Helly, who rebelled against Lumon.  So Eagan can have her innie turned off too.

That's why "See you at the Equator" was an ironic joke.  They wouldn't be allowed to go to the equator, unless they reintegrate and regained the full combined consciousness of the inner and outie.

[arc]

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:33 PM, gail56 said:

As for Gemma being Ms Casey, I thought that was for the purpose of exposing Mark and Gemma  to each other to see if they recognized each other on any level.

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Sure, but now we know they have a whole testing floor for that. Cold Harbor in particular was considered to be the ultimate test of severance blocking the outie’s trauma. Whatever Cobel was doing was therefore probably outside of the testing floor’s testing.

This also raises the question of logical coherence: does severance block everything? That’s been Lumon’s claim this whole time. That’s what they wanted to prove with Cold Harbor. So then why is Mark the ideal refiner for Gemma’s macrodata? As an innie, shouldn’t he be blocked from any personal connection with Gemma? 

Edited March 21 by arc

[KarenX]

  On 3/21/2025 at 5:11 PM, AstridM said:

?? I thought you were referencing Planet of the Apes, from 1968.

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It felt like 2001 to me, especially with the lighting, Milchick in a crouch, and all those band instruments. Very primal. I don’t really know Planet of the Apes that well, but if this Severance scene calls back to both movies, then well done to the scene crafters!

[Sarahsmile416]

  On 3/21/2025 at 6:51 PM, aghst said:

But Mark S. and Helly had that discussion before he finished Cold Harbor.  That yeah they want to be together however Helly is Helena at the end of the day.

Once Lumon got CH finished, they no longer need the innies.  They can turn off the switch to turn on the innies or fire them.

Mark Scout, in revenge for Mark S. not taking Gemma out of the building, could just refuse to go back to Lumon again.

The Innies can't stay in there indefinitely.  Are they going to live on vending machine food, waffles and pineapples?  Are they going to be entertained by cheesy comedy acts with animatronic Keir and Milchick?

It looked like Keir was going to use a racial slur against Milchick, dredge up all his doubts when they gave him those paintings.  But instead, he was acting like a true believer and he tried everything to get out of the bathroom and probably would have stopped Mark and allowed Lumon to execute their plans, which included an animal sacrifice -- what the hell is this, they have a revolutionary brain control tech but they need the blood of a goat which has certain behavioral characteristics?

We don't fully know Lumon's plans, whether CH test would have proven that they erased all of Gemma's emotions and memories, like having her work on the crib, which might normally trigger painful memories for her.  So once Gemma became this blank vessel, they would have downloaded some different persona like the old Eagan guy onto her brain?  Or maybe program it with the characteristics they wanted, so that she would have the Keir in her?

That final choice Mark S. made in the corridor,  Gemma on one end and Helly on the other, is kind of comical because they're running in circles, going nowhere, kind of like rats in a maze.

Lumon doesn't need Mark S. any more so they can turn him off.  Same presumably with Helly, who rebelled against Lumon.  So Eagan can have her innie turned off too.

That's why "See you at the Equator" was an ironic joke.  They wouldn't be allowed to go to the equator, unless they reintegrate and regained the full combined consciousness of the inner and outie.

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One can argue the intelligence, lack thereof of iMark's plan - but ultimately O Mark made the biggest error in judgment speaking to iMark as condescendingly as he did.  Not to mention, iMark arguably didn't make the plan just for Helly but also Irving and Dylan who would not have existed if he had done anything else.  Not knowing what will happen after this in terms of Lumen, etc, we can't really know ultimately what plan will end up being the right one.  

[arc]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:23 PM, Sarahsmile416 said:

Not to mention, iMark arguably didn't make the plan just for Helly but also Irving and Dylan who would not have existed if he had done anything else.

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Indeed, but the innies don’t get very much agency in this. They only reason they keep existing is because their outie keeps coming back to work, and even that’s not entirely the choice of the outie: Burt and then Dylan (temporarily) and Irving got involuntarily retired/fired.

I sympathize with innie Mark a little, but from the outside we the audience know Lumon is very evil. Irving was investigating Lumon and found them involved in multiple disappearances. Even what little innie Mark knows is how inhumanely Lumon treats MDR (including s1’s “break room”), and that this huge guy Drummond just attacked him with lethal intent. The choice to spend a few minutes more alive is a valid one, I will grudgingly concede, but I think it’s worse than allowing his outie to escape and maybe reintegrate: the chances for survival are worse overall.

(of course, extradiegetically we know Adam Scott is the main character of the show so they’re not going to kill him off, and the innie-outie thing is the core of the show so Mark S probably won’t go away permanently until the end of the show. But as far as in-show logic goes.)

