S02.E01: You Don't Even Like Opera

[heatherchandler]

19 hours ago, shang yiet said:

I am just not interested in Peggy's dull baby storyline. It's not Gilded Age specific, it could have happened to any girl, rich or poor, black or white, in any time period.

 

I agree that things seem too easy for Bertha. I feel Mrs Astor and Ward McAllister succumbed too easily.

 

 

I agree, Peggy’s baby story draaaags the show down.  I fast forward.

 

Yes this Bertha story is so not realistic.  Things are way too easy for Bertha. 

[Sarah 103]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I understand that Fellowes wants to merge characters' plots, but could they really be friends in 1880s and even sat together in restaurants?

Legally, yes, because I do not think New York had laws on the books at that time regarding racial segregation that were being enforced. Whether or not it would be socially acceptable is a different issue. I would say probably not. There may be circumstances in which it would be acceptable, but I cannot come up with one. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:05 AM, Roseanna said:

Agnes wants Marian to marry a man from an "old money" family, but so far she hasn't done anything to help her to find one. Why didn't she arrange parties or at least ask Oscar to bring eligible men to her house?

She did tell Oscar in Season 1 that he should bring eligible men to the house for Marian to meet, and he brought Larry, whom she disapproved of. Perhaps she abandoned that avenue after that? But that doesn't explain not arranging parties.

On 11/1/2023 at 1:12 PM, Sarah 103 said:

I still want scenes of just the younger generation interacting with each other. I want to see the dynamic is when you have Marion, Oscar, Gladys and Larry in a room together, like at a party or some event. 

Seconded! That, and Larry was criminally underused last season.

On 11/1/2023 at 3:26 PM, peeayebee said:

As much as I liked the scenes in this ep re Peggy and the whole baby story, I'm left wondering what the point was. I still wonder if Fellowes had something else in mind last season but changed it for whatever reason. My only guess for the importance of it going forward is to see what happens betw Peggy's mother and father. I feel like Peggy's story (professional and perhaps romantic) will basically be separate from her parents, while we'll see how (if?) her parents repair their marriage.

I basically feel the same. But I like the "French" chef and the English butler -- I don't really know anyone's names yet. And although the character Armstrong is unlikable, Debra Monk is always watchable.

I'm afraid Fellowes is probably unlikely to show Dorothy and Arthur when Peggy's not there. They are only guest starring, after all.

Borden and Bannister.

[Roseanna]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:52 PM, Straycat80 said:

There was such a mystery about all that last season.  Did they ever say if she was married, why the boy was put up for adoption, how she found him? I don’t remember. It was just…he’s dead. 

Peggy's father made her husband sign a paper that he was already married, so the judge declared the marriage null and void. So Peggy became an unmarried mother and her son born outside marriage. When she was unconscious after her difficult birth, her father took the baby and gave it to adoption and afterwards he told Peggy that her son had died after birth. 

(But why didn't her father pay for forged documents and make Peggy a widow, so she could have kept her baby? Or simply accept fait accompli and support the new family in the condition that her husband acquired a profession?)

After a year Peggy sought after the midwife to find out her son's grave but didn't find her but met Marian in the railway station. She found out that the baby was alive when her mother opened a letter to her husband. They decided together  find out the baby although Peggy's father refused to tell the adress. That was the end of the season.

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

S1 finale: We're going to go find your son!
S2 premiere: Oh, btw, your son is dead.

Yes, but I meant even earlier.

Why did her father act like he did? Was there something seriously wrong in Peggy's husband that her father didn't approve? And why did she fell for him so hard that she didn't care that the marriage and motherhood would have meant abandoning her dreams to become a writer, not to speak of living in poverty?

[Roseanna]

On 10/31/2023 at 5:34 PM, Affogato said:

I'm not sure that Agnes is actually representative of any society, at this point. She seems to have established herself as old fashioned, frugal and somewhat rigid, and her extravagance is taking care of destitute female relatives. Spending so much time in her home, she has wrapped herself in illusions of how life should happen, although she is not unkind. I think, though, though that a lot of her anger is that she is not in control, and that will be a problem for her son, too, if she discovers his secrets. 

A good analysis.

However, I want to add one point: Agnes has shown surprisingly liberal attitudes (as well as empathy) towards Peggy. She understands that she will have difficulties in breaking the glassrow as a coloured woman and she don't disapprove at all but rather seems to admire that she has guts for it. 

That's very opposite how she treats Marian. Of course Peggy isn't her relative, so her behavior doesn't affect her own reputation, unlike that of Marian, but is there another reasons? Perhaps envy that the younger generation can have options she herself didn't have?

She was forced (or at least thinks that she was) to marry for money and therefore puts security above all. Not that it isn't important, but we have seen in the series that nothing is sure: men can loose their fortune by speculation and leave their family destitute.

[Roseanna]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:57 PM, shang yiet said:

Agnes and Ada are not stupid, I suspect they know.

It's not due stupidity but lack of available information that many women at the time didn't know about sexual matters, even "how babies are made" before they married.

And actually we were shown in the first season that Agnes and Ada did not know that Oscar is gay: when Agnes saw Oscar with Mrs Russell's maid and she touched his arm, she suspected that they had a relationship (a good guess, that's how Princess Margaret and Peter Townsend's romance was revealed in the 1950ies) and Ada, a spinster, astonished her sister by knowing that young men "sow wild oats" to mistresses and prostitutes.

