S02.E06: Smallfolk

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I guess what's missing, in a way, are that plenty of people would support her as an idea because they hoped to manipulate and control her, whether she was seeking support or isolating herself or not. Her mere existance is a potential road to power for somebody, if not her.

In the abstract, maybe. 

But in the show, whatever the reasoning, Rhae seemingly spent as little time as feasible in King's Landing. Rhae let Otto as the Hand and Ali as the Queen take care of the day-to-day for years. Instead of being like "My dad could die any day, and when he does, a) I'm not going to have had any experience learning from him how to keep Westeros going b) I'm not going to have positioned myself well to keep all the great houses in line c) I've let the transparently ambitious Otto run things d) I know that Aegon is going to assert a claim as the first surviving male heir and that could pose a problem...I'd better get prepared for that day," she just assumed that everything would work out for the best. 

Many of the people who might have been yes-men got purged by the Greens immediately after Viserys died. Most of the rest saw which side was more likely to profit them (or at least, not hang them) and defected. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Many of the people who might have been yes-men got purged by the Greens immediately after Viserys died. Most of the rest saw which side was more likely to profit them (or at least, not hang them) and defected. 

Most of the people whose opinion matters, i.e. powerful heads of noble houses don't live in the capital. Rhaenyra could (and should!) have tried to get them on her side even during her not so splendid isolation - as she is doing right now without leaving Dragonstone.

Then again, the Greens didn't have their ducks in order either and are only now getting Houses firmly on their side, so I am more inclined to think this is one of those Hollywood things where nothing important happens during a time-skip rather than a deliberate attempt to portray any faction leader as laughably inept.

[Lady S.]

19 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not surprised that the small folk are having enough of the Green's bullshit, because Aemond really is making it easy for them.  Have to say that Aegon really was on point about trying to at least pretend to care about their lives.  

None of this would have happened under the rule of Good King Aegon the Magnanimous. (Not entirely a joke, as his overkill with the ratcactchers was followed by buying drinks for a full tavern to win popularity. Really doubt he would have locked discontented subjects inside his city and then refused to care about their hunger.)

Updated character guide.

[magdalene]

6 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

None of this would have happened under the rule of Good King Aegon the Magnanimous. (Not entirely a joke, as his overkill with the ratcactchers was followed by buying drinks for a full tavern to win popularity. Really doubt he would have locked discontented subjects inside his city and then refused to care about their hunger.)

Updated character guide.

Aegon is not a good guy and he was hapless and frivolous as a king but his first instinct as king was to be generous, he didn't start out inclined to commit atrocities.  When he started committing atrocities - hanging all the rat catchers - he didn't just willy-nilly and la-di-da do that - having your child brutally murdered isn't doing much for anyone's benevolence I would guess.

In comparison Aemond comes across as a malevolent anime villain.

[Chicago Redshirt]

54 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Most of the people whose opinion matters, i.e. powerful heads of noble houses don't live in the capital. Rhaenyra could (and should!) have tried to get them on her side even during her not so splendid isolation - as she is doing right now without leaving Dragonstone.

Then again, the Greens didn't have their ducks in order either and are only now getting Houses firmly on their side, so I am more inclined to think this is one of those Hollywood things where nothing important happens during a time-skip rather than a deliberate attempt to portray any faction leader as laughably inept.

The Greens seemingly had the ducks in a row enough in the ways that matters. That's why Rhae has few with a landed military force to speak of on their side who can be used to take back King's Landing (other than the Starks and the Arryns). That's why Aegon has been officially crowned in the eyes of church and state. Since they were the ones committing treason, they had a reason to step lightly. Rhae doesn't have a good excuse for not better forging alliances to cement her claim, and what she's doing now is a decade late and a number of golden dragons short.

[Lady S.]

On 7/21/2024 at 10:09 PM, peridot said:

It's something else that the only nice kid of Alicent is the one that grew up away from her. 

It's interesting that only one of Corlys' sons has white hair.  I thought both would have it. 

Well, the only nice son. Helaena seems to have somehow survived her mother's failures with her soul intact, making her a better person than all of her immediate family. (I meant to say after 2.03 that I think Helaena's "I forgive you" was about more than just mummy banging the kingsguard who failed to protect Jaehaerys. I wonder if that as well as Aegon's condition now after her cold dismissal of him is what prompted her to finally take stock of the fruits of her mothering.) 

I'd say that makes the Velaryon bastards more realistic than Alicent's kids or Rhaenyra's Strong bastards where every one inherited their father's hair color. (And I have noticed black extras in King's Landing and elsewhere, so I think the Velaryons are not alone in their skintone so much as perhaps singular among the nobility. Addam's hair would suggest his lowborn mother is also black.)

On 7/22/2024 at 12:10 AM, scarynikki12 said:

Did Otto send Daeron away the second he was born? How does Alicent know nothing about him? Her mothering gets worse every episode.

I love how the Tully family are named after Sesame Street. I’d like to meet Snuffy Tully. 

Otto wouldn't have been Hand when Daeron was born. He was fired by Viserys in 1.04 back when only Aegon and Helaena had been born. I speculated back when we first heard of Daeron that his fostering was a way for Alicent to keep her husband and her dad still tied when Otto was on the outs at court. We don't know how young he was when he was sent to Oldtown but he's been away for 7 years at least (with maybe sporadic family visits which probably dried up more after Otto returned as Hand and then Alicent became more and more busy ruling as Viserys became bedbound) and has apparently stopped writing to his absent mother, so that qualifies her as no longer knowing her youngest. She knew him best as a baby and little kid but his teen self would be a stranger.

Glad someone else noticed GRRM's naming pattern there.

On 7/22/2024 at 6:54 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

3. He is contemplating an alliance with the Greyjoys by marrying off his own mother to them, which a) would be terrible for his mother but more importantly b) seems like it is not going to be a good strategic move since their words are "We do not sow" and they are presumably at this time a group of traitorous bastards who do what they want just like in GOT.

