S05.E09: The Useless Hand

[Bort]

Quote

The tide turns.

Airdate: January 9, 2024

[TakomaSnark]

Using YMCA for the Tillman (MAGA) rallying of supporters was a choice and I love them for it.

[AimingforYoko]

And then ending with "Whipping Post". Hawley's always been good with musical choices.

And Lorraine's heart grew three sizes that day. I loved Dot getting choked up about it.

[Spartan Girl]

The real life parallels are about as subtle as an explosion.

Okay I’m just going to say it: can Munch ever shut the hell up? His Fargo speak is too much even for Fargo.

1 minute ago, AimingforYoko said:

And Lorraine's heart grew three sizes that day. I loved Dot getting choked up about it.

Me too. But I swear to God the Elmer Fudd hat she donned for her disguise reminded me unpleasantly of Lester.

Points to the FBI lady for finally defining what a “witch hunt” really is. I’m so sick of that term being bastardized by men.

[Starchild]

5 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

And Lorraine's heart grew three sizes that day. I loved Dot getting choked up about it.

Her reaction to the news of Danish's death was understated perfection. Her first feelings of vulnerability in decades probably. Aw she really did care about him, in her way.

[Starchild]

Forgot to mention, she called the "orange idiot", presumably Trump, since it's set in 2019.

So she went straight to the President of the US.

[Bort]

I swear, I don’t actually wonder why Gator hasn’t got two functioning brain cells to rub together. Roy isn’t quite as stupid but he’s still no Mensa candidate. Like Dot was really going to hang around and hide in a house she filled up with gas.

I also loved that YMCA segment. That was gold.

[The Wild Sow]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

Roy isn’t quite as stupid but he’s still no Mensa candidate.

Obvious that his father-in-law is the real power behind the sheriff’s badge. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Forgot to mention, she called the "orange idiot", presumably Trump, since it's set in 2019.

So she went straight to the President of the US.

And when she was complaining to the unseen person on the phone, "Now, honestly, what's the point of being a billionaire if I can't have somebody killed?" she called him "Bill." I wonder if he was meant to be Trump's attorney general at the time, Bill Barr.

Some critics have described this season as a return to form for the series, but I'm honestly still not feeling it. The dialogue is somewhat sharper and the characters more vibrant than they've been in a while, but it's all in service of a plot that just has the overpopulated cast clanging together in different combinations and then scattering again. There's no real sense of momentum—certainly nothing as sharply defined as, say, Lester's slow moral descent in season 1.

[Dewey Decimate]

Munch's uncaging of the tiger is the kind of scene that makes my heart sing and my fist pump.

I'm curious to see how Little Boy Blind is going to figure into the conclusion.

[Irlandesa]

33 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Some critics have described this season as a return to form for the series, but I'm honestly still not feeling it.

This is kind of where I am too.  There are some limited series that I think should have 10 episodes instead of a common 8 and there are some that get 10 where 8 would have sufficed.  That's where I am with this season.  I was actually enjoying it but it started to slow down and 2 full episodes on Roy's ranch is too much.  And they're still not done.  Heck, even with 8 they would have had room for the puppet ep.

I'm liking it better than 3 and 4 but it's nowhere near 1 or 2 for me.

[Starchild]

15 minutes ago, Dewey Decimate said:

I'm curious to see how Little Boy Blind is going to figure into the conclusion.

I'm inclined to feel sorry for him. Then I remember what he's done.

[possibilities]

WHY did Dot leave the gun outside, when she went into the grave? That just seemed incredibly careless and way out of character.

[aghst]

Plus there’s lye down there.

Roy instantly picked the two likeliest places but there are tunnels under the little cabin she was shackled in?

That ranch has low fencing and 40 or so weekend warriors can’t cover it, especially with the sudden fog that appeared.  Ole just walked onto the ranch with Gator on the end of a stick or rope.

Dot could easily have slipped out of the premises but now she’s going to seek justice herself because Much told her the Tiger is free?  She forgot Indira telling her not to engage.

She sneaks into the big house to call Wayne instead of the police?  Then the showdown with Karen, which goes as one expected.  Karen will blame Dot for her horrible marriage than Roy so Dot gives her a shiner to match the one Roy had given her.

Roy has a certain poetic way to express this showdown though in the twisted way of the militia mentality.  Says he felt most about Dot than anyone else, then orders her execution.

