S17.E05: Take Me Down to Paradise City

[Emma Snyder]

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The newlywed couples head to Cancun, Mexico, to start their honeymoon; sandy beaches and the clear ocean water help set the tone as they try to grow their connection to last a lifetime; one couple must overcome a roadblock.

Airs Wednesday November 15 at 8:00PM EST.

[Crashcourse]

None of these couples are fun or interesting to watch.

Oh, and I don't need to see Orion and Lauren in the tub anymore. 😬

[VioletNevermind]

The music that plays between scenes continues to be horrible.  It just cannot be “real” music.  To ease the pain of listening to it, I like to imagine Dr. Pepper and Pastor Cal recording it together in a sound booth while holding hands.

I’m terrible with names, so the couples’ names don’t sink in until at least week four . . .

Tall Guy and Short Woman: I would bet my next two paychecks that they will not work out.  I think she looks down upon him and he is pushing way too hard for physical intimacy when she is clearly not ready- and I don’t think she’ll ever be ready.  

Health Issues Woman and Baseball Cap: Their conversation about finances at breakfast revealed just how different they are as people.  She doesn’t seem ready for a relationship of this magnitude.  I’m impressed by how understanding he is about her medical issues.  I think they could make it work, but I’m not at all convinced yet.  It’s easy to feel so lovey-dovey when you’re on a free vacation in paradise.

Emily and Husband: It won’t work out.  That’s all I have on them.

Lauren and Orion (I remembered their names somehow): I find him a bit annoying for reasons I can’t really explain.  I cringed all the way through their discussion at the end.  He took that way too far.  Lauren tried her best to be diplomatic and bring that conversation back from the brink, but he just would not let up.  Taking into account the preview for next week, I can’t imagine they’ll work out. 

(Also, why am I seeing Clint on my screen again?! 😡)

Edited November 16, 2023 by VioletNevermind

[Elizzikra]

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Health Issues Woman and Baseball Cap: Their conversation about finances at breakfast revealed just how different they are as people.  She doesn’t seem ready for a relationship of this magnitude.  I’m impressed by how understanding he is about her medical issues.  I think they could make it work, but I’m not at all convinced yet.  It’s easy to feel so lovey-dovey when you’re on a free vacation in paradise. 

I think there are two different couples.

Becca (Health Issues Woman) and Baseball Cap (Brawny Paper Towel Guy) are very lovey dovey and seem more similar than different. I really like them.

Emily (Never Been in A Relationship Girl) and New York Guy (Brennan?) are the ones who are very different in terms of their handling of money. They are also fairly lovey dovey at this point but I have a feeling that will change.

[VioletNevermind]

1 minute ago, Elizzikra said:

I think there are two different couples.

Becca (Health Issues Woman) and Baseball Cap (Brawny Paper Towel Guy) are very lovey dovey and seem more similar than different. I really like them.

Emily (Never Been in A Relationship Girl) and New York Guy (Brennan?) are the ones who are very different in terms of their handling of money. They are also fairly lovey dovey at this point but I have a feeling that will change.

Ahh, you’re right!  Thank you.  I’m having more trouble than usual remembering names this season because I find these couples really boring!

[Elizzikra]

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Lauren and Orion (I remembered their names somehow): I find him a bit annoying for reasons I can’t really explain.  I cringed all the way through their discussion at the end.  He took that way too far.  Lauren tried her best to bring that conversation back from the brink, but he just would not let up.  Taking into account the preview for next week, I can’t imagine they’ll work out. 

No matter how many times we see them kiss, I just keep seeing two sociologists studying each other's culture rather than two individuals trying to figure out whether or not they should be married.

I think their conversations are really interesting but ... for me, it's too heavy for this show. I'm there for every other topic, large and small for these couples, but discussions about Race and Culture in America are just not what I'm here to watch in my couple of hours of trashy tv for the week.

[kristen111]

Keisha getting on my nerves with her baby talk every fifteen minutes or so.  Calling in for what, I have no idea.  Way to waste time.  Long talk with Orion about colors of skin was too deep and I’m not here for that.

Therapist girl who doesn’t have her degree yet should zip it.  This is your honeymoon, not a therapy session.  She is showing off, but he has it all over her.  He’s no dummy.

It’s not known yet, so why is Becca talking about having children?

New York guy is all about money.  He wants to live beneath his means.  Too bad for her.

 

[Real4real]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

No matter how many times we see them kiss, I just keep seeing two sociologists studying each other's culture rather than two individuals trying to figure out whether or not they should be married.

This!

How many shots did Major Party Girl and New York do??  Seemed like A LOT with so little actual food 😵

[nichelle]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

No matter how many times we see them kiss, I just keep seeing two sociologists studying each other's culture rather than two individuals trying to figure out whether or not they should be married.

