S17.E23: Second Time's the Charm?

[Alexander Pope]

I like Lauren a lot better than Orion and I sympathized with her frustration at constantly being interrupted when they fought at the bar.  But maybe if you don't want to be interrupted, talk less!! I thought Lauren was the biggest blowhard but then came Michael at decision day--omg!!!!  how many words can one man say without saying anything!!

[ECM1231]

2 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

I thought Lauren was the biggest blowhard but then came Michael at decision day--omg!!!!  how many words can one man say without saying anything

What the hell was that gobbledygook he was spouting? Smh

I don't like when both spouses aren't on the same page on DD. I felt embarrassed for Chloe to have said yes and then Michael rejected her. They were never at odds nor were they fighting all the time. They were the only couple this season to consummate their marriage and I had hope that they would stay together. 

0/5. Great job, experts!!!👏

[qtpye]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:31 PM, VioletNevermind said:

dress shorts

I am no fashionista but something about the word "dress shorts" makes me shiver.

[Yeah No]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:57 PM, Retired at last said:

This is the first time they have had to extend the pain show past D Day, and that is because of the late arrival of Michael and Chloe. I don't understand why they couldn't just tape their D Day and show it in one session. They have finished filming long before this, so they are just extending it because they can. 

I thought about that and I think they actually staged decision day for the other couples earlier than they would have if Michael and Chloe weren't around to follow because even by their standards it was getting ridiculous to prolong the agony of watching them for one minute longer!

On 3/27/2024 at 9:42 PM, candall said:

To me, the whole thing spun out of control when Chloe revealed her farm animal sanctuary plan, powered by five foster kids "at a time."

And she wasn't talking some pie in the sky retirement dream, either.  She professed to like the big backyard in that house they fake-toured because the backyard was big enough for goats and sheep and little lambs eat ivy.

Who could ever wrap his mind around a thing like that except someone else who had dreamed a similar rescuer/caregiver dream his whole life?  I like Michael well enough, but his immediate goal is a closet big enough for his sneaker collection.

Despite Chloe's crocodile tears I don't think she was really looking for marriage or she would never have dropped that very specific, out-there dream on Michael like that.  Anyone would have to know that would be a lot to swallow for a mate unless they had shown signs of a similar bent.  And her backpedaling later about how these were dreams from when she was single and not what she would necessarily want when married didn't convince me of her sincerity.  I think they picked her because they needed a replacement to save this horrible season by distracting us from the other couples and their hideous relationships, but she was no real match for Michael and either acting a part or playing along with whatever the producers wanted from her.  

On 3/27/2024 at 9:46 PM, APK said:

The producers showed a clip of the upcoming reunion episodes and it appears Clare was already in a relationship and appeared on the show anyway.

Yeah I don't believe anything out of either Cam's or her mouth so I'm even skeptical of that right now.

On 3/27/2024 at 10:59 PM, Elizzikra said:

I've been giving that scene some thought and... I'm going to say it.

I'm proud of them. 

I could not do what they did. I could not have pictures taken in lingerie at all, much less have them taken knowing they would be seen on television and ripped to shreds on the internet. 

Our society judges women's bodies so harshly. Hell - our society judges everyone's physical appearance harshly. I hate it. I see how it hurts people; literally contributes to physical and mental health issues for literally millions of people. And still, despite constant work, I can't look in a mirror and see anything but flaws. I would not have those photos taken because I would not like what I see, even though I should. Not because I'm some drop dead gorgeous person but because I have a healthy body that carries me through this life. 

So I'm gonna go with... yay women. Y'all put yourself out there and every one of you was and is gorgeous. 

I agree.  I think it was actually a good idea to do after what they'd been through.  They needed that boost to their self images.  I have pictures of myself at around their age on vacation in bathing suits so that's as close to that as I'll ever come!

Quote

Ugh. I hated that. HATED IT. I get that it's probably easier to put everyone in the same building and film a lot of group events, but I think the group dynamic really hurts any prospect there might be for the marriages to grow. I think all the matches were crap this season and didn't really have a chance anyway, but then you throw in the group think and, well...

I didn't watch the earlier seasons and I don't know anything about producers, etc. but I think the last season I watched where the couples lived separately was Philadelphia? I really do think having them all in the same building and constantly interacting in gender groups is problematic. 

I think the producers like the couples being in the same building and knowing each other so they can create more drama for the show but I agree 100% that it is actually destructive to their relationships, probably in no small part to the intervention of the producers who likely instigate them to form factions and create group conflicts that otherwise would not exist.

 

[Yeah No]

18 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I also think the hive mind of Becca, Emily and Clare is pretty destructive because they’ve convinced themselves that their exes were villains, when a) they had hands in the demises of their marriages, and b) at the root of it, the men just weren’t that into them. It happens every day. I once ended things with someone and my friend asked why, and I paused and said “I just didn’t like him that much.” I didn’t say that to him when I ended it, but it was the root of it. It’s very, very often the root of it when something this short ends - as they got to know each other, someone realized they weren’t into it. Brennan can’t stand Emily. Austin’s whatever with the producer is inappropriate but he also clearly wasn’t attracted to Becca. That doesn’t make them villains; it make the couples incompatible. I don’t think the way Clare, Emily and Becca are spinning things is helpful for them in the long run.

 In general, yes, it was about the men not being into the women, which doesn't make them villains.  But that to me is only part of the story.  I think the women were onto something going on behind the scenes and realized that everything that happened to each of them separately had a thread of similarity to it.  All of that BS about "protection" and making sure they had a united, positive image to present to the cameras had group think from the guys written all over it, likely instigated by producers, especially that one in particular that was fired from the show for being a little too friendly with the guys, especially Austin.   And the women formed their own little "group think" faction in solidarity with each other because of that. 

Of course that in and of itself was probably just as destructive but it was understandable in my opinion.  The women were trying to make sense out of the stuff about "protection" that they were presented by their men.  To me that reeked of producer manipulation.  Think about it, we've never seen a season before where that "protection" crap was thrown around like it was common to all of them.  That was likely no coincidence.  I think the men were being told what to do and say and it was all to create conflict and drama.  And it did, and hurt the women much more than if that didn't happen.  I can't blame them for uniting over that. 