I’d be surprised if there’s a big shootout, doesn’t seem like it would be Hawley’s style.  Instead Dot is probably going to get a chance at revenge.

But that could end up tragically because Witt warned the special forces guys not to kill Dot, who could be armed and the special forces leader said “don’t kill the hostage” in the least reassuring way.

[thuganomics85]

The choice of using YMCA for when Roy was rallying the troops really was the chef kiss.  They and those like them really think they are the shit, but are just easy manipulated fools, who will likely fall hard once they get a taste of real opposition.

Not surprised Dot found a way out and managed to stay one step ahead through most of it.  Definitely think it was a case of her knowing the ins and outs of this ranch that gave her an edge (especially since Roy probably has beyond underestimated her.)  Curious to see if she will get her revenge and if she will come out ahead.  Hard to tell: I can see her getting that happy ending or I can see some of her previous actions eventually coming back to haunt her.

Lorraine might sell herself as a ruthless, heartless boss who even has the "orange man" under her thumb, but I think her reaction to Danish's fate and concern for Dot was sincere.  I think she is someone who does care for those loyal to her and the loss of her confidant; probably someone who was close to her in ways others aren't; would hurt her to the core.  Jennifer Jason Leigh continues to be fantastic here.

Munch proves his worth as the wildcard!  Blinds Gator AND pops in to save Dot when all seemed lost because he wants her to be free to fight and not caged.  Trying to kill him after the initial failed kidnapping attempt might have been Roy's biggest mistake that will lead to his downfall.

[TakomaSnark]

6 hours ago, Dev F said:

And when she was complaining to the unseen person on the phone, "Now, honestly, what's the point of being a billionaire if I can't have somebody killed?" she called him "Bill." I wonder if he was meant to be Trump's attorney general at the time, Bill Barr.

Some critics have described this season as a return to form for the series, but I'm honestly still not feeling it. The dialogue is somewhat sharper and the characters more vibrant than they've been in a while, but it's all in service of a plot that just has the overpopulated cast clanging together in different combinations and then scattering again. There's no real sense of momentum—certainly nothing as sharply defined as, say, Lester's slow moral descent in season 1.

I'm torn. I would put it up there with S1 and S2 but with the caveat that this is a much more narrow plot focus than either of those and it does suffer a bit from a 'treading water' feeling because there is not that much else going on in the foreground. I think in prior seasons, Richa Moorjani and Lamorne Morris' characters would have felt far more vital than they've ended up here, in stretches where - well, where were they?? (which disappoints me).

Still, I am pretty astonished that a season of Fargo has become a tightly focused study of domestic violence. Even though DV has always been a factor in the Fargo universe, it has never - at least to me  - taken it so seriously as the main plotline. The dialogue about the true meaning of a witch hunt was marvellous to hear.

 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Another ep chock full of required suspension of disbelief.  The one I'll mention is the time between Bowman's discovery that Dot had flown the coop and the time that this was made known to anyone else.  It was seemingly forever.  A ton of stuff happened in the meantime.  No way in Hades that Bowman would have risked the wrath of Roy by delaying such information.  He was not responsible in any way for her escape.  The only way he would catch hell is if he were to screw up finding her, in which he would have had plenty of help.

The delay in Bowman firing the rifle to kill Dot was ridiculous.  At least there was no Bondian villain pithiness about it.

It was nice to see Indira looking quite the professional.  Yet, other than knowing the specifics of the Tillman case, it was obvious she was in way over her head as Lorraine's Director of Security.  With the end of Danish, Lorraine can't afford an intern running point. 

I'm more than fine with Munch blinding Gator and returning him to Roy with that speech.  I couldn't understand why blinding was the equivalent of cleaving off hands.  That dude could actually do said cleaving.  I loved Roy's coldblooded words to Gator. The juxtaposition of that and Lorraine's declared acceptance of Dot as a "daughter" was great stuff.

Once again, we see Wayne being perfectly sharp witted.  

Hawley has well set up any number of scenarios for the demise of Roy.  Who administers the coup de grace?  Will it be Dot?  Gator?  Daddy-in-law?  Witt?  I think I would put a quid on Roy ultimately taking the coward's way out (suicide).

[TakomaSnark]

14 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Hawley has well set up any number of scenarios for the demise of Roy.  Who administers the coup de grace?  Will it be Dot?  Gator?  Daddy-in-law?  Witt?  I think I would put a quid on Roy ultimately taking the coward's way out (suicide).