[Affogato]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:18 AM, Roseanna said:

I agree that Peggy's return may help Marian. But does it help Peggy as a writer and an activist?

I understand that Fellowes wants to merge characters' plots, but could they really be friends in 1880s and even sat together in restaurants?

https://www.columbian.com/news/2022/feb/14/how-accurate-is-the-gilded-ages-history-of-new-yorks-black-elite-we-checked/

This addresses some of that, including how common an interracial friendship like Marian/Peggy would have been. It occurs to me that Peggy is working in the aunts house, was and I suppose, will be, so that would make it easier for them to go out together (I'd guess) and at the same time creates a power disparity.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Affogato

[Affogato]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:53 PM, Roseanna said:

I wayched the last episodes of the first season anew and when Oscar spoke to his lover about his reason to woo Gladys, he didn't mention about "family responsiblity" or respecting his mother. His motives were, first, that he hasn't enough money to continue his lifestyle, so he must marry money, and second, that a young man can live like he has done so far, but to an older man it raises suspicions.  

There is the problem that I don't remember a lot of his plotline from the first season and I haven't rewatched the show. It may well be that he came across as less unethical in this opener so we will see why Gladys lets him court her? 

Has he shown himself to have any passion for any work?  If he is purely a wastrel, he is probably a lost cause.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Affogato

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A good analysis.

However, I want to add one point: Agnes has shown surprisingly liberal attitudes (as well as empathy) towards Peggy. She understands that she will have difficulties in breaking the glassrow as a coloured woman and she don't disapprove at all but rather seems to admire that she has guts for it. 

That's very opposite how she treats Marian. Of course Peggy isn't her relative, so her behavior doesn't affect her own reputation, unlike that of Marian, but is there another reasons? Perhaps envy that the younger generation can have options she herself didn't have?

She was forced (or at least thinks that she was) to marry for money and therefore puts security above all. Not that it isn't important, but we have seen in the series that nothing is sure: men can loose their fortune by speculation and leave their family destitute.

I did get the impression that she was sympathetic to Peggy in part because Peggy had been legally, properly married, and so had done nothing wrong to deserve losing her child in that way. 

It is a time in the country not only when great fortunes can be made and lost, but when there is a lot of upward and downward mobility in small ways. A servant can own his own business, a gentleman can fall into servitude. People can pull themselves up by their bootstraps and also trip over them. A lot of the gilded group are acting as if they are aristocracy, but we know their money is attractive to actual aristocracy in Europe.

Agnes has the brother's example (Marian's father) of how fortunes can founder, and I suspect both Ada and Agnes were much affected by his behavior. 

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

However, I want to add one point: Agnes has shown surprisingly liberal attitudes (as well as empathy) towards Peggy. She understands that she will have difficulties in breaking the glassrow as a coloured woman and she don't disapprove at all but rather seems to admire that she has guts for it. 

 

I suspect the real difference is just that Fellowes wants Agnes to be sypathetic, so while she can be as hard as she wants about young ladies not working, she needs to be surprisingly progressive about race.

Though one could probably also explain it as Peggy being black means that Agnes doesn't consider she needs to follow the same rules as someone like her, because Peggy is outside of society no matter what.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

There is the problem that I don't remember a lot of his plotline from the first season and I haven't rewatched the show. It may well be that he came across as less unethical in this opener so we will see why Gladys lets him court her? 

Has he shown himself to have any passion for any work?  If he is purely a wastrel, he is probably a lost cause.

Oscar works in the bank but we haven't seen him doing anything related to the work, so we don't know his relationship to it.

Oscar ceased to court Gladys when it seemed that Mr Russell would loose his fortune. She is too young to understand that such behavior shows the suitor's character and values. She only sees that he is nice and amusing.

However, Mr Russell assumed immediately that Oscar is a fortune hunter and Mrs Russell said that he isn't good enough.  

Many here have assumed that in his proposal Oscar promised Gladys freedom to have affairs provided she is discreet. But in the first season he said to his lover that she is perfect because she is rich, nice and innocent (she doesn't suspect anything). 

[jenn31]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:57 PM, shang yiet said:

 

I am just not interested in Peggy's dull baby storyline. It's not Gilded Age specific, it could have happened to any girl, rich or poor, black or white, in any time period.

 

Hallelujah! Complete snoozefest and I don’t find the actress very good. I would applaud if she and Marian ran away together and left town. I agree with others that even Fellowes must have realized how dull the storyline was and quickly disposed of the kid (how jarring was that!). 

 

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, jenn31 said:

I agree with others that even Fellowes must have realized how dull the storyline was and quickly disposed of the kid (how jarring was that!). 

I find there could be much potential about the Black middle class family living  in the 1880ies in Brooklyn and Peggy's dream to publish a novel. I guess Peggy's father's clinging to success and good reputation is a reaction to past humilation (wasn't his father a slave who was sold?). The family's story would make an intresting spin-off but of course Fellowes isn't the right person to create it.

Regarding the whole series, I suppose it's meant to be a soap, so one shouldn't demand too much of it. Well, maybe Bertha's back story - what has caused her fierce ambition? She enjoys social success like she would be getting orgasm.

