S02.E02: Some Sort of Trick

[Affogato]

32 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

 

Gladys can do better both financially and socially.  

Yes she can, theoretically. Oscar doesn't seem to be abusive or controlling.

My objection to the term fortune hunter was that, if you use the term in this context, you miss the point. I haven't changed my opinion. How would you expect Oscar to behave?

  I suspect Gladys doesn't want to be Bertha. She may not be looking for high social status and great wealth, when she thinks about it. ⁷

I don't find this world attractive or romantic. Yikes. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Affogato

[AntFTW]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I suspect Gladys doesn't want to be Bertha. She may not be looking for high social status and great wealth, when she thinks about it. 

I think the children, as far as we've seen, don't care as much as their parents about social status. I'm applying all of the Old Money children as well. Oscar and Carrie Astor don't seem to care that Larry and Gladys are new money.

The children aren't having a hard time blending in socially but the adults are (Bertha specifically). Larry is all over Newport, being invited to social events and dinners in New York and Bertha initially wasn't. The Russell children don't seem to have a difficult time fitting in with the Old Money children.

Therefore, I'm thinking that Gladys doesn't have the same view of society as Bertha because they have two completely difference experiences of it.

From what we know so far, 100% of Gladys' exposure to potential suitors is from the pool of high society and wealth. We also know that's not true of Bertha. From Bertha's point of view, Gladys has to marry someone from this pool and no one outside of it because we've worked hard to obtain this wealth and status. From Gladys' point of view, wealth and status a part of the package by default and doesn't have to put much thought into it because that's all there is.

Edited November 9, 2023 by AntFTW

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

My objection to the term fortune hunter was that, if you use the term in this context, you miss the point. I haven't changed my opinion. How would you expect Oscar to behave?

 

I admit I'm confused what the point is then? Oscar likes Gladys because he wants money and she has a lot of money--and her other attributes make her a good candidate to get the money from her. When it looked like her family might be ruined, he dropped her, because her money is the main reason he's marrying her. So what makes the term fortune hunter distract from the main point? Just that them both considering money and status in marriage would be expected?

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I admit I'm confused what the point is then? Oscar likes Gladys because he wants money and she has a lot of money--and her other attributes make her a good candidate to get the money from her. When it looked like her family might be ruined, he dropped her, because her money is the main reason he's marrying her. So what makes the term fortune hunter distract from the main point? Just that them both considering money and status in marriage would be expected?

The point I was addressing was that George knew Oscar was gay. I think the acting emphasized it. George knew Oscar's Financials and they weren't the issue, particularly. He doubted Oscar's feelings, he says so.  He found out if Gladys loved George, but as she did not, George did not have to be unkind. 

  I said he wasn't a fortune hunter because he was openly following the rules of his society. They were all fortune hunters.   Whoever responded choose to address the literal meaning of fortune hunter and not the original argument. 

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The point I was addressing was that George knew Oscar was gay. I think the acting emphasized it. George knew Oscar's Financials and they weren't the issue, particularly. He doubted Oscar's feelings, he says so.  He found out if Gladys loved George, but as she did not, George did not have to be unkind. 

 

Ah! I see, yes--you meant the point of the scene. I agree, then. George was well aware that their money was part of the deal for Oscar, but also knows it would be for anybody. George's issue wasn't financial at all, but personal. He didn't even think Oscar was that bad of a choice--he said he believed that Oscar liked Gladys and wanted her to be basically happy with their arrangment. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

He needs a wonan with money. He has been quite open about it. Everyone knows. 

As far I remember, the only one to whom Oscar has spoken about a rich wife is his lover. Instead, "everyone knows" that he can't marry Marian who is penniless which shows that he has rather modest means.

But there are a difference between marrying a woman who pne loves and who has money enough so that their fortune put together guarantees them comfortable lifestyle and marrying a rich heiress whom one doesn't love.

[Roseanna]

21 minutes ago, Affogato said:

They were all fortune hunters. 

Not at all. Some have enough money and they can marry a person without any money. 

Decent fathers who loved their daughters were worried about fortune hunters. Besides wrong motives, could such a man who hadn't had money, keep money? 

 

[DiabLOL]

22 hours ago, Affogato said:

I am pretty sure, with the second setup for Oscar (a woman with a paid companion) that basically everyone knows Oscar is gay. I also think that George's emphasis on 'marriage of convenience' and 'you can do better' was telling.

One hundred percent. Also compare how Gladys’ previous suitor was dealt with and what was said.

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Not at all. Some have enough money and they can marry a person without any money. 

Decent fathers who loved their daughters were worried about fortune hunters. Besides wrong motives, could such a man who hadn't had money, keep money? 

