S04.E04: Wisdom of the Ages

[paulvdb]

Quote

Vought News Network is proud to announce its new series #Truthbomb! Join host Firecracker and her celebrity guests for the live 6-hour premiere as they expose Starlight’s Adrenochrome Parties!

Premiere date: June 20, 2024

Edited June 20 by paulvdb

[AnimeMania]

[baldryanr]

Carvel - the go to choice for cakes when you want to get revenge on your childhood tormentors. 

[Affogato]

Way to make HL relatable. 

Edited June 20 by Affogato

[Tachi Rocinante]

So the real quick memory flashes in the red "oven room" were supposed to be Homelander as a child? I did a quick freeze frame and it looks like a 20-something woman.  And the child in the black and white photo looked like a girl, too.

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

So the real quick memory flashes in the red "oven room" were supposed to be Homelander as a child? I did a quick freeze frame and it looks like a 20-something woman.  And the child in the black and white photo looked like a girl, too.

I put a video of Homelander as a child in media section if you want a clear look at him.

[AntFTW]

So in the end, Homelander put all the people in the "bad room", killed them all (literally ripped them all to shreds) except Barbara, and locked all of their body parts in the bad room with Barbara?

If I were Barbara, Homelander would have just had to come find me.

Also, the last scene with Hughie... Hughie's mom took the V from Hughie and gave it to Hughie's dad?

Edited June 20 by AntFTW

[Affogato]

I am liking this season. A lot of the things that shaped the people we met in the first three seasons is coming to light, and it makes a difference. It was always obvious Homelander was a sociopath, but this made it perfectly clear why he was a sociopath. It really does make him relatable, if you have ever been abused, because that kind of fantasy can get played on repeat. Alternatively, we are beginning to see how empathetic Butcher is, and how his violent behavior and his pushing people away was his way of protecting himself as a child. Starlight certainly has more in her background than we have seen, and all her mistakes have come back to haunt her.

I wonder if everything is real, too. I tend to believe Homelander actually did act out his fantasy of going home and showing them all what he thought of them. I’m not sure if Hughie’s mother is actually there, though, at least for all instances of ‘there’ . Did Hughie administer the V?  Or did his mother administer the V?  If she walks in how would she know the V was in his pocket and get it into the Dad before Hughie came back with the drinks?

I wonder why Vought would do this without having several backup plans to deal with homelander, because they had to know he was crazy, although that explains why they would be working hard to create Supe killing viruses. 

I’d feel for Deep’s doomed romance if he wasn’t cheating on his Cephalopod. That really is low. 

[arachne]

I don't understand what Firecracker's super-power is, especially after Starlight kicked her ass. And did Firecracker really call Sage "one of the good ones"? That's heavy-handed, even for me. 

It's a shame that Sage has to lobotomize herself whenever she wants to enjoy sex. Is the implication that "smarts" are not sexy? If so, I beg to differ! 😉

Seems a lot of this episode was about how the past will turn back to bite you. I couldn't help feeling a little sympathy toward Homelander, for all the monster that he is. Still -- O.M.G. I could barely look at what he put those two guys thru! And I'm glad we were spared the remainder of his "retribution." The remnants of that were horrible enough.  

 

[Ariah]

So… Butcher did take V a while ago. And he thinks he doesn’t have any powers… Head!Becca may be a manifestation of that power or a defense mechanism of sorts.

 

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, arachne said:

It's a shame that Sage has to lobotomize herself whenever she wants to enjoy sex. Is the implication that "smarts" are not sexy? If so, I beg to differ! 😉

Part of it is being a lot less picky about partners.  Smart Sage is too disgusted by the Deep to enjoy herself with him, and maybe that's true in general - she gets too caught up with how stupid she thinks her potential partners are.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Part of it is being a lot less picky about partners.  Smart Sage is too disgusted by the Deep to enjoy herself with him, and maybe that's true in general - she gets too caught up with how stupid she thinks her potential partners are.

Is she smart or is homelander just socially stunted? She may think she is smart, but she seems more psychopath to me. Manipulative. Thinks she is better than everyone, sincerely thinks so. Actually smarter? Maybe when whe stabs herdelf in the head she gets a burst for a short while. Her baseline may actually be fairly dumb. V is not your friend. 