Or he doesn't demise at all. He goes down, self-pitying, in prison, with only 'patriots' claiming he is a hostage.

[DMK]

When Third Time’s the Charm was pontificating about Dot’s linens and fripperies still being around, I was waiting for Dot to point out that it was all Linda’s old stuff. 

Figures that Dad of Third Time’s the Charm is having issues with Roy, but not over the giant shiner his daughter is sporting. Dad of the Year, that one. 

[Raja]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

Dot could easily have slipped out of the premises but now she’s going to seek justice herself because Much told her the Tiger is free?  She forgot Indira telling her not to engage.

Tiger's aren't social animals, they go their own way.

10 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

And Lorraine's heart grew three sizes that day. I loved Dot getting choked up about it.

"No daughter of mine gets stopped on the one yard line" I've got to use that one.

[iMonrey]

12 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The real life parallels are about as subtle as an explosion.

I freeze-framed Roy's website while he was live streaming so I could see the comments down the side of it. I don't want to get in trouble by posting anything political, but as you might guess, they are all typical of the sorts of things you would see on any right-wing website. They are not being subtle. 

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

WHY did Dot leave the gun outside, when she went into the grave? That just seemed incredibly careless and way out of character.

That drove me nuts. It was the one idiot-plot moment in an otherwise well crafted episode. 

I'm tempted to say Lorraine sees Dot more as her property than she does as a daughter. It would explain why she didn't simply hand her over to Roy to begin with and be rid of her, aside from refusing to give Roy any kind of win. In many ways she and Roy are two sides of the same coin.

But after she saw the photos of Dot in the hospital, and after seeing the "real" Dot standing up for herself, I'm inclined to concede she has some respect for her after all. Kind of like how Indira stood up to her and got offered a job as a result.

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

Some critics have described this season as a return to form for the series, but I'm honestly still not feeling it.

That's weird because it's the only season I've really, really liked. I was just lukewarm about 1 and 2, hated 3 and didn't even watch 4. I guess it just depends on what you want out of a show. {shrugs}

[TakomaSnark]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

That's weird because it's the only season I've really, really liked. I was just lukewarm about 1 and 2, hated 3 and didn't even watch 4. I guess it just depends on what you want out of a show. {shrugs}

Wow, I'd love to hear more about why you were lukewarm on the first two.

[The Wild Sow]

9 hours ago, aghst said:

She sneaks into the big house to call Wayne instead of the police?

Roy is the police around there!

[aghst]

47 minutes ago, The Wild Sow said:

Roy is the police around there!

State police, federal police.

Also, another example on whether Gator is going to be redeemed, he offered under age girls to Munch.

Maybe he was making things up to save himself.

But a rural sheriff's dept has that much drugs and guns?  Or Gator was overvaluing the contraband in the sheriff's dept. evidence locker?

 

[Crashcourse]

I took a leave of absence watching this, but decided to watch the final two episodes to see how this mess ends.

There were two things that cracked me up and that's all:  1) the YMCA song and 2) Dad? 

[TakomaSnark]

Lamorne Morris and  Richa Moorjani  have been tragically underserved this season but I have now watched this episode four times since it premiered. It is insanley powerful.

[tennisgurl]

This show has always had great music, but playing YMCA as Roy's militia buddies all drove in was a stroke of genius. Its basically the musical equivalent of hiring the three guys to act like Roy and watch him throw a fit, the thing guys like that hate the most is not being taken seriously. That's why I think Roy's ultimate fate will not be going down in a blaze of glory like he imagines, it will be going to jail where he's just another antonymous inmate. 

Gator has clearly done a lot of horrible things and the sweet kid he was is clearly gone, but with a father like Roy to raise him, he never really had a chance. He's just so pathetic and stupid I find myself feeling some pity for him, especially as he was crying for his father and Roy just coldly left him. Not that Roy is anywhere near as smart as he thinks he is, it looks like his father in law is the real brains of the operation while Roy is the useful idiot he can use to put a respectable face on things. 

Roy as a character might as well just be a list of far right talking points the writers found on Twitter wearing a cowboy hat, but Jon Hamm is playing the hell out of him. 