 

No but Oscar had evidence if some ability to manage holdings.  And everyone married for fortune. The young Miss Russell’s counterpart married, trading money for a title. That is fortune as well. Marriages were made to strengthen families, not for love, for most of history.  The gilded age families followed that tradition.  George pays heavily for a title. 

[Sarah 103]

22 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yes, it really is a stretch. I can see him doing an apprenticeship of sorts and meeting someone there, you know, as part of his studies.

I love this idea and wish it was what happened. It makes perfect sense and still allows the plot to play out exactly as it did. It still allows Larry to meet and develop a relationship with Mrs. Blaine (the widow). 

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I think the children, as far as we've seen, don't care as much as their parents about social status. I'm applying all of the Old Money children as well. Oscar and Carrie Astor don't seem to care that Larry and Gladys are new money.

The children aren't having a hard time blending in socially but the adults are (Bertha specifically). Larry is all over Newport, being invited to social events and dinners in New York and Bertha initially wasn't. The Russell children don't seem to have a difficult time fitting in with the Old Money children.

This is something I wish the series would do more of. I want to see more of the younger generation interacting with each other. I want conversations of how the younger generation views each other because as you pointed out, the Old Money vs. New Money divide that seems all important to the older generation does not seem to matter much to the younger generation at all. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Ah! I see, yes--you meant the point of the scene. I agree, then. George was well aware that their money was part of the deal for Oscar, but also knows it would be for anybody. George's issue wasn't financial at all, but personal. He didn't even think Oscar was that bad of a choice--he said he believed that Oscar liked Gladys and wanted her to be basically happy with their arrangment. 

I still don't think George trusts Oscar completely after the events of last season. George did question whether Oscar is after Gladys because her fortune, and for that reason alone.

However, I do think George was willing to put that aside if Gladys truly loved him but she didn't love him. That's why I think George told Gladys that she could do better than Oscar because he thinks Oscar is only after her money and therefore does not have genuine romantic love for her. I took that as "you find someone that you love and will love you back, and will give you what you want rather than someone chasing you for your money."

48 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

One hundred percent. Also compare how Gladys’ previous suitor was dealt with and what was said.

Aurora brought the second woman to Oscar's attention. Aurora knows Oscar is wanting a woman with a lot of money. That's why Aurora brought to Oscar's attention that she has a sizeable fortune, and that he should pursue her if he has real feelings for this woman. I think Aurora may know that Oscar is gay.

George's meeting with Oscar is not enough for me to draw the conclusion that George (and George specifically) knows Oscar is gay. However, it has already been shown to us that George may suspect Oscar of being a fortune hunter with respect his "love" for Gladys. George also knows Gladys doesn't really love Oscar. The use of the term "marriage of convenience" is not enough to point me in the direction that George believes Oscar is gay because it's a marriage of convenience no matter which way George thinks about it. Gladys doesn't love Oscar but wants more freedom that the marriage would give her. That is a marriage of convenience. George has suspected that Oscar wants Gladys for her fortune, and if George's suspicions are right about Oscar, it's a marriage of convenience.

Edited November 9, 2023 by AntFTW

[peeayebee]

10 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

George's meeting with Oscar is not enough for me to draw the conclusion that George (and George specifically) knows Oscar is gay. However, it has already been shown to us that George may suspect Oscar of being a fortune hunter with respect his "love" for Gladys. George also knows Gladys doesn't really love Oscar. The use of the term "marriage of convenience" is not enough point me in the direction that George believes Oscar is gay because it's a marriage of convenience no matter which way George thinks about it. Gladys doesn't love Oscar but wants more freedom that the marriage would need. That is a marriage of convenience. George has suspected that Oscar wants Gladys for her fortune, and if George's suspicions are right about Oscar, it's a marriage of convenience.

I also am not convinced that George knows Oscar is gay. I think I'll have to rewatch that scene to see if I notice anything different.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

George knew Oscar's Financials and they weren't the issue, particularly. He doubted Oscar's feelings, he says so.  He found out if Gladys loved George, but as she did not, George did not have to be unkind.

I agree that Oscar's financials weren't the issue. The issue is that Gladys didn't love Oscar.

I don't think George knew Oscar's financials with specificity but at the point where Gladys indicated that she doesn't love Oscar, it didn't matter what Oscar's financials were. The answer was always going to be 'no.' The answer was 'no' before Oscar walked in the door so there was no need to waste time reviewing financials or hearing Oscar out.

I didn't think George was being unkind, but he was assertive. George had to draw the line to make sure Oscar gets the point that marrying Gladys is not going to happen considering that they had communicated in a softer approach that the answer is 'no.' Oscar kept pursuing anyway, so George had to drop the hammer and make it clear once and for all.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

And everyone married for fortune. The young Miss Russell’s counterpart married, trading money for a title. That is fortune as well. Marriages were made to strengthen families, not for love, for most of history.  The gilded age families followed that tradition.  George pays heavily for a title. 