Far be it for me to defend Aemond, but I believe he was suggesting the Triarchy as an alternative to the Greyjoys who refuse to answer their messages. It was Alicent who asked after the possibility of young Lord Greyjoy and that council lord she hates most suggested she marry this kraken to seal the deal. Aemond is firing mummy but I don't think he'd marry her off to a fucking Greyjoy of all people. He seems to think the Triarchy can be a temporary team-up with no long-term repercussions.

However, I don't see how he can force Daemon onto a war on two fronts when the western army is still dragging ass hundreds of miles away. Even if Lord Lannister actually accepted Aemond's refusal of his summons and started moving, Criston would still be closer to Harrenhal, so what's the hurry? Seems more like Aemond was just trying to get rid of Criston after he disagreed with him. When Criston and Gwayne left I saw bandaged men mobilizing in the background, so their army of  ~500 men (at best) contains men still recovering from dragonburns. Daemon could finish them all off on Caraxes before Aemond even joins them on Vhagar, much less before the Lannister army ever enters the riverlands. And "if he dares face me"? Please, Aemond, your uncle has a lot of problems but fearing to face you isn't one of them. Daemon would probably love getting to fight an enemy outside his own head.

As for Alicent/Aemond, I agree that she failed him wrt Aegon, but I don't think that has much to do with his attitude as he's never blamed her for that. In s1, he treated her as another sister to protect (or as if he were her surrogate husband as those two lines do blur with Targs). Not only did he comfort her (and he and Aegon both covered for her about the "lie" of their nephews' bastardy) after she lost her shit at Driftmark, but when he demanded Luke's eye at Storm's End he said he'd make a gift of it to his mother. Her blaming him for killing Luke must have felt like a betrayal of his loyalty and her own former anger. Now he's putting her in her place for trying to make herself regent instead of him and failing to read the room to the point she kept arguing against him long after it should have been clear no one was listening to her.

 

Edited July 24 by Lady S.

[The Hound Lives]

21 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

I think in general the writers view Rhaenyra as their heroine, and give her the benefit of the doubt on everything. 

And I find this so irritating. The throne is hers, no doubt, but I find her uninteresting and uninspired. She’s a bore. Emma is fantastic, fab with the tears, but the Blacks are a snooze fest. 

Edited July 23 by The Hound Lives

[CeeBeeGee]

On 7/22/2024 at 12:38 AM, AntFTW said:

Why do the Lannisters have lions? Why were they bringing these lion on the march to the Riverlands? What exactly were they going to do with them?

I felt so bad for those poor beasts. If you're going to cage them, make it a huge cage, something mimicking their natural environment. It's terribly cruel to put them in a box like that.

 

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It makes sense if Otto's plan was to hide from everyone that Alicent has born a third son in order to keep him in sererve if anything happens to Aegon and Aemond. 

Interesting thought but if Daeron doesn't grow up in court and is "hidden" how could he claim to be the son of Viserys? It's not like they have fingerprinting or DNA records in Westeros.

 

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

And he is arrongant, too self-confident and ruled by his hate. It's unwise for a ruler not to listen to advice but believe that he can make good decisions all alone, not to speak of dividing your own supporters and making a new enemy who can strike on your back. 

WTH did he fire Alicent? Someone as intelligent as he clearly thinks he is never would've discarded someone so experienced. Unforced error.

 

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Aemond at next council meeting....

Oh my God, that scene was so terrifying. I literally can't rewatch it.

 

14 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The dragon seed thing does make me wonder if the Baratheons from the Game of Thrones could've ridden dragons if they were available. 

I believe Robert's (and Stannis's and Renly's) grandmother was a Targaryen, and that historically the Baratheons and Targaryens often married each other. (Ironically, in light of Robert's hatred of all things Targ.)

Edited July 23 by CeeBeeGee

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Interesting thought but if Daeron doesn't grow up in court and is "hidden" how could he claim to be the son of Viserys? It's not like they have fingerprinting or DNA records in Westeros.

In old stories the son had some kind of sign (f.ex. a sword). But Daeron's case there is no problem as Alicent and Otto can prove his identity. 

I don't think it's not only growing up in the court and away from Alicent's failed mothering that has made Daeron kind. Alicent's basic character is kind and it was her kindness that attracted Viserys.   

On the other hand, it's not bullying that has shaped Aemon. He is much like Daemon, and of course both are second sons who thought themselves more worthy than their older brothers.   

[Is Everyone Gone]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's not only growing up in the court and away from Alicent's failed mothering that has made Daeron kind. Alicent's basic character is kind and it was her kindness that attracted Viserys.   

Eh I don't think Alicent's basic character is kind. I think she's pious and responsible and does have a conscience. But a kind person wouldn't make Rhaenyra walk to meet her with the baby RIGHT AFTER BIRTH so Alicent could prove some point about the baby being a bastard.

A kind person wouldn't have tolerated the endless bullying that went on between her sons and between her sons and Rhaenyra's sons. 

Alicent reminds me of those pious church ladies who can also be bigoted and petty.

[paigow]

The show runners were constrained to give Corlys sexy bastard sons because in the future, sexy bastards like Gendry & Jon Snow were around...

[aghst]

9 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I hate seeing that dog...because this is Westeros. I can't be having MORE bad things happen to this dog, but I'm very concerned that's what's coming. Don't you FUCKING dare show that dog, a hungry Hugh Hammer and then have him wiping his mouth, god dammit. 

That was I was thinking too until Raynera's care package boats came ashore.

[paigow]

Maybe the dog develops a taste for raw fish and eats everything thrown at Alicent

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

As for Alicent/Aemond, I agree that she failed him wrt Aegon, but I don't think that has much to do with his attitude as he's never blamed her for that. in s1, he treated her as another sister to protect (or as if he were her surrogate husband as two lines do blur with Targs). Not only did he comfort her (and he and Aegon both covered for her about the 'lie" of their nephew's bastardy) after she lost her shit at Driftmark, but when he demanded Luke's eye at Storm's End he said he'd make a gift of it to his mother. Her blaming him for killing Luke must have felt like a betrayal of his loyalty and her own former anger. Now he's putting her in her place for trying to make herself regent instead of him and failing to read the room to the point she kept arguing against him long after it should have been clear no one was listening to her.