I think their conversations are really interesting but ... for me, it's too heavy for this show. I'm there for every other topic, large and small for these couples, but discussions about Race and Culture in America are just not what I'm here to watch in my couple of hours of trashy tv for the week.

I hear ya. I think their conversations are pretty healthy. As a minority, I’d absolutely be covering such topics as they impact relationships and life. Hopefully, they show other aspects of their relationship that are less heavy.

[LennieBriscoe]

(Tall Guy and Short Woman) I now heartily dislike badgering, argumentative, superior attitude, word-twisting, therapy-worshipping Claire. STHU! 

Run, Cam! She'll be analyzing and questioning your every word if you stay married! 

And Claire is shady. "And you....fix bikes." Making Cameron defend and explain his love of the unique engineering and human components to "fixing bikes."

Run farther, Cam! This dame is never going to be okay with your not being a degreed "professional." Think of her snark at your expense at future social events. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by LennieBriscoe

[LennieBriscoe]

Re: Race, Lauren, and Orion.

Okay, there's  a world of difference, to me, in intent between using the "N" word and using the expression "going off the reservation." Orion needs to stop calling people "ignorant," even if they are. At least, not these other couples who are his social  group for now. They're here for enjoyment and romance, not for lessons in sociology, anthropology, history, or politics (and I am a fan of all those subjects, but time and place, Orion; time and place). Awkward, even with Lauren. (Next week's "No sex" clip from him was certainly  a cliff-hanger!)

 

 

 

[Empress1]

I’m pro-therapy but Clare badgering Cameron about why he doesn’t go left a really bad taste in my mouth. She also seems to look down on trades. I don’t really like either of them but I like her less. Also, she and her acid-washed baggy jean shorts did not need to be talking shit about Cameron’s swim trunks.

7 hours ago, nichelle said:

I hear ya. I think their conversations are pretty healthy. As a minority, I’d absolutely be covering such topics as they impact relationships and life. Hopefully, they show other aspects of their relationship that are less heavy.

Agree. I see their conversations as necessary, as necessary as the financial ones.

Speaking of, I’m not remotely surprised that Emily is bad with money. She seems pretty immature for her age.

[starlightlost]

11 hours ago, VioletNevermind said:

To ease the pain of listening to it, I like to imagine Dr. Pepper and Pastor Cal recording it together in a sound booth while holding hands.

This is the visual I needed 🤣 thanks for that

[Retired at last]

I see that many here have already posted what I came here to post. I saw parts of both shows here (in AZ, it doesn't start until 9, so I often fall asleep and wake up later to catch part of the replay. I haven't decided if it is worth recording or not. I think not). I came to the same conclusion - this has been incredibly boring. Yes, some of those conversations would be truly important to have (if these were REAL, UNSCRIPTED couples), but they are not good television to listen to. 

I was trying to decide if there are any women I like. I am thinking that possibly Becca is OK, but none of the others are even a tiny bit pleasant. Emily just wants to party; Lauren is too flat and focused; Clare is just too impressed with herself. She and Cam cannot even begin to communicate and she is too condescending to Cameron, who MIGHT be fun if he had a clue what she wants.

I saw part of the afterparty show and was totally confused - I thought maybe one of the guys did something to his looks, but he reminded me of Clint. Then I heard Rudy Huxtable say Clint. Why was he there???? He's still adorable, but I just didn't get why he was there.

I guess I will try to watch this online because it sounds like things happen next week, so I want to catch the foundation.

I forgot which one of the women has never been in a relationship, but, it could have been any of them the way they seem to me. I still can't understand why so many of these people were selected for this show and matched with the people they were matched with. The only men I recognize are Orion and Cam. The other two I get mixed up. The one with Becca seems very tolerant, but I wonder how long that will last. Especially if he wants to have children. Emily's husband is going to bail when she keeps drinking him under the table and has no clue about living as a real adult.

 

[starlightlost]

11 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I think their conversations are really interesting but ... for me, it's too heavy for this show. I'm there for every other topic, large and small for these couples, but discussions about Race and Culture in America are just not what I'm here to watch in my couple of hours of trashy tv for the week.

Yeah, selfishly, I just want to veg out in front of the tv and not think too deeply while watching this. Realistically, I know these conversations need to happen but I don't want to see it.

 

Also, Orion seems like a very straight guy. Not sexually but like he doesn't let loose and just have fun. Not everything has to be so serious all the time.

[kristen111]

9 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

(Tall Guy and Short Woman) I now heartily dislike badgering, argumentative, superior attitude, word-twisting, therapy-worshipping Claire. STHU! 