That was history but the series is a soap - and written by Fellowes who gave Edith a marquis and even Mrs Crawley a titled man.   

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

George's meeting with Oscar is not enough for me to draw the conclusion that George (and George specifically) knows Oscar is gay. However, it has already been shown to us that George may suspect Oscar of being a fortune hunter with respect his "love" for Gladys. George also knows Gladys doesn't really love Oscar.

I also agree that there was nothing in the scene that made it apparent that George is aware or even suspects that Oscar is gay.

And to me, the scene with Gladys strongly implies that he does not know or suspect.  Even if Gladys thought she was in love with Oscar, I don't for a moment believe George would consider a union, even in the unlikely event he was progressive on the notion of homosexuality generally, in which the man in question would never love Gladys as he should a wife and would likely take male lovers, risking hurt upon hurt to Gladys and scandal upon scandal to them both.

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

This is something I wish the series would do more of. I want to see more of the younger generation interacting with each other. I want conversations of how the younger generation views each other because as you pointed out, the Old Money vs. New Money divide that seems all important to the older generation does not seem to matter much to the younger generation at all. 

I would like to see more of this as well.  I love Christine Baranski, Cynthia Nixon, Audra McDonald, and Carrie C. But I would like to see more of the younger generation to show that aspect of the era as well, the way the society was changing with the younger generation who grew up attending the same schools and parties and how that has begun to erase the distinctions.

At present, the show feels very weighted toward the Grande Dames of the respective cohorts. And though they are undoubtedly the more engaging actors, the story is missing the dimension of the generational drift. And I don't mean that in a Larry tells his mother he didn't like the type of women she prefers or Marian blandly and passive-aggressively dodges Agnes's suggested suitors way.  But, rather, in a way that shows the younger generation naturally interacting in which they are more the focus.  

We got a little of that with Larry in Newport with Carrie Astor socializing and some this episode with Gladys and Marian.  But it's been extremely few and far between.

Edited November 10, 2023 by RachelKM
This cite does not like Carrie C's last name... or I have a weird glitch.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

The use of the term "marriage of convenience" is not enough to point me in the direction that George believes Oscar is gay because it's a marriage of convenience no matter which way George thinks about it. Gladys doesn't love Oscar but wants more freedom that the marriage would give her. That is a marriage of convenience. George has suspected that Oscar wants Gladys for her fortune, and if George's suspicions are right about Oscar, it's a marriage of convenience.

 

5 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I also am not convinced that George knows Oscar is gay. I think I'll have to rewatch that scene to see if I notice anything different.

Agreed. George's point was that he knew that Gladys didn't love Oscar, and he seemed to know that Oscar wasn't in love with Gladys either. He was right on the money when he said he believed that Oscar genuinely didn't want Gladys to be unhappy in the marriage--that's not love.

But that doesn't mean he knows Oscar is gay. He could be saying the same thing to him without that specific meaning. Oscar could be a straight man who didn't love Gladys (and wasn't loved in return) too. That might have been more of an issue of Gladys loved him back but since she didn't love Oscar either, he knew there would be no personal heartbreak like that on either side.

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I think the children, as far as we've seen, don't care as much as their parents about social status. I'm applying all of the Old Money children as well. Oscar and Carrie Astor don't seem to care that Larry and Gladys are new money.

The children aren't having a hard time blending in socially but the adults are (Bertha specifically). Larry is all over Newport, being invited to social events and dinners in New York and Bertha initially wasn't. The Russell children don't seem to have a difficult time fitting in with the Old Money children.

Therefore, I'm thinking that Gladys doesn't have the same view of society as Bertha because they have two completely difference experiences of it.

From what we know so far, 100% of Gladys' exposure to potential suitors is from the pool of high society and wealth. We also know that's not true of Bertha. From Bertha's point of view, Gladys has to marry someone from this pool and no one outside of it because we've worked hard to obtain this wealth and status. From Gladys' point of view, wealth and status a part of the package by default and doesn't have to put much thought into it because that's all there is.

 

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I would like to see more of this as well.  I love Christine Baranski, Cynthia Nixon, Audra McDonald, and Carrie C. But I would like to see more of the younger generation to show that aspect of the era as well, the way the society was changing with the younger generation who grew up attending the same schools and parties and how that has begun to erase the distinctions.

At present, the show feels very weighted toward the Grande Dames of the respective cohorts. And though they are undoubtedly the more engaging actors, the story is missing the dimension of the generational drift. And I don't mean that in a Larry tells his mother he didn't like the type of women she prefers or Marian blandly and passive-aggressively dodges Agnes's suggested suitors way.  But, rather, in a way that shows the younger generation naturally interacting in which they are more the focus.  