You make a good point: Aemond has never accused Alicent for not protecting him from Aegon's bullying (and he wasn't present when Alicent said to Aegon that the can do it at home, not in the presence of others). Instead, it was only Alicent who after Aemon lost his eye demanded punishment for Luke - which is perhaps why he in his part defended her and not revealed she was the source of "rumors". In addition, Aemond and Aegon clearly understood that it was in their own interests to shield their mother.

It's also true that Alison made a mistake in the council by not showing outward respect towards Aemon, however wrong and arogant he might be. No new ruler likes to reminded by his inexperience. And she can no longer treat him primarily as her son in private, who she can reprimind, either. Their roles have changed and thus also the power balance. 

Yet, Alicent is one of a few persons Aemond can trust, except of course when it's about Aegon. Which maybe is the crux of the matter for him.  

[marleyfan]

When they showed Alicent and Helaena leave, where was Helaena's daughter?  Is there any reason she would have been left behind at King's Landing?  

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, the only nice son. Helaena seems to have somehow survived her mother's failures with her soul intact, making her a better person than all of her immediate family. (I meant to say after 2.03 that I think Helaena's "I forgive you" was about more than just mummy banging the kingsguard who failed to protect Jaehaerys. I wonder if that as well as Aegon's condition now after her cold dismissal of him is what prompted her to finally take stock of the fruits of her mothering.) 

Helena was raised with love, likely cuz Alicent sees herself in Helena, which makes her piss-poor parenting of the two boys even more inexcusable. 

A lot of people compare her to Cersei, and I tend to see the comparisons.  It's a similar dynamic with a few key differences; she spoiled the first kid, but unlike Cersei, she realized her first kid was a monster, so she pretty much avoided him until such time as she needed him.  She ignored the spare, but unlike Tommen, Aemond absolutely needed a mother figure to help him, especially against the bullying.  Aemond has constantly tried to prove himself, but he's been largely ignored since he's a spare.  This is likely why he wants to fight Damon; he needs to prove that he's the baddest in the land, and as long as Damon's alive, he isn't.

I think Daron might've been the same regardless of how he was raised. He had a dragon early in life, so he wouldn't have been bullied.

Quote

As for Alicent/Aemond, I agree that she failed him wrt Aegon, but I don't think that has much to do with his attitude as he's never blamed her for that. in s1, he treated her as another sister to protect (or as if he were her surrogate husband as two lines do blur with Targs). Not only did he comfort her (and he and Aegon both covered for her about the 'lie" of their nephew's bastardy) after she lost her shit at Driftmark, but when he demanded Luke's eye at Storm's End he said he'd make a gift of it to his mother. Her blaming him for killing Luke must have felt like a betrayal of his loyalty and her own former anger. Now he's putting her in her place for trying to make herself regent instead of him and failing to read the room to the point she kept arguing against him long after it should have been clear no one was listening to her.

I think his feelings towards his mother were always complicated. After Luke, the fact that she looked at him with disgust all the time likely brought his negative feelings to the surface, and he got rid of her at the first opportunity. If she had put in the time, he would've been a helluva weapon for her.

[baldryanr]

10 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Far be it for me to defend Aemond, but I believe he was suggesting the Triarchy as an alternative to the Greyjoys who refuse to answer their messages. It was Alicent who asked after the possibility of young Lord Greyjoy and that council lord she hates most suggested she marry this kraken to seal the deal. Aemond is firing mummy but I don't think he'd marry her off to a fucking Greyjoy of all people. He seems to think the Triarchy can be a temporary team-up with no long-term repercussions.

Yeah, and he has a point about the timing.  They said the Lannister and Hightower fleets will take "months" to arrive, and unless the Greyjoy fleet has engines or is hanging out on the east coast of Westeros, they'd also need a long time to get there.  The Greens can't afford to wait that long, as the riot at the end of the episode proved.

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

This should have deterred many a potential yes-man but not all of them. I am more than willing to criticize Rhaenyra for her splendid isolation, so to speak, (even if no one in show seems to regard it as the big mistake it most certainly was) but she should have had at least some tiny faction all along. Oaths are a serious business in Westeros and some hangers-on offer their services to the weaker side precisely because it's smaller and thus offers more promotion opportunities in case of success

She had her few loyal lords on her counsel.  They just don't kiss her ass when they think she's wrong.

[pasdetrois]

On 7/21/2024 at 10:56 PM, magdalene said:

Freddie Fox is giving a fine performance in his small role. Not a surprise him being from that particular family. He was very good in The Great too.

And as a villain in the fantastic series Slough House.

It's a bit distracting that Alicent still looks like she's in her 20s, even after birthing all those babies.

Edited July 23 by pasdetrois

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Most of the people whose opinion matters, i.e. powerful heads of noble houses don't live in the capital. Rhaenyra could (and should!) have tried to get them on her side even during her not so splendid isolation - as she is doing right now without leaving Dragonstone.

Then again, the Greens didn't have their ducks in order either and are only now getting Houses firmly on their side, so I am more inclined to think this is one of those Hollywood things where nothing important happens during a time-skip rather than a deliberate attempt to portray any faction leader as laughably inept.

Rhaenyra didn't think she need to reach out to anyone because she foolishly believed everyone would honor their oaths/their fathers' oaths to Viserys.  It's a weakness in her character and perfectly in line with how entitled she has been since she was a teenager.

As for the Greens, they were planning a coup, so everything had to be done surreptitiously, which limited them in getting support lined up ahead of time.

15 hours ago, Lady S. said:

None of this would have happened under the rule of Good King Aegon the Magnanimous. (Not entirely a joke, as his overkill with the ratcactchers was followed by buying drinks for a full tavern to win popularity. Really doubt he would have locked discontented subjects inside his city and then refused to care about their hunger.)