Run, Cam! She'll be analyzing and questioning your every word if you stay married! 

And Claire is shady. "And you....fix bikes." Making Cameron defend and explain his love of the unique engineering and human components to "fixing bikes."

Run farther, Cam! This dame is never going to be okay with your not being a degreed "professional." Think of her snark at your expense at future social events. 

They are having a nice dinner and she has to be condescending.  So uncalled for.  I’m liking him more.

[Rightside]

13 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

None of these couples are fun or interesting to watch.

Agree!!

And speaking of not fun or interesting to watch, Keisha needs to go away during the show.  Just keep her on the after show, because I don't watch record and fast forward that.

I think Brennan is going to get tired of Emily!

[Katie111]

Clare is awful.  Her condescending attitude about therapy was ridiculous.   I'm sorry but most straight men in their 20's are not out seeking therapy unless they have strong anxiety or some other diagnosis.  Why is she acting like not being in therapy is some big red flag?  Also, her attitude about his job was disgusting.  He owns his own business.  And I recall in one of the previous episodes he mentioned something about college or university.  So he's not an idiot.  I bet he wishes he was paired with Emily, who at least appears to like to have fun.

As to Emily, everyone seems so down on her but she seems to have a great career.  In fact, everyone refers to her as a bit of a workaholic.  So she likes to go out and have fun on the weekends. I don't see that as a big red flag.  I lived in a major city and we would all go out after work in our twenties and drink.  I think I may have partied more in my twenties than at college, as did most of my friends.  Then I got married, eventually moved to the suburbs and had kids.  I didn't become an alcoholic and am still married and a functioning memeber of society.  I also think her spending habits are normal for someone her age.  She makes money and spends it.  Eventually, she'll start saving more for retirement or kids.  

Orion was a jerk last night.  He was the one that brought up the word.  He acted like she pulled it out and started using it.  She made a very light hearted joke about it.  And explained herself very well that as a marginalized black woman she has to have a thick skin and be able to joke.  Her race is obvious to everyone, his is not, so she deals with this all day, everyday.   I'm sure he is often mistaken for hispanic or even white.  And I don't think Cam meant any disrespect with his reservation comment.  It's a pretty common phrase where I live and I've never heard anyone say it was racist (although I do not live near any native american tribes).  

 

I think these couples seem boring because at least for right now, they all get along pretty well (except Cam and Clare).   As much as we complain about bad matches, they do tend to make for more drama.  

[LennieBriscoe]

2 hours ago, starlightlost said:

Yeah, selfishly, I just want to veg out in front of the tv and not think too deeply while watching this. Realistically, I know these conversations need to happen but I don't want to see it.

 

Also, Orion seems like a very straight guy. Not sexually but like he doesn't let loose and just have fun. Not everything has to be so serious all the time.

You mean Orion doesn't go off the reservation?  😄 😇 I keed, I keed!

Apparently this expression for "deviating from the norm or expected" is now considered racist terminology. I believe this is my first and will definitely be my last usage. So I guess Orion has made a difference!

Edited November 16, 2023 by LennieBriscoe

[Retired at last]

I am watching right now and I have to say that Clare is horrible. She totally ruins their nice dinner. 

[Shauna]

Clare looks waaayyy older than 26 or 27.  I'd add another 10 years to that.

Her make up doesn't help.  Hate the highlighted pieces of hair at the front and really, really hate the overblown lips. 

[Crashcourse]

And Lauren is 30 (or 31?), but she could pass for early 40s.  Orion looks older than 26.  I'd put him in his 30s.  

I think Brennan will regret his "wife for life" thinking before he even knew his bride.  He's probably already hoping Emily says No on Decision Day but I'm guessing she'll say Yes and then he's stuck looking like the bad guy when he says No.  

 

[lh25]

This show was the first time I'd heard anyone talk about a connection between the term "redskin" and scalping.  What research I did online also doesn't find a connection.  Am I missing something?  That was a really heavy conversation, lots there and a lot for a honeymoon.

[StatisticalOutlier]

8 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Also, she and her acid-washed baggy jean shorts did not need to be talking shit about Cameron’s swim trunks.

She complained that the pattern on the sleeves of his rash guard didn't match the pattern of his shorts.  What would she prefer?  A matching rash guard and shorts?  Most men don't do that, and if one did insist on an "outfit," it probably wouldn't be for standing around trying not to fall in the water.

Then again, when I was about Clare's age I was at a baseball game and a friend showed up wearing something like plaid shorts and a striped shirt.  (Much worse than what Cameron had on.)  I made a joke about his interesting fashion choice, and he said, "It covers my nakedness."  That told me!