Lorraine apparently calling the president of the United States to have a guy assassinated is such a wild flex. "What's the point of being a billionaire if you cant have people killed?" I think Lorraine does care about the people in her inner circle in her own way, she really did seem upset by Danish's fate despite how poorly she treated him and she even called Dot her daughter, even if I can imagine this wont turn everything around and make their family Christmas less awkward. 

Munch pulling the tiger out of her cage was amazing, although I was really confused by Dot leaving her first gun behind, that doesn't seem like her at all. Possibly the dumbest thing Roy has ever done was double cross Munch, he's goin to be the real wildcard here.

[peeayebee]

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

WHY did Dot leave the gun outside, when she went into the grave? That just seemed incredibly careless and way out of character.

I'm cutting her some slack. She was literally running for her life. She couldn't see in the fog but heard a man whistle. She just knew she had to hide herself, and when she exposes the "grave" the stench practically overwhelms her. I dont' blame her for forgetting the rifle -- which, btw, she dropped several feet away -- and hurrying down the ladder.

BTW, I watched with CC on, and just before Dot climbed out of the hole, CC said, "Bone clatters." So it seems Dot grabbed a bone to defend herself with. Of course that wouldn't have gotten her far, but I liked that she looks anywhere for a weapon.

12 hours ago, aghst said:

Roy instantly picked the two likeliest places but there are tunnels under the little cabin she was shackled in?

I didn't think there were tunnels under the shack. I thought it was just a raised floor, and she dropped to the dirt, crawling underneath the shack. 

The dugout that Roy entered -- Was that another body inside? Oh, and after he turns on the lights he says, "Just in case." What do you think he meant by that?

 

9 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Another ep chock full of required suspension of disbelief.  The one I'll mention is the time between Bowman's discovery that Dot had flown the coop and the time that this was made known to anyone else.  It was seemingly forever.  A ton of stuff happened in the meantime. 

IIRC, after Bowman discovers that Dot/Nadine is missing, when we next see him talking to Roy, it seems like Roy was already aware of Dot's disappearance. Bowman and his men had been searching all this time. Bowman obviously informed Roy that she's gone, and Roy tells Bowman to check the "grave." 

Quote

I'm more than fine with Munch blinding Gator and returning him to Roy with that speech.  I couldn't understand why blinding was the equivalent of cleaving off hands.  That dude could actually do said cleaving. 

This is what Munch said: "When a man gives with one hand and takes with the other, he breaks his promise. He must be taught. The hand he steals with must be cleaved from him and returned. Still a hand but now without function. Here is your hand." So when he's talking about a hand, that means Gator as Roy's hand. I suppose he could have cut off Gator's hands, but I think blinding him makes Gator even more useless for Roy. The useless hand.

It was very satisfying seeing Munch collect his debt. AND get away with it. AND free Dot. 

Loved Lorraine's conversation with Dot, esp when she referred to her as her daughter.

 

Edited January 10 by peeayebee

[iMonrey]

6 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

The dugout that Roy entered -- Was that another body inside? Oh, and after he turns on the lights he says, "Just in case." What do you think he meant by that?

I wondered about that too. It appeared to be the body of a dead animal, possibly a dog. Moreover, as the camera panned over it, there seemed to be some sort of super-imposed image on the screen of someone's face, like some sort of weird spectral form. Did you catch that? I rewound to see if I was just imagining things. 

[DMK]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I'm cutting her some slack. She was literally running for her life. She couldn't see in the fog but heard a man whistle. She just knew she had to hide herself, and when she exposes the "grave" the stench practically overwhelms her. I dont' blame her for forgetting the rifle -- which, btw, she dropped several feet away -- and hurrying down the ladder.

BTW, I watched with CC on, and just before Dot climbed out of the hole, CC said, "Bone clatters." So it seems Dot grabbed a bone to defend herself with. Of course that wouldn't have gotten her far, but I liked that she looks anywhere for a weapon.

Furthermore, Dot was sleep deprived, beaten up, spent the night in the freezing cold… she looks like hell. Her eyes are all red rimmed. Her history shows she’s usually smarter than leaving her rifle behind but considering the circumstances, nobody’s perfect. 

As for the bone, Dot was holding a femur like a baseball bat when Roy’s flunkies opened the lid of the grave. 

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Gator has clearly done a lot of horrible things and the sweet kid he was is clearly gone, but with a father like Roy to raise him, he never really had a chance. He's just so pathetic and stupid I find myself feeling some pity for him, especially as he was crying for his father and Roy just coldly left him.