If it was just about being rejected I don't think the women would have responded in quite that way as a united front.  They felt that there was some sort of conspiracy going on to manipulate the men and them and I think they were probably right.  And that's what is so upsetting to them.  They're upset about more than just being rejected.  It's being rejected, lied to, manipulated, mislead, deceived, done wrong, AND made to look bad unfairly etc., etc. by both the men and the show.  I feel for them because they likely can't talk about that as openly as they would like thanks to NDAs.

Edited March 29 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, atomic said:

Emily was asked if she really cheated on Brennan and she denied it and said the Australian kissed her lol. I'm no fan of Brennan, but it's interesting how Emily always claims he's the one trying to control the narrative for them. Becca already spilled that it was a makeout, but of course Emily denies it since it goes against the victim narrative she's created for herself. I guess to her credit she didn't lash out at Keisha this time for pressing her for information like she's done on previous episodes.

I think Emily is still pissed over last week's Afterparty where Keisha clearly brought her husband on to support her in finding fault with all of the women.  And I really don't blame Emily.  I don't think that should be Keisha's role here.  She should remain neutral to the couples.  She is not on one of those "dirt dishing" episodes where the moderators get to voice their own opinions.  She should be facilitating and asking pointed questions of the cast and that's IT. 

It feels to me like Keisha has been trying to trap Emily into admitting stuff when perhaps she should just be listening and getting their sides of the situation.  It feels to me like Keisha herself is trying to manipulate Emily to look bad.  I have actually heard enough from Emily's mouth in other places to have reason to doubt that she should look that bad. 

Emily is saying she was completely honest and above board about what she did with the Aussie in talking heads that were never aired, and that it happened after she and Brennan had already agreed that they were going nowhere and coasting along until decision day.  In light of that, who is manipulating who here to look bad?  To me it looks like the show and Keisha herself are trying to do that and in this case I would say that Emily is definitely on the victim end of that.

[Chatty Cake]

6 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

What the hell was that gobbledygook he was spouting? Smh

I don't like when both spouses aren't on the same page on DD. I felt embarrassed for Chloe to have said yes and then Michael rejected her. They were never at odds nor were they fighting all the time. They were the only couple this season to consummate their marriage and I had hope that they would stay together. 

0/5. Great job, experts!!!👏

When Michael woke her up in that pink shirt, he basically told her he was out. I do think her mentioning her foster/animal rescue plans scared him off. By the way, is an animal sanctuary a good idea for potentially troubled children?  I could see it being therapeutic but still possibly a problem. 
Nevertheless, this put Michael off. He’s not a giving person. He is self absorbed which is why he dresses so hideously, does his hair like that, has ugly tattoos and piercings. He needs constant attention because if he dressed like a normal person, nobody would look twice at him. His values are what’s in his closet. He does not really want a wife and certainly not a family. He was a total waste this season. 

[Vanderboom]

12 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

By the way, is an animal sanctuary a good idea for potentially troubled children?  I could see it being therapeutic but still possibly a problem. 

I was thinking that, too. Like others have said: this seems like a project that would work best in the hands of a professional. I'm not sure Chloe has what it takes to make her dream a success. I also think there's something off-putting about the way she seems to view foster kids; she probably likes the idea of "rescuing" them, but hasn't really thought through how to truly be a good parent to them.

Then again, maybe hearing Michael drone on and on about his thoughts and feelings counts as hypnotherapy?

Edited March 29 by Vanderboom

[cinsays]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think Emily is still pissed over last week's Afterparty where Keisha clearly brought her husband on to support her in finding fault with all of the women.  And I really don't blame Emily.  I don't think that should be Keisha's role here.  She should remain neutral to the couples.  She is not on one of those "dirt dishing" episodes where the moderators get to voice their own opinions.  She should be facilitating and asking pointed questions of the cast and that's IT. 

It feels to me like Keisha has been trying to trap Emily into admitting stuff when perhaps she should just be listening and getting their sides of the situation.  It feels to me like Keisha herself is trying to manipulate Emily to look bad.  I have actually heard enough from Emily's mouth in other places to have reason to doubt that she should look that bad. 

Emily is saying she was completely honest and above board about what she did with the Aussie in talking heads that were never aired, and that it happened after she and Brennan had already agreed that they were going nowhere and coasting along until decision day.  In light of that, who is manipulating who here to look bad?  To me it looks like the show and Keisha herself are trying to do that and in this case I would say that Emily is definitely on the victim end of that.

But Emily questioned/downplayed/mocked Cam's heart condition. Keisha reacting to that and questioning her was not victimizing her in my opinion. 

[Yeah No]

28 minutes ago, cinsays said:

But Emily questioned/downplayed/mocked Cam's heart condition. Keisha reacting to that and questioning her was not victimizing her in my opinion. 

I personally don't buy anything out of Cam's mouth and I'm on record here speculating that he over-dramatized his heart issue and milked it for all it was worth just to avoid being on the show.  Emily struggles with expressing herself on camera especially when her buttons are pressed or she would have articulated that better, but I knew where she was coming from with that.  I am frankly shocked that more people didn't see through Cam's ploy there. 

My father had heart procedures and eventually a triple bypass and I was the only person assisting him at that time so I am well aware of what a procedure can do to someone, but how many weeks ago was Cam's procedure even if we counted the actual weeks from the marriages to the procedure to decision day, etc.?  My father was already in his 80s when he had his work done and he would have been able to appear on the show after all those weeks, I am very sure of that.

Keisha had to know that anything she got out of Emily would only make her look bad.  Cam comes off so "sincere" but I am personally not buying it.  Keisha took advantage of people's willingness to believe that Cam wouldn't stretch the truth about something like that and I think that was intentional to make Emily look like the bad guy there.  YMMV.

Edited March 29 by Yeah No

[Chatty Cake]

1 hour ago, cinsays said:

But Emily questioned/downplayed/mocked Cam's heart condition. Keisha reacting to that and questioning her was not victimizing her in my opinion. 

Emily is a bitter drunkard who’s pissed that the guys didn’t like her and her stupid gal posse. If they hadn’t all been so focused on their friendships, they may have made at least one of their marriages work. Emily and Claire were attractive enough to get their husbands interested in them but they chose to behave like buffoons. Becca unfortunately didn’t have much going for her physically nor personality wise. How sad do you have to be to not get Austin interested? 
Only a shitty person would downplay an illness. Go have another drink you petty sore loser!