Fast forward a few decades and when I go windsurfing, all of us look decidedly worse than Cameron, with random stuff on the top and bottom, and a big hat.  Or in my case, a rash guard on top, tights on my legs, AND a shortie wetsuit over all of it.  Oh, and SOCKS with my water shoes to keep the sun off my ankles and the mud out of my shoes. 

But not even I would wear a crocheted top for a water activity, Clare.

4 hours ago, Rightside said:

And speaking of not fun or interesting to watch, Keisha needs to go away during the show.  Just keep her on the after show, because I don't watch record and fast forward that.

No way.  Get her off the aftershow, too.  I watch it just because they sometimes drop an interesting nugget or two, but this episode was too much.

I wanted to throttle Keshia when she was confronting Orion about the conversation.  She asked him if he felt any differently now than he did then, and he said no.  Not acceptable, Orion.  So Keshia proceeded to bitch at him, saying Lauren had given him grace and understanding and she therefore deserved it in return.  She said it wasn't done in malice (but didn't mention the unsettling (to me) guffaw Lauren let out when she said she was looking at his face when the word came up).  Orion said how much the word affects him, how he was having his own internal battles about how to handle the situation, and that they sent the crew away and he went and sat alone for 2-1/2 hours thinking about it, trying to find a way to give Lauren grace.

Keshia interrupts him and talks about how Lauren knows about being marginalized, and she does empathize.  (She's quite the mindreader, that Keshia.)  Orion finally said he doesn't hold it against her and then the drunk girl says no, you absolutely do hold it against her and you showed her absolutely no empathy.

Then fucking Keshia starts in again, saying she feels like he was really shut down and so seated in his feelings about being offended that he no longer connected to Lauren's olive branch. 

So much for the "party" part of "after party."

And for those who wondered, Clint was there as an experienced contestant.  I guess under the theory that those who can't, teach? 

4 hours ago, Katie111 said:

Also, her attitude about his job was disgusting.  He owns his own business.  And I recall in one of the previous episodes he mentioned something about college or university.  So he's not an idiot. 

To borrow a word from Orion, Clare certainly showed some ignorance in arriving at her judgments.  

She told Cameron she was surprised at his balance on his first paddleboarding foray.  He's an accomplished mountainbiker, FFS.  Riding through and over rocks or jumping over obstacles, and riding on an inches-wide sliver of flat trail cut into the side of a mountain.  I'm shocked, shocked that he would have good balance.

Plus he has a master's in mechanical engineering and is using that to do work that he enjoys.  Work that is highly prized by people who spend thousands on their bikes.  His website mentions how many grams of weight a typical repair will add to a bike.  Grams. 

And as I mentioned in another thread, Mr. Outlier is an avid mountainbiker and when I was telling him about Cameron, he said he'd heard there was a guy in Denver who can fix broken carbon frames. 

Maybe Cameron is the biggest jerk in the world, but his job?  Lots of people would kill to have a good and demanding education AND use it to build a bespoke business related to their favorite activity, with customers who  appreciate their work and come with open wallets.

[Empress1]

52 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Then again, when I was about Clare's age I was at a baseball game and a friend showed up wearing something like plaid shorts and a striped shirt.  (Much worse than what Cameron had on.)  I made a joke about his interesting fashion choice, and he said, "It covers my nakedness."  That told me!

I had a third date not long ago with a man who showed up in a paisley shirt (which he’d worn on our first date with plain jeans) and plaid shorts (it was unseasonably warm). It was … something.

53 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

And as I mentioned in another thread, Mr. Outlier is an avid mountainbiker and when I was telling him about Cameron, he said he'd heard there was a guy in Denver who can fix broken carbon frames. 

Maybe Cameron is the biggest jerk in the world, but his job?  Lots of people would kill to have a good and demanding education AND use it to build a bespoke business related to their favorite activity, with customers who  appreciate their work and come with open wallets.

I’m a road cyclist and I love my bike shop - I have a go-to bike shop because they do good work. It’s just a hobby for me, but a good bike mechanic is worth the cost (and bike repair, even just standard maintenance, isn’t cheap). It seems like she looks down on tradespeople. She was saying she admired him for doing what he loves, but I don’t think she does.

[Elizzikra]

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I am watching right now and I have to say that Clare is horrible. She totally ruins their nice dinner. 

That was the strangest conversation. It sounded like she thinks everyone needs to be in therapy all the time. I thought she was really antagonistic.

Quote

Maybe Cameron is the biggest jerk in the world, but his job?  Lots of people would kill to have a good and demanding education AND use it to build a bespoke business related to their favorite activity, with customers who  appreciate their work and come with open wallets.