Edited June 21 by Affogato

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Is she smart or is homelander just socially stunted? She may think she is smart, but she seems more psychopath to me. Manipulative. Thinks she is better than everyone, sincerely thinks so. Actually smarter? Maybe when whe stabs herdelf in the head she gets a burst for a short while. Her baseline may actually be fairly dumb. V is not your friend. 

Homelander being socially stunted is a given. I wonder if Sage was the smartest person alive, but each time she lobotomizes herself and her brain regenerates she loses a bit of intelligence. She might not realize it, but it would be very fascinating if she did, but she is so desperate to "turn off her brain" now and then that she has accepted it and masking the loss with manipulation and hubris. 

Honestly, if she's not playing some kind of long game that will end up with Homelander's destruction I do have a hard time buying her as the smartest person alive. Either way, though, she is pretty much a pscychopath as she doesn't care who dies in her quest for whatever her end game is. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Is she smart or is homelander just socially stunted? She may think she is smart, but she seems more psychopath to me. Manipulative. Thinks she is better than everyone, sincerely thinks so. Actually smarter? Maybe when whe stabs herdelf in the head she gets a burst for a short while. Her baseline may actually be fairly dumb. V is not your friend. 

I mean, there are very few regular/recurring characters on the show who are not overt psychopaths, closet psychopaths or similar. Starlight is about all I can come up with. Maybe Bobby Singer, but that may just be lack of exposure to him. 

That said, I think we need to take it on face value that Sage is indeed able to back up her claims of being smarter than anyone else alive. It makes sense to me that someone super-intelligent would feel lots of burdens from that, that at some point she tried to end things only to realize that she can't kill herself through brain injuries, but that it allows her to experience life as pleasant like "normies" do, and she has repeatedly done so as a coping mechanism.

On 6/20/2024 at 12:24 PM, AntFTW said:

So in the end, Homelander put all the people in the "bad room", killed them all (literally ripped them all to shreds) except Barbara, and locked all of their body parts in the bad room with Barbara?

If I were Barbara, Homelander would have just had to come find me.

Also, the last scene with Hughie... Hughie's mom took the V from Hughie and gave it to Hughie's dad?

I think part of the point is that Barbara is not a normal person. Barbara is enough of a cold-blooded monster and/or confident enough in Homelander's conditioning to know that he would never kill her due to the mommy issues they ingrained in him.  (Also, it's not as though Homelander couldn't find her if that's what he wanted, between his being CEO of Vought and his own super-abilities. It would be a short bit of freedom).

I'm thinking with this episode that Hughie's mom isn't real. Hughie is externalizing something into a projection of his mom, and attributing behavior to it that he would be uncomfortable owning up to himself. I don't think we have yet seen a third-party react to Hughie's mom, and if Hughie's mom were real, there would be no way for her to even know that Hughie had scored some V, let alone to take it and set arrange for Big Hughie to get that dose.

5 hours ago, Ariah said:

So… Butcher did take V a while ago. And he thinks he doesn’t have any powers… Head!Becca may be a manifestation of that power or a defense mechanism of sorts.

 

I wonder if Head!Becca is related to Hughie's Mom or if it's just coincidence that two of our leads are suddenly experiencing time with dead/disappeared loved ones.

5 hours ago, arachne said:

I don't understand what Firecracker's super-power is, especially after Starlight kicked her ass. And did Firecracker really call Sage "one of the good ones"? That's heavy-handed, even for me. 

It's a shame that Sage has to lobotomize herself whenever she wants to enjoy sex. Is the implication that "smarts" are not sexy? If so, I beg to differ! 😉

Seems a lot of this episode was about how the past will turn back to bite you. I couldn't help feeling a little sympathy toward Homelander, for all the monster that he is. Still -- O.M.G. I could barely look at what he put those two guys thru! And I'm glad we were spared the remainder of his "retribution." The remnants of that were horrible enough.  

 

I'm assuming that Firecracker is a proxy for the X-Men's Jubilee and has similar powers, but we will see. In any case, it seems clear that Starlight legitimately was a powerful hero who earned her way onto the Seven because of her abilities, and Firecracker mostly got brought on because she fits Sage's plans. It doesn't seem like Firecracker has much more in the way of strength or invulnerability than an ordinary person, whereas Starlight does.