[chaifan]

From the Season 1 final episode, I was sure we were heading for an entire season of Peggy searching for her baby.  And I was so not looking forward to that.  While I think the resolution came out of nowhere and was wrapped up in record time, I'm glad we're done with it.  It would have bored me to tears.  The character, and the actress, deserve a better story line than that.

As everyone else has said, the sets and costumes are just amazing!  Which is good, because I find this show has a distinct lack of human eye candy.  Morgan Spector is handsome, but that beard has taken over his entire face, and then some.  Yes, I know, giant beards were the fashion.  But ugh, I find them so unattractive.  

I love the Bertha vs. Mrs. Astor plot.  I like the use of the opera box, which has historical backing, for Bertha's main motivation for the season.  And, damn, her dresses are incredible.  I loved the opera singer reveal at the end of the episode.  Bertha knows how to use her money, that's for sure.

I don't care at all about the butler as secret father of the socialite.  Yawn.  I like the other "downstairs" characters, though, and I thought the joking around with the "French" chef at the church was funny.

Marion is slightly more tolerable this season.  I think she showed two distinct facial expressions this episode.  I think they're setting things up for her and NOT cousin Dashiel.  Speaking of cousins, wasn't that still acceptable pairing at that time?  And if so, why wasn't Marion married off to Oscar? 

Speaking of Oscar, I wondered this last season, and I'm still wondering...  why did they cast Blake Ritson for this role?  He's just too old, and it makes the wooing of Gladys less fun and just creepy.  Gladys isn't even 20, and Ritson is not a convincing 30-something.  I wish they gave Gladys a better plot line than "let's go find a husband!", like allowing her to go to college to study art history or something.  I'd love to see her rebel and become a pioneer of the suffragette movement. 

Someone mentioned up thread that the Russell's don't have any vulnerabilities.  I think it would be interesting to see Bertha finally relent, allow Oscar as a suitor, they become engaged, and then Bertha and/or George learn Oscar's secret.  Breaking off an engagement is a society no no, so how would they get through that?  Or do they allow the marriage, joining in on the deceit?  That would provide the needed vulnerability...

And in a similar vein, I'd love to see Ada discover she's a lesbian.  Maybe a female artist becomes interested in Marion's paintings, meets Ada, there's a spark...  Of course, Cynthia Nixon's Miranda became wholly intolerable in the reboot (not because she's now a gay character, but they just neutered the character and ruined Miranda for me), and I'm afraid they'd just ruin another character going down this road. 

I'm interested to see what they do with Robert Sean Leonard.  I love him, but they're going to have to come up with reasons to get him out of the church.  Maybe he and Agnes become friends? 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by chaifan

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'm interested to see what they do with Robert Sean Leonard.  I love him, but they're going to have to come up with reasons to get him out of the church.  Maybe he and Agnes become friends? 

 

Spoiler from the preview for the season...

 

Spoiler

I got the impression he might seem to be paired with Ada and her sister, for some reason, considers this unacceptable.

 

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I find there could be much potential about the Black middle class family living  in the 1880ies in Brooklyn and Peggy's dream to publish a novel. I guess Peggy's father's clinging to success and good reputation is a reaction to past humilation (wasn't his father a slave who was sold?). The family's story would make an intresting spin-off but of course Fellowes isn't the right person to create it.

I am all for this hypothetical prequel/spin-off. I would love for the historical consultant Fellowes is using for Peggy's storyline to get her own show so she can do a deeper dive into this world. I would love a prequel about Peggy's father building his business, starting a family, and becoming a member of the Black elite. It could also include Peggy's life pre-baby drama. 

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

From the Season 1 final episode, I was sure we were heading for an entire season of Peggy searching for her baby.  And I was so not looking forward to that.  While I think the resolution came out of nowhere and was wrapped up in record time, I'm glad we're done with it.  It would have bored me to tears.  The character, and the actress, deserve a better story line than that.

Huge YES to this. The character deserves so much better and there are so many more interesting storylines and aspects of this era to explore through Peggy. I am glad the writers' realized their mistake and corrected it pretty quickly. 

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

I think it would be interesting to see Bertha finally relent, allow Oscar as a suitor, they become engaged, and then Bertha and/or George learn Oscar's secret.  Breaking off an engagement is a society no no, so how would they get through that?  Or do they allow the marriage, joining in on the deceit?  That would provide the needed vulnerability...

Maybe. George would have to make clear to Oscar that no scandal or indiscretion would be tolerated (per his wife's request). Oscar would have to be very careful, and produce children.  

[Camera One]

It took me awhile to get into this one.  I don't like the characters enough yet to have nearly an episode of nothing happening.

I was surprised the baby search story ended abruptly.  I half expected Peggy's father to hand some money to that guy as we find out he was pretending to be the foster father.  Having Peggy go back to live with Marian's family feels like a reset.

I hope Gladys won't fall for Oscar.  He looks way too old.  Aurora, why did you help him?  It was obvious she really didn't want to, though.

I did think it was funny how befuddled Mrs. Astor was with the "show" Bertha put on at dinner and after.  As others said, it seemed like Bertha now has everything she wanted.  Mrs. Astor even willingly came over for tea earlier.  Nathan Lane said Bertha dines at all the fine houses.  So she came off as petulant about not having a box at the Academy.  Though I thought that dinner at the end was when things finally picked up.