[Chatty Cake]

On 3/27/2024 at 8:59 PM, VioletNevermind said:

That was just weird.  I’m embarrassed on their behalf. 

Emily and Claire looked okay but but nobody needed to see that. Becca didn’t take very flattering photos, I think she wanted to make herself feel better by making them not look their best. The lingerie Becca chose for herself was awful and ill fitting. Poor Lauren also had an unflattering outfit on. For all the folks defending Becca’s photography, she sure didn’t make her subjects look good!   There was nothing empowering about looking foolish.

[Alexander Pope]

The fact that Chloe consistently refers to her foster kids as "kiddos" tells me all I need to do about her fitness as a foster parent.  I think she calls their pets kiddos too!

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Chatty Cake said:

Emily is a bitter drunkard who’s pissed that the guys didn’t like her and her stupid gal posse. If they hadn’t all been so focused on their friendships, they may have made at least one of their marriages work. Emily and Claire were attractive enough to get their husbands interested in them but they chose to behave like buffoons. Becca unfortunately didn’t have much going for her physically nor personality wise. How sad do you have to be to not get Austin interested? 
Only a shitty person would downplay an illness. Go have another drink you petty sore loser!

Yes, only a "shitty" person would downplay an illness but that's what I saw and what Emily is confirming for me was on the right track.  The women have their failings but these men are downright SHITTY.  Thanks for pointing that out!

And I'm not on board with blaming the women here for the men not finding them attractive.  I think the women have their issues for sure but these men wouldn't have liked them no matter how they presented themselves.  That's my take on it.  I personally think the women have more going for them than the men they were matched with here in pretty much all cases. 

It's much easier for a man to meet a decent woman for many reasons documented elsewhere based on sheer statistics, so why haven't any of these guys?  They aren't mature enough and/or they have BIG issues, that's why.  The women here have their issues too but theirs are in the big picture not as serious, maybe except for Emily if she doesn't get her partying and drinking under control.  I feel sorry for them because there are so few decent guys around these days and that has likely made their search all the more difficult.  And BTW, my 68 year old husband is the BIGGEST critic of these young men on this show and in the world in general, and has the most sympathy for the women here.  So I am just not on board with making this all the women's fault here.

[Maximadc]

Watching Afterparty, I could testify that Emily IS a negative person and DOES have a problem with alcohol. 
And Becca, please stop your crying. Nobody dies in this show. According to you, Austin is a liar and a cheater, so why are you crying about him two months later? The only emotions you should have by now are anger and relief.

[atomic]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think Emily is still pissed over last week's Afterparty where Keisha clearly brought her husband on to support her in finding fault with all of the women.  And I really don't blame Emily.  I don't think that should be Keisha's role here.  She should remain neutral to the couples.  She is not on one of those "dirt dishing" episodes where the moderators get to voice their own opinions.  She should be facilitating and asking pointed questions of the cast and that's IT. 

It feels to me like Keisha has been trying to trap Emily into admitting stuff when perhaps she should just be listening and getting their sides of the situation.  It feels to me like Keisha herself is trying to manipulate Emily to look bad.  I have actually heard enough from Emily's mouth in other places to have reason to doubt that she should look that bad. 

Emily is saying she was completely honest and above board about what she did with the Aussie in talking heads that were never aired, and that it happened after she and Brennan had already agreed that they were going nowhere and coasting along until decision day.  In light of that, who is manipulating who here to look bad?  To me it looks like the show and Keisha herself are trying to do that and in this case I would say that Emily is definitely on the victim end of that.

I agree that Keisha's husband shouldn't be there. It really annoyed me when he blamed Becca for Austin's lying, the way some posters here have done as well. But I don't think Keisha has been trying to make Emily "look bad" with her line of questioning on After Party. When Emily's accused Brennan of behaving abusively off camera, Keisha asked her for specifics and examples, which is totally fair and appropriate. Should have been easy enough for Emily to answer rather than getting defensive and upset.

I actually think Emily got a great edit on the show, and tarnished it all on her own with how she behaved on the After Party episodes. It was totally gross when she gave Austin an attitude about not having sex with Becca, like that's something Becca was entitled to in spite of Austin not being ready. We would all be appalled if a groom asked one of the brides why she wasn't just putting out for his buddy already. The more and more I saw of Emily acting like this on After Party, the more it started to make sense why guys never call her back for a second date.

[Yeah No]

19 minutes ago, atomic said:

I agree that Keisha's husband shouldn't be there. It really annoyed me when he blamed Becca for Austin's lying, the way some posters here have done as well. But I don't think Keisha has been trying to make Emily "look bad" with her line of questioning on After Party. When Emily's accused Brennan of behaving abusively off camera, Keisha asked her for specifics and examples, which is totally fair and appropriate. Should have been easy enough for Emily to answer rather than getting defensive and upset.

I actually think Emily got a great edit on the show, and tarnished it all on her own with how she behaved on the After Party episodes. It was totally gross when she gave Austin an attitude about not having sex with Becca, like that's something Becca was entitled to in spite of Austin not being ready. We would all be appalled if a groom asked one of the brides why she wasn't just putting out for his buddy already. The more and more I saw of Emily acting like this on After Party, the more it started to make sense why guys never call her back for a second date.

I don't agree with you mostly because I see how Emily's inability to express herself well and recall details when put on the defensive is making her look bad.  And I still think Keisha was taking advantage of that.  I was once like that myself and evil people took advantage of that and made me look like the bad guy while they came out smelling like roses.  It's something you recognize if you've been bullied and made to justify every little detail of yourself like I have and I don't mistake that for Emily lying or misrepresenting herself.  I also don't forget who pays Keisha's salary, either.  She is likely being manipulated as much as the rest of them were by producers, etc. to suit whatever narrative they want her to pursue.  And that's not what the Afterparty was EVER about nor should it be in my opinion.  This show is getting more and more trashy by the minute!  

And I think the opposite about Emily - I think much was made about relatively little with her in reality and she was made to look much worse by both the show and Brennan.  In his effort to look like the "good guy" he threw her under the bus at every opportunity by stretching the truth to make her look bad.  And let's not forget the clever editing making it look like she was responsible for breaking a glass and acting wild at Michael and Chloe's wedding.  I don't buy any of that stuff and several people here have commented that she didn't throw the glass.  That is the tip of the iceberg.  She is still getting trashed for engaging in what would be typically male behavior and that's unfair and undeserved too.  

