S05.E07: Erigah

[paulvdb]

Quote

With Moll and L'ak finally in custody, the Federation is pulled into a diplomatic and ethical firestorm when the Breen arrive and demand they be handed over. Meanwhile, a frustrated Book looks for ways to help as Tilly, Adira, and Reno work to decipher the latest clue.

Premiere date: May 9, 2024

[AnimeMania]

[NeenerNeener]

OK, that "Seven of Limes" drink name...was that a Seven of Nine joke? I missed what was said immediately after that.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I may be alone in this, but I was relieved that L'ak is off the table. But Moll is making it hard to root for her in this.  She has next to nothing but a poor connection to a now dead Breen royal.  The escape plan was really haphazard, ending with L'ak basically killing himself. Eesh.  Back to Uncle Primark; why would you have an important person with direct lineage to the emperor doing essentially security duty? Yes, L'ak didn't appear to be either bright or ambitious, but why not keep him close to you if you aspire to lead the Breen? This Primark could have avoided this whole Romeo and Juliet scenario!

I love how Michael is always thinking around the box. Having to coax Rayner to revisit his trauma to figure the Breen out was somewhat genius.  It shows that Michael is really good at bringing the best out of her officers.

Happy to see Commander Nhan! My only quibble; how was Moll able to beat her in hand to hand combat? 

President T'Rina is a boss. She knew the Breen language! She is awesome.

I was hollering for Book to forget Moll and work on the mission at hand. He can't make her be the family he lost, and this is the only annoying thing about him in this season.   

I did laugh a bit about Tilly attempting to leave Discovery to protect her cadets. What exactly could you do against Breen, Tilly?

 

 

[Ceindreadh]

Okay, can the next Star Trek spinoff be something like 'The Young Jett Reno Chronicles' where we get to find out more about her pre-Starfleet history?

Loved the lines

Adira "Wow you really got around" (beat) "Not like that!"

Jett "Yes like that!"

[PurpleTentacle]

Micheal coming up with the dumbest plan ever, yet again. Why does anybody listen to her?

The spore drive can go anywhere in the universe instantly. So jumping away and just not having Moll and La'k there was a good idea. Furthermore, they could have left Moll and La'k in a Galaxy far, far away. That would have made everybody happy. Those two could have lived free, the Breen would never be able to get to them and the progenetors tech would be save, since nobody in the milkyway galaxy knows about it, but a few people in the federation.

Storing huge amounts of potentially deadly medicine with a bunch of fugutives is also really not a great idea. Even Beverly, the Crusher, always gave single hypo sprays manually.

Also maybe have your prisoners handcuffed when they are not in a secure cell. We kinda cuff people to hospital beds today, when they have to get treated outside of prison. There is a reason for that.

Another case of a plot that only works because everybody involved is an idiot.

Edited May 9 by PurpleTentacle

[dwmarch]

One thing that stood out to me was Rayner saying "the Breen don't negotiate!" and everyone just letting that go. Um dude, we just negotiated with them one minute ago! They said NOW, we said four hours, they countered with one hour. That is a negotiation!

Also can't let them get away with saying "the Breen are nothing like humans!" when every Breen we have seen so far has absolutely stereotypical human motivations.

I still find it absurd how easy it is for any prisoner to escape. La'k gets them to lower the forcefield around the bed so Moll can tussle with the guards. Okay fine but have you considered locking the goddamn door?!?! Flood the room with knockout gas, get some fresh guards, put Moll in a cell! They only let her be there because she was "going ballistic" or something when they tried separating her from La'k. Well now, she's just going to have to deal with that because acting out should cost her her bedside privileges for the day.

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, sign me up for a "The Chronicles of Young Jet Reno" prequel stat.  As long as it's still Tig Notaro: even with silly wigs and make-up to make her look younger.  I just want twelve or so episodes of her deadpanning her way through all of those outlandish scenarios she was referencing.

So, after everything, L'ak just ends up accidentally killing himself in a failed attempt for Moll to try and escape.  Kind of feels like a going out with a whimper ending for him, but maybe something will come out of the Proto technology being able to bring people back from the dead.  Wished I cared more.  Elias Toufexis and his epic voice did all they could, but I'm just not majorly invested in these characters and their fates.