Yeah, I feel really bad for what Gator could’ve been. He was a sweet kid and he was permanently ruined by Roy. 

[bosawks]

Of course Gator has a flame thrower and if I needed any further proof that Wayne was a good father Scotty eating a bag of Tate’s straight from the store cinched it.

[Starchild]

55 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I wondered about that too. It appeared to be the body of a dead animal, possibly a dog. Moreover, as the camera panned over it, there seemed to be some sort of super-imposed image on the screen of someone's face, like some sort of weird spectral form. Did you catch that? I rewound to see if I was just imagining things. 

I saw that too. I've been hoping someone here gets what it means lol

[aghst]

If Gators blinding is a fake out and he somehow plays a pivotal role in Roy’s capture or demise, they may still be pursuing a redemption arc.

still doubtful that alone would redeem all the awful things he’s done and would do, unless he saves Dot in the finale.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I wondered about that too. It appeared to be the body of a dead animal, possibly a dog. Moreover, as the camera panned over it, there seemed to be some sort of super-imposed image on the screen of someone's face, like some sort of weird spectral form. Did you catch that? I rewound to see if I was just imagining things. 

I will need to rewatch. First off, I thought it looked like a person -- It's the dugout. Isn't that where ranch hands sleep? Second, I didn't catch any superimposed face. Like I said, I need to rewatch. Which isn't a bad thing!

[bosawks]

Either Munch is getting less crazy and making more sense or I’m getting more crazy because I’m getting everything he’s throwing down lately. 
 

[LadyintheLoop]

Quote

Yeah, I feel really bad for what Gator could’ve been. He was a sweet kid and he was permanently ruined by Roy. 

And he thought his mother had chosen to abandon him. You could see how conflicted he was when Dot told him she hadn't wanted to go.

Did Munch bring the fog?

[odonnellkb]

In the dugout it’s the dead animal Munch killed in an earlier episode and smeared the blood on Roy’s daughter’s wall.  I wasn’t sure where Munch was where killed the animal until this episode.  It was Munch’s face superimposed in this episode for a moment in the dugout. 
 

I think Roy really smacked of misogyny and awfulness and that’s why Lorraine wouldn’t lose to him earlier and hand over Dot.  Now it’s a lot more about family and respect.

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wondered about that too. It appeared to be the body of a dead animal, possibly a dog. Moreover, as the camera panned over it, there seemed to be some sort of super-imposed image on the screen of someone's face, like some sort of weird spectral form. Did you catch that? I rewound to see if I was just imagining things. 

I just rewatched that scene. Yes, there's definitely a face superimposed over it. I can't tell, but I wonder if it's Linda. It's definitely a woman's face, either dead or at least beaten. So could that body be hers? I replayed the scene a few times, and I just can make out if the body is animal or human.

ETA: I was just checking on Reddit. This is what someone says:

Quote

It was a flashback to when Munch performed the ceremony where he covered himself in mud before going into the Tillman house. Roy went into the dugout and was finding the evidence, and It overlayed Munch’s mud covered face as a reminder

I would never have come up with this. So is the form on the ground actually the fur and so forth that Munch was wearing?

Edited January 11 by peeayebee

[Bannon]

No, it's not the most tightly plotted story,.and it's horizon's aren't as broad as some other seasons, but the acting is really, really, good. I'd order the seasons right now at 2 in the top spot, 1 and this season tied for 2nd, then 4 and 3 roughly tied, well  behind the other three.

[Tatum]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'd order the seasons right now at 2 in the top spot, 1 and this season tied for 2nd, then 4 and 3 roughly tied, well  behind the other three.

OT, but thank you!! You are the only person (that I know of) that agrees with me that S2 was superior to S1. And those that like S2 credit it to Ted Danson mostly, but I will die on the hill that Kirsten Dunst was the MVP of that season, with Nick Offerman, Zahn McClarnon, Jean Smart, and Jeffrey Donovan providing a whole lot of support. Just an all around stellar cast and chemistry. I mean, it's hard to even single out the ones I did above- everyone was on point. I actually also really liked S3. Took awhile to hit it's stride, but once it did, it really did, at least for me.

 

I am finding Lorraine's "daughter" pep talk to Dot a bit of a plot contrivance-like  2 weeks earlier she was trying to pay her to leave. I understand she knows more about Dot's background now and has grudging respect for what Dot has survived (and in some cases outsmarted), but she had close to ten years to grow some kind of affection for Dot which evidently didn't take.