[Ilovepie]

Wow! I am going to miss this weird show so much!

Things I liked:

1.Mark talking to himself with escalating frustration. Innie and Outie may be the same when they are "born", but the path diverges the longer the Innie lives. Not on the same page at all!

2. Mark's final choice and his and Helly's retro feeling run through the halls of Lumon. Innie Mark is never choosing Gemma over Helly. Especially after his conversation with himself.

3. The end of Drummond. What an asshole. I'm glad Lorne saved Mark and her goat. The yelling conversation between Nurse Sandra Bernhard and Mark - hilarious!

4. Dylan's letter to himself. It was oddly sweet in his own way. I'm glad he went and helped Helly hold of Milkshake. Speaking of....

5. Milchick's snarky back and forth with animatronic Kier, who is just as fucking creepy as Jame Eagan.

6. The conversation between the world's worst dad Jame and Helly: "You're so fucking weird." Indeed!

7. I laughed out loud when Milchick delivered Dylan's letter and literally ran off. Hilarious!

Things I didn't like:

1. The marching band just felt like an excuse to have Milchick dancing again. Meh.

2. The reveal of what the goats are for. Kind of feels like a letdown. Why do you need an entire office converted to an indoor field with all of those strange people just for one sacrificial lamb goat????

3. Where the hell is Ricken????? That plot just went nowhere. Also, does Devon ever take care of her newborn?

4. No Irving. I was hoping he was coming back to help our MDR crew, but no such luck. I hope we have some answers about him next season and this isn't the end of his story.

Last question: When Mark was finishing Cold Harbor and Helly leaned in and said "I'm herrrrrr" - does that mean she has been Helena the whole time? I'm so confused about that!

 

[seank941]

The lack of non-severed workers is getting ridiculous. It was fine in season 1 when there were only around 10 severed employees, but as the scope of the floor expands, so should the outie workers. There don't have to be more security personel (although they need it), but we need to see more mid-level people. Where do they get the goat feed, instruments, uniforms, etc. 

If Mark was building Gemma's personalities, what do the other refiners do?

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

1.Mark talking to himself with escalating frustration. Innie and Outie may be the same when they are "born", but the path diverges the longer the Innie lives. Not on the same page at all!

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I thought this conversation was completely on brand for Mark. Outie Mark acts the same way when other people are telling him what to do. He stormed out of his own house during his reintegration treatments. 

 

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

6. The conversation between the world's worst dad Jame and Helly: "You're so fucking weird." Indeed!

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I wonder if this will cause Helena to try reintegration? Whether she wants her father's approval or is afraid of being permanently replaced, this would be a semi-believable motive.

 

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

3. Where the hell is Ricken????? That plot just went nowhere. Also, does Devon ever take care of her newborn?

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I'm assuming they just needed a way to introduce the birthing cabins, so they gave her a baby. Also, did anybody catch her reaction to Mark's promise of reintegration? She is not pro innie Mark at all. 

 

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

Last question: When Mark was finishing Cold Harbor and Helly leaned in and said "I'm herrrrrr" - does that mean she has been Helena the whole time? I'm so confused about that!

 

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I think Helena left the Severed floor after Irv tried to kill her. It would definitely help the story move if it was Helena down there.

[SoMuchTV]

Oh, wow, I didn’t realize until I listened to the show podcast for this episode - the actor who plays Mr. Drummond was also on Somebody Somewhere (as “Iceland”). Two very different characters!  He was a guest on the podcast. His name is Ólafur Darri Ólafsson. (I had to copy & paste that to get the spelling and characters right.)

[arc]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

Last question: When Mark was finishing Cold Harbor and Helly leaned in and said "I'm herrrrrr" - does that mean she has been Helena the whole time? I'm so confused about that!

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Britt Lower definitively said that was Helly R in that segment. I think Helly was just expressing that her outie is an Eagan, echoing Cobel's admonition that there would be no honeymoon ending* for Mark ("She's an Eagan. You're nothing to them."). That while reintegration ("this combining thing") could maybe save innie Mark in some way, it might not work for Helly because her outie (as far as she knows, at this point) despises her and wouldn't choose reintegration at all.

* what a strange phrase. The honeymoon ends the wedding, but should also be considered part of the beginning of the marriage.

[KarenX]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

Last question: When Mark was finishing Cold Harbor and Helly leaned in and said "I'm herrrrrr" - does that mean she has been Helena the whole time? I'm so confused about that!