[Maximadc]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I don't agree with you mostly because I see how Emily's inability to express herself well and recall details when put on the defensive is making her look bad.  And I still think Keisha was taking advantage of that.  I was once like that myself and evil people took advantage of that and made me look like the bad guy while they came out smelling like roses.  It's something you recognize if you've been bullied and made to justify every little detail of yourself like I have and I don't mistake that for Emily lying or misrepresenting herself.  I also don't forget who pays Keisha's salary, either.  She is likely being manipulated as much as the rest of them were by producers, etc. to suit whatever narrative they want her to pursue.  And that's not what the Afterparty was EVER about nor should it be in my opinion.  This show is getting more and more trashy by the minute!  

And I think the opposite about Emily - I think much was made about relatively little with her in reality and she was made to look much worse by both the show and Brennan.  In his effort to look like the "good guy" he threw her under the bus at every opportunity by stretching the truth to make her look bad.  And let's not forget the clever editing making it look like she was responsible for breaking a glass and acting wild at Michael and Chloe's wedding.  I don't buy any of that stuff and several people here have commented that she didn't throw the glass.  That is the tip of the iceberg.  She is still getting trashed for engaging in what would be typically male behavior and that's unfair and undeserved too.  

What are you talking about? The show loooved Emily and the entire cast was consoling after the decision day. She made a complete fool of herself attending the aftershows and attacking others. I had enough of her after 30 minutes, so I totally understand Brennan now.

Edited March 29 by Maximadc
Typo

[Rightside]

Can anyone remember when a season of this show was actually good and didn't need to be fast forwarded through 80% of it? Maybe back to the Dallas or Philly season?

I think the show started going off the rails slowly in Season 9 in Charlotte with Jamie and Beth/Matt and what's her name.

It has gotten worse and worse to this season with that lingerie photo shot and 60% of the couples split well before D-Day?

 

[redpencil]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

My father had heart procedures and eventually a triple bypass and I was the only person assisting him at that time so I am well aware of what a procedure can do to someone, but how many weeks ago was Cam's procedure even if we counted the actual weeks from the marriages to the procedure to decision day, etc.?  My father was already in his 80s when he had his work done and he would have been able to appear on the show after all those weeks, I am very sure of that.

He had a second surgery/procedure, and that's what was at issue. Not the original one which was longer ago. You can choose to believe him or not about his condition (I do), but I felt it was totally appropriate for Keisha to defend Cam there for not being at the get together. And I think it would be totally inappropriate for Keisha to question or openly doubt what he says about his health (just as I think it would be totally inappropriate for them to question the veracity of Emily's accident/health, which I also take at face value). Emily herself wasn't even doubting that Cam had a surgery,  just that if she had had surgery, she would have drug herself out of bed to be there, and Cam should have too (which is nonsense). And as someone else said, Clare wasn't even there!

[Maximadc]

Emily did not throw the glass. She knocked somebody else's glass from their hands.
She was rude and judgmental toward others during Afterparty episodes.

And I don't know how we can justify her behavior toward Cam. He is very sick, so-so sick nor sick at all - it is on him, not my place to question.

And I hope nobody will ever question Emily how ill she is, next time she has health issues.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Only a shitty person would downplay an illness. 

You mean like saying that Becca was really sick during the couples' retreat or that Emily wasn't really injured when her ATV hit a tree?

Quote

For all the folks defending Becca’s photography, she sure didn’t make her subjects look good!   There was nothing empowering about looking foolish.

I didn't think they looked foolish. I thought the photos were lovely. 

Quote

And I'm not on board with blaming the women here for the men not finding them attractive. 

Agreed. Their matches weren't attracted to them; that doesn't make them generally unattractive. I think the matches were all pretty bad, actually, and never really had a chance. I'm also really tired of the notion that only conventionally physically attractive people can find a mate or for that matter, deserve one. You don't have to be a stick figure or have a perfect complexion to find love. 

Quote

I think the show started going off the rails slowly in Season 9 in Charlotte with Jamie and Beth/Matt and what's her name.

Amber. 

[Blissfool]

On 3/27/2024 at 8:42 PM, kristen111 said:

At the After Party, looks like Becca has a new face.  Lips and face are puffy.

Becca didn't look different to me, but I did think Emily's face looked less round, more angular, and thus her nose looked bigger. She looked like the actress Juliette Lewis, to me.

13 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

I don't like when both spouses aren't on the same page on DD. I felt embarrassed for Chloe to have said yes and then Michael rejected her. 

I dont feel bad or embarrassed for her. I think this is the outcome she wanted. She came off as the good girl who wants to foster kids and  animals and was rejected by her husband. She was the good girl who tried to please Dr Pepper, Cal, and Pia, but alas her husband thwarted their success story. I really think she manipulated the outcome.

 

36 minutes ago, Maximadc said:

And I don't know how we can justify her behavior toward Cam. He is very sick, so-so sick nor sick at all - it is on him, not my place to question.

And I hope nobody will ever question Emily how ill she is, next time she has health issues.

Emily stated her qualifications in questioning Cam's health issues: "I've had a million surgeries."

Then Becca: "She gashed her head."

[seacliffsal]

The only people I felt sorry for during this episode (other than us, the viewers...) were the patrons of the bar/restaurant where the group activity took place.  The background people looked like all they wanted to do was eat and drink in peace and enjoy their evening.  But, noooooo, they had to witness the arguments, accusations, and word salad of the show's participants.  I would have demanded that the restuarant or producers comp my meal.  Really?  They couldn't get a private room for these shenanigans?

Oh, and during either the episode or Afterparty, Becca mentioned that she still didn't feel well from her surgery.  I think it was a real misstep that she participated in this season as she obviously (based on her statement) wasn't feeling her best and it may have affected Austin as well as she did have limitations during the honeymoon and perhaps through the entire season.

[Hip-to-be-Square]

Watching Michael and Chloe's word salad AI robot people talk on Decision Day was excruciating to listen to 😖! So many useless words strung together to try to sound smart 😏- get it out already, BITCH! 😅  They both talk like they're writing a college essay last minute and trying to reach a word/page count.  