I'm not looking forward to another boring romance for Marian and that "cousin" guy.  I'm hardly over the shock of finding out she was teaching watercolors.  Will wonders ever cease.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Camera One

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

As others said, it seemed like Bertha now has everything she wanted.  Mrs. Astor even willingly came over for tea earlier.  Nathan Lane said Bertha dines at all the fine houses.  So she came off as petulant about not having a box at the Academy. 

Bertha doesn't have everything she wanted. Not having a box is a sbub - a sign that she isn't equal but at mercy of others who have less money than her husband. Actually, I doubt that Bertha isn't content before she wins them all through Gladys's marriage.

Or it's unlikely that she will ever be content. She is a doer, she must always to have some goal to strive for. If she were a businessman, we would understand this, but the society is the only arena she as a woman can compete in.

 

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, chaifan said:

Someone mentioned up thread that the Russell's don't have any vulnerabilities.  I think it would be interesting to see Bertha finally relent, allow Oscar as a suitor, they become engaged, and then Bertha and/or George learn Oscar's secret.  Breaking off an engagement is a society no no, so how would they get through that?  Or do they allow the marriage, joining in on the deceit?  That would provide the needed vulnerability...

Why would Bertha relent and let Gladys to marry Oscar? She would loose her dearest ambition: to marry her daughter off to a man who is above "old money". 

Mr Russell follows his wife's opinion, as we saw with Mr Baldwin who actually loved Gladys and she him. 

There is of course an old way for Oscar to get Gladys: compromise her. 

I hope Fellowes invents a surprise.

[chaifan]

Does anyone know how the allocation of opera boxes actually worked back then.  To me, it's a simple formula of supply vs. demand.  If there are 50 boxes, and 50 families "own" them (or whatever term you use of having rights to a box) then how is not having a box a "snub"?  Could the Opera simply bump a current box holder to give the box to another family, or would that be a horrible breach of protocol? Were there bidding wars at the start of each season, or did having a box give you right of first refusal for the next season?

I know it looks like I'm getting caught up in the details, but it makes a difference for how I see Bertha's quest.  Is it a reasonable quest?  Is this truly a snub?  Or did people just have to get on the list and and wait their turn, and Bertha wants special privileges?

[peeayebee]

I know that families handed down their boxes from generation to generation, making it near impossible for anybody new to get a box. Mrs Astor remarked about someone that they had been on the waiting list a long time. I guess people just hoped for a family to die out. :D I also wonder if box-holders could bequeath their boxes to non-family members (if there was no family). I suppose there was always SOME family.

I kinda think that Bertha is being unreasonable since there are a limited amount of boxes, but of course she thinks money is going to buy her whatever she wants.

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

a sign that she isn't equal but at mercy of others who have less money than her husband.

I think this is the key motivator.  She mentioned that she didn't want to be Mrs. Astor's lackey.  She wants to be the new Mrs. Astor, instead of someone just in the flock.  They overplayed her whining about the box a bit too much, so it made it seem like that was all she had a problem with. 

I think they also need to show a bit more of her relationship with the other women with "new" money.  What do they think of her?  Is she inviting them to dinner too because last season, she was simply obsessed with being accepted by the old money people.  The way it's portrayed, she isn't their "leader" either.  Clearly, there were some power women in that arena who spearheaded the new opera house, but we have not seen them or their influence.  Aren't they trying to get Mrs. Astor's attention too?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Camera One

[brisbydog]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:53 AM, Enigma X said:

The reason I asked is because in season one I thought they said he was in his late 20s, and I am like the hell he is. But maybe I remembered wrong. 

 

 

His mother mentioned getting pregnant 40 years ago in season 1

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

Does anyone know how the allocation of opera boxes actually worked back then.  To me, it's a simple formula of supply vs. demand.  If there are 50 boxes, and 50 families "own" them (or whatever term you use of having rights to a box) then how is not having a box a "snub"?  Could the Opera simply bump a current box holder to give the box to another family, or would that be a horrible breach of protocol? Were there bidding wars at the start of each season, or did having a box give you right of first refusal for the next season?

I know it looks like I'm getting caught up in the details, but it makes a difference for how I see Bertha's quest.  Is it a reasonable quest?  Is this truly a snub?  Or did people just have to get on the list and and wait their turn, and Bertha wants special privileges?

 

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I know that families handed down their boxes from generation to generation, making it near impossible for anybody new to get a box. Mrs Astor remarked about someone that they had been on the waiting list a long time. I guess people just hoped for a family to die out. :D I also wonder if box-holders could bequeath their boxes to non-family members (if there was no family). I suppose there was always SOME family.

I kinda think that Bertha is being unreasonable since there are a limited amount of boxes, but of course she thinks money is going to buy her whatever she wants.

That's why, I think, the real story is the Met, which is being built to hold more people. Old Money wants the Academy to stay "the" place to see opera, but New Money is just going to create their own place that winds up destroying the academy, which no longer exists. Bertha will no longer have to be part of the Old Money crowd if she can best them.

Though it might be more interesting conflict-wise if she stays on the side of the academy and loses, ironically, to new money.

[RachelKM]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

Does anyone know how the allocation of opera boxes actually worked back then.  To me, it's a simple formula of supply vs. demand.  If there are 50 boxes, and 50 families "own" them (or whatever term you use of having rights to a box) then how is not having a box a "snub"? 

I thought they specifically said a box had become available and went to someone else. That said, Bertha is still being a bit unreasonable.  As Mrs. Astor said, other people had been on the waiting list for much longer than the Russells, presumably including the family that were granted the available box. 