We got a little of that with Larry in Newport with Carrie Astor socializing and some this episode with Gladys and Marian.  But it's been extremely few and far between.

While it's in itself good that the younger generation has a good relationship with each other regardless of if their parents belong to  the "old" or "new" money, but that also means that their interaction hasn't anything to base a drama on. 

An interesting character needs a goal to strife for and outer and inner restrictions. Only Oscar had both and even he isn't interesting. Others need *real* ordeals in order to develop and grow.

 

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

While it's in itself good that the younger generation has a good relationship with each other regardless of if their parents belong to  the "old" or "new" money, but that also means that their interaction hasn't anything to base a drama on. 

It could present an interesting contrast. You have all this drama of Old Money vs. New Money among the adults, especially the women (wives and mothers), and the younger generation has a completely separate point of view which could be fun to explore. Plus you have the potential for relationship drama among the younger generation in terms of gossip about invitations, who people danced with, possibly seating arrangements (where people were seated at a dinner party).

You have the adults playing matchmaker for the young women, you have the young men trying to strategize, and there are absolutely interesting stories there. We are getting them from the perspective of the older generation, but I would love to see the perspective switch every now and then and show us the younger generation's perspective more often.  

[norcalgal]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:48 AM, Roseanna said:

Does anyone know if it was really true in the US in the 1880 that Mrs Russell had long to fight for acceptance by "old money" because her husband was "new money" and a lady is afraid that her father's occupationa as Mr Russell's valet will be  revealed but Turner who was Mrs Russell's maid not long ago will be accepted straightaway after she married an "old money" man?

 

On 11/6/2023 at 8:36 AM, iMonrey said:

Some of it felt way too rushed though. Larry went from meeting Mrs. Blaine to sleeping with her in a nanosecond. And Oscar lost Gladys and gained a new prospect in about a day. 

Co-signed. The two instances @iMonrey wrote about seemed to happen in warp speed. They probably didn’t, but the show did a poor job showing that time had elapsed.

On 11/7/2023 at 4:06 AM, Haleth said:

I'm a bit confused.  The valet's daughter who married rich cannot let it be known her father is a valet or they will be shunned, yet the lady's maid who married rich seems to be accepted just fine.  (Or maybe we'll find out not.)

Sorry I couldn’t put @Roseanna and @Haleth’s posts together, but count me in as confused as well.  Why would the hoity toity women of the Gilded Age want to consort with someone who used to be a lady’s maid?  Maybe if the husbands of the Gilded Age women needed Turner’s husband and therefore forced the wives to make nice, then that’s the only reason I can think of why any Gilded Age woman would willingly consort with Turner.

[Camera One]

Turner and Bertha both have a similar sneering air to them.  We haven't really seen Turner's charming side yet, LOL.  

George made a huge mistake of not telling the whole truth to his wife.  Turner will surely enjoy twisting the knife.

[AntFTW]

33 minutes ago, Camera One said:

George made a huge mistake of not telling the whole truth to his wife.  Turner will surely enjoy twisting the knife.

I highly doubt that Turner will tell her or even hint it. I don’t see how there is any upside for Turner if she told or even hinted at what she did in the Russells’ house.

[Atlanta]

31 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I highly doubt that Turner will tell her or even hint it. I don’t see how there is any upside for Turner if she told or even hinted at what she did in the Russells’ house.

True. What could be gained? Would that bring shame to her new husband? He may know she is a former lady's maid, but probably not that she tried to proposition the man of the house.

[Affogato]

17 hours ago, norcalgal said:

 

 

Sorry I couldn’t put @Roseanna and @Haleth’s posts together, but count me in as confused as well.  Why would the hoity toity women of the Gilded Age want to consort with someone who used to be a lady’s maid?  Maybe if the husbands of the Gilded Age women needed Turner’s husband and therefore forced the wives to make nice, then that’s the only reason I can think of why any Gilded Age woman would willingly consort with Turner.

didn't Bertha come from potato farmers? welcome her, because they are nice people (or like her husband or her table) and eventually more and more will come over to her side, as we have seen with Bertha.  This is a time when there is a lot of movement up and down in society on all levels, and I'm sure everyone is aware of that, too. Lincoln, after all, came from a log cabin.

[norcalgal]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

didn't Bertha come from potato farmers? welcome her, because they are nice people (or like her husband or her table) and eventually more and more will come over to her side, as we have seen with Bertha.  This is a time when there is a lot of movement up and down in society on all levels, and I'm sure everyone is aware of that, too. Lincoln, after all, came from a log cabin.