Edited March 29 by Hip-to-be-Square

[Hip-to-be-Square]

If Michael didn't tell his mom that he's married- will he tell her that he's getting divorced?! 😵🤔😅

[Elizzikra]

20 minutes ago, Hip-to-be-Square said:

If Michael didn't tell his mom that he's married- will he tell her that he's getting divorced?! 😵🤔😅

If he does tell her, can we not see the conversation? I’m don’t with all of them.

[LennieBriscoe]

 I am not 100% "blaming the women" and their appearances for their husbands' lack of attraction to them (okay, I mentioned the pink hair!). 

I am blaming the women for their actions: utter refusal to see and acknowledge the indifference and then practically begging to be "wanted";  excess drinking and talking about one-night stands; saying your dream is a human and animal menagerie; etc. 

Whatever they wore in clothing and hair, this season's grooms seemed pretty traditional, even conservative (small "c") men. 

Edited March 30 by LennieBriscoe

[princelina]

On 3/26/2024 at 4:19 PM, Retired at last said:

Maybe she will try to compromise by taking fewer foster children, although then there will be less help with the animals.

Please - they're called kiddos. 😄. I think she was making that crap up as she went along anyway - or did she actually tell all that tot he "experts" and we never saw it?  I recall her telling them that she's a "minimalist", which doesn't really vibe with a big house and yard and outbuildings full of animals and kiddos

On 3/27/2024 at 9:42 PM, candall said:

I miss the early days when Michael threw on a skirt and fluffed up his big cluster of grapes hairdo and Chloe would just gulp and saddle up and out the door they'd go.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

On 3/27/2024 at 10:59 PM, Elizzikra said:

Oh - also - this season we really had no discussion at all about the couple's finances (except the tiny bit about Michael and Chloe's rent). I don't know if the early seasons has more practical discussions but I do want to hear them talk about how they envision blending their finances (or not); what their priorities are financially; where they want to live; just all the pragmatics of how you blend two individual lives into one family life. I want way more of that.

In the early days there was a whole episode devoted to this topic!

On 3/28/2024 at 8:33 AM, Empress1 said:

I love DGAF Lauren. When she was telling Orion about himself, I was here for it.

Me too!!!!!  The only thing that's missing is her accusing him of setting her up, because he did.

On 3/28/2024 at 9:50 AM, cinsays said:

whoever decided that outfit on becca would make for a sensually pleasing photo was very wrong

Hahaha all I could think of was what must be going through Austin's mind as he watches this episode, when she says this was the outfit he ran from on the couples retreat 😂😂😂

14 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I personally don't buy anything out of Cam's mouth and I'm on record here speculating that he over-dramatized his heart issue and milked it for all it was worth just to avoid being on the show. 

 Cam comes off so "sincere" but I am personally not buying it.  

I am with you totally on this!  I see in the previews that he's going to accuse Clare of "gaslighting" him!  Big fat liar.

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

It's much easier for a man to meet a decent woman for many reasons documented elsewhere based on sheer statistics, so why haven't any of these guys?  

Yep - they're all attractive and decently employed - should be a catch.  But the women need to get some dignity and just quit embarrassing themselves (talking especially to you, Becca!)

9 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I'm also really tired of the notion that only conventionally physically attractive people can find a mate or for that matter, deserve one. You don't have to be a stick figure or have a perfect complexion to find love. 

In real life, no.  When being matched on tv - people kind of expect it.  I think of Joey Tribbiani teaching a class on "Soap Opera Acting" which ends with his lament that he's stuck teaching a bunch of people who aren't even attractive enough to be on tv! 😂

6 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

The only people I felt sorry for during this episode (other than us, the viewers...) were the patrons of the bar/restaurant where the group activity took place.  The background people looked like all they wanted to do was eat and drink in peace and enjoy their evening.  But, noooooo, they had to witness the arguments, accusations, and word salad of the show's participants.  I would have demanded that the restuarant or producers comp my meal.  Really?  They couldn't get a private room for these shenanigans?

Really?  People say that about housewife fights too, but I must disagree with all of you - if I were there I'd be soaking up every minute and then running back here to gleefully report in!  😂

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, Maximadc said:

What are you talking about? The show loooved Emily and the entire cast was consoling after the decision day. She made a complete fool of herself attending the aftershows and attacking others. I had enough of her after 30 minutes, so I totally understand Brennan now.

I didn't see the show as "loving" Emily.  If it loved her so much it wouldn't have allowed all those scenes to air that are making her look bad and people not like her.  That's my proof right there that she got a bad edit.  If the show loved her so much and she got such a good edit then why are people lining up here to criticize and bash her?   I have never said that Emily was a spotless individual by a long shot, but she is at least genuine even in her worst moments.  I can't say that for Brennan or any of the men this season except perhaps Michael and I'm not really sure about him either.

The fact that the cast was consoling her should be some proof that maybe she wasn't as bad as the show made her look.  And even though she did say and do some of those things you brought up I am never going to say that she deserved the treatment she got from Brennan.  I can understand a guy not wanting to be matched with a woman that might have a drinking problem and has a history of one night stands but to treat her the way he did was despicable and undeserved.  He was angry, avoidant, and treated her with total disdain like she was a piece of crap he wanted to be rid of but only stayed with not to look like the bad guy and threw her under the bus at every opportunity just to protect his image on screen.  What she says about him I have seen with my own two eyes and I don't blame her for reacting the way she did.  I try to imagine my husband in the same situation and while he wouldn't have wanted her either he would never have treated her that way.  That's the difference between people.  My husband is a decent man.  Brennan is just an asshole.  Maybe that's why my husband has been married for close to 44 years and Brennan is still unattached.

I have to say this about myself - I may get the facts wrong sometimes but as to judging character I have a very good track record.  And my husband (who also watches the show) and I are always in agreement about that so that says something too.  I don't care what "he said/she said".  That's just surface crap.  Everyone looks like shit in their worst moments.  Emily was lashing out for good reasons in my opinion.  She just didn't look great while doing it, probably because she's a genuine, honest person that doesn't put on an act to look like her shit doesn't stink.  The question I ask is what are these people like down at their core?  What is motivating them?  That's what I am looking for here and what I value the most.  One of my best friends is a divorce lawyer.  I was telling him about this season of MAFS and he said it sounded all too much like what he deals with every day.  I am just so sure he would see this season and agree with me and my husband.