Speaking of which, so Moll basically is going to join Team Breen?  Yeah, even if Hail Mary works, she better have some kind of backup plan because no way they will let her walk away in any shape or form.  But while Book might hate it, I really can't fault the Federation for letting her go instead of trying to fight back.  She really isn't worth all of the likely deaths that would have happened.  But I suspect he'll be even more moody and angsty going forward.

Loved seeing Nhan again, even if she was surprisingly ineffective in a bout with Moll.  One the flip side, Culber actually held his own there for a second.  The Doctor's got some moves!

No Saru again since he was apparently off on some mission, but at least T'Rina return and was being her normal awesome self.

A little disappointed this is the final season, because Rayner is actually becoming a compelling character for me.  Imperfect, but someone whose reasons and actions are usually understandable, and Callum Keith Rennie is doing great work with everything.  Would have liked to have seen more of him in the future.

[MaryMitch]

I was thinking Moll was going to say she was pregnant. That would have made her child the next in line, right?

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Micheal coming up with the dumbest plan ever, yet again. Why does anybody listen to her?

The spore drive can go anywhere in the universe instantly. So jumping away and just not having Moll and La'k there was a good idea. Furthermore, they could have left Moll and La'k in a Galaxy far, far away. That would have made everybody happy. Those two could have lived free, the Breen would never be able to get to them and the progenetors tech would be save, since nobody in the milkyway galaxy knows about it, but a few people in the federation.

 

I don't think Michael's idea was dumb; if anything, the Breen would have vaporized Starfleet HQ as soon as they noticed Discovery taking L'ak away. That may have been the plan in the future timeline Michael and Rayner saw.  I'm sure our good captain saw her past flash before her eyes when Rayner spoke at the council meeting. That's why she decided to do something different this time. Who knew L'ak was going to overdose in an attempt to escape? If he was any smarter, he probably wouldn't have run off with Moll in the first place.

[Chit Chat]

Raynor's about the only one I like on this show.  It irked me that they shut him down when he was trying to advise them about the Breen based on his own experience.  At least Michael admitted to him later on that she was glad that he shared his story with her.  

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I don't think Michael's idea was dumb; if anything, the Breen would have vaporized Starfleet HQ as soon as they noticed Discovery taking L'ak away. That may have been the plan in the future timeline Michael and Rayner saw.  I'm sure our good captain saw her past flash before her eyes when Rayner spoke at the council meeting. That's why she decided to do something different this time. Who knew L'ak was going to overdose in an attempt to escape? If he was any smarter, he probably wouldn't have run off with Moll in the first place.

Right. The Breen clearly have a scorched earth policy. The Primark would have destroyed the outpost so that no other Primarks would get possible information, however tenuous, on L’ak and also because the Breen are vengeful and pissy. Similar to most star trek aliens they are very human, of course,  but to the Federation they are clearly not well known, but known to be powerful.
 

This is a reminder that in this future the Federation and Star Fleet are small players in the larger galaxy. smaller than they seemed in shows set in the past. They are rebuilding. 
 

L’ak was not smart but perhaps he deliberately killed himself to get Moll free of his issues. If she would listen, Book and the Federation would take care of her. She was in a safe place and he had time to assess that.  I thought his killing himself was deliberate. 

Edited May 10 by Affogato

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

I was thinking Moll was going to say she was pregnant. That would have made her child the next in line, right?

How would that even work? I know, Spock. Still you would think it would involve complex intervention. 

9 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Raynor's about the only one I like on this show.  It irked me that they shut him down when he was trying to advise them about the Breen based on his own experience.  At least Michael admitted to him later on that she was glad that he shared his story with her.  

It was a deliberate callback to Michael’s behavior at the start if the story, therefore evidence she has learned to think twice. Raynor was speaking out of fear and trauma. It is a valid point of view, healthy for him to share, but not the best basis for decision making. 

Edited May 10 by Affogato

[marinw]

Moll has no reason to think that the Breen would treat her well. I don't even want to think about it. I was warming to Lok in the end.