I don't think it's so much that Sage has to lobotomize herself to enjoy sex. I think it's that it would probably be very depressing to be the smartest person around, to know that you are outnumbered by morons who won't listen or bow to your superior wisdom, the be burdened with seeing all the angles but to not have the wherewithal to make things better, to have the existential crises that all of us experience from time to time magnified manifold because of your big brain, and to not be able to experience simple pleasures because they are too pedestrian. 

If a temp lobotomy allows you to enjoy dumb reality TV and greasy food and mindless sex, then I could see why she would go for one.

[PurpleTentacle]

Can't say I'm too broken up about the people who tortured a little boy for years getting what was coming to them. How were they all still employed there though? Doesn't really seem like they were working on anything. Have they been twiddling their thumbs there for 40 years?

It was a "fun" reference when they brought up what happened at Homelander's birth.

Man Annie has some anger issues. I mean sure, that was a massive violation, but she should have known, even in that moment, what this would mean for the movement and the country if she went apeshit. Also big mistake not using a fake name when getting the abortion in the first place. She was already wrapped up in all of this stuff when it happened. She should have known that it might come out if used her real name.

It will be interesting to see what powers Butcher has (I doubt it's the temp V powers he had before, because that would be too boring) and if those can keep him alive. At the moment it doesn't look good on the last part.

I knew Hughie's dad would be injected, when they held on an uncomfortably long shot of Hughie taking off his jacket, in which he had just put the V. That of course brings up the question of how Hughie's mom knew how V looks and what it might do for Hugh Sr. Maybe the story, she told last week, of why she left, wasn't true or at least not the whole truth. I thought at the time that it seemed a bit mundane. Unless of course it's a red herring and somebody else came in the room in the meantime. A-train certainly could do so fast enough without even being seen. Maybe he thought for their deal to be complete, Hughie's father needed to actually be saved.

I also wonder if that means that Simon Pegg is going to have a bigger role in the show? I don't think he has as much going on right now as he did when the show started.

[Castiels Cat]

On 6/20/2024 at 3:34 PM, Affogato said:

I am liking this season. A lot of the things that shaped the people we met in the first three seasons is coming to light, and it makes a difference. It was always obvious Homelander was a sociopath, but this made it perfectly clear why he was a sociopath. It really does make him relatable, if you have ever been abused, because that kind of fantasy can get played on repeat. Alternatively, we are beginning to see how empathetic Butcher is, and how his violent behavior and his pushing people away was his way of protecting himself as a child. Starlight certainly has more in her background than we have seen, and all her mistakes have come back to haunt her.

I wonder if everything is real, too. I tend to believe Homelander actually did act out his fantasy of going home and showing them all what he thought of them. I’m not sure if Hughie’s mother is actually there, though, at least for all instances of ‘there’ . Did Hughie administer the V?  Or did his mother administer the V?  If she walks in how would she know the V was in his pocket and get it into the Dad before Hughie came back with the drinks?

I wonder why Vought would do this without having several backup plans to deal with homelander, because they had to know he was crazy, although that explains why they would be working hard to create Supe killing viruses. 

I’d feel for Deep’s doomed romance if he wasn’t cheating on his Cephalopod. That really is low. 

I really miss Timothy. His current squeeze lacks Timothy's depth. That said I do think that Deep keeps her in the closet to protect her from Homelander. The fact that he met her (Annabelle is it) at an organization is sublime because she liquid sex whereTimothy and the Deep had a more intimate bond, a meeting of the minds. Timothy liked to watch. She wanted to be in it.

The Deep remains one of my favorite characters mining gold from these scenes.

 

 

 

[Castiels Cat]

I like the idea of tying Becca and Rosalind together as mirroring. 

We know Butcher injected himself with V with the idea of saving himself. We know he demonstrated powers in episode 4 even if he doesn't yet recognize it and these powers saved his life. We know that part of it is having conversations with his dead wife. We also know he strongly associates Hughie with the younger brother he couldn't save, stopped him from taking more temp V and clearly is found of the Lil bugger.

Did Butcher secretly inject Hughie with V hoping to protect him from his fate. Is that why Hughie was able to protect himself abd fight so well during his encounter with the Shining Light? Seriously when has Hughie fought like that? Is that why he's having conversations with his mother.