In S1, didn’t the husbands tell their wives to make nice with Bertha because George could ruin them financially?  Otherwise, I think the Old Money still would have given Bertha the cold shoulder. Maybe the Old Money families also need Turner’s husband in some way. If not, New Money (with the exception of the Russells) should be reasonably accepting of Turner (and still might be even if New Money knows she used to be a ladies’ maid). 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:09 PM, Straycat80 said:

Oscar took losing Gladys well. I’ll bet he goes after the new young lady (name?) he met at the party.

Maud Beaton.

On 11/5/2023 at 10:15 PM, AntFTW said:

OMG! Turner is now a rich man's wife.

I had a feeling a couple weeks ago that if she returned this season, that would be how.

On 11/5/2023 at 10:41 PM, Jodithgrace said:

Part of me feels bad for Oscar in his quest for a wife. But mostly I don’t want him to succeed because it’s a terribly unfair life for a wife married to a closeted gay man.

Well, if she knew he was gay and was cool with being the beard it would be one thing. Many of these people aren't expecting to marry for love anyway, and Oscar would allow her a great deal of freedom. He'd have to come clean to her, though.

On 11/5/2023 at 10:41 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I kept thinking that the feckless Mr. Morgan would turn out to be J.P. Morgan, but old JP would already be a big shot by this period,  and not  a drunken youth. Right? Hmmm.  Have to Google. Ok…there was a JPMorgan Jr, but everyone would have known who he was. 

This one is named Edward Morgan, so no.

On 11/6/2023 at 12:21 AM, Camera One said:

If Bertha is fundraising and recruiting people for boxes at the new opera house, will she be shunned by old money again? 

Well, there are some old money people involved in the new opera house already and she's trying to convert more of them.

On 11/6/2023 at 12:21 AM, Camera One said:

Mr. Russell is promising his daughter to back her if she falls in love.  Is she no longer in love with that guy from last season?

Archie Baldwin. Given that he called it off between them on George's instructions, no.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:48 AM, Roseanna said:

Does anyone know if it was really true in the US in the 1880 that Mrs Russell had long to fight for acceptance by "old money" because her husband was "new money" and a lady is afraid that her father's occupationa as Mr Russell's valet will be  revealed but Turner who was Mrs Russell's maid not long ago will be accepted straightaway after she married an "old money" man?

In the first season Turner made an offer to Mr Russell to become his mistress, so why wouldn't she be content with the same postion with the "old money" man but succeeded to marry him? Wasn't she working in his household but met him in the circumstances where he didn't know her background? Why did he marry her so suddenly - even if they had a relationship and she became pregnant, that's not the reason enough for an upper class man to marry a lower class woman.

 

We have yet to see how accepted Turner is.

Mr Winterton wasn't married, so Turner didn't have to just be his mistress.

We haven't seen yet. But she probably managed to get him infatuated enough with her to marry her by flattering him.

This reminds me, Turner's first name was never given last season. I should hope it will be now.

On 11/6/2023 at 1:24 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Mrs. Blaine would be a pathetic old woman chasing after a younger man trying to recapture her lost youth.

Girl ain't remotely old.

On 11/6/2023 at 4:04 PM, iMonrey said:

I've totally forgotten what the valet's storyline is. Why is it a secret he has a daughter, and what was the backstory of him becoming a valet?

We don't know the backstory of Watson becoming a valet yet. Just that his wife divorced him and took their daughter, and that he fell on hard times. Unclear in which order. He hasn't seen his daughter in many years. He was hanging around her home last season, and she didn't recognize him yet then.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:45 PM, Sarah 103 said:

They are both single and more than enough time has passed for Ada to remarry without anyone commenting about it's too soon after her husband died.

As Ada mentioned in the previous episode, she's never been married. Last season, Agnes said that Ada was "allowed the tranquil life of a spinster" while she was not, as she had to marry Mr Van Rhijn to get herself and Ada out of poverty after their brother (Marian's father) blew their family fortune.

On 11/8/2023 at 12:53 AM, Camera One said:

Now that we know Larry is so easy, maybe Turner bedded him too.

I got the impression he lost his virginity. Even if not, he and Susan Blane appear to have genuine feelings for each other.

On 11/8/2023 at 4:17 PM, Affogato said:

I am pretty sure, with the second setup for Oscar (a woman with a paid companion) that basically everyone knows Oscar is gay. I also think that George's emphasis on 'marriage of convenience' and 'you can do better' was telling.

It might turn out her paid companion is in fact her lover, come to think of it.

On 11/9/2023 at 9:39 AM, AntFTW said:

He told the guy he’s sleeping with (I forgot his name)

John Adams IV, a fictional great-grandson of John Quincy Adams.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:14 PM, AntFTW said:

I think the children, as far as we've seen, don't care as much as their parents about social status.