 

I thought it was a body of a farm animal in the dugout. I'll have to go back and look. I thought Roy had hidden a gun along the door jamb and was grabbing it when he said 'just in case' but I will have to rewatch for that as well.

 

ETA: I rewatched, and I did see the superimposed face, which seemed to turn into a decomposing skull. I can't believe that Roy would just leave a human body like that though- that does not seem practical at all. As far as the just in case, he definitely reaches up into the door jamb and you hear a clattering sound, but upon rewatch, I don't think he takes anything out. I think he unlocked the door and left the lock hanging off the door jamb- purposely leaving it unlocked, either to entice someone into the dugout, or potentially let someone out from the other end. Very strange.

 

I wish we had gotten just a little more of Wayne and Scotty in general, but I suppose the storyline already had enough packed into it. I adore Wayne's go with the flow attitude towards both his wife and daughter. And I really enjoyed hearing from Dot's perspective in the previous two episodes over how much she loves Wayne.

 

23 hours ago, DMK said:

Figures that Dad of Third Time’s the Charm is having issues with Roy, but not over the giant shiner his daughter is sporting. Dad of the Year, that one. 

He probably agrees with Roy's mini sermon from the second episode that a man is allowed to hit his wife, in "love", to "instruct" her, but I am wondering if he maybe hasn't seen the newest "instruction" on his daughter yet . I am pretty sure she didn't have the black eye in the previous episode. Nonetheless, my expectations for Dad in law are pretty low, even if he does challenge Roy.

 

I wish Karen had come to Dot's side, but it's probably more realistic that she did not. There really would be nowhere for her to go, someone else had her daughters, and there was no reason for her to trust Dot once Dot was off the compound. I actually feel really sorry for her- and not just because of the way Roy treats her. She has probably been told her whole life that she's dumb and weak and her only purpose is to find a strong man to obey and raise his children.

 

I felt sorry for Gator, too, even if his situation is nearly entirely of his own making and he has done a lot of very bad things, and would continue to do them without remorse if it meant Daddy would love him.

[endure]

18 hours ago, aghst said:

State police, federal police.

Also, another example on whether Gator is going to be redeemed, he offered under age girls to Munch.

Maybe he was making things up to save himself.

But a rural sheriff's dept has that much drugs and guns?  Or Gator was overvaluing the contraband in the sheriff's dept. evidence locker?

 

It was through the police that Roy found her again so she would be wary I think.  Did Gator offer Munch the sack of money?

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Tatum said:

OT, but thank you!! You are the only person (that I know of) that agrees with me that S2 was superior to S1. And those that like S2 credit it to Ted Danson mostly, but I will die on the hill that Kirsten Dunst was the MVP of that season, with Nick Offerman, Zahn McClarnon, Jean Smart, and Jeffrey Donovan providing a whole lot of support. Just an all around stellar cast and chemistry. I mean, it's hard to even single out the ones I did above- everyone was on point. I actually also really liked S3. Took awhile to hit it's stride, but once it did, it really did, at least for me.

 

 

The depth of acting talent in S2 was incredible, and was needed to match the breadth of the story; don't forget Cristin Miliotti! My favorite element of that season was the quiet toughness and dignity of a woman facing an early and painful death; that's the real life every day drama that great fiction can illuminate so well.

One element I find this in this season that is distinctly better than season 3 is in the critique of capitalism. I thought season 3 to be cartoonish and silly, whereas this season offers something much more refined. It helps to have a great cast working at a very, very, high level.

[Bannon]

I think there's a chance that Roy is going to use the tunnel leading from the bunker to make his cowardly escape, or attempt to do so, after leading his dumbass followers into a pointless slaughter. It was so consistent that Roy, upon discovering Karen on the floor, doesn't even bother to check if she's still breathing. I generally dislike how 99% of movies and t.v. treat being "knocked out", but in this case it might further illuminate Roy's depravity.

[Tatum]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I think there's a chance that Roy is going to use the tunnel leading from the bunker to make his cowardly escape, or attempt to do so, after leading his dumbass followers into a pointless slaughter. It was so consistent that Roy, upon discovering Karen on the floor, doesn't even bother to check if she's still breathing. I generally dislike how 99% of movies and t.v. treat being "knocked out", but in this case it might further illuminate Roy's depravity.