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I think she was trying to be objective and fair and self-sacrificing and heroic for Mark, nudging him to go have a full outside life. She meant, even if we are both outside and know it you don’t want to be with me there because on the outside I am herrrrr. 

That’s how I understood it.

[arc]

Yeah, if the Marks' conversation had been less strained, outie Mark could have brought up that Helena Eagan stalked him to a Chinese restaurant a few days ago. But in this situation, innie Mark would not have been in the mood to listen.

That moment of "you don't even take an interest in my life" felt very on the nose, as far as Dan Erickson saying the MDR innies would be more like adolescents this season. Innie Mark absolutely felt like a petulant teen in that moment. I didn't think it was particularly fair given that severance and Lumon's extreme secrecy protocols would have meant outie Mark would normally have no way of knowing his innie had a romantic relationship. It's not exactly like a typical parent not knowing what their kid is up to.

[aghst]

I don't get some of the reactions casting Mark Scout as a villain.  He's exasperated and is now close to getting Gemma back and his Innie is saying he wants to keep doing what he's been doing, run around the floors of Lumon and hook up with Helly and Helena.

If his Innie is refusing to help, Outie can just quit and Innie is gone.

He didn't make that threat but what would be his motivation to keep going to work at Lumon after CH is done and Gemma is either rescued or gone?

The Innies can't have lives other than to hang out inside Lumon and have pineapple bobbing contests.

Nobody has raised the possibility of an alternate outcome for the Innies except for reintegration.

So the Outies have the power in the relationship, most of the time, except Mark needing his Innie to get Gemma and guide her out of the depths of Lumon.

 

 

[ombre]

In retrospect, the episode with the camping trip was important because it showed that innies *could* have life experiences outside the cubicle jungle. But they'd need Lumon tech to make that happen. So they need Lumon to exist and they need their outies to be on board and... Well. They need a lot. They are hugely dependent on the people and system around them. And they are terrified of that and really resent it. Pretty much like a lot of teens. 

 

One thing I keep thinking back to, having recently rewatched some of the very first episodes, is how Petey described reintegration. He talks about the two timelines melding, but in such a way that early experiences for each were kinda equally far away. The innie's time-line was stretched to cover the same amount of time as the outie's much, *much* longer life. I don't know if they've moved away from that idea or what, but mark scout doesn't mention anything similar when Mark s is being worried that he'd just get lost. 

[maddie965]

I just want iMark to leave with Gemma, so oMark and Gemma can be happy forever. Is that too much to ask?

I live for that moment when Gemma first recognized Mark. The happiness in her face was everything. At least I have that moment. *sighs*

[Starchild]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

No Irving. I was hoping he was coming back to help our MDR crew, but no such luck. I hope we have some answers about him next season and this isn't the end of his story.

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I don't think it's the end of Irv's story, based on Cobel's reaction when Mark mentioned his paintings of the black hallway. (Whaaattt?)

I have to say, I was disappointed by innie Mark's decision to stay on the severed floor with Helly. What does he think is going to happen? The rebels can't take over the whole building because they only exist on that floor. Even if there were a way to not run out of food, presumably Lumon can eventually set up a Glasgow block or something.

And I didn't like Helly's smug look back at Gemma when Mark chose to stay. She's still a dick.

[arc]

Per a video from TV Insidervideo from TV Insider , Ben Stiller operated the Kier animatronic, but Marc Gellar, the likeness of Kier Eagan, provided the Kier voice.

[anniebird]

So Lumon has a full marching band but no security force at all?

[iMonrey]

  On 3/21/2025 at 11:59 PM, seank941 said:

If Mark was building Gemma's personalities, what do the other refiners do?

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

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See, I don't get this either. There were refiners before Mark even started there. I'm not convinced this was the original plan. It doesn't make a lot of sense if all they really needed was Mark because of his connection to Gemma. Are there other test subjects on the testing floor related to Irv, Helly and Dylan? What about Petey?

[KarenX]

I have rewatched the finale episode!

In the Gemma episode, Dr Mauer tells Gemma that Mark has remarried and has a child. I guess that + Mark having sex with Helly and Helena = foreshadowing = I guess that answers the Is she pregnant? question.

I’m doubling down on my 2001 impressions. I watched the ten minutes of monkeys at the start of 2001 again and the way they film the vending machine (monolith) and the way Helly is waving the white brass instruments around (bones as weapons) and the way Milchick leaps into a crouch and stares at everybody from an elevated position plus the lights (Dawn of Man)… there are so many parallels.