But as someone up thread said, Bertha wants to be Mrs. Astor, not merely one of her accepted flock (I assume she wants this for two reasons, one out of ego and one out of fear of being vulnerable to Mrs. Astor deciding to shun her at some point). In Bertha's mind, being the new Mrs. Astor means not waiting in line. She doesn't ask to be let in; she informs people that she is inclined to be there and they are excited to accept her.

Edited November 6, 2023 by RachelKM

[Salacious Kitty]

Can someone please start a new episode thread? I would, but I don't think my guide is showing the entire description. 

We all thank you, whoever you are! ❤️

[chaifan]

5 hours ago, brisbydog said:

His mother mentioned getting pregnant 40 years ago in season 1

This comment was about Oscar & Agnes.  I'm glad we actually have an age for Oscar.  Oliver being 40 is more realistic than some of our guesses of late 20's or early 30's, as Agnes is in the 70-ish age range.  But, at the same time, it's slightly unrealistic, as it would make Agnes a first time mother at about 30 in the mid 1800's. It would make more sense for Agnes to have had a kid in her 20's, and Oscar to be 50.

And, it makes the Oscar wooing Gladys storyline even creepier than I had originally felt it to be, when I thought Oscar was supposed to be late 20's/early 30's (yet played by a 45 year old actor).  Now we have a 40 year old wooing a maybe 18 year old?  ick.  And, a 40 year old that doesn't have any type of job and just lives off his mother.  wow, what a catch.  /s

This is one of those things that just bugs me, because it would have been so easy to write and cast around these issues.  The character of Oscar could have been a nephew or even great nephew of Agnes, and been aged in his late 20's.  He could still be her sole heir, maybe even a ward or adopted son, with a backstory of his parents dying early in his life and Agnes taking him in as her own.  I could understand how Fellowes really wanted Christine Baranski as his Agnes, but I feel Oscar - at any age - could be played by just about anyone.

 

 

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

This comment was about Oscar & Agnes.  I'm glad we actually have an age for Oscar.  Oliver being 40 is more realistic than some of our guesses of late 20's or early 30's, as Agnes is in the 70-ish age range.  But, at the same time, it's slightly unrealistic, as it would make Agnes a first time mother at about 30 in the mid 1800's. It would make more sense for Agnes to have had a kid in her 20's, and Oscar to be 50.

Getting pregnant at 30 is possible. Given the time period (the 1800s) I found it highly plausible that she had other children who did not survive. In other words, there were other children, he was just the first to survive and grow up to become an adult. 

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

And, a 40 year old that doesn't have any type of job and just lives off his mother.  wow, what a catch.  /s

I could have sworn he worked in a bank. We never see him at work, but I am almost sure he has a decent respectable job.  

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

This is one of those things that just bugs me, because it would have been so easy to write and cast around these issues.  The character of Oscar could have been a nephew or even great nephew of Agnes, and been aged in his late 20's.  He could still be her sole heir, maybe even a ward or adopted son, with a backstory of his parents dying early in his life and Agnes taking him in as her own.  I could understand how Fellowes really wanted Christine Baranski as his Agnes, but I feel Oscar - at any age - could be played by just about anyone.

I agree with this. I think nephew or great nephew would work best. People did tend to have larger families.  

[Meedis]

46 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Getting pregnant at 30 is possible. Given the time period (the 1800s) I found it highly plausible that she had other children who did not survive. In other words, there were other children, he was just the first to survive and grow up to become an adult. 

In Season 1 when Peggy is forced to tell Agnes her story about her child, Agnes said as much that she understood the loss of losing a child, which confirmed that she had other children that did not survive.

[Alexander Pope]

"The films and series about Austen's novels give a wrong impression - she wasn't romantic at all. Men who were sexually attractive, Wickham, Willoughby and Henry Crawford, were villains."

A friend of mine who is an Austen expert argues very compellingly that Mr. Knightley is both hot and good in bed, and you can tell in the dancing scenes.

 

[Camera One]

I know it is common in a lot of shows these days (especially on the old CW), but I find it distracting when half the screen is out of focus.  Especially in a period drama where I want to see the surroundings.  It seems more glaring this season than last.

[Ilovepie]

On 11/5/2023 at 8:17 AM, Camera One said:

I think they also need to show a bit more of her relationship with the other women with "new" money.  What do they think of her?  Is she inviting them to dinner too because last season, she was simply obsessed with being accepted by the old money people.  The way it's portrayed, she isn't their "leader" either.  Clearly, there were some power women in that arena who spearheaded the new opera house, but we have not seen them or their influence.  Aren't they trying to get Mrs. Astor's attention too?

THIS. I think my problem with this show is that there are like six upper class characters. It's New York! Where are others in "The Four Hundred"?!? It's too myopic and tiny in scope.

I find most of these characters annoying, but whoever said it's costume porn was right. And the Russel's houses. Wow!

I agree with Peggy - the three of them need to get away from each other. It was a relief to see Peggy with Marian. I hope that is the end of that story line for Peggy.

I know he was in one minute of screen time this episode, but I am still Team Larry for Marian - he is the least annoying character on this show.