Updated character guide.

Oh, he would have because he would've become bored by them well before this point.

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

However, I don't see how he can force Daemon onto a war on two fronts when the western army is still dragging ass hundreds of miles away. Even if Lord Lannister actually accepted Aemond's refusal of his summons and started moving, Criston would still be closer to Harrenhal, so what's the hurry? Seems more like Aemond was just trying to get rid of Criston after he disagreed with him. When Criston and Gwayne left I saw bandaged men mobilizing in the background, so their army of a ~500 (at best) contains men still recovering from dragonburns. Daemon could finish them all off on Caraxes before Aemond even joins them on Vhagar, much less before the Lannister army ever enters the riverlands. And "if he dares face me"? Please, Aemond, your uncle has a lot of problems but fearing to face you isn't one of them. Daemon would probably love getting to fight an enemy outside his own head.

See, I think Aemond is right that waiting around for Daemon to build an army is a mistake.  Honestly I think they've delayed too long as it is.  Now that old lord Tully is dead, the major obstacle for Daemon is out of the way.  They probably should've attacked Harrenhal when Aegon wanted (you have no idea how much it pains me to say that) because there's no way Daemon could've held them off at that point.

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

As for Alicent/Aemond, I agree that she failed him wrt Aegon, but I don't think that has much to do with his attitude as he's never blamed her for that. in s1, he treated her as another sister to protect (or as if he were her surrogate husband as two lines do blur with Targs). Not only did he comfort her (and he and Aegon both covered for her about the 'lie" of their nephew's bastardy) after she lost her shit at Driftmark, but when he demanded Luke's eye at Storm's End he said he'd make a gift of it to his mother. Her blaming him for killing Luke must have felt like a betrayal of his loyalty and her own former anger. Now he's putting her in her place for trying to make herself regent instead of him and failing to read the room to the point she kept arguing against him long after it should have been clear no one was listening to her.

It's all part of what makes him so damaged, though.  He doesn't appear to have blamed her for failing to protect him but she is at fault.  He might not have been so fucked up to begin with if she had actually done her job as a mother when he was young.

10 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

WTH did he fire Alicent? Someone as intelligent as he clearly thinks he is never would've discarded someone so experienced. Unforced error.

 

Because he doesn't want her there disagreeing with him, regardless of her experience.  And possibly because he wants to keep his mummy and his job separate.

Here is what the actor says about that scene, in an interview with Vanity Fair:

"He kind of had to harden himself into this weapon and manufacture himself into something lethal so he’s never seen as weak again. It’s a little bit like Michael Mann’s Heat. There’s a quote in it that Robert De Niro says: “Never get attached to someone you’re not prepared to walk out on in 30 seconds flat when you feel the heat around the corner.” That’s the code that his character lives by.

Aemond has a similar kind of code that helps him. That’s why he’s so easily able to walk out on the madam: Love is weakness in his world. Alicent challenges that code—she is, in fact, his kryptonite. With the people that you love most and the ones you want the most, you often have to push them out of the way to get what you want. It’s similar to the kid in the playground who bullies his crush. He just doesn’t want his mum at work. He wants to do the job at hand, and his mum can’t get in his way."

[paigow]

Team Black has created an environment conducive to creating the Sparrow movement / cult

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

But a kind person wouldn't make Rhaenyra walk to meet her with the baby RIGHT AFTER BIRTH so Alicent could prove some point about the baby being a bastard.

A kind person wouldn't have tolerated the endless bullying that went on between her sons and between her sons and Rhaenyra's sons. 

Alicent didn't make Rhaenyra walk to meet her right after the birth.  That was Rhaenyra's choice.  Alicent did not summon her.  The maid was just supposed to collect the baby.  Still not something a nice person would do, but not quite as bad.

The bullying thing I agree with, however.

I think Alicent when she was younger was basically a kind person but life with Viserys stamped it out of her.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On the other hand, it's not bullying that has shaped Aemon. He is much like Daemon, and of course both are second sons who thought themselves more worthy than their older brothers.   

There are definitely elements of that, and maybe those would've overwhelmed any decency he might otherwise been capable of, but the bullying, and his parent's failure to protect him from it, absolutely DID have a hand in shaping Aemond's personality.  It wasn't the only factor but it was a significant one.

7 hours ago, marleyfan said:

When they showed Alicent and Helaena leave, where was Helaena's daughter?  Is there any reason she would have been left behind at King's Landing?  

Alicent and Helaena were leaving the Great Sept and returning to the Red Keep, which is where her daughter is.  They weren't leaving Kings Landing.

[proserpina65]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I think his feelings towards his mother were always complicated. After Luke, the fact that she looked at him with disgust all the time likely brought his negative feelings to the surface, and he got rid of her at the first opportunity. If she had put in the time, he would've been a helluva weapon for her.

I think Aemond's feelings about Alicent are extremely complicated.  He clearly loved her and we see some closeness between them up until Aegon's coronation.  But I agree it was the aftermath of Luke's death which shattered that closeness, and I really wish they'd show us a scene where Aemond returned from Storm's End and had to tell his mother what he'd done so that we'd have a better understanding of how that soured his feelings towards her.  Because clearly it was the turning point in their relationship.

I actually find it a bit sad that he so clearly wanted her to love him as a child even when she was failing to protect him from his brother and nephews.

50 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

It's a bit distracting that Alicent still looks like she's in her 20s, even after birthing all those babies.

Maybe she uses Cindy Crawford's miracle melon moisturizer?

[Is Everyone Gone]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Helena was raised with love, likely cuz Alicent sees herself in Helena, which makes her piss-poor parenting of the two boys even more inexcusable. 

A lot of people compare her to Cersei, and I tend to see the comparisons.  It's a similar dynamic with a few key differences; she spoiled the first kid, but unlike Cersei, she realized her first kid was a monster, so she pretty much avoided him until such time as she needed him.  She ignored the spare, but unlike Tommen, Aemond absolutely needed a mother figure to help him, especially against the bullying.  Aemond has constantly tried to prove himself, but he's been largely ignored since he's a spare.  This is likely why he wants to fight Damon; he needs to prove that he's the baddest in the land, and as long as Damon's alive, he isn't.