Edited May 10 by marinw

[PurpleTentacle]

11 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I don't think Michael's idea was dumb; if anything, the Breen would have vaporized Starfleet HQ as soon as they noticed Discovery taking L'ak away.

They would have been gone loooong before the Breen got there. Discovery doesn't even leave a warp signature. So you think the Breen would have started an all out war with the Federation, while they are currently in a civil war themselves, over literally nothing? They didn't even have proof that La'k was ever in Federation custody. Seems they just heard about it.

That's a very far reach trying to make this make sense.

Also Federation HQ should really have better defenses. At least enough to get rid of one ship on it's own. This is another part of the idiot plot.

42 minutes ago, Affogato said:

How would that even work? I know, Spock. Still you would think it would involve complex intervention. 

Most species in Trek can interbreed. We also have Deanna Troi, B'Elanna Torres, Commander Sela, Naomi Wildman and probably a bunch I'm forgetting right now. It's actually explained by the progenitors seeding all humanoid life in the galaxy.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

They would have been gone loooong before the Breen got there. Discovery doesn't even leave a warp signature. So you think the Breen would have started an all out war with the Federation, while they are currently in a civil war themselves, over literally nothing? They didn't even have proof that La'k was ever in Federation custody. Seems they just heard about it.

That's a very far reach trying to make this make sense.

Also Federation HQ should really have better defenses. At least enough to get rid of one ship on it's own. This is another part of the idiot plot.

Most species in Trek can interbreed. We also have Deanna Troi, B'Elanna Torres, Commander Sela, Naomi Wildman and probably a bunch I'm forgetting right now. It's actually explained by the progenitors seeding all humanoid life in the galaxy.

Yes they can interbreed. It would require intervention. We are much closer to chimpanzees than we are to any aliens in star trek and it is unlikely there are half human chimps. That it happens at all — advanced medicine. In reality, no, an animal with copper based blood (Vulcan) is not breeding with an animal with iron based blood, but that is beside the point.  To avoid further argument, let me add that it can’t be magic. Advanced technology may be indistinguishable from magic, but iy has a process by which it is done and  the people in the show are the ones doing it. They would know.

star fleet is a small group in this future. The Breen are poweful. They don’t particularly care about the federation, that is clear. 

Edited May 10 by Affogato

[marinw]

What ship is the giant rectangle with the nacelles? Very cool design.

Edited May 10 by marinw

[MissLucas]

Even if L'ak and Moll required intervention to procreate - they had plenty of opportunities to do so. Doesn't strike me as an argument against her being pregnant. It would make an interesting plot and provide her with a good motivation for that final deal she made with uncle Primarch. Much more interesting that the whole zombie spiel the writers room chose - which is why I think she's not pregnant after all.

I'm glad Reno called out how much looking for a magical library sounds like a holodeck adventure for kids LOL! And another vote for getting a 'Young Reno' show but only with different writers.

This show is pretty, I'll give them that. The first shot zooming from the outside into Discovery was great, as was the arrival of the Breen ship.

[Chyromaniac]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

What ship is the giant rectangle with the nacelles? Very cool design.

That was the Locherer - it’s apparently named after a production member who passed away in ‘22.

[marinw]

More like a triangle! Looks like a rectangle from one angle

[Linderhill]

On 5/9/2024 at 4:41 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I was hollering for Book to forget Moll and work on the mission at hand. He can't make her be the family he lost, and this is the only annoying thing about him in this season. 

agreed.  When a relative is a murdering piece of crap, they are a murdering piece of crap whether they are family or not.

[marinw]

So Rayner has a traumatic backstory because of course he does. I called it a couple of episodes back.