[norcalgal]

On 11/1/2023 at 1:53 PM, Roseanna said:

I wayched the last episodes of the first season anew and when Oscar spoke to his lover about his reason to woo Gladys, he didn't mention about "family responsiblity" or respecting his mother. His motives were, first, that he hasn't enough money to continue his lifestyle, so he must marry money, and second, that a young man can live like he has done so far, but to an older man it raises suspicions.  

I think there was a deliberate decision to un-villainize Oscar this season compared to S1. As posted above, his reasons for pursuing Gladys S1 seemed way more self serving, that he was focused solely on how a marriage to her could benefit him. imho, the producers/writers felt he came across as too villainous, so softened him this season (or at least for this episode) to present his reasons for pursuing Gladys as more multi-faceted. 

From Glady's's POV, yes, she can see from her parents' marriage what a loving, supportive marriage between a man and woman looks like, but from an IRL POV, those kinds of marriages for the upper class were rare. Marriage to Oscar, while not fantastic, would be a pretty damn decent marriage for that time period.

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:43 PM, Pop Tart said:

I figured she was his daughter but don’t think we actually heard that discussion between them, right? We did see him lurking near her home and she did finally confront him, but can’t remember past that. It sounded like her husband was going to try to get rid of the servant/dad (Watson?) Hope he doesn’t get him fired. 

Yes, we did.  In one of the lurks, as she's standing on the steps about to go into her foyer, she whirls on him and says something like hey perv, I've peeped you stalking me.  Who are you and what do you want?  He introduces himself with the name we all know him by, then tells her what his name used to be.  Then you see a look of recognition on her face.  She recoils and it gets hazy for me after that.   I don't know if she picks up her floofy petticoats and runs or says something to him.  My memory really wants to say she told him not to ever darken her doorstep again or some gone with the wind shit.  Either way, she knows who is otherwise the dinner scene where she tells her husband that bald guy from dinner with the gravy boat?  Yeah bro, that's my dad.   She is young still, so she presumably would not have recognized his face from memory. 

[Roseanna]

Rethinking about Peggy's child.

It really seems that Fellowes changed his mind. As the first season ended with "my baby lives", then it feels like pulling the rug under the audience to begin the second season with "he suddenly died".

Besides, it would have made a much better story to let Peggy first decide to get her baby back - and then begin to ponder whether it was really best to him to take him from the only parents he had known in his parents. 

I don't even like the whole plotline as it made Peggy a completely helpless victim. It would have been much better if her husband (who after Peggy was uneducated had no prospects) would have either died or left her or been unable to provide the family, so Peggy would have to make a decision about her own and the baby's future herself. 

Now the whole blame was put on the door of Peggy's father. Although he acted wrongly, it was completely put aside that he did so (excpet lies) in the context of the society at the time. 

On the top of all, Peggy even accused his father for the baby's death, as if he wouldn't have got infected later as infant mortality was still high. 

It's also completely ahistorical that even if Felllowes described Eastern service, it didn't influence on Peggy nor her mother in any way to forginess nor accepting "God's will".  

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Rethinking about Peggy's child.

It really seems that Fellowes changed his mind. As the first season ended with "my baby lives", then it feels like pulling the rug under the audience to begin the second season with "he suddenly died".

Besides, it would have made a much better story to let Peggy first decide to get her baby back - and then begin to ponder whether it was really best to him to take him from the only parents he had known in his parents. 

I don't even like the whole plotline as it made Peggy a completely helpless victim. It would have been much better if her husband (who after Peggy was uneducated had no prospects) would have either died or left her or been unable to provide the family, so Peggy would have to make a decision about her own and the baby's future herself. 

Now the whole blame was put on the door of Peggy's father. Although he acted wrongly, it was completely put aside that he did so (excpet lies) in the context of the society at the time. 

On the top of all, Peggy even accused his father for the baby's death, as if he wouldn't have got infected later as infant mortality was still high. 

It's also completely ahistorical that even if Felllowes described Eastern service, it didn't influence on Peggy nor her mother in any way to forginess nor accepting "God's will".  

Yes, it really was an amazing example of creating a situation with a lot of emotional complications and then ignoring them in favor of a soap opera twist with a mustache twirling villain that just puts the whole thing to rest without it really affecting Peggy or showing her character. She's just angry at her father or not. Other than that she's still mourning a baby she never knew that died. Her husband doesn't seem important either way.

[RachelKM]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It really seems that Fellowes changed his mind. As the first season ended with "my baby lives", then it feels like pulling the rug under the audience to begin the second season with "he suddenly died".

Besides, it would have made a much better story to let Peggy first decide to get her baby back - and then begin to ponder whether it was really best to him to take him from the only parents he had known in his parents. 

I agree that it would be a good and interesting story for Peggy. But it is a story for a different show. To really flesh it out and do it properly would essentially consum her and isolate her from the other cast and their plotlines. 

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It really seems that Fellowes changed his mind. As the first season ended with "my baby lives", then it feels like pulling the rug under the audience to begin the second season with "he suddenly died".

It felt like an abrupt reset to me, back to square one.  Peggy again works for Marian's aunt.  It rather shortcuts the development of her relationship with her parents, too.  It was one of the central "mysteries" of Season 1, so it was glaring when it was wrapped up so perfunctorily.  

1 minute ago, RachelKM said:

But it is a story for a different show. To really flesh it out and do it properly would essentially consum her and isolate her from the other cast and their plotlines. 

This was probably the main problem.  It seems to show poor planning on Fellowes' part.