I think Cersei genuinely loved all her kids. It was a toxic, sociopathic kind of love because that's who Cersei is. But she was fiercely protective of all of them.

Alicent always thought of Aegon as her ticket to power. She doesn't like him, never did. Aemond was just the spare. She doesn't like him, never did. When they need her, when they're vulnerable, she's just annoyed. She does seem to love and like Heleana.

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

Alicent always thought of Aegon as her ticket to power. She doesn't like him, never did. Aemond was just the spare. She doesn't like him, never did. When they need her, when they're vulnerable, she's just annoyed. She does seem to love and like Heleana.

I think Alicent loves her sons as much as she's able, but that wasn't enough.  Clearly Aegon doesn't feel loved at all, by either parent, whereas Aemond seems to have felt she loved him at some point but now feels betrayed by her in the aftermath of what happened with Luke.  Which is why I really wished they'd shown Aemond's return from Storm's End.

[Uncle JUICE]

21 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I think Aemond's feelings about Alicent are extremely complicated. 

I think this is soft selling it :)...dude has a very specific taste in ladies of the night, wouldn't you say? Let's hope he doesn't get some of Alys Rivers's Zzquil, just ask Daemon, that shit will give you some WEIRD dreams along this axis!

Edited July 23 by Uncle JUICE

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think this is soft selling it :)...dude has a very specific taste in ladies of the night, wouldn't you say? Let's hope he doesn't get some of Alys Rivers's Zzquil, just ask Daemon, that shit will give you some WEIRD dreams along this axis!

I don't think it goes quite that far for Aemond, but he definitely has mommy issues.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 7/22/2024 at 12:58 AM, AntFTW said:

Me too!

These dragons aren’t quiet. They make all types of noises. They can’t move around or fly without making noise, and they’re conveniently and eerily silent when sneaking up on this guy.

On 7/22/2024 at 12:58 AM, AntFTW said:

On 7/21/2024 at 11:09 PM, peridot said:

Seasmoke is a spiteful troll, why else bend down to the Kingsguard like he was going to let him on?  Poor guy.  I jumped when he jumped in front of the younger son.

I think Seasmoke was testing Ser Darklyn. He might have accepted Darklyn if he had simply jumped on Seasmoke's back instead of crowing to everyone that he "tamed" the dragon.  I see that the dragons need to ride with their new riders to see if they are worthy.  Any hint of fear or hesitation, you get roasted!

[Is Everyone Gone]

The mom Alicent reminds me the most of is Elizabeth on The Americans. Elizabeth also loved her kids, but viewed them (Paige in particular) as a way to accomplish her goals. Elizabeth was also not very warm, and her sense of duty to Mother Russia overrode any maternal feelings.

Paige and Henry had their father though, who was a more caring, involved parent. Alicent's kids has ... Viserys.

[paigow]

On 7/22/2024 at 1:10 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I love how the Tully family are named after Sesame Street. I’d like to meet Snuffy Tully. 

Unfortunately, old Maester Hooper could not save Grover...

[iMonrey]

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

What was with those people who held spears (or prods or something) when Seasmoke was trying to decide whether to burn Ser Steffyn? You aren't going to scare a dragon away with a sharp stick, geniuses!

Something this time period has that wasn't available in Dany's time period are dragon trainers, and we've seen glimpses of them on this show. They train these dragons from infancy to obey certain commands. And yes, the ropes and pointy sticks would have been effective in training when they were little. It's like a big dog that's still afraid of being swatted with a newspaper, it's been ingrained in their training. I think that's why Seasmoke initially obeyed and put his (her?) head down but when poor Ser Darklyn got within sniffing distance Seasmoke was all "nuh-uh, not a Targ."

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

Eh I don't think Alicent's basic character is kind. I think she's pious and responsible and does have a conscience. But a kind person wouldn't make Rhaenyra walk to meet her with the baby RIGHT AFTER BIRTH so Alicent could prove some point about the baby being a bastard.

A kind person wouldn't have tolerated the endless bullying that went on between her sons and between her sons and Rhaenyra's sons. 

Alicent reminds me of those pious church ladies who can also be bigoted and petty.

 

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Alicent didn't make Rhaenyra walk to meet her right after the birth.  That was Rhaenyra's choice.  Alicent did not summon her.  The maid was just supposed to collect the baby.  Still not something a nice person would do, but not quite as bad.

The bullying thing I agree with, however.

I think Alicent when she was younger was basically a kind person but life with Viserys stamped it out of her.

That you, Proserpina65, you two last sentences said what I meant. The young Rhaenyra was kind, and had she led a "normal" life, she would still be.  

But are qualities as kindness invariable or do the happenings change a person, sometimes even to the opposite of her old self?

Yet, Alicent was genuinely horrified to learn of the Green Council's plans: you can't murder Rhaenyra, her father loved her! And even after all their discord Rhaenyra was still sure that Alicent didn't want war. 

Alicent' hypocricy is IMO due her basic kindness: she needs to justify her actions for herself, unlike Larys.    

     

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

Alicent always thought of Aegon as her ticket to power. She doesn't like him, never did. Aemond was just the spare. She doesn't like him, never did. When they need her, when they're vulnerable, she's just annoyed. She does seem to love and like Heleana.

 

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I think Alicent loves her sons as much as she's able, but that wasn't enough.  

Again, you write wisely, Proserpina65: a person can love only as much as she's able. I will continue: can a person love if she isn't loved?

Alicent lived in an arranged marriage where she had to tend her husband's needs and promote her father's interests. When Rhaenyra turned her back to her, she had nobody who loved her.

Some women can in such situation find compensation  by loving her children the more, although it's often demanding and possessive love.

Alicent couldn't. Yet, I don't think she has seen her sons as her ticket to power.  Power has been only the compensation for all she hadn't got.  