[MissLucas]

Prime Cat's Log, 7th life, day 2265

• Getting so weary of all the shenanigans that I had to take a break.
• Underlings were temporarily stomped by fetch quest until first underling’s mate got a cheat sheet.
• Proceeded to planet with unknown pride of underlings living there.
• First underling’s mate and ginger underling decide to mingle with unknown pride and to participate in also unknown religious ritual.
• Because that is always a good idea.
• Lots of moaning about something called ‘Prime Directive’.
• Asked voice in hull and she gave explanation and examples.
• Obviously rule invented by underlings as means to entertain themselves by finding various ways to circumvent it.
•  First underling’s mate has no time or brains for said circumvention and just trudges ahead knowing she’ll get away with it – as usual.
• Underlings of unknown pride will somehow have to manage with supposed damage caused by said rule breaking.
• Grumpy underling of red pride is taking care of skittish kitten because all the other underlings – who insist on talking about feeeelings all the time - don’t care about kitten feeling guilty about time-bug.
• Quest interrupted because lost kitten and injured mate have resurfaced. Not sure why this takes precedence over apparently universe-saving quest.
• Lost kitten still had information about fetch quest – now in hands of underlings. Not sure why we’re still here.
• Mate of lost kitten has pissed off his own pride and now his uncle wants him back.
• Mate of lost kitten is princeling – of course he is.
• Lots of talking and scheming ensues while lost kitten and princeling hatch insane plan.
• Not sure why they were not separated – probably because of feeeeelings.
• Princeling dies as consequence of insane plan and lost kitten runs off with princeling’s pride to help them with fetch quest.
• Meanwhile favorite underling of yellow pride shows up and solves next riddle.
• (First underling helped a bit with riddle solving but since he continues with mopey mating ritual, I’m not inclined to give him praise.)
• Next stop: ancient magic library full of knowledge.
• None of all the scientists on board nor apparently not quite all-knowing voice in hull ever heard of said library. 
• Further proof that favorite underling of yellow pride rocks!
   

Edited May 12 by MissLucas

[RobertDeSneero]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:41 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Back to Uncle Primark; why would you have an important person with direct lineage to the emperor doing essentially security duty? Yes, L'ak didn't appear to be either bright or ambitious, but why not keep him close to you if you aspire to lead the Breen? This Primark could have avoided this whole Romeo and Juliet scenario!

L'ak was given what looks like busy-work that doesn't require much thought.  And the others are probably assigned to watch him.

  I assume there is some sort of traditional Breen xenophobia which makes the Primark think that L'ak would never try to escape or partner with a courier.

 

[MissLucas]

Judging from what Moll said in episode 5 I assumed the dock duty was some sort of punishment.

Quote

Rumor has it the Primarch's nephew doesn't fit the mold around here, has been demoted to shuttle bay duty.

 

[millennium]

This one was painful to watch.   

Most annoying was the Book character, constantly trying to insert himself where he doesn't belong.  Orders don't apply to Book!  He's the Captain's boyfriend!   He can fire photo torpedoes at Discovery and the worst that happens is he has to join the Peace Corps.   He can question said Captain's decisions, argue with Commanders (and the commanders go easy on him because Michael), invite himself to dangerous negotiations with deadly enemies so he can add his two cents regardless that it is disrespectful of Starfleet's highest officials AND his soulmate ...

Running a close second, Burnham acting as his apologist.  "He's a good man.  I trust him."  Awwww.   Isn't that how Book brought things to the brink of disaster last season?

I guess the writers of this show are all so young they have never seen an episode of Star Trek or A HUNDRED OTHER SHOWS where somebody escapes a cell while their partner creates a medical distraction.   They probably thought they had come up with a really fresh idea.

There was no tension to the Breen negotiation.   Because the Breen aren't threatening.   The name Breen sounds like a shampoo.   The whole scene was about as riveting as a prolonged exchange between Tilly and Adira.

But there is a silver lining.   It makes me happy that this dysfunctional series is going to end with what could be its worst season yet.

Plus no Saru!

  

Edited May 14 by millennium

[tennisgurl]

Book seriously needs to get over Moll and focus on the bigger picture, his attempts at connecting with her are going nowhere and she just keeps making things worse. Even while he and the Federation are bending over backwards to protect her and L'ak, she keeps trying to run off on her own, honestly she comes off more like a rebellious bratty teen than a badass mercenary type in a Romeo/Juliet style romance. It also doesn't make Starfleet look great when this skinny young unarmed person can just toss around their security like its no big deal and escape their prison with ease. 