[Scarlett45]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:05 AM, Roseanna said:

Agnes wants Marian to marry a man from an "old money" family, but so far she hasn't done anything to help her to find one. Why didn't she arrange parties or at least ask Oscar to bring eligible men to her house?

She did. In season 1 she had Oscar introduce her to his friend (whom the audience knows is his boyfriend)- the good looking blond guy. He was polite but didn’t lead Marian on and it was clear even to her he was not interested. She’s sent Marion to opera and various parties to meet men- it just takes a while and there are not THAT many eligible men in their social group to choose from. Marion has likely been with them less than a year. 

 

On 11/2/2023 at 7:18 AM, Roseanna said:

I understand that Fellowes wants to merge characters' plots, but could they really be friends in 1880s and even sat together in restaurants?

Black restaurants sure- which where they were. 

 

On 11/3/2023 at 11:48 AM, sistermagpie said:

Though one could probably also explain it as Peggy being black means that Agnes doesn't consider she needs to follow the same rules as someone like her, because Peggy is outside of society no matter what.

Basically. Agnes knows there are certain rules for the Marions of the world and other rules for the Peggys. Peggy is never going to be expected to follow the same rules Marion does and she will never have the same opportunities. But Agnes can have sympathy for her on a human level and want her to have her “best chance”. Marion’s best chance is making a good marriage with an old money man, NOT working as an art teacher. 
 

I am glad the show is back, and I am glad for the costume and architecture porn. I do think Peggy moving back with Agnes/Ada is a reset, I want her working at the paper with that hot editor and see where it goes from there. But I get that they want her in the main action, and she “grounds” Marion, who’s very sweet but doesn’t have the life experience Peggy has. I am not a fan of Oscar (I think he’s snakey), but I didn’t want to see him hurt (that must’ve been scary and awful)- his ex had a point, but I understand where Oscar is coming from. You have to do your duty to your family and produce heirs (he’s right he’s the only son), and I don’t think he would be mean or cruel or even unkind to his wife. I could see him even becoming friends with her and being pleasant company. But it’s an AWFUL situation unless that’s what the young woman wants (she’s gay or being forced to marry because she’s already pregnant and wants the social protection). I said last season that Gladys grew up with parents who were a love match, she might not know WHY Oscar isn’t into her, but she will be able to tell he’s not “into her”. 

[taanja]

On 11/5/2023 at 7:03 PM, chaifan said:

And, it makes the Oscar wooing Gladys storyline even creepier than I had originally felt it to be, when I thought Oscar was supposed to be late 20's/early 30's (yet played by a 45 year old actor).  Now we have a 40 year old wooing a maybe 18 year old?  ick.  And, a 40 year old that doesn't have any type of job and just lives off his mother.  wow, what a catch.  /s

 

 

 

This show takes place in the 1880's/ Correct?

Well Grover Cleveland was President in 1885 - 1889 (his first stint) he was elected twice -- he served two terms as President (non consecutively) He also served as Governor of NY and mayor of Buffalo among other elected jobs)

Anyway my point - he married while in office to his Ward -- yes his legal ward -- who was 28 years younger! He was 49 and she was 21.

Theses characters supposedly live in NY -- this was not only common knowledge -- no one thought it was weird or wrong or bad. the public encouraged the marriage!

So Oscar being in his 40's and Gladys being only 18 or so would not be considered out of the norm.

 

[Salacious Kitty]

This show is currently in 1883, so predating Grover Cleveland. 

[Roseanna]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:26 AM, Scarlett45 said:

Marion’s best chance is making a good marriage with an old money man, NOT working as an art teacher. 

Let's put it bluntly what "a good marriage means" à la Agnes means: Marian has to surrerender her body and her possiblity to decide about her own life (and about her eventual children's live) in excange of maintenance of her husband. As she has no money, she isn't a great catch in the society. 

Of course working as an art teacher one day in the week isn't an option, either, because she can't earn her keep. It would be another matter if his father had taken care that she had got a good education and a real profession. Then she could make a real choice.

 

 

[Scarlett45]

37 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Let's put it bluntly what "a good marriage means" à la Agnes means: Marian has to surrerender her body and her possiblity to decide about her own life (and about her eventual children's live) in excange of maintenance of her husband. As she has no money, she isn't a great catch in the society. 

Of course working as an art teacher one day in the week isn't an option, either, because she can't earn her keep. It would be another matter if his father had taken care that she had got a good education and a real profession. Then she could make a real choice.

 

 

Absolutely. But Marion’s father didn’t leave her any money, didn’t grant her a good education, didn’t find her a husband before he died. 
 

At the end of the day you can 1. Work, 2. Marry, or 3. Be kept. Marion has no money but she is young, with a pleasant personality and very pretty with good breeding. Agnes is going to use all her social capital to try to find her a 2nd or 3rd son in the proper social group who won’t mind her having no money and will appreciate her other attributes.
 

Last thing Agnes wants for her is a marriage like she had, but marriage is still her best shot. 

[Roseanna]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

At the end of the day you can 1. Work, 2. Marry, or 3. Be kept. Marion has no money but she is young, with a pleasant personality and very pretty with good breeding. Agnes is going to use all her social capital to try to find her a 2nd or 3rd son in the proper social group who won’t mind her having no money and will appreciate her other attributes.