For years she had to hide her true feelings and thoughts, until the mask became her second nature. It has dropped only once: when she demanded Luke's eye for Aemon's eye.  

[Colorado David]

On 7/22/2024 at 9:04 AM, paigow said:

Aemond at next council meeting....

spot on paigow. aemond nutty as a fruitcake but still cunning in what he does, much like robert deniro.

[Lady S.]

On 7/22/2024 at 10:14 AM, jeansheridan said:

I think it has been established that Dany's bond was unusual. To have three dragons at her command was unprecedented. And being fireproof too. 

Right, she was the Mother of Dragons. Rhaegal and Viserion weren't just two random other dragons, all 3 were her children born at her side in Drogo's funeral pyre. I think that's a lot different than a dragon who hatched naturally and grew up for years as mere acquaintices at best to Rhaenyra and Daemon and co. 

On 7/22/2024 at 12:41 PM, AntFTW said:

I think you gave the answer. People aren't rational. People don't make sense 100% of the time. It happens in real life politics.

Do the smallfolk know that there ships out there in the middle of the Narrow Sea preventing goods from getting to King's Landing? If they know that, do they attribute that to the Blacks?

The question that's even more important is... what are the people in charge doing about it? What are people in the Red Keep doing to solve this problem? Why aren't they solving this problem? Why are we still starving while they get sheep to feed the dragons? Where are our sheep/chickens/goats that would feed us?

Right, I've seen people blame the top guy of their country in our world for everything wrong, real or imagined, as if say, the president could overrule everything done by the senate and courts and was also in charge of all state and local policies.

I don't get why people don't understand this plot when Mysaria spells out that they don't actually expect the smallfolk to overthrow the Greens, know Aemond will crack down and that will still cause problems because he can't actually destroy their own city, and then Larys says the people blame whoever's in charge. (And not only does Aemond have direct authority over them, one of his first acts was to lock them in so he is at fault for their inability to seek better lives elsewhere. Rhaenyra's controling sea supply but not stopping anyone from finding food outside the city.) Did the Lannisters really have that much more responsibility for their city's famine in s2 of GoT? They started the war and kept up their own feasts but Cersei/Joffrey didn't consciously and deliberately decide to starve their subjects for funsies anymore than Aemond did. The Tyrells fed the people post-Blackwater but before that they were Renly's and deprived the Lannister-held capital of their food supply accordingly. Meaning the Tyrells helped keep that famine going but the people only cared that Tyrell food ended their woes and that Queen Marg personally reached out to them.

On 7/22/2024 at 12:52 PM, proserpina65 said:

Except they're not actually feasting.  That's part of the misinformation campaign.  But I agree that the notion of it shouldn't be a surprise.

 

Yep, the Beesburys appear to have rebelled against their liege lords who support Aegon.  That could very well be interfering with any food shipments from there.  And the Reach is not exactly next door to Kings Landing.

I'm trying to imagine Aemond actually dancing and partying and just cannot. That was his ex-paidMummy Experience, Madam Sylvi, lying about him, btw. I think she's likely acting against him because he ignored her plea to keep smallfolk like her in mind more than his dismissal of her after Aegon walked in on them. He was probably just another client to her, one with immense royal power, while the White Worm could well be an old friend from Mysaria's own brothel days. The waitress reacting with such feigned shock to this was of course Dyanna, Aegon's former rape victim, who was visited by Rhaenyra's lady-in-waiting last ep. The only one not reciting scripted propaganda was Ulf, the guy who claims to be Viserys/Daemon's bastard brother with a pro-Mother of Bastards bias, a history perhaps explaining why he said Viserys never forgot "our smallfolk", which seems an odd phrasing for a member of the smallfolk. Also likely Dyana's heard Ulf's pro-Rhaenyra Targ bastard spiel and knew he'd be a ready audience for their very loud whisper campaign, one with a big mouth too.

I'm not sure that explains why they can't get any food by land but the Beesburys have good reason to rebel. Lord Beesbury was the guy murdered by Criston in the s1 finale. I'd call that another slip-up of Otto's to not realize his own countryman and fellow councilor would oppose his plans. If Lord Beesbury couldn't be won round they could've at least tried to keep him from the "Let's Usurp the Throne for Aegon" meeting. (This being the same meeting where he tried ordering Ser Harrold Westerling to go kill Rhaenyra and her sons despite him being her former bodyguard who had just pulled his sword on Criston for Beesbury's death. Hard to say there was a real missed opportunity to sneakily kill Rhaenyra and Daemon if even Otto's first plan was using the Kingsguard as assasins.)

 

On 7/22/2024 at 3:50 PM, MJ Frog said:

I felt really bad for Mysaria in that scene. Her body language made it seem that she was reluctant to accept the hug at first, and my read was that when things got all kissy she was on auto-pilot, settling into a role she knows well because that's what everyone seems to want from her. It just seemed really bad form to come on to her when had just finished telling a story about how she was used and abused for sex.

She was surprised by the hug but did return the embrace and then they both breathed heavily into each other's necks, with Mysaria either kissing Rhaenyra's neck or just moaning into it even after Rhaenyra lifted her head. The open mouth kissing did not come suddenly out of nowhere. Unless you mean the neck nuzzling and moaning was Mysaria on autopilot, in which case she was the one jumping to conclusions just from a hug and giving Rhaenyra the wrong idea. Mysaria wasn't telling her this tragic backstory because she mistook her boss for a therapist and needed emotional relief, she was trying to get closer to Rhaenyra after she brushed off the "You have me", prove her devotion by answering the question Rhaenyra asked in their first convo and basically saying "oh, you've taught me how to finally trust again". 

Edited July 24 by Lady S.

[Johnny Dollar]

Why can Corlys’ son ride a dragon? Are Velaryons dragon riders? Why couldn’t Corlys ride a dragon?

[Is Everyone Gone]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

That you, Proserpina65, you two last sentences said what I meant. The young Rhaenyra was kind, and had she led a "normal" life, she would still be.  