Is the temp V causing V to react differently in their bodies. The process appears to be slower and they don't appear to be aware of changes as of yet. Butcher has something sliding around inside him. Hughie is developing fast instincts and reflexes and strength.  

The imaginary conversations may reflect the damage from the temp V. IDK.

[nameless slob]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Honestly, if she's not playing some kind of long game that will end up with Homelander's destruction I do have a hard time buying her as the smartest person alive.

 

Exactly!

[PurpleTentacle]

On 6/20/2024 at 9:34 PM, Affogato said:

I wonder why Vought would do this without having several backup plans to deal with homelander, because they had to know he was crazy, although that explains why they would be working hard to create Supe killing viruses. 

The virus isn't being developed by Vought. To see who is developing it, watch Generation V.

13 hours ago, arachne said:

It's a shame that Sage has to lobotomize herself whenever she wants to enjoy sex. Is the implication that "smarts" are not sexy? If so, I beg to differ! 😉

I think she's just too much in her own head to be in the moment. She doesn't seem to enjoy much of anything when she isn't lobotomised.

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I like the idea of tying Becca and Rosalind together as mirroring. 

We know Butcher injected himself with V with the idea of saving himself. We know he demonstrated powers in episode 4 even if he doesn't yet recognize it and these powers saved his life. We know that part of it is having conversations with his dead wife. We also know he strongly associates Hughie with the younger brother he couldn't save, stopped him from taking more temp V and clearly is found of the Lil bugger.

Did Butcher secretly inject Hughie with V hoping to protect him from his fate. Is that why Hughie was able to protect himself abd fight so well during his encounter with the Shining Light? Seriously when has Hughie fought like that? Is that why he's having conversations with his mother.

Is the temp V causing V to react differently in their bodies. The process appears to be slower and they don't appear to be aware of changes as of yet. Butcher has something sliding around inside him. Hughie is developing fast instincts and reflexes and strength.  

The imaginary conversations may reflect the damage from the temp V. IDK.

Those are really interesting theories, I have to say. On the show it was said before that most adults die to V. It would be interesting if the temp V primed their bodies to be able to take the V without dying, but it also caused other changes, like how long the transformation takes.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm curious what that creature is that is moving under Butcher's skin -- and what are Butcher's unconscious powers ?

As mentioned upthread, I don't think that Temp V is as temporary as everyone thinks it is.

[iMonrey]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:53 AM, arachne said:

And did Firecracker really call Sage "one of the good ones"? That's heavy-handed, even for me. 

She also called her "uppity." Subtlety is not in this show's wheelhouse.

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm thinking with this episode that Hughie's mom isn't real. Hughie is externalizing something into a projection of his mom, and attributing behavior to it that he would be uncomfortable owning up to himself. I don't think we have yet seen a third-party react to Hughie's mom

Hughie went to a lawyer about getting power of attorney from his mother and was told there was nothing he could do. If his mother isn't real why didn't the attorney tell him he already had power of attorney?

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Hughie went to a lawyer about getting power of attorney from his mother and was told there was nothing he could do. If his mother isn't real why didn't the attorney tell him he already had power of attorney?

Have we seen his mom interact with anyone else? It could be that she is real, and does have POA it's just that she isn't actually at the hospital. 

I don't think her or Becca are meant to be ghosts so much as a manifestation of Butcher and Hughie's minds, so his mom can be around but just isn't who we are seeing him interact with in the hospital. 

I honestly hadn't considered she wasn't really there until this thread, but it does make sense to me and I like the idea of it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Hughie went to a lawyer about getting power of attorney from his mother and was told there was nothing he could do. If his mother isn't real why didn't the attorney tell him he already had power of attorney?

Hypothetically, the mom may actually have power of attorney. That doesn't mean that Hughie isn't imagining the mom being there some, or all of the time.

I'll put the question to you: If the mom was actually a real person and what we saw was meant to represent reality (that Hughie decided to not give his dad a dose of V and walked out with the V in his pocket), how did the V  get in Big Hughie's IV?

The mom was present before Hughie left the room. Surely if Hughie injected the V in her presence, she would have had some reaction and some questions. And if he left the room with the V in his pocket, there would be no plausible way for Mom to know that it was there, let alone to grab it from his pocket and inject it.