If they become pariahs, they may find they care more than they thought.

12 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I highly doubt that Turner will tell her or even hint it. I don’t see how there is any upside for Turner if she told or even hinted at what she did in the Russells’ house.

The only way that story would make George look bad is if Turner lies or leaves out salient facts about George showing no interest and throwing her out of his room.

6 hours ago, norcalgal said:

In S1, didn’t the husbands tell their wives to make nice with Bertha because George could ruin them financially?

Basically. Anne Morris and Aurora Fane were resistant even after their husbands told them that. Until George did nearly ruin Charles Fane but relented on the condition that Aurora would work to get Bertha accepted in society.

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

Turner and Bertha both have a similar sneering air to them.  We haven't really seen Turner's charming side yet, LOL.  

George made a huge mistake of not telling the whole truth to his wife.  Turner will surely enjoy twisting the knife.

 

16 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I highly doubt that Turner will tell her or even hint it. I don’t see how there is any upside for Turner if she told or even hinted at what she did in the Russells’ house.

 

16 hours ago, Atlanta said:

True. What could be gained? Would that bring shame to her new husband? He may know she is a former lady's maid, but probably not that she tried to proposition the man of the house.

 

4 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

The only way that story would make George look bad is if Turner lies or leaves out salient facts about George showing no interest and throwing her out of his room.

@Noneofyourbusiness But she had no business to come to his room at all. 

 So Turner had to invent a completely different story. That Mr Russell seduced her and they slept together? No, although that would anger Bertha, it would also shame Turner herself. That he tried to seduce/rape her her but she said no/fought and kept her honor? But why did she stay in the house until Mrs Russell fired her?

Well, I hope Fellowes has invented something that will surprise us. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

@Noneofyourbusiness But she had no business to come to his room at all.

So? It's not like Turner would care if she herself looks bad to Bertha. She knows that ship has already sailed and regards her as an enemy.

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No, although that would anger Bertha, it would also shame Turner herself.

No, it wouldn't. Only if Bertha repeated it to Turner's husband or anyone else, which Bertha would never do because her husband having had an affair would shame Bertha herself. Otherwise, seducing Bertha's husband is something to gloat about and throw in her face. Making out to Bertha that Turner and George slept together, or that he was tempted by her advances and that's why he kept her on until Bertha fired her, only makes Bertha lose faith in George and doesn't hurt Turner.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

So? It's not like Turner would care if she herself looks bad to Bertha. She knows that ship has already sailed and regards her as an enemy.

No, it wouldn't. Only if Bertha repeated it to Turner's husband or anyone else, which Bertha would never do because her husband having had an affair would shame Bertha herself. Otherwise, seducing Bertha's husband is something to gloat about and throw in her face. Making out to Bertha that Turner and George slept together, or that he was tempted by her advances and that's why he kept her on until Bertha fired her, only makes Bertha lose faith in George and doesn't hurt Turner.

Just so I understand, you think Turner would do that solely to hurt Bertha? It's just purely her dislike or hatred for Bertha as the main motivation.

By revealing this information, Turner hurts Bertha (maybe) but it changes nothing in Turner's life. Turner gets nothing in return. If that's the only motivation, I don't think that's enough motivation. I think there would have to be more of an upside for Turner than just hurting Bertha.

Edited November 12, 2023 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

So? It's not like Turner would care if she herself looks bad to Bertha. She knows that ship has already sailed and regards her as an enemy.

No, it wouldn't. Only if Bertha repeated it to Turner's husband or anyone else, which Bertha would never do because her husband having had an affair would shame Bertha herself. Otherwise, seducing Bertha's husband is something to gloat about and throw in her face. Making out to Bertha that Turner and George slept together, or that he was tempted by her advances and that's why he kept her on until Bertha fired her, only makes Bertha lose faith in George and doesn't hurt Turner.

You said it yourself: Bertha could tell to Turner's husband - and it would be hurt Turner much more. 

But at that time a husband's adultery was common and did *not* shame a wife. Although a wife might be angry, she would usually forgive her husband. 

Instead a husband would be shamed by a wife's adultery or marrying a woman who was twice a sinner. Turner's husband would never forgive his wife and would divorce him.

32 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Just so I understand, you think Turner would do that solely to hurt Bertha? It's just purely her dislike or hatred for Bertha as the main motivation.

By revealing this information, Turner hurts maybe Bertha but it changes nothing in Turner's life. Turner gets nothing in return. If that's the only motivation, I don't think that's enough motivation. I think there would have to be more of an upside for Turner than just hurting Bertha.

You have a good point: what does Turner get by hurting Bertha? Maybe she wouldn't even succeed: Bertha may ask George and believe his refusal. After all, there is only word against word.