But are qualities as kindness invariable or do the happenings change a person, sometimes even to the opposite of her old self?

Yet, Alicent was genuinely horrified to learn of the Green Council's plans: you can't murder Rhaenyra, her father loved her! And even after all their discord Rhaenyra was still sure that Alicent didn't want war. 

Alicent' hypocricy is IMO due her basic kindness: she needs to justify her actions for herself, unlike Larys.    

     

Idk. I think there was a huge change with the time jump and the switch from Emily Carey to Olivia Cooke. Carey played Alicent as somewhat warm and kind. Cooke took the character in another direction and emphasized her bitterness, coldness and hypocrisy. Both are great actresses but when I see Alicent onscreen I don't see a particularly kind person.

[Stardancer Supreme]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Why can Corlys’ son ride a dragon? Are Velaryons dragon riders? Why couldn’t Corlys ride a dragon?

Velaryons and dragons hail from Old Valyria; there is no reason why anyone with Valyrian bloodlines shouldn't be able to bond with a dragon and ride it.  The Velaryons were the closest allies of the Targaryens for hundreds of years before they even invaded Westeros and there was likely a significant amount of intermarriage between the two houses to the point where the Velaryons and Targaryens were practically the same family blood-wise. The only reason they didn't have their own dragons prior to the dance was likely a political one. Remember, the Targaryens could very well have sent propaganda out that only they can ride dragons and no one else even bothered to try out the hypothesis to see if it is true.

As for Corlys himself, he may well have Targaryen in his bloodline even before he married Rhaenys. So any child that Corlys has will have the capability to bond with a dragon. Plus, Seasmoke used to be Laenor's dragon; he may be more partial to Velaryons than Targaryens.

[AntFTW]

40 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Why can Corlys’ son ride a dragon? Are Velaryons dragon riders? Why couldn’t Corlys ride a dragon?

I've always thought that those that are descendants of Old Valyria can ride dragons, which are the Targaryens and the Velaryons.

Edited July 23 by AntFTW

[Lady S.]

13 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

It's all part of what makes him so damaged, though.  He doesn't appear to have blamed her for failing to protect him but she is at fault.  He might not have been so fucked up to begin with if she had actually done her job as a mother when he was young.

Because he doesn't want her there disagreeing with him, regardless of her experience.  And possibly because he wants to keep his mummy and his job separate.

Here is what the actor says about that scene, in an interview with Vanity Fair:

"He kind of had to harden himself into this weapon and manufacture himself into something lethal so he’s never seen as weak again. It’s a little bit like Michael Mann’s Heat. There’s a quote in it that Robert De Niro says: “Never get attached to someone you’re not prepared to walk out on in 30 seconds flat when you feel the heat around the corner.” That’s the code that his character lives by.

Aemond has a similar kind of code that helps him. That’s why he’s so easily able to walk out on the madam: Love is weakness in his world. Alicent challenges that code—she is, in fact, his kryptonite. With the people that you love most and the ones you want the most, you often have to push them out of the way to get what you want. It’s similar to the kid in the playground who bullies his crush. He just doesn’t want his mum at work. He wants to do the job at hand, and his mum can’t get in his way."

Oh, yeah, the family bullying is absolutely his villain origin story, I may have misworded things there. I just think it's a bit of history revision/forgetfulness when people talk as if he wasn't Mummy's Special Little Guy in s1 until the whole neptocide incident, or suggest that she always disliked him as much as Aegon. Helaena is her #1 favorite just being a daughter and not a potential male heir, but l'il Aemond was the closest to a 2nd favorite kid/favorite son. (I also think it's clear that while her control of Aegon has always been limited, he's desperate for her approval, to the point that he did ask for her counsel in 2.04 after she chewed him out and it was just her dismissing him as good-for-nothing that was the breaking point. It also seems he did listen to her about standing with his brother against their bastard nephews, so IA that he would have listened if she'd just tried to get him to stop being mean to Aemond period before that.) I think Aemond still loves his mother and would've wanted her by his side if she'd only support his violence and not repress the side of herself shown at Driftmark, but if she's going to start acting like his mother just to scold him all the time then it's best for her to concentrate on "domestic pursuits".

Speaking of villain origin stories, I for one, enjoyed getting a backstory for Larys. Obviously he has his own agenda here to stay close to the king after Aemond insulted him, he'd probably dump Eggon Toast for a new patron if the right opportunity presented itself, but the feelings he's revealing to establish a sense of cripple solidarity are real enough. With that tear falling as he stammers a bit about people staring at him like a freak, that's the realest he's ever been. (I wonder what his relationship with Alys is like. We don't know whose bastard she is but the simplest answer is she's Lyonel's daughter and half-sister of Harwin and Larys. Now both the bastard and the cripple have weakened Targaryen "kings" asking them for help.)

Speaking of murderers, noticed the Rains of Castamere tune playing over the Lannister army ride, even though that mass murder is still a long way away. House Reyne of Castamere is still going strong at this point, with one of them being the blond lickspittle in Aegon's Kingsguard according to subtitles. Though it's unclear if those three stooges survived the riot they helped make worse. (I think the old guy who grabbed Alicent was actually calling her Your Grace or My Queen. So while grabbing a queen is dangerously stupid, he was just trying to help, and they could have all probably gotten out of there easier if the three stooges hadn't drawn swords and started chopping.)

I like how Alicent ended the riot scene with blood on her arm just like when she cut Rhaenyra with the Valryian knife.

Finally, the kind of Daemon vision I've been waiting for with the return of Viserys. It all goes back to him and Daemon never got over that first rejection. Interesting how the vision makes Viserys's pain clear by making him more sad than angry, ending with him removing the crown and crying. That sadness was Daemon's breaking point, sending him running from the imaginary throne room, totally flipping out, and trying to finally leave Harrenhal. Nothing Dreamnyra or GhostLaena could ever say would affect him like that. I think this is confirmation that he did say "the heir for a day", even if his mood in that brothel party was never as merry as Otto made out, to reveal this kind of regret over failing Viserys in his grief. For all you haunting haters, perhaps the 2nd Viserys vision will be the last with Daemon actually getting some sense of closure and relief, breaking into cathartic tears after smirking at Grover Tully's death. (I was half expecting dead Aemma to start talking during the brotherly embrace since it looks like they really brought the actress back to just lie there.)