I suppose the answer could just be bad writing/editing.

But it seems a more Occam's Razor-friendly explanation that Hughie has just made up his mom than that she's shown up out of the blue, not been shown interacting with anyone else, and had the scene this episode play out the way it did.

[Megras]

I realise narrative conventions are against this but what if the dad just woke up and Hughie is "phew!" nearly gave him V  - to compare with the Butcher takes V in the hopes of a cure, etc.

I mean people do recover after a stroke sometimes, right...

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, Megras said:

I realise narrative conventions are against this but what if the dad just woke up and Hughie is "phew!" nearly gave him V  - to compare with the Butcher takes V in the hopes of a cure, etc.

They made a point of showing some blue fluid going through his tubes so it is most likely he was V'd. The question is, by who. It was either Hughie who has been imagining his mother was there for reasons, or it was his mother who really was there. 

If it was his mother, the question becomes how did she get the V if it was in Hughie's pocket, provided it was the same V and not that she had some from another source (unlikely, and rather contrived, but this is tv and I wouldn't put it past them to think it was a clever twist). 

I feel like the most likely is that Hughie is imagining his mom is there and that he gave his dad the V but his brain is "protecting" him think she did it. 

It is funny how the mom really being at the hospital and not a figment of his mind would now be more of a twist than her being imagined. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Hypothetically, the mom may actually have power of attorney. That doesn't mean that Hughie isn't imagining the mom being there some, or all of the time.

I'll put the question to you: If the mom was actually a real person and what we saw was meant to represent reality (that Hughie decided to not give his dad a dose of V and walked out with the V in his pocket), how did the V  get in Big Hughie's IV?

The mom was present before Hughie left the room. Surely if Hughie injected the V in her presence, she would have had some reaction and some questions. And if he left the room with the V in his pocket, there would be no plausible way for Mom to know that it was there, let alone to grab it from his pocket and inject it.

I suppose the answer could just be bad writing/editing.

But it seems a more Occam's Razor-friendly explanation that Hughie has just made up his mom than that she's shown up out of the blue, not been shown interacting with anyone else, and had the scene this episode play out the way it did.

Yes. Also I think the lawyer basically said there was nothing highie could do. If Dad had a dnr, Hughie couldn’t get around it. 

[PurpleTentacle]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Hughie went to a lawyer about getting power of attorney from his mother and was told there was nothing he could do. If his mother isn't real why didn't the attorney tell him he already had power of attorney?

I don't think the theory is actually true, just very interesting, but I imagine a visit to a lawyer would go something like this:

Hughie: "My mom has power of attorney and is enforcing my dads wishes he laid out in a DNR, anything I could do?"

Lawyer: "Is she legally insane?"

H: "No."

L: "Then there is nothing you can do."

That is about as clear cut of a case as you can get. There is no further need to actually look into things and it wouldn't be what a lawyer does anyway. To dig up dirt you can use you'd hire a private investigator.

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

If it was his mother, the question becomes how did she get the V if it was in Hughie's pocket, provided it was the same V and not that she had some from another source (unlikely, and rather contrived, but this is tv and I wouldn't put it past them to think it was a clever twist). 

Hughie left his jacket, with the V in it, in the room. They held uncomfortably long on a shot of him taking it off. That was the moment I knew somebody would take and use the V.

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Hughie left his jacket, with the V in it, in the room. They held uncomfortably long on a shot of him taking it off. That was the moment I knew somebody would take and use the V.

I missed that. So it could be that Mum is really there and gave Dad the V. As much as I like the imagining mum theory because it parallels Butcher with his wife, I am also intrigued by the fact that Hughie's mum might actually know about V and gave it to his dad. Maybe as a way to make up for leaving Hughie, like she knows how much he needs his dad so she made the hard choice for him. 

Whatever happens, I hope it gives Simon Pegg more to do because I adore him. 

[Blue Plastic]

That violent outburst seemed really out of character for Annie. It's hard for me to believe she would do that, no matter how angry she was.

I'm so tired of Frenchie at this point. He can sadsack his way right out the door IMO.