Also, Turner had actually less reason to hurt Bertha (she fired her but that's not unusual) than George (he refused her offer of sex and she regarded it as an insult).

Thus, Turner rather would blackmail George by threating to tell Bertha. Then George would have to decide: to pay to Turner or tell Bertha and trust she believes him. 

[Camera One]

30 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Thus, Turner rather would blackmail George by threating to tell Bertha. Then George would have to decide: to pay to Turner or tell Bertha and trust she believes him. 

This is definitely another possibility.  Regardless, drama-wise, I think Turner will use what she has in one way or another.  At some point, Turner will want something, and this will be her leverage.  Ultimately, it will likely blow up in her face, but that woman is as vindictive and conniving as you can get, but not exactly clear-headed or smart.

[peeayebee]

I can see Turner acting to hurt Bertha just because she (Turner) is a bad person. Simple revenge for getting fired and because George's affections were/are firmly on Bertha. However, since we don't know much about Turner's marriage or how she got there, anything is possible.

[AntFTW]

13 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I can see Turner acting to hurt Bertha just because she (Turner) is a bad person. Simple revenge for getting fired and because George's affections were/are firmly on Bertha.

Well, if that's the case perhaps she should be grateful. She wouldn't have met this rich man if she were still working for the Russells. She always looked and talked down to people with her same socioeconomic status because she wasn't going to be a maid forever. She already had the attitude of a rich man's wife, and all she was missing was the rich man. Now, she's living her dream as a rich man's wife.

Turner turned out to be a better fortune-hunter than Oscar. Turner hooked a whale rather quickly.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Thus, Turner rather would blackmail George by threating to tell Bertha. Then George would have to decide: to pay to Turner or tell Bertha and trust she believes him. 

Given what I've seen of George, I think he'd tell Bertha. This is not a guy that submits to blackmail, particularly of something he didn't do. It's not like people wouldn't believe him publicly if he told them what really happened, given that Turner quickly slept with/married the next rich guy she worked near.

[Sarah 103]

19 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Girl ain't remotely old.

No, but I think there's enough of an age difference for the women to gossip and say horrible things about her. My comments were based on what the women might say vs. what the men might say discussing the exact same situation.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Given what I've seen of George, I think he'd tell Bertha. This is not a guy that submits to blackmail, particularly of something he didn't do. It's not like people wouldn't believe him publicly if he told them what really happened, given that Turner quickly slept with/married the next rich guy she worked near.

I agree. George would tell Bertha, and they would work together to completely destroy her.

[ChlcGal]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:22 AM, AntFTW said:

"Considering finances" is a cute way to put it 😂

You make it sound like it's not a determining factor when it is.

A select few people know, not everyone.

Yes, and the underlying reason for mistrusting Oscar's ability to love Gladys is because she is extremely wealthy.

Ok, call it whatever you like. Potayto-potahto.

He's not a fortune hunter.  He's absolutely a product of his times.  That class married within its class.  Oscar is from an old New York family with money. He is expected to marry someone with money and a family name because that's what they did.  He was actually going outside the norm by looking at Gladys as a possibility because she didn't have the name. So yes, when it looked like the Russells were losing their money, he bolted.  After all her sweet personality would not be enough to get a man interested in her, especially without an old family name.

Personally, I think what he said to her during the proposal was pretty true.  He liked her and they probably would have had a pretty affectionate marriage with a nice friendship. I actually appreciated that we saw that Gladys had her own non-romantic reasons to marry and was ok with trading a great romance for laughter and her own home.   There are certainly worse reasons to get married. Bertha and George were the outliers, being so in love as they are.

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, ChlcGal said:

He's not a fortune hunter.  He's absolutely a product of his times.  That class married within its class.  Oscar is from an old New York family with money. He is expected to marry someone with money and a family name because that's what they did.  He was actually going outside the norm by looking at Gladys as a possibility because she didn't have the name. So yes, when it looked like the Russells were losing their money, he bolted.  After all her sweet personality would not be enough to get a man interested in her, especially without an old family name.

Personally, I think what he said to her during the proposal was pretty true.  He liked her and they probably would have had a pretty affectionate marriage with a nice friendship. I actually appreciated that we saw that Gladys had her own non-romantic reasons to marry and was ok with trading a great romance for laughter and her own home.   There are certainly worse reasons to get married. Bertha and George were the outliers, being so in love as they are.

I understand, but to me, none of that means he's not a fortune hunter. All of these characters are supposedly products of the time. Yet, some of them aren't hunting for fortune, but Oscar is. He's committed.

[Sarah 103]

4 hours ago, ChlcGal said:

Bertha and George were the outliers, being so in love as they are.