I noticed that too! Poor Karen. I suppose she's outlived her usefulness to him at this point, and is pretty much interchangeable with any potential subsequent wife, should he live that long to have another one.

 

Roy really is not smart. Even if his militia could hold off the FBI's raid, (which is a big if), he must realize another raid will just come back, this time to the much depleted militia. The FBI isn't going to shrug and say, oh well, we tried, lesson learned I guess. And if he thinks he's going to be seen as a martyr by the "patriots", most of whom he has gotten killed, he really overestimates his importance to the general population.

 

I can easily see him trying to run off alone while using his followers as a distraction, and honestly, I hope he does, and gets away. Having to live a life in exile and shame (anyone with a moral compass will find him reprehensible and his Patriot following will be disgusted by his cowardice, especially after he called people in knowing they would be killed in the name of Patriotism while he ran away) would be a worse fate than any death the FBI or Dot could give him (Lorraine might be sadistic enough to dream up a pretty bad one, but everyone else would just put him down and be done with it).

 

ETA: I can't say I think too highly of the father in law from a strategic point either. At this point, he'd really be doing himself a favor to quietly gather up his own men and leave. There has to be another Roy Tillman out there he can hitch his wagon to who hasn't gone out of his way to antagonize federal law enforcement and risk exposure to illegal activities by kidnapping a wealthy and connected woman. The minute Roy started with his bullshit, Dad should have left. That he is seeing this through and lectures Roy now is just ridiculous.

[Bannon]

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

No, it's not the most tightly plotted story,.and its horizons aren't as broad as some other seasons, but the acting is really, really, good. I'd order the seasons right now at 2 in the top spot, 1 and this season tied for 2nd, then 4 and 3 roughly tied, well  behind the other three.

 

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

No, it's not the most tightly plotted story,.and it's horizon's aren't as broad as some other seasons, but the acting is really, really, good. I'd order the seasons right now at 2 in the top spot, 1 and this season tied for 2nd, then 4 and 3 roughly tied, well  behind the other three.

Great acting is maybe of number one importance to me. I'm enjoying the acting this season. My biggest problem with the previous season was that Chris Rock was completely miscast.

2 hours ago, Tatum said:

As far as the just in case, he definitely reaches up into the door jamb and you hear a clattering sound, but upon rewatch, I don't think he takes anything out. I think he unlocked the door and left the lock hanging off the door jamb- purposely leaving it unlocked, either to entice someone into the dugout, or potentially let someone out from the other end. Very strange.

Thanks. I'll have to rewatch that. I completely missed whatever Roy was doing other than turning on the lights. I think I'll also rewatch the ep part where Munch goes to the ranch and kills some of Roy's guys.

[iMonrey]

13 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Quote

It was a flashback to when Munch performed the ceremony where he covered himself in mud before going into the Tillman house. Roy went into the dugout and was finding the evidence, and It overlayed Munch’s mud covered face as a reminder

This is the one aspect of the season I don't like and find completely unnecessary. Ole Munch. He's one ingredient too many. The story just doesn't need him and he really doesn't fit either. He feels shoehorned in there just because Noah Hawley insists there be some kind of weird, supernatural badass on every season. 

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is the one aspect of the season I don't like and find completely unnecessary. Ole Munch. He's one ingredient too many. The story just doesn't need him and he really doesn't fit either. He feels shoehorned in there just because Noah Hawley insists there be some kind of weird, supernatural badass on every season. 

THANK YOU! Are we supposed to like Munch because he has some standards? It’s not working for me; he’s still a killer and if he hadn’t moved himself into that poor woman’s house, she’d still be alive.

[peeayebee]

I'm loving Munch. I think the actor is great, and the way he talks is unique and interesting. 

I don't get the complaint that he's unnecessary. He was hired by Roy to kidnap Dot, and that set up the storyline for the whole season. And then there was the part he played in Gator's story. Gator wanted to impress his dad and then wanted revenge on Munch, but that didn't work out, and eventually Munch kidnapped HIM, blinded him, and returned him to Gator's unloving father. I'm sure we're not done with Gator's story yet.

[Crashcourse]

Even if they needed someone in the story to kidnap Dot and mess with Gator and Roy, they could have picked a more interesting, different type of character with a different backstory than some old medieval dirtbag like Ole Munch.