The developments with Butcher and Hughie are...interesting.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

That violent outburst seemed really out of character for Annie. It's hard for me to believe she would do that, no matter how angry she was.

Everyone has a breaking point. And it's totally believable to me that Annie reached hers after not only a protracted campaign of being accused of being a pedophile and more, but also seeing that Firecracker had somehow found out about one of the most private decisions in her life and broadcast it to the world smugly.

i wonder if the public is going to jump to the conclusion that she aborted Homelander's baby.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Hughie left his jacket, with the V in it, in the room. They held uncomfortably long on a shot of him taking it off. That was the moment I knew somebody would take and use the V.

I stand corrected about Hughie walking out of the room with the V.

Still, Mom would have had to:

A) See Hughie fiddling with the V 

B) Get curious enough to go into Hughie's jacket pocket

C) Recognize the vial for what it was

D) Processed that it was something that could save the life of the husband she hadn't seen or been in touch with (as far as we know) for like 20 years

E) Reached the decision that it made sense to administer it to him against the backdrop of other ethical/financial choices (knowing it was a longshot, knowing that a dose of V is probably worth millions to the right buyer, knowing that V literally would be a longshot since it often is fatal in adults on its own, having a discussion with Hughie about the V)

F) Set up the IV to actually administer it

All in the time it took Hughie to go to the coffee machine and back. 

I'm going to stick with my theory that the Hughie's imagining the mom for now.

Edited June 23 by Chicago Redshirt

[iMonrey]

8 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

That violent outburst seemed really out of character for Annie. It's hard for me to believe she would do that, no matter how angry she was.

I'm not sure this would really be the PR nightmare for Annie the show wants it to be. It's not as if the extremists following Firecracker eschew violence. And the pro-choice movement would be on her side. I think there's a way she could spin this in her favor. She kind of blew it when she stood up and acted all shocked that the cameras were rolling instead of just owning it.

On another note - I could NOT watch the lobotomy scene. Nothing with eyes!

[ottoDbusdriver]

59 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

On another note - I could NOT watch the lobotomy scene. Nothing with eyes!

Which brings up another question -- how did Sister Sage discover that her brain would grow back ?

[Mr. Sparkle]

17 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Which brings up another question -- how did Sister Sage discover that her brain would grow back ?

Ha! I was thinking the same thing. I know she's the smartest person in the world, but what exactly was the thought process there? 

 

[Blue Plastic]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure this would really be the PR nightmare for Annie the show wants it to be. It's not as if the extremists following Firecracker eschew violence. And the pro-choice movement would be on her side. I think there's a way she could spin this in her favor. She kind of blew it when she stood up and acted all shocked that the cameras were rolling instead of just owning it.

I think beating up Firecracker on TV is more of a PR problem for Annie than the news of the abortion itself getting out. Most Starlighters would probably be supportive of her making a medical decision for herself, but maybe not so much seeing her beating up someone who is basically unarmed and underpowered.

Firecracker did a terrible thing and I can totally understand Annie being furious about it, but I wish she had handled it in a sneakier way. There has to be a way to get back at that POS that would be more effective long term. Annie didn't even go beat up Deep, and if anyone should be beaten up, it's him.

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Which brings up another question -- how did Sister Sage discover that her brain would grow back ?

Maybe Sage had an accidental head injury at some point and realized her brain could regenerate. I wonder if her actual head and skull can regenerate, or only her brain?

[Castiels Cat]

On 6/22/2024 at 9:39 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm curious what that creature is that is moving under Butcher's skin -- and what are Butcher's unconscious powers ?

As mentioned upthread, I don't think that Temp V is as temporary as everyone thinks it is.

Butcher admitted to taking real compound V to try to cure his cancer however he does not think it worked. I am wondering if it is affecting him differently because he already took the temp V and that has changed him.

On 6/22/2024 at 12:47 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

The virus isn't being developed by Vought. To see who is developing it, watch Generation V.

I think she's just too much in her own head to be in the moment. She doesn't seem to enjoy much of anything when she isn't lobotomised.

Those are really interesting theories, I have to say. On the show it was said before that most adults die to V. It would be interesting if the temp V primed their bodies to be able to take the V without dying, but it also caused other changes, like how long the transformation takes.

Per temp V... yes. That's exactly what I was thinking.