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, Rightside said:

Can anyone remember when a season of this show was actually good and didn't need to be fast forwarded through 80% of it? Maybe back to the Dallas or Philly season?

I think the show started going off the rails slowly in Season 9 in Charlotte with Jamie and Beth/Matt and what's her name.

I see what you're saying but I actually think the last decent season was the one in New Orleans.  After that it just went straight into the toilet.

10 hours ago, redpencil said:

He had a second surgery/procedure, and that's what was at issue. Not the original one which was longer ago. You can choose to believe him or not about his condition (I do), but I felt it was totally appropriate for Keisha to defend Cam there for not being at the get together. And I think it would be totally inappropriate for Keisha to question or openly doubt what he says about his health (just as I think it would be totally inappropriate for them to question the veracity of Emily's accident/health, which I also take at face value). Emily herself wasn't even doubting that Cam had a surgery,  just that if she had had surgery, she would have drug herself out of bed to be there, and Cam should have too (which is nonsense). And as someone else said, Clare wasn't even there!

Of course no one questions it when someone says they have a medical issue, it wouldn't look good to do so, and that's what Cam was banking on.  He had the perfect "out" without taking responsibility for it.  By the way, I ran that by the friend I mentioned above, who is 62 and has had 4 heart procedures himself and he also said there was likely no medical reason at that point that Cam couldn't have shown up.  Unless Cam had full open heart triple bypass surgery I am still skeptical and even then I know that today that is less invasive than it was in 2010 when my father had it.  Plus Cam is maybe 30 something and my father was 86 when he had his surgery.  Yeah, no.  Cam successfully pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.

And I am sure Emily knows more about the real reasons Cam didn't show up than Keisha does because she is in touch with Clare who I'm sure had her ways of finding out.  And you have to give Emily her due - she handled her own medical issue like a trooper and didn't let it get in the way of filming even though she must have had to push herself to do it.  We even saw her in the hospital with dried blood in her hair and people were STILL doubting the FACTS and claiming her accident was a fake!  It completely FLOORS me how people still want to find reasons to claim that Emily is the villain and the faker here.  They would rather believe that whole accident thing was faked, as if there would be any reason for that or that anyone would go to such ridiculous lengths.  UNBELIEVABLE.  And Emily is found fault with for calling out the REAL fakers here.  Again, UNBELIEVABLE.

Edited March 30 by Yeah No

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I see what you're saying but I actually think the last decent season was the one in New Orleans.  After that it just went straight into the toilet.

I agree.

I don't know if it was the Pandemic or what but this season was a complete waste of everyone's time and that was the last season that I was kind of invested in the couples.

Also, that season produced Woody and Armani. They are one of the show's few success stories.

[princelina]

21 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Of course no one questions it when someone says they have a medical issue, it wouldn't look good to do so, and that's what Cam was banking on.  He had the perfect "out" without taking responsibility for it. 

Yep.  And he was a known liar before that.  All I want is a doctor's note 😃

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Agreed. Their matches weren't attracted to them; that doesn't make them generally unattractive. I think the matches were all pretty bad, actually, and never really had a chance. I'm also really tired of the notion that only conventionally physically attractive people can find a mate or for that matter, deserve one. You don't have to be a stick figure or have a perfect complexion to find love. 

One thing I do know about men is that if they are really into you what you're wearing or how perfect your body is is not even on their radar.  Despite what people say about them being focused primarily on physical attributes they are more forgiving than they get credit for in my experience.

10 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I dont feel bad or embarrassed for her (Chloe). I think this is the outcome she wanted. She came off as the good girl who wants to foster kids and  animals and was rejected by her husband. She was the good girl who tried to please Dr Pepper, Cal, and Pia, but alas her husband thwarted their success story. I really think she manipulated the outcome.

I have suspected the same thing about Chloe.  Going on about all those foster children and animals was either consciously intentional or she was unconsciously sabotaging the relationship.

10 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Emily stated her qualifications in questioning Cam's health issues: "I've had a million surgeries."

Then Becca: "She gashed her head."

I don't think Emily is going to reveal just exactly how she knows that Cam was well enough to come back to the show sooner than he acted like he was.  I think Clare probably spied on him to find out.  I can see Clare doing that in that situation.  I can see why she wouldn't have trusted him and wanted to find out the truth.  I think Clare has been trying to keep her mouth shut about a lot of things because of her agreement with Cam not to say anything bad about the other one but neither she nor Cam have held to that perfectly.  I think both of them will come out with more dirt about the other one in the upcoming reunion episode.  I don't know if I will believe either of them as I have my doubts about both of their honesty at this point.

1 hour ago, LennieBriscoe said:

 I am not 100% "blaming the women" and their appearances for their husbands' lack of attraction to them (okay, I mentioned the pink hair!). 

I am blaming the women for their actions: utter refusal to see and acknowledge the indifference and then practically begging to be "wanted";  excess drinking and talking about one-night stands; saying your dream is a human and animal menagerie; etc. 

I don't deny their behavior but the real issue is whether they deserved the treatment they got from their husbands for wanting what anyone getting married would want or for believing that maybe their husbands weren't lying and faking and that perhaps there was indeed a future with them after all.  If being unrealistic and self-sabotaging is the worst that can be said of them I still think they're far better human beings than the men they were matched with overall.

 

[princelina]

2 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I don't deny their behavior but the real issue is whether they deserved the treatment they got from their husbands for wanting what anyone getting married would want or for believing that maybe their husbands weren't lying and faking and that perhaps there was indeed a future with them after all.  If being unrealistic and self-sabotaging is the worst that can be said of them I still think they're far better human beings than the men they were matched with overall.

I don't think they're deserving of how their husbands treated them.  I do think they're deserving of us thinking badly of them since they can't get it together, suck it up and have some pride and dignity.  They did find these husbands on a tv show after all - they weren't marrying their boyfriends of several years and then being shocked at new behavior!

[Yeah No]

27 minutes ago, princelina said:

I don't think they're deserving of how their husbands treated them.  I do think they're deserving of us thinking badly of them since they can't get it together, suck it up and have some pride and dignity.  They did find these husbands on a tv show after all - they weren't marrying their boyfriends of several years and then being shocked at new behavior!