Wouldn't 2nd and 3rd sons who have less money (or was it so in the US?) want to marry a heiress? Instead, a widower whose first wife was rich would probably be the best option.

I would prefer a man with a middle class profession, a doctor or a layer (they all aren't like Raikes) who can support a family but Agnes doesn't approve.

[RachelKM]

16 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Wouldn't 2nd and 3rd sons who have less money (or was it so in the US?) want to marry a heiress? Instead, a widower whose first wife was rich would probably be the best option.

In the US, that wasn't necessarily the case.  The younger sons trope has to do with British nobility inheritance rules in which land and a certain amount of the estate capital was entailed and could not be divided among the heirs. The entailed portion of the estate passed under the ruled of male preference primogeniture, usually male only primogeniture. Any remaining children would inherit from what was available outside the entail and whatever funds may have been set aside in the mother's marriage contract. 

There has never been statutory male preference primogeniture in the US. Though it was still a common practice in most wealthy families to prefer the eldest son in inheritance, that was not a strict rule and it more had to do with expectations of running the family dynasty (since the  majority of US wealth, even "Old Money," came through some sort of industry). And eldest son often got the family house. In any event, without entailments, the family could divide up money more or less evenly if they chose, even if the only one got the house. 

So a younger son might have less wealth, but would not need an heiress. Or, if he did, the elder son would likely be in the same boat. 

[Scarlett45]

43 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Wouldn't 2nd and 3rd sons who have less money (or was it so in the US?) want to marry a heiress? Instead, a widower whose first wife was rich would probably be the best option.

I would prefer a man with a middle class profession, a doctor or a layer (they all aren't like Raikes) who can support a family but Agnes doesn't approve.

I was thinking a second or third son has less duty to uphold the family status/lifestyle. 
 

No Agnes wouldn’t approve of a professional man who was financially stable but had genuine affection for Marion. There are more of them than upper class men. 

10 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

In the US, that wasn't necessarily the case.  The younger sons trope has to do with British nobility inheritance rules in which land and a certain amount of the estate capital was entailed and could not be divided among the heirs. The entailed portion of the estate passed under the ruled of male preference primogeniture, usually male only primogeniture. Any remaining children would inherit from what was available outside the entail and whatever funds may have been set aside in the mother's marriage contract. 

There has never been statutory male preference primogeniture in the US. Though it was still a common practice in most wealthy families to prefer the eldest son in inheritance, that was not a strict rule and it more had to do with expectations of running the family dynasty (since the  majority of US wealth, even "Old Money," came through some sort of industry). And eldest son often got the family house. In any event, without entailments, the family could divide up money more or less evenly if they chose, even if the only one got the house. 

So a younger son might have less wealth, but would not need an heiress. Or, if he did, the elder son would likely be in the same boat. 

Yes that’s what I was thinking. 

[Sarah 103]

On 11/16/2023 at 12:17 PM, Roseanna said:

Of course working as an art teacher one day in the week isn't an option, either, because she can't earn her keep.

My understanding wasn't that Marion was going to earn a living and spend the rest of her life as an art teacher. I thought this was something interesting to fill her time. An opportunity presented it and she took it. I do not see her actively looking for it or seeking it out, but someone may have mentioned it to her/asked her and she said yes.  

On 11/16/2023 at 12:56 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Agnes is going to use all her social capital to try to find her a 2nd or 3rd son in the proper social group who won’t mind her having no money and will appreciate her other attributes.

Is the idea the first son is going to inherit the business (or however the family originally made/currently makes money) so he needs the ultimate/perfect upper-class wife to fulfill that role? We know that is not who Marion is, which would explain why the 1st son is not a possibility. Or, is it the 1st son is looking for new money to add a quick influx to the family fortune? Is there less pressure on the 2nd or 3rd son in terms of who they marry, as long as they marry someone from a respectable background who will not cause a scandal? 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

My understanding wasn't that Marion was going to earn a living and spend the rest of her life as an art teacher. I thought this was something interesting to fill her time. An opportunity presented it and she took it. I do not see her actively looking for it or seeking it out, but someone may have mentioned it to her/asked her and she said yes.  

I don't believe that getting a profession is her aim, either, but I think she should, if she doesn't want to accept any proposal from any man in order to get a livng. Or does she want to live in Oscar and his wife's househould as a spinster aunt after Agnes dies?  

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

My understanding wasn't that Marion was going to earn a living and spend the rest of her life as an art teacher. I thought this was something interesting to fill her time. An opportunity presented it and she took it. I do not see her actively looking for it or seeking it out, but someone may have mentioned it to her/asked her and she said yes.  

Is the idea the first son is going to inherit the business (or however the family originally made/currently makes money) so he needs the ultimate/perfect upper-class wife to fulfill that role? We know that is not who Marion is, which would explain why the 1st son is not a possibility. Or, is it the 1st son is looking for new money to add a quick influx to the family fortune? Is there less pressure on the 2nd or 3rd son in terms of who they marry, as long as they marry someone from a respectable background who will not cause a scandal? 

Yes. 2nd and 3rd sons have more leeway to choose a spouse for personal reasons. She has to be suitable of course but not meet every single requirement of the parents. That’s why I think a man in that position (who’s of good character of course) is Marion’s best chance (and Agnes agrees). Or a widower who is older but not terribly old (so perhaps 40s, not in his 60s), who won’t care she has no dowry (again, of good character with whom Marion gets along with).