My understanding is that among the upper classes, marrying for love was unusual. Marriages among the upper classes were about position, status, uniting families with a common interest that might be financially beneficial for the men's businesses interests. 

However, among the less affluent marrying for love was more common and accepted. When George and Bertha married, he was not wealthy and neither came from money. It seems she was with him from the start and he built every dollar and scent of his fortune with her support and encouragement. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

19 hours ago, Roseanna said:

You said it yourself: Bertha could tell to Turner's husband - and it would be hurt Turner much more. 

But at that time a husband's adultery was common and did *not* shame a wife. Although a wife might be angry, she would usually forgive her husband.

Which, again, she would never do. Bertha is too proud; she would rather die than let an outsider know her husband betrayed her.

It would absolutely shame them to have someone else know it happened. It happening clandestinely when no one can prove it may be common, but having an affair aired would most certainly shame the wife. The implication is that she isn't enough to sexually satisfy her husband. It getting out wouldn't socially embarrass the husband doing the cheating, but it would embarrass the wife being cheated on.

You're also not taking into account the nature of the Russells' marriage. If George had committed adultery, it would cause scars in Bertha and George's relationship that would take a long time to fully heal, if ever. They married for love and she trusts him completely. Tainting that would be the point.

20 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Just so I understand, you think Turner would do that solely to hurt Bertha?

Yes, absolutely. What she doesn't like most of all is Bertha feeling superior to her.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[taanja]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:30 AM, rollacoaster said:

He's an old man, and Turner used her magic pointy tittie powers on him. He didn't stand a chance. 

And she has some mighty DSL's! me thinks the old geeze didn't stand a chance!

^ that would be   ---   Dick Sucking Lips

[kristen111]

Loved this episode.  Chock full of goodies.  Bertha confronting George about Turner.  I could feel her pain.  

[Scarlett45]

I have to go back and read everyone’s posts, but WHY WHY WHY is the hot editor at The Globe, MARRIED! No I want him for PEGGY!

 

Also I detest Armstrong, she has no redeeming qualities. Just shut up if you can’t say anything nice, and quit being a racist you know what. 

[Scarlett45]

On 11/8/2023 at 3:17 PM, Affogato said:

 

I am pretty sure, with the second setup for Oscar (a woman with a paid companion) that basically everyone knows Oscar is gay. I also think that George's emphasis on 'marriage of convenience' and 'you can do better' was telling.

Yes. I think people like Aurora know or strongly suspect. George wants more for his daughter and I don’t blame him.  
 

Id love for Oscar to find a woman who’s a lesbian, or one who needs a cover due to a pregnancy and wouldn’t mind just being friends with him. I don’t think he would be mean or cruel to any woman he married, but I’d want the young woman to be aware and consent to the agreement. 

[RachelKM]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have to go back and read everyone’s posts, but WHY WHY WHY is the hot editor at The Globe, MARRIED! No I want him for PEGGY!

Drawbacks of using a real historical figure in your fictional series, I supposed. T. Thomas Fortune was married in 1878.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, RachelKM said:

Drawbacks of using a real historical figure in your fictional series, I supposed. T. Thomas Fortune was married in 1878.

Thank you for your kind support in this matter, but no. The hot editor is destined for PEGGY in my mind. 
 

Didn’t Peggy look gorgeous this episode though? Her skin and her hats and her beautiful clothes. 

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Drawbacks of using a real historical figure in your fictional series, I supposed. T. Thomas Fortune was married in 1878.

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

Thank you for your kind support in this matter, but no. The hot editor is destined for PEGGY in my mind. 
 

Didn’t Peggy look gorgeous this episode though? Her skin and her hats and her beautiful clothes. 

I think the real problem is that they could have hired a less good-looking actor, and created a nice deputy editor that our good-looking actor could have portrayed for our Peggy.

Edited November 20, 2023 by AntFTW

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I think the real problem is that they could have hired a less good-looking actor, and created a nice deputy editor for our Peggy.

It certainly would have been kinder to us all rather than leaving us to mourn what could have been.... or a wee bit guilty for enjoying what (is unlikely but) might be.

[JenE4]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:37 PM, RachelKM said:

It certainly would have been kinder to us all rather than leaving us to mourn what could have been.... or a wee bit guilty for enjoying what (is unlikely but) might be.

Hey, there’s still a chance that handsome managing editor’s wife might succumb to Scarlet Fever!

Edited November 22, 2023 by JenE4

[lovinbob]

Some questions:

1. Was it revealed onscreen that Church was the one who wrote the letter about Bannister? I missed that.

2. Why was Berta so dramatically appalled and offended when she saw Turner had married? (Perhaps this is a dumb question.) I get being shocked, but she seemed to take it as a personal affront in a way that would make me think she suspected/knew Turner had made a move on George.