I agree with you to an extent.  I think the women's behavior that is being criticized needs to be seen in the context of what they were facing both from the show and their spouses, and I forgive them a lot because of that.  I don't think they banked on this level of crap coming at them.  We don't even like it so why should we criticize them that much for having to deal with it first hand?  We still want the show to be about really finding love so why shouldn't they?  That's what it's supposed to be about, not what we're seeing here.  I do believe most of these women (except for perhaps Chloe and even to some extent Clare) were sincere about finding love and marriage even as they may have had their own issues getting in the way of that happening.  I am not so sure about the sincerity and willingness of some of these men to put themselves into this 100%.  Knowing how so many of them are recruited and end up obviously not even interested in much less ready for marriage makes me see them as the biggest offenders here right off the bat.

[Maximadc]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I agree with you to an extent.  I think the women's behavior that is being criticized needs to be seen in the context of what they were facing both from the show and their spouses, and I forgive them a lot because of that.  I don't think they banked on this level of crap coming at them.  We don't even like it so why should we criticize them that much for having to deal with it first hand?  We still want the show to be about really finding love so why shouldn't they?  That's what it's supposed to be about, not what we're seeing here.  I do believe most of these women (except for perhaps Chloe and even to some extent Clare) were sincere about finding love and marriage even as they may have had their own issues getting in the way of that happening.  I am not so sure about the sincerity and willingness of some of these men to put themselves into this 100%.  Knowing how so many of them are recruited and end up obviously not even interested in much less ready for marriage makes me see them as the biggest offenders here right off the bat.

I wouldn't use the word OFFENDER loosely.
Could you please provide some examples, not adjectives for each male participants to justify your use of the word?

[cinsays]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I see what you're saying but I actually think the last decent season was the one in New Orleans.  After that it just went straight into the toilet.

Of course no one questions it when someone says they have a medical issue, it wouldn't look good to do so, and that's what Cam was banking on.  He had the perfect "out" without taking responsibility for it.  By the way, I ran that by the friend I mentioned above, who is 62 and has had 4 heart procedures himself and he also said there was likely no medical reason at that point that Cam couldn't have shown up.  Unless Cam had full open heart triple bypass surgery I am still skeptical and even then I know that today that is less invasive than it was in 2010 when my father had it.  Plus Cam is maybe 30 something and my father was 86 when he had his surgery.  Yeah, no.  Cam successfully pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.

And I am sure Emily knows more about the real reasons Cam didn't show up than Keisha does because she is in touch with Clare who I'm sure had her ways of finding out.  And you have to give Emily her due - she handled her own medical issue like a trooper and didn't let it get in the way of filming even though she must have had to push herself to do it.  We even saw her in the hospital with dried blood in her hair and people were STILL doubting the FACTS and claiming her accident was a fake!  It completely FLOORS me how people still want to find reasons to claim that Emily is the villain and the faker here.  They would rather believe that whole accident thing was faked, as if there would be any reason for that or that anyone would go to such ridiculous lengths.  UNBELIEVABLE.  And Emily is found fault with for calling out the REAL fakers here.  Again, UNBELIEVABLE.

but i don't think cam was the one who said he was not there because of his heart issues, that's what the group or at least the girls thought. maybe he just didn't want to be around these people and why would he?

[Yeah No]

42 minutes ago, Maximadc said:

I wouldn't use the word OFFENDER loosely.
Could you please provide some examples, not adjectives for each male participants to justify your use of the word?

I have not used that word loosely and have posted these details many times on many of this season's episode threads to the point of repeating myself over and over again ad nauseum.  I have no desire to re-enumerate them and I'd like to spare everyone else from that too.  If you really want to see them I suggest going back in the threads and reading my posts.  Obviously I don't feel that I have been heard on this subject.  It floors me how these glaring examples have been completely missed and glossed over - both those that I saw with my own eyes on the show and my enumeration of them here.  I think important details are being filtered out and dismissed.

ETA:  To understand the word "offenders" in the context of that quote of mine, I was using it to draw attention to at least some of the men being recruited and probably not being genuinely 100% invested in finding a spouse as their biggest "offense".  And I do think that's an offense on a show that should be doing its best to find people that are ready willing and able for a legally binding lifelong commitment.  I blame the show ultimately for allowing people that aren't really committed to that purpose on it but I've already said I don't think they give a crap about whether anyone they recruit is genuinely invested in finding a spouse anymore.  I actually think they always had a few intentional train wrecks but they also included genuine matches in earlier seasons.  Now it's all for drama.

Edited March 30 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

1 minute ago, cinsays said:

but i don't think cam was the one who said he was not there because of his heart issues, that's what the group or at least the girls thought. maybe he just didn't want to be around these people and why would he?

It might have been an assumption, I really don't know.  As I said previously, I suspect that Emily has inside information from Clare on the real reason Cam was absent that she doesn't want to openly reveal she has.  Also I think she probably broadened the issue to address earlier episodes where he wasn't present and used that as his excuse.  But what was his real reason for not attending?  Why didn't he openly disclose it if he really didn't want to be with these people?  Oh, I forgot, he's afraid of looking bad on camera so he would never admit that openly!

[seacliffsal]

Regarding Cam not being at the group event-I'm more surprised that any of them showed up.  Those relationships are over.  It could not be more clear to me as a viewer so it must be even clearer to an actual participant.  Now, if they are contractually required to be there, I can understand why they're there (were penalties/fines levied against Brennan, Cam, and Clare for not being there?).  Emily made a deal about Cam not being there and did reference 'who does therapy at night' about Clare not being there-but if Clare knew this was a filming date, she could have cleared her schedule for it.  Emily was also snarking about Brennan not being there.  Now that I'm thinking about it, it was Emily who was calling out everyone for not being there.  But, outside of additional t.v. time or contracts, I can not see one reason to be there (free drinks? not worth it).

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

Regarding Cam not being at the group event-I'm more surprised that any of them showed up.  Those relationships are over.  It could not be more clear to me as a viewer so it must be even clearer to an actual participant.  Now, if they are contractually required to be there, I can understand why they're there (were penalties/fines levied against Brennan, Cam, and Clare for not being there?).  Emily made a deal about Cam not being there and did reference 'who does therapy at night' about Clare not being there-but if Clare knew this was a filming date, she could have cleared her schedule for it.  Emily was also snarking about Brennan not being there.  Now that I'm thinking about it, it was Emily who was calling out everyone for not being there.  But, outside of additional t.v. time or contracts, I can not see one reason to be there (free drinks? not worth it).