I have known several people who have careers and businesses in these sort of niche industries and they always have really interesting stories about how they got there. So here’s Cameron, who came from New Zealand, started his own, highly specialized business and Clare has not asked a single question about how that all happened. How did Cameron get from there to here? That would be a much better question in terms of getting to know him instead of “why aren’t you in therapy?"

[Kimboweena]

5 hours ago, lh25 said:

This show was the first time I'd heard anyone talk about a connection between the term "redskin" and scalping.  What research I did online also doesn't find a connection.  Am I missing something?

This is what I found, "While there is absolutely no basis to the frequently (and irresponsibly) repeated claim that the term “Redskins” once referred to the hides of Native Americans which could be exchanged for a bounty, there is something a little unpleasant about the similarity between “coonskin,” “deerskin” and “redskin."  Here is a link to the entire discussion.

https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2013/12/why-is-the-word-redskin-so-offensive/

My husband was a huge Washington Redskins fan, and I find it hard to believe that if "redskins" was THAT offensive the team would have used the name. 

[princelina]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:42 PM, VioletNevermind said:

Lauren and Orion (I remembered their names somehow): I find him a bit annoying for reasons I can’t really explain.  

I can - he's a crybaby asshole.

6 hours ago, lh25 said:

This show was the first time I'd heard anyone talk about a connection between the term "redskin" and scalping.  What research I did online also doesn't find a connection.  Am I missing something?  That was a really heavy conversation, lots there and a lot for a honeymoon.

No - he brought up the word just so he could tell that made-up tale of woe and feel his sads.  I originally thought they'd be a good match because they were both super interested in their "cultures" and claimed they'd enjoy exploring another for their spouse.  But if "interest" means "oversensitive and eager to find offense" then it obviously won't work out at all!  I too chuckled when he asked "redskins?" because it's just not a term people use any more - derogatorily or at all.  I know they did in the past but nowadays it refers to a football team.  And I didn't believe his story either (and couldn't find it on google - what I found said, "At the start of the 18th century, Indians and Europeans rarely mentioned the color of each other's skins.  By midcentury, remarks about skin color and the categorization of peoples by simple color-coded labels (red, white, black) had become commonplace"). His story didn't even make sense - Columbus didn't sail the ocean blue looking for scalps, and scalping was not invented by the "colonizers".

5 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Orion said how much the word affects him, how he was having his own internal battles about how to handle the situation, and that they sent the crew away and he went and sat alone for 2-1/2 hours thinking about it, trying to find a way to give Lauren grace.

Yeah I call bullshit on this too, and whether it's actually true or he just think it makes him sound good - run, Lauren!!! Run like your butt's on fire!!!!!

[lh25]

10 hours ago, Kimboweena said:

This is what I found, "While there is absolutely no basis to the frequently (and irresponsibly) repeated claim that the term “Redskins” once referred to the hides of Native Americans which could be exchanged for a bounty, there is something a little unpleasant about the similarity between “coonskin,” “deerskin” and “redskin."  Here is a link to the entire discussion.

https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2013/12/why-is-the-word-redskin-so-offensive/

 

9 hours ago, princelina said:

No - he brought up the word just so he could tell that made-up tale of woe and feel his sads.  I originally thought they'd be a good match because they were both super interested in their "cultures" and claimed they'd enjoy exploring another for their spouse.  But if "interest" means "oversensitive and eager to find offense" then it obviously won't work out at all!  I too chuckled when he asked "redskins?" because it's just not a term people use any more - derogatorily or at all.  I know they did in the past but nowadays it refers to a football team.  And I didn't believe his story either (and couldn't find it on google - what I found said, "At the start of the 18th century, Indians and Europeans rarely mentioned the color of each other's skins.  By midcentury, remarks about skin color and the categorization of peoples by simple color-coded labels (red, white, black) had become commonplace"). His story didn't even make sense - Columbus didn't sail the ocean blue looking for scalps, and scalping was not invented by the "colonizers".

Thanks both of you for confirming what I had found.  I'm not saying it's not a derogatory term, but his take on it just didn't make sense to me.  And his reaction when she used it was over the top.  He talks about the difference between ignorance and hostility, but doesn't really get/believe it.  Ignorance can often be changed with learning and doesn't have evil intent.

[starlightlost]

Yeah I'm not here for the woke being offended at everything bit. I'm just rolling my eyes. He's a big cry baby and Lauren should run.

[Elizzikra]

14 hours ago, Kimboweena said:

 

My husband was a huge Washington Redskins fan, and I find it hard to believe that if "redskins" was THAT offensive the team would have used the name. 