The Severance story is Milchick’s story to me. Red in this show has always accompanied self-realization. When he exited that bathroom and saw the band and Dylan united—how quickly they formed a connection when Dylan didn’t even have a whistle or baton—I think Milchick was as amazed and confused as he was afraid.

I am actually not even sure he is afraid. More like… in awe. He is also so lonely. Working at Lumon, basically living at Lumon, isn’t a full life either. It’s haha dawning on him that he is better than the life he has been living.

In Milchick’s case, severing his work and home life will save him.

Clip of “Dawn of Man” from 2001 on YouTube

Edited March 22 by KarenX
Edited to add link to video clip

[AstridM]

IDK, Adam Scott is over 50 and Brit Lower is almost 40, so I don’t know that I necessarily see a pregnancy storyline coming up. Could be, but who knows. 

[lavenderblue]

After my complaint last ep about how Dylan's story was handled, I was so gratified by its resolution and his acknowledgement that outie and innie are fundamentally connected. This was obviously intended to contrast starkly with Mark's situation (and I can imagine innie Dylan, who's a serious wife guy and thinks Miss Casey is hot, being baffled by innie Mark's decision), but I also wonder if it's a road map for the future innie/outie conflict.

Helly's seemed more Helena-like in the last couple of episodes, from her "Shouldn't that be Helly E?" moment to "I'm her" and the look at the end of the finale, along with Jame admitting that she has more Kier in her than Helena does. We also have Irv's bleed-through of innie memories, which was touched upon again when Cobel was told about his artwork. To me the only way things can actually be resolved -- if resolution is the show's goal -- is if it turns out that severance can't really hold forever; innies will increasingly resemble their outies the longer they're able to mature, and outies can't be shielded forever from innie memories. Natural reintegration, basically, which would fit with the show's psychological and emotional themes about needing to experience life in its fullness, along with not neglecting or abusing certain aspects of one's self or life. 

Also, while innie Mark's choice was perfectly foreshadowed by the tense conversation between innie and outie, and flows with his rebellious teenage characterization, I really was furious at him. Gemma's so upset! At the very least be more decorous in letting her down for your girlfriend! Plus, as mentioned, while walking out may mean innie suicide, staying inside means an even better risk (as far as he knows) of actual physical death, which would certainly impair outie Mark's opportunity to walk into a birthing cabin or something again for the innie's sake.

 

[gail56]

Thinking more on the finale, Helly said they would take the chip out of Gemma when she passed the Cold Harbor test. Would taking out the chip kill her,  or they would take the chip out of her head and then kill her?  What was the plan for the chip afterward?

Then the guy who was doing the testing on her yelled when he was chasing them down the hall that getting Gemma out would "Kill them all". Who are they?

I have to wait, darn it!

[lavenderblue]

  On 3/22/2025 at 9:56 PM, gail56 said:

Then the guy who was doing the testing on her yelled when he was chasing them down the hall that getting Gemma out would "Kill them all". Who are they?

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I thought by "them" he meant Gemma's various innies, given his obsession with her, but it was left ambiguous.

[Snewtsie]

  On 3/22/2025 at 9:56 PM, gail56 said:

Thinking more on the finale, Helly said they would take the chip out of Gemma when she passed the Cold Harbor test. Would taking out the chip kill her,  or they would take the chip out of her head and then kill her?  What was the plan for the chip afterward?

 

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Either way, Gemma was going to die.  I'm guessing they'd kill her and then remove the chip.

I might be in a minority but I wasn't thrilled with the finale.  Regardless, I really loved Emile and hope to see more of him next season. 

[JKL845]

I disagree that Mark and Gemma's marriage was ending. He was so distraught by her "death" that he had to sever in order to function. The whole reason they "killed" Gemma was to get Mark to sever. Even two years later his outie life is a mess without Gemma. When they finally reunited they were completely enamored with each other. 

Innie Mark and Helly are in their infancy. They don't even know themselves at this point. Their entire lives are extremely limited to their jobs and they don't even know what their job is. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

So macro data refining is basically magic? Other people pulling numbers based on vibes somehow has an effect on Gemma? I know the show isn't exactly hard science fiction but this broke my suspension of disbelief into a million pieces.

The running joke that is the security at Lumon (or rather, the convenient lack thereof) also isn't helping me take the show seriously. Sure, it has lots of dark comedy but I don't think we are supposed to not be scared by Lumon at all but frankly at this point I don't think Lumon can steal candy from a baby, so the menace factor is completely gone.

I liked the communication between innie Mark and outie Mark (and to a briefer extent the Dylans) and we did get some answer but I don't know if I will back for the third season. Cinematography and acting can only do so much if you find the premise of a show ever more ridiculous.