[tennisgurl]

I think this is the only time when I have actually been somewhat on Homelanders side during one of his massacres. Those were some horrifying deaths but what those people did to him as kid is unforgivable, I might not feel much sympathy for current Homelander but I feel terrible for little John. I really have to ask, just what were they expecting? They created a super powered baby, tortured him and treated him like a lab rat his whole childhood and adolescence, and then just expected him to never become angry with them and lash out? Homelander is a monster, but he's a monster that Vought created, literally and figurately. 

Homelander and the head scientist were both so staggeringly full of shit, Homelander has a lot of nerve to get all testy about hurting kids when he has certainly hurt kids or just let them die (like that little girl on the plane) and the scientist cant act like their awful treatment of Homelander as a child was justified because of his power and that his birth killed his mother considering they created him specifically to have powers, its not his fault as a baby what happened to his mother and the scientists he killed. 

Something is seriously off with Hughie's mom. I think she's real but I think she has alterior motives beyond reconnecting with her family and taking care of Hughie's dad. We already know she works for Vought as a saleswoman, I can see her working as a mole or something. It looks like she gave Hughie's dad the V, hopefully this gives Simon Peg a bit more to do!

Between whatever Butcher has going on and Victoria's daughter, are V powers just getting scarier? 

We don't really see a lot of just Hughie and Kimiko interacting so that was nice, as was her hugging Annie after everything that happened. Normally Annie is smarter than this, but Firecracker has been pushing every single one of her buttons plus is dragging up her mean girl past which she is clearly ashamed of, I can see her snapping. 

Its impressive how many right wing bad guy catchphrases they can give to one character. Firecracker has pretty lame powers, I guess she needs the style due to the lack of substance. 

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think this is the only time when I have actually been somewhat on Homelanders side during one of his massacres.

I felt kind of dirty rooting for him, but yeah, I don't care if they were "just doing their job" their job was to torture a child who didn't ask to be born with super powers, they got what they deserved. 

Homelander is a horrible, horrible human being, but I will never stop feeling bad for the little child who was raised to become Homelander. He never asked for any of this, and by the time he was old enough to make decisions about who he wanted to be, he was so far gone there was no way he could choose good. You don't get treated like a monster/god your whole life and grow up to be compassionate. That just wasn't ever going to happen. 

Despite how pure evil Homelander is, he is still a fascinating and complex character. That's pretty impressive since most bad guys who are as unrepentantly evil as him feel incredibly one note. And as a testament to how good Anthony's acting is, I think if I ever ran into him IRL it would take all the strength I have not to run screaming in the other direction. lol

[Josh371982]

On 6/23/2024 at 7:32 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Everyone has a breaking point. And it's totally believable to me that Annie reached hers after not only a protracted campaign of being accused of being a pedophile and more, but also seeing that Firecracker had somehow found out about one of the most private decisions in her life and broadcast it to the world smugly.

i wonder if the public is going to jump to the conclusion that she aborted Homelander's baby.

Firecracker is the Pedo, and I believe it's known Annie/Starlight is with Hughie but I can see some thinking the baby was Homelanders for some reason. I found it disgusting that Firecracker was being forgiven for being a Pedo cause "she found Jesus" but then it does happen in real life 

Edited June 24 by Josh371982

[rmontro]

On 6/20/2024 at 11:23 AM, Affogato said:

Way to make HL relatable. 

Relatable?  He's a monster.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Relatable?  He's a monster.

You are a lucky person.

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

You are a lucky person.

Admittedly.

[Dobian]

This episode exemplifies a lot of the issues with this season.  Sure, there is some good stuff like A-Train's growth, Annie's realization that she has some demons, and Butcher forced to think about someone besides himself.  But so much of the drama feels contrived.  Get Frenchie out of a well-developed relationship with Kimiko and toss him into a gay relationship out of nowhere.  But gee, he murdered the guy's family in front of him.  How convenient.  I guessed what was going to happen in Homelander's plot as soon as he walked through the door of that lab with the fudgy whale cake.  The guy is an unredeemable psychopath, and from Barbara's comments, he was going to turn out that way regardless of the experiments or the nicknames.  Hughie's mom slipping dad the Compound V, saw that one coming too.  Sage is a ridiculous character.  Her "genius" intellect gets challenged by things that any streetsmart person can figure out.  Hey, let's bait Starlight to beat up Firecracker on a live stream!  Yeah, you really needed all 200 IQ points for that one.  Plus, wouldn't the smartest woman on Earth be working on genetic research, curing cancer, or developing artificial intelligence or something, not playing around with a bunch of superhero dipshits? And if Homelander truly wanted to take advantage of the smartest woman on Earth, wouldn't he put her intellect to real use, like figuring out a way to depower his enemies? And why does she need to lobotomize herself to enjoy sex?  Smart people don't like sex?  Huh?  And the "ultraviolence" is really getting old.