Its too bad that L'ak is the one who died, even if his plan to kill himself was pretty bad, he's a lot more interesting than she is, even if I cant say I am all that invested in their doomed romance. Also, if L'ak is the key to his uncles success, maybe don't have him on security guard duty? Find him some cushy office job where he can be close by and away from danger or outside influence? 

Not surprised that Raynor has a tragic past, I like how it led to Michael using her own past mistakes to relate to him. She let her emotions get the better of her in a tense diplomatic situation and it did NOT go well, being pissed is understandable but not really helpful. 

Great to see T'Rina, she's awesome. Oh yeah, she is studying Breen on Duolingo, no big. 

Count me in on someone else who is desperate for a Young Jett Reno spin-off series!

[fastiller]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

 

There was no tension to the Breen negotiation.   Because the Breen aren't threatening.   The name Breen sounds like a shampoo.   The whole scene was about as riveting as a prolonged exchange between Tilly and Adira.

 

Perhaps you can buy the shampoo at Primark?  Whenever I hear them say "Primark" on the show I think of the shop.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 5/10/2024 at 3:16 PM, Affogato said:

Yes they can interbreed. It would require intervention.

But it mostly doesn't. Of course that's not especially realistic, but it's the world that has been established in Star Trek for more than half a century now.

 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 5/9/2024 at 5:57 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Micheal coming up with the dumbest plan ever, yet again. Why does anybody listen to her?

The spore drive can go anywhere in the universe instantly. So jumping away and just not having Moll and La'k there was a good idea. Furthermore, they could have left Moll and La'k in a Galaxy far, far away. That would have made everybody happy. Those two could have lived free, the Breen would never be able to get to them and the progenetors tech would be save, since nobody in the milkyway galaxy knows about it, but a few people in the federation.

Storing huge amounts of potentially deadly medicine with a bunch of fugutives is also really not a great idea. Even Beverly, the Crusher, always gave single hypo sprays manually.

Also maybe have your prisoners handcuffed when they are not in a secure cell. We kinda cuff people to hospital beds today, when they have to get treated outside of prison. There is a reason for that.

Another case of a plot that only works because everybody involved is an idiot.

The stupidity of Moll and L'ak saying "we're under an erigah" is first and foremost. It's a big galaxy, and there's no reason why they on their own steam could not have gone to whatever part of it they pleased, lived under assumed names and had perfectly happy lives together. For them to still be Moll and L'ak is pathetic. Same with the "if we trade this Progenitors tech, the erigah will be lifted and we can move on with our lives," especially in light of this episode. It becomes clear to Our Heroes -- and thus it should be clear to Moll and L'ak -- that Uncle Primarch NEEDS L'ak to cement his claim to the throne. So there's no universe where Uncle Primarch is going to just let L'ak and Moll waltz away from the erigah even if they hand him the Progenitor tech.

Michael should have offered that sort of freedom to spore-drive it wherever they want to them in the prior episode, but didn't because of idiot plotting, combined with the notion that Moll and La'k "needed" to stand trial for whatever crimes against the Federation and thus needede to be captured.

I also don't understand how the escape pods apparently had warp drive capacity and how Discovery would not have been able to trace the pods. 

That said, our Heroes are incentivized to capture Moll and La'k for humanitarian reasons (they can't knowingly leave people in distress) and for pragmatic reasons (Moll and L'ak may have insights into the fetch quest that will prove useful, and at a minimum, they should not let others who pick Moll and La'k participate in the fetch quest). So Our Heroes can't just leave Moll and La'k stranded and in trouble. The Breen may have been able to get to them through whatever magic allowed them to intercept Starfleet communications about them. 

Practically any medicine can be deadly in the wrong dose, and probably no system is meant to factor in "Hey, someone could deliberately make this delivery system malfunction so they get a much higher than recommended dose" because why would someone under normal circumstances?

I could get behind there being no need to cuff people when in the 32nd century they have forcefields, transporters, knockout gas and all sorts of other measures they could use. But that makes it all the more painful that Moll got as far as she did. And again, when you have transporters, it doesn't make sense that they can't undo L'ak's overdose. Just stick him in the transport buffer and pull up a copy without the damage, and you're good. 