They changed the name. Daniel Snyder, the asshole (then) owner pushed back greatly and it was a very charged discussion. I”m white so I figure I really don’t get a say in what’s offensive to Native Americans.

The world has used offensive names for things for a long time and they don’t change until someone speaks up. Around here we have roads and schools and tons of things named after General Robert E. Lee and have only started changing them in the past several years. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Elizzikra

[Rightside]

On 11/16/2023 at 3:57 PM, Crashcourse said:

I think Brennan will regret his "wife for life" thinking before he even knew his bride.  He's probably already hoping Emily says No on Decision Day but I'm guessing she'll say Yes and then he's stuck looking like the bad guy when he says No.  

 

 Nothing bad about her Emily but I think Brennan will lose interest in her.

[Lindz]

Becca lost me when she told Austin not to pull out her chair, "F the patriarchy." 🤨 Um. No. It's being a kind, caring gentleman. 😒 Clare probably would've found it nice.

[Lindz]

I don't even understand how C&C & L&O's conversations went left. How'd she go from him not interested in going to therapy to asking if things he deserve just come to him. HUHHH??? I would've thought she'd ask about winning her over/working to get her versus just thinking he's got her already because they're married, but no, it was general or is the implication that therapy gets you where you want to go? 🧐 I don't know what Cam was talking about being there for opportunities. WHAT??? Anyway, feels like Orion set up Lauren given he said the word. Black people don't look to say terms offensive to Native Americans. Why'd Lauren even bring up that topic in the first place?? Saying a word isn't the worst thing, how it's used is what really matters. WHY did Orion CHOOSE to be upset??? Because she laughed? I'll pass on that behavior, I don't deal with people going negative... How have they already run out of things to talk about that Cam & Orion ask what Clare & Lauren want to know?!!! COME ON!!! I don't recall any couple ever defining cheating, maybe it wasn't aired, but I think that should definitely be discussed before hypothetical children. 🙄

Edited November 17, 2023 by Lindz

[Lindz]

Of course Cam would be all over the sex topic with the couples. A little too excited. Idk where that's coming from when they're in last place & he knows it. Wish they excluded that L&O hammock chat. Glad he didn't ask her the same or it was cut. 🙈 Orion asked to watch Lauren "put" her edges down. First the bonnet, now the edges. 🤣🤣

[Elizzikra]

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Becca lost me when she told Austin not to pull out her chair, "F the patriarchy." 🤨 Um. No. It's being a kind, caring gentleman. 😒 Clare probably would've found it nice.

I don't think she told him not to pull out her chair. I think he started to apologize for not pulling out her chair and she waved it off. It struck me as something she did and said so that he wouldn't feel like he'd been rude.

Yes, Clare would have loved that. I don't care if someone doesn't pull out my chair but when someone does I always say thank you. 

[seacliffsal]

I found it interesting when Lauren talked about how she doesn't believe in gender roles except that she expected men to bring up finances as she would not and that she expected them to (help) support her.  So, no gender roles until there are?  I also think that Lauren and Orion kind of 'show off' to the others by their PDAs, etc. 

I don't think I would even want Clare as a friend as she seems really judgemental about status (and I have a doctorate so she can stop it with her 'Masters' superiority).  I really think Cameron is confused by her continual 'picking' and comments.  Continual comments that are demeaning are not 'funny' as she may be thinking.  He has a Masters just as she does and has a great job/business-especially in the Denver area.

[LennieBriscoe]

The  FL team is now the Washington Commanders.

Scalping was indeed originated in the New World by the indigenous peoples, according to research published in "Anerican Heritage." Europeans witnessed scalping, with no French or English "bounties." 

https://www.americanheritage.com/who-invented-scalping

Edited November 18, 2023 by LennieBriscoe

[After7Only]

On 11/16/2023 at 8:38 AM, starlightlost said:

Yeah, selfishly, I just want to veg out in front of the tv and not think too deeply while watching this. Realistically, I know these conversations need to happen but I don't want to see it.

I’m sure Lauren and Orion would love not to have to have these conversations as well 🙂.  But for many interracial couples they are necessary.      Just like it was necessary for pink hair girl to have the conversation about her health with brawny paper towel dude.  I appreciate hearing both conversations.  Both are important dynamics to their relationship journey

[Elizzikra]

4 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

The  FL team is now the Washington Commanders.

DC, not FL. I wish they’d kept the interim name, “Washington Football Club.” 

3 hours ago, After7Only said:

I’m sure Lauren and Orion would love not to have to have these conversations as well 🙂.  But for many interracial couples they are necessary.      Just like it was necessary for pink hair girl to have the conversation about her health with brawny paper towel dude.  I appreciate hearing both conversations.  Both are important dynamics to their relationship journey

I completely agree that L & O’s conversations are necessary… I just don’t want to see them. This is my fluff tv, not my serious, intellectual tv. I don’t like them to mix, much as I don’t like the green beans to touch the mashed potatoes at Thanksgiving dinner.