This season is still fun in particular moments but the overall direction hasn't been very good.

Edited July 18 by Dobian

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/17/2024 at 12:43 AM, Dobian said:

This episode exemplifies a lot of the issues with this season.  Sure, there is some good stuff like A-Train's growth, Annie's realization that she has some demons, and Butcher forced to think about someone besides himself.  But so much of the drama feels contrived.  Get Frenchie out of a well-developed relationship with Kimiko and toss him into a gay relationship out of nowhere.  But gee, he murdered the guy's family in front of him.  How convenient.  I guessed what was going to happen in Homelander's plot as soon as he walked through the door of that lab with the fudgy whale cake.  The guy is an unredeemable psychopath, and from Barbara's comments, he was going to turn out that way regardless of the experiments or the nicknames.  Hughie's mom slipping dad the Compound V, saw that one coming too.  Sage is a ridiculous character.  Her "genius" intellect gets challenged by things that any streetsmart person can figure out.  Hey, let's bait Starlight to beat up Firecracker on a live stream!  Yeah, you really needed all 200 IQ points for that one.  Plus, wouldn't the smartest woman on Earth be working on genetic research, curing cancer, or developing artificial intelligence or something, not playing around with a bunch of superhero dipshits? And if Homelander truy wanted to take advantage of the smartest woman on Earth, wouldn't he put her intellect to real use, like figuring out a way to depower his enemies? And why does she need to lobotomize herself to enjoy sex?  Smart people don't like sex?  Huh?  And the "ultraviolence" is really getting old.

This season is still fun in particular moments but the overall direction hasn't been very good.

I agree with you overall about the season. But...

No one can really say how Homelander would have turned out if he hadn't been turned into a lab rat and specifically manipulated to be subservient to Vought's interests. 

Sage bills herself as the smartest person, not just the smartest woman. Since it seems like people in the Boys universe are often profoundly stupid, that may be no exaggeration. In any event, just because she's smart doesn't mean she's immune to depression, boredom, or any other other normal-human mental health issues or frailties. In fact, it may make her more vulnerable to them. The way the character seems to have been established is that she thinks about stuff too much and to enjoy some of the normal people's pleasures she essentially has to lobotomize herself. I can envision that. Imagine that everyone else in the world had the intellectual sophistication of a toddler who would never develop beyond that age, and everything in the world was geared to a toddler's understanding, while you had a normal adult intellect. That would be a pretty frustrating experience after a while, no? Nobody being your equal, no meaningful challenges, no way to  improve things. It seems plausible to me that Sage had no interest in doing much of anything beyond being left alone before Homelander came knocking. I don't know if she has to lobotomize herself to enjoy sex. She wants to lobotomize herself to enjoy things that she's normally too smart to enjoy, ranging from greasy fast food to bad TV to sex with the Deep. It's a package deal.

We learn that she has apparently also been sleeping with Black Noir without lobotomizing herself.

Homelander is often cunning, but not very smart. He lets his narcissism get in the way. He doesn't really have any superpowered enemies beyond Starlight and Kimiko, and he doesn't really need to depower them. He could presumably kill or capture them whenever he wanted. I think it's fair to say that he doesn't think too deeply about optimizing things.

[roamyn]

On 6/21/2024 at 10:53 AM, arachne said:

I couldn't help feeling a little sympathy toward Homelander, for all the monster that he is.

He outright murdered a bunch of people who had nothing to do with young John's torture.  He even says there are many new faces, and some are younger than he is.

Amd he didn't do it be because of witnesses, but because he clearly enjoyed it.

So SL can go sick it, cause they could've had a depowered HL last season.