This is exactly what I was going to post. Presumably the filming contract was for X date through X date. The show decides to drag this out an extra month to throw in an extra couple, that’s on you (show). Plus, it sounds like he already got “medical leave” for his surgeries, so there is no benefit for this man to show up. Everyone else who did go is just extending their 15 minutes of fame and making one last valiant effort to prove why they are right and their partner is wrong. I think Cam, Clare, and Brennan were the only ones who made the right decision not to go and relive the pizza party from hell. If this was under the guise of celebrating Chloe and Michael and bestowing them with warm wishes going into decision day, well, that really backfired. Orion and Lauren didn’t even last a week. Why are they pretending like these many end-of-journey parties are making them reconsider? The whole cast has said everything they need to say to their failed matches. We viewers have been thoroughly subjected to the protection gaslighting litigation. Enough already. Much respect to those cast members who are done. You did your after shows, we got a reunion coming up that no doubt will be more of the same. I have no doubt we’ll be seeing Becca and Emily for years on these reunion/reaction shows like we’re getting next week. I don’t think we’ll ever see Brennan or Cam again. And, frankly, who do you think is “here for the wrong reasons” (ie, reality TV fame and the opportunity to become a social media influencer) vs the “right reasons” (ie, to find love), as popularized by the Bachelor franchise? The people who take every opportunity to be on TV or the people who just want to get off the show and move on with their lives? 
ETA: Just to clarify, of course I think Emily and Becca were both genuinely here to find love. I just meant it’s “a good sign” for someone’s sincerity that they choose to forgo more filming opportunities and just want to move on with their lives. So I respect Cam, Brennan, and Clare for not showing up—despite any other red flag behavior they may have displayed throughout the rest of the experience.

Edited March 30 by JenE4

[Yeah No]

I think they may all still be under contract through the end of filming, whenever that is even if it's after decision day.  Otherwise who would show up for the reunion shows?  And seriously, would Lauren have ever shown up for one single day past when Orion said he wanted a divorce, or especially in any episode past decision day?  I doubt that very much.  And I doubt they wouldn't be required to be there for this last episode either.  I'm sure that's the reason Emily is muttering under her breath about their absence and what she thinks are suspicious excuses. 

I do understand the others not wanting to be there, but it does look to me like Emily is being the most straightforward and open about things in general here.  She's like "Bullshit, I showed up and I was injured and in the hospital!"  People may not like the way she goes about it but I sympathize with her.  And I hear her, she sees through the excuses.  If the absent ones don't want to be there, fine, just be open about why and face the consequences if that means a penalty.  I am NOT going to support these little weasels in that regard.   Everyone expects these people to know what they got themselves into and face it like adults, but somehow it's OK for them to fudge on this?  Ironically Emily is showing more integrity than the rest of them, except perhaps for Lauren.

[cinsays]

11 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I think they may all still be under contract through the end of filming, whenever that is even if it's after decision day.  Otherwise who would show up for the reunion shows?  And seriously, would Lauren have ever shown up for one single day past when Orion said he wanted a divorce, or especially in any episode past decision day?  I doubt that very much.  And I doubt they wouldn't be required to be there for this last episode either.  I'm sure that's the reason Emily is muttering under her breath about their absence and what she thinks are suspicious excuses. 

I do understand the others not wanting to be there, but it does look to me like Emily is being the most straightforward and open about things in general here.  She's like "Bullshit, I showed up and I was injured and in the hospital!"  People may not like the way she goes about it but I sympathize with her.  And I hear her, she sees through the excuses.  If the absent ones don't want to be there, fine, just be open about why and face the consequences if that means a penalty.  I am NOT going to support these little weasels in that regard.   Everyone expects these people to know what they got themselves into and face it like adults, but somehow it's OK for them to fudge on this?  Ironically Emily is showing more integrity than the rest of them, except perhaps for Lauren.

not sure what is unadult about not attending an event you have no interest in that is likely to be another gang up on the guys part;y

emily is showing integrity? for getting more facetime? agree to disagree

[Yeah No]

13 minutes ago, cinsays said:

not sure what is unadult about not attending an event you have no interest in that is likely to be another gang up on the guys part;y

emily is showing integrity? for getting more facetime? agree to disagree

Sure I'll agree to disagree but it looks to me like whenever Emily does something a nefarious reason is ascribed to it, meanwhile the men can crap all over the women ON SCREEN and somehow the women must have deserved it even if it's based on 2nd hand information or suspicions that they smell, etc.  That's it in a nutshell for me. 

And yes, Emily has more integrity because she's willing to be there despite probably not wanting to be there.  Did she look happy to be there?  Not to me.  I trust what I see with my eyes.  And she had even LESS reason to be on the Afterparty after the way Keisha treated her last week!  At least she faces this like an adult, not a dishonest baby weasel trying to avoid looking bad.  Unfortunately with people trying to make her look bad and turning the tables on her so no one sees what THEY'RE really doing wrong SHE ends up looking bad.  Been there, done that and have the T-shirt.  

[Retired at last]

To all of you who are lamenting that we are missing some of the cast - never fear - in 2 weeks, we get to see them all return for the Reunion show! (Even though they haven't been apart, we will get to see everyone rehash what has happened since D Day, and how the women are still mad at the men and how the men don't care. Except for Orion, who is probably going to try to get Lauren to like him again.

[Chatty Cake]

1 hour ago, cinsays said:

not sure what is unadult about not attending an event you have no interest in that is likely to be another gang up on the guys part;y

emily is showing integrity? for getting more facetime? agree to disagree

Emily hasn’t shown integrity imo. 

[princelina]

10 hours ago, cinsays said:

but i don't think cam was the one who said he was not there because of his heart issues, that's what the group or at least the girls thought. maybe he just didn't want to be around these people and why would he?

Could he just tell the producers that he hates everyone and isn't filming anymore?  Seems unlikely.

[Elizzikra]

13 minutes ago, princelina said:

Could he just tell the producers that he hates everyone and isn't filming anymore?  Seems unlikely.

If the producers are as involved as it seems they are, they already know.

[princelina]

4 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

If the producers are as involved as it seems they are, they already know.

Yeah but that shouldn't mean he can just do it.  Everyone else has to show up and play their part