[Crashcourse]

22 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

much as I don’t like the green beans to touch the mashed potatoes at Thanksgiving dinner.

Yes, an abomination!

[LennieBriscoe]

Ha! I didn't mean "FL team"; that was supposed  to be "NFL team"!  

[princelina]

4 hours ago, After7Only said:

I’m sure Lauren and Orion would love not to have to have these conversations as well 🙂.  But for many interracial couples they are necessary.      

My nit to pick is with how Orion did it - he deliberately brought up a term that's obsolete and when she was confused and made a little joke about his sunburn he gave her an untrue story about the term to make her feel bad, and then, according to his own testimony on Afterparty, sulked about it for 2.5 hours "trying to find grace for her."  It seems like he set her up to learn a lesson, whereas when she initiated the conversation she was not doing the same to him.

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, princelina said:

My nit to pick is with how Orion did it - he deliberately brought up a term that's obsolete and when she was confused and made a little joke about his sunburn he gave her an untrue story about the term to make her feel bad, and then, according to his own testimony on Afterparty, sulked about it for 2.5 hours "trying to find grace for her."  It seems like he set her up to learn a lesson, whereas when she initiated the conversation she was not doing the same to him.

I don’t think it’s an untrue story; there was a lot of testimony from Native Americans during the whole debate about changing the DC football team’s name about why it’s a derogatory and offensive term.

More information here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_controversy

Edited November 19, 2023 by Elizzikra

[princelina]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

I don’t think it’s an untrue story; there was a lot of testimony from Native Americans during the whole debate about changing the DC football team’s name about why it’s a derogatory and offensive term.

More information here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_controversy

This article as well as the one posted above point out that Orion's take is "controversial" at best, and again - while it may have been a derogatory term in the past it is just not used today in any way, other than football teams.  (And potatoes.). For Orion to ask her if she'd ever used the term was silly, and IMO intended to start a conversation that lectured her and made her feel bad for no reason.  And then he presumably left her alone on their honeymoon for 2 and a half hours to cry about it.  I think he was being a jerk and I don't like him any more.

[Yeah No]

Cameron is a little socially clueless but Clare is a snob.  She wants to think she's better than Cameron because he fixes bikes.  She is drinking some self importance Kool Aid that being a therapist makes her better than him.  Haha, not that I want to descend to her level, but I could out snob her on that basis if I wanted to.  First of all, she's not even finished with a Master of Arts degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling at U of Colorado Denver.  I have a Master of Science in Counseling Psychology, (usually the MS is considered preferable) at what I would say is a better school.  So neener-neener, Clare.  😛

But what school she went to and what degree she got wouldn't even matter if she wasn't also showing herself to be a self-important snob that doesn't know the first thing about being a therapist!  The way she was acting with Cameron was so immature it totally pissed me off!  First of all, she wasn't even listening to what he was saying.  Cameron was only saying that he likes to be open to and make the most of the opportunities that come his way.  He wasn't also saying he didn't actively seek out opportunities, just that he was open to the ones that crossed his path.  How short sighted of her not to understand that and instead jump right in to accuse him of not actively seeking opportunities!  Then she says she's totally different than him.  She doesn't even know him and already she is projecting stuff on him that he didn't even say.  She is already sabotaging the relationship!   She was projecting her own negative judgment of him on what he was saying and proceeding on that basis before really having enough information to make that judgment.  And then to boot, acting like she knew him better than he did.  She will make a HORRIBLE therapist. 

Listening is THE most important skill for a therapist and she doesn't even know how to do that.  I hate to say that I have to wonder about any degree program that produced someone that unable to engage in the most important skill necessary for the job.  She never would have gotten very far in my program.  The head of my program would have spotted someone like that right away and I saw several people drop out because of stuff like that.  I hate to be a snob about it myself but the sad truth is that a lot of programs these days are not up to the level of the one I graduated from over 30 years ago and it's one of the reasons most of the therapists I encounter in my own life don't impress me very much.

[JenE4]

On 11/16/2023 at 5:22 PM, lh25 said:

This show was the first time I'd heard anyone talk about a connection between the term "redskin" and scalping.  What research I did online also doesn't find a connection.  Am I missing something?  That was a really heavy conversation, lots there and a lot for a honeymoon.