Like how Ser Simon's response to Daemon's crazed allegations ended with him just shshing him like Daemon's a toddler throwing a tantrum or a nervous animal, which is not far off. And enjoyed how we all thought Alys just meant she'd get more of her "news" on the wind or cast some spell, but she actually just meant she needed 3 days to go to Riverrun and kill that old man. (Though I find it hard to believe she did it to help Daemon, prefer to think she's just doing all this for funsies.)

 

 

 

Edited July 24 by Lady S.

[KBrownie]

2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Velaryons and dragons hail from Old Valyria; there is no reason why anyone with Valyrian bloodlines shouldn't be able to bond with a dragon and ride it.  The Velaryons were the closest allies of the Targaryens for hundreds of years before they even invaded Westeros and there was likely a significant amount of intermarriage between the two houses to the point where the Velaryons and Targaryens were practically the same family blood-wise. The only reason they didn't have their own dragons prior to the dance was likely a political one. Remember, the Targaryens could very well have sent propaganda out that only they can ride dragons and no one else even bothered to try out the hypothesis to see if it is true.

As for Corlys himself, he may well have Targaryen in his bloodline even before he married Rhaenys. So any child that Corlys has will have the capability to bond with a dragon. Plus, Seasmoke used to be Laenor's dragon; he may be more partial to Velaryons than Targaryens.

One small correction/addition: The Targaryens were the only family whose dragons in addition to the actual humans escaped the Doom of old Valyria. Some of the other families survived, like the Velaryons, but the Targaryens were the only one with dragons.  
 

But yes, the Targaryens and the Velaryons are related.  The mother of the original conquerors, Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys, was a Velaryon.  One of their children/grandchildren married a Velaryon.  Not sure where Corlys descends from, but Addam, even though not the son of Rhaenys has some Targaryen blood from somewhere.  Laena and Laenor, though Velaryons, were Targaryen on both sides, though not as much as someone like Daemon or Rhaenyra. 

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Again, you write wisely, Proserpina65:

 

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Velaryons and dragons hail from Old Valyria; there is no reason why anyone with Valyrian bloodlines shouldn't be able to bond with a dragon and ride it.  The

I have always felt the ability to bond with a dragon was more about opportunity than blood. I think the whole blood ties is just Targaryen PR and hubris. Anyone with the guts to try might succeed. 

Dany's situation as always is exceptional.  She hatched them via blood magic. Rather negative blood magic too.

 

 

 

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I think Aemond still loves his mother and would've wanted her by his side if she'd only support his violence and not repress the side of herself shown at Driftmark, but if she's going to start acting like his mother just to scold him all the time then it's best for her to concentrate on "domestic pursuits".

You make a good point: it was unwise from Alicent to act as a *mother* towards a grown-up son who now has power. If she wants to influence on him, she should show him outwardly respect, not contradict him directly but find subtler ways.

Instead, when Aegon asked Alicent en route to his crowning "do you love me", Alicent's answer "you are a fool" did *not* mean she didn't love him, but that the place was wrong for mummy-son-conversation. 

[ferjy]

On 7/22/2024 at 11:11 AM, Oscirus said:

…and Allyn's gonna be all, I dunno, he just came to me and demanded that I be his rider 

🤣

 

On 7/22/2024 at 10:53 AM, jeansheridan said:

Seasmoke picking its rider was beautiful but I wanted to see him get on. I also wanted more time with him so we could appreciate the moment. 

Agree, it was all too short. And then we get umpteen minutes of Daemon wandering and scowling in the mist. 

 

[ferjy]

On 7/22/2024 at 10:53 AM, jeansheridan said:

Freddie Fox also brings a bemused wryness to the show. 

Freddie Fox is quite versatile. I’ve seen him in drama, thrillers and comedy. I had to chuckle at most of the actors having to don white wigs, while Freddie Fox, who is naturally light-haired, had to darken his colour, as a Hightower.

 

[Oscirus]

After doing way too much research on why Aemond doesn't just use Vhagar to dracarys the blockade, I learned that in order to do that, he'd have to go to the gullet, which is right by Dragonstone.  With that new knowledge gained, I'll pretty much say that using the Triarchy was Aemond's only play, especially since the Greyjoys aren't answering their calls, and offering up Alicent probably wouldn't get them to do that even if they went that route. 

Apparently, Aegon going down was a good thing for the Greens, as they can now get shit done.

[paigow]

13 hours ago, Lady S. said:

That sadness was Daemon's breaking point,

Alys is Sybok....

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

After doing way too much research on why Aemond doesn't just use Vhagar to dracarys the blockade, I learned that in order to do that, he'd have to go to the gullet, which is right by Dragonstone.  With that new knowledge gained, I'll pretty much say that using the Triarchy was Aemond's only play, especially since the Greyjoys aren't answering their calls, and offering up Alicent probably wouldn't get them to do that even if they went that route. 

Apparently, Aegon going down was a good thing for the Greens, as they can now get shit done.

It still seems to me that holding back from deploying Vhaegar might have made sense when they were actively trying to avoid dragon combat and when the fight might have been Vhaegar and Sunfyre versus the five dragons Team Black had at their disposal originally.

It probably still would have been fairly easy to through hit-and-run tactics to burn a few ships and then retreat before the Team Black dragons could outnumber them. Rinse and repeat until you have either shattered the blockade or shattered the will of the sailors to maintain it and it can be mopped up with relative ease.

But with Meleys down and Caraxes in the Riverlands, with Syrax being a dragon of last resort since it would involve putting Rhae herself at risk, it seems like now would be a pretty good time to take on the remaining Team Black dragons. Vermax and Moondancer would get got by Vhaegar fairly easily, methinks, whether alone or in tandem.