On 5/9/2024 at 9:43 PM, Chit Chat said:

Raynor's about the only one I like on this show.  It irked me that they shut him down when he was trying to advise them about the Breen based on his own experience.  At least Michael admitted to him later on that she was glad that he shared his story with her.  

It seems clear that Rayner has PTSD and so I think his advice should have been shut down, or at least it should have been shut down in the condescending, non-solution oriented way in which it was delivered

T'rina seemed pretty logical and accurate in pointing out how wrong he was about everything. 

On 5/10/2024 at 8:07 AM, marinw said:

Moll has no reason to think that the Breen would treat her well.

Moll has reason to think that the Breen will treat her well as long as she can potentially get the Progenitor tech for them. She may be thinking that once she has that she can resurrect L'ak and then bounce, or she may be planning a double cross, or she may just be figuring that as an improviser she will come up with a plan by the time she needs one.

[Ceindreadh]

3 hours ago, fastiller said:

Perhaps you can buy the shampoo at Primark?  Whenever I hear them say "Primark" on the show I think of the shop.

Hah!  Glad I'm not the only one thinking that!

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems clear that Rayner has PTSD and so I think his advice should have been shut down, or at least it should have been shut down in the condescending, non-solution oriented way in which it was delivered

Throwing out the line "you're xenophobic" was totally unnecessary.  That irritated me.  YMMV.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems clear that Rayner has PTSD

Watching one awful episode of Discovery after another has given me PSTD (Post Star Trek Disorder)

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The stupidity of Moll and L'ak saying "we're under an erigah" is first and foremost. It's a big galaxy, and there's no reason why they on their own steam could not have gone to whatever part of it they pleased, lived under assumed names and had perfectly happy lives together. For them to still be Moll and L'ak is pathetic. Same with the "if we trade this Progenitors tech, the erigah will be lifted and we can move on with our lives," especially in light of this episode. It becomes clear to Our Heroes -- and thus it should be clear to Moll and L'ak -- that Uncle Primarch NEEDS L'ak to cement his claim to the throne. So there's no universe where Uncle Primarch is going to just let L'ak and Moll waltz away from the erigah even if they hand him the Progenitor tech.

Michael should have offered that sort of freedom to spore-drive it wherever they want to them in the prior episode, but didn't because of idiot plotting, combined with the notion that Moll and La'k "needed" to stand trial for whatever crimes against the Federation and thus needede to be captured.

 

I think after the  burn the part of the universe that is out of range of the couriers is small to non existent and the breen are, as I previously mentioned, a pissy race. The destination will be tricky.  And there is the matter of blowing up the headquarters. 
 

still think L’ak killed himself for her.

starfleet doesn’t use the transporter for immortality purposes. 

Edited May 15 by Affogato

[fastiller]

22 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Hah!  Glad I'm not the only one thinking that!

But in Ireland they're called the PENNEYS!

[paigow]

Call the Guardian of Forever.. Send Rayner back to Pike!Enterprise so he can bond with Khan about PTSD

[paigow]

On 5/14/2024 at 3:30 AM, millennium said:

The name Breen sounds like a shampoo.

Ironic...given that they are hairless...

[paigow]

On 5/14/2024 at 3:30 AM, millennium said:

I guess the writers of this show are all so young they have never seen an episode of Star Trek or A HUNDRED OTHER SHOWS where somebody escapes a cell while their partner creates a medical distraction.  

 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Book's reputation as a wild card precedes him. He acts like he's practically helpless to the pull of Moll as ersatz family.

They're going to end up wishing they'd listened to Space Daniel Craig regarding the Breen instead of treating him like Chicken Little.

What's the deal with Rayner's hand? He injured it a few episodes back but he's still lowkey grimacing in pain from it.

On 5/14/2024 at 11:24 AM, tennisgurl said:

cant say I am all that invested in their doomed romance.

Same. I think Moll and L'ak were like the space Bonnie and Clyde, a sad romance forged in crime.