I also didn’t know that “redskin” may refer to scalping. That’s horrific. I assumed it was a derogatory way to categorize “color” of skin, specifically to differentiate undertones of brown, as Black, and, though all racist, red for indigenous peoples as the just as terrible yellow for Asian people. I vaguely even recall being taught a song in Girl Scouts back in the 80s that was supposed to be some anthem of inclusivity that talked about all of the colors of the world, giving shoutouts to people who are brown, black, yellow, red, and white. We were also taught “not to see color” back then as a way to avoid prejudice. Of course we’ve learned since then that “the melting pot” method was the wrong way to go and to instead celebrate cultures and work to understand and honor their POV. Learning to respect and understand cultural differences was a HUGE asking point of Lauren’s and why she and Orion were matched. So I think it was all a terrible misunderstanding. Somehow she seemed to have never even heard “redskin” or had the assumption that it had to do with reddish-brown skin undertones. She certainly never heard it was possibly related to scalping! The way she laughed and pulled faces while saying, “I just saw your face!” It did seem like she “just got” the skintone thing—but why laugh and make those faces?!? Trying to play it off that he is currently sunburned makes absolutely no sense as an excuse for why an entire race of indigenous peoples were called that term for centuries. I think Lauren’s initial reaction was shocking and embarrassing to me as a viewer, so I can see why it must have  gutted Orion. However, she then tried to apologize and understand, so he could have given her the benefit of the doubt in the long run. They got off on the wrong foot while trying to begin their understanding of each other’s cultures—but this is something that’s at the core of what they want in a partner. I hope they can take a step back to see the big picture that they do have this commonality of values, and not just write this off as a dealbreaker that she’s not trying to understand, because ultimately she is. They were also off to a really great start when they were in that massive pool talking about planning a family and really connecting with each other.

I hope they can get back on track. If not, then I think the girl with the pink hair and her husband are the only ones who are going to make it. They are so normal and perfect together, that I can’t even remember their names. Emily is a mess; she “was” a party girl back in college? She was worse than this?!? She’s still better than Clare who is killing Cam’s spirit. Every word out of her mouth you can see just cutting him. But here he is in his goofy outfit still trying to hang in there. It’s just sad to watch this man basically being emotionally abused by this “therapist” in training. And he can’t “win” because she’s a therapist and “knows better” than him, in her opinion.

Edited November 19, 2023 by JenE4

[Yeah No]

I think Orion and Clare are looking to find something wrong with their spouses.  Perhaps Lauren should not have made the "redskin" comment, but as much as I don't love Keisha, I thought she was right to point out that while Orion was very generous with Cameron in saying he could "spot ignorance" in his "reservation" comment, he did not give the same pass to Lauren.  I don't think she knew any more about the association between "redskin" and scalping than most of us here did, and it's news to most of us us.  Sure, the term used by Cameron wasn't as offensive, but then again Orion had just admitted to Lauren that he'd used the "N" word in his past, so why couldn't he afford her the same generosity of forgiveness with what she said?  To me it was obviously an unintended flub, probably brought on by nervousness.  Expecting her to know the history and the degree of offensiveness of that term was too much to ask.  Everyone in our culture knows how offensive the "N" word is, but most of us are not aware of how offensive the "R" word is for Native Americans.  It just isn't spread in the media and the culture, and that means not knowing it is ignorance, not something intentional.  He should know that and give her the benefit of the doubt.  I think he's tweaked a little too high, hypersensitive, AND looking to find fault with Lauren and sabotage the relationship.  Doesn't bode well if you ask me.

[Crashcourse]

When I went to the American Indian Museum in DC a few years ago, the American Indian guide asked us attendees whether we were born in the U.S.  When we all raised our hands, he said that we were all Native Americans.  I have a feeling that Orion would find a reason to be greatly offended.

[StatisticalOutlier]

2 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I vaguely even recall being taught a song in Girl Scouts back in the 80s that was supposed to be some anthem of inclusivity that talked about all of the colors of the world, giving shoutouts to people who are brown, black, yellow, red, and white.

Was it this?

Jesus loves the little children.

All the children of the world.

Red and yellow, black and white,

They are precious in his sight.

Jesus loves the little children of the world.

I remember it from the 1960s in Texas.  Given that, I doubt it was an anthem for inclusivity.  Probably more like Jesus loves them so you don't need to. 

I'm on the fence about Orion.  I have little patience for people who get butt-hurt over all sorts of stuff that I don't think should bother them, so I tend to think "just get over it, man."  But then everybody says people are entitled to their feelings, and if he was horribly hurt, then that's how he was, and who am I to judge? 

What I do know that even if he's horribly wrong by some objective standard, I detested Keshia's bullying him on the after party.  I really felt sorry for him having to sit there and take it from her, and from Emily.
 

Edited November 19, 2023 by StatisticalOutlier