S02.E01: You Don't Even Like Opera

[AntFTW]

Quote

Agnes shares news of her nephew Dashiell's imminent arrival in New York. Bertha decides to back the new Metropolitan Opera House.

Air date: October 29, 2023

[sistermagpie]

My favorite thing in this ep was the dress the one woman--is it Mrs. Fish?--was wearing at the opera party. She looked like a big slice of red velvet cake and I loved it.

Marion was a little better in this ep, at least. She seemed more passionate about teaching watercolors than she ever was about Mr. Rakes. But I'm ready to be bored by her again later. And at least the opera house was a real thing where the stakes, such as they are, are more clear.

[AntFTW]

1) So Peggy’s child died before she was able to get to him. What a way to rip my heart out at the start of the show.

2) Oscar is snubbed by Gladys. I wonder what changed. The actor looks a lot older than he did in the first season.

3) They’re letting Larry get some architectural experience with the Russell’s new Newport house. 

4) I couldn’t help but think at the top of the episode that this show must cost a fortune to produce.

5) Marian seems to have learned some lessons in friendship since last season. Her and Peggy going out to lunch shows a different dynamic from last season. This restaurant is clearly on the black side of town so Marian must have commuted for some time.

6) As selfish as we know that Oscar van Rhijn is, his talk with Gladys seemed desperate but rather cute and sweet. However, I hope that Gladys isn’t stupid, that she understands what she wants and ponders if she could get that from Oscar.

7) This was a good opening episode. It made me more excited for the season. Now, they’re going to age me by making me wait each week, and maybe longer if they delay episodes for the holidays. That trailer at the end though... 👀

[peridot]

I teared up a bit at what happened to Peggy's son.  I'm glad that her father's actions weren't brushed over, I would have scratched out his eyes if I had to live in the same house as him. 

I don't feel sorry for Oscar at all.  Since when is he so in love with Gladys? I thought he was gay, not bisexual.

Poor barons, their workers want fair and safe practices in the workplace! 

The Russell's new house in Newport was gorgeous.  I really enjoyed the architecture and clothes in this episode.  The ending with the opera setup was pretty.

[txhorns79]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She seemed more passionate about teaching watercolors than she ever was about Mr. Rakes.

I appreciated that Agnes reacted to a one day a week job teaching watercolors at a school like she just caught Marion selling crack to vagabonds from the steps of the servant's entrance. 

I also enjoyed Mrs. Astor's face during that whole opera production at the Russell house.  I would tell Mrs. Russell to watch her back.  

I felt for Peggy, but glad that storyline is wrapped up without having to weigh her down with a kid. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, peridot said:

I don't feel sorry for Oscar at all.  Since when is he so in love with Gladys? I thought he was gay, not bisexual.

I don't think he is in love with her. He still just seems to think she's his best bet, for some reason. She's better than getting beaten up in alleys (which is still going to happen, really).

[Salacious Kitty]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think he is in love with her. He still just seems to think she's his best bet, for some reason. She's better than getting beaten up in alleys (which is still going to happen, really).

While he tells Gladys that she can pretty much do what she wants, I think Oscar believes he can control her to a certain extent because she's so young. 

[AntFTW]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think he is in love with her. He still just seems to think she's his best bet, for some reason. She's better than getting beaten up in alleys (which is still going to happen, really).

Oscar assumes Gladys is young and dumb, dumb enough to where he could cover up his lifestyle and still continue his lifestyle while being married to her. Additionally, she's a lot richer than many other options.

Edited October 30, 2023 by AntFTW

[txhorns79]

1 minute ago, Salacious Kitty said:

While he tells Gladys that she can pretty much do what she wants, I think Oscar believes he can control her to a certain extent because she's so young. 

I was thinking it was less about controlling her so much as telling her what she can get with him without telling her about the giant tradeoff she'd be making in exchange for all that freedom. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Marion was a little better in this ep, at least. She seemed more passionate about teaching watercolors than she ever was about Mr. Rakes.

True. But thats an incredibly low bar. 

Speaking of Marion's lovelife - Hey guys, did you know that Dashelle and Marion aren't related?! If they weren't telegraphing a relationship complete with adorable daughter who already likes her, i don't know what that was.  Sure, it's practically a Hallmark set up. But this show is all but paint by numbers when it comes to romance tropes.

54 minutes ago, peridot said:

I don't feel sorry for Oscar at all.  Since when is he so in love with Gladys? I thought he was gay, not bisexual.

As other have said, he isn't in love with Gladys.  He just thinks she young and sheltered enough that she wouldn't suspect anything if he was super considerate of her delicate sensibilities and her privacy when it came to marital relations nor that he seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time with his friends... so to speak.

They seem to have toned down his calculating air this season. (Last year he was just shy of twisting his mustache while plotting with Turner.) Now he seems to be trying to convince himself as much as her that they would "deal well together" and in offering her personal freedom, he's also offering her something above most men. 

Honestly, he's not wholly wrong. But it's dishonest and may not be what she wants.  I'm sure she'd appreciate autonomy, something many men of the time wouldn't dream of offering. But she might wish for genuine affection, at least, if not love. And even if she would choose freedom over love, that's not what he's presenting it as. He's pretending to offer both.

All in all, this was a promising start to the season.  I could have done with at least two less references to Raikes. But most everything else seemed more settled and natural. Last season felt almost frenetic in its attempt to cram every bloody theme from the era into 8 episodes. They're mostly still there. But it didn't feel as forced. 

And finally, the important part. Loved the Easter dresses and hats for the NY scenes. And yay Gilded Age architecture.  And yay Harry for progressing with his dream. 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by RachelKM

[Sailorgirl26]

Am I the only one who thinks the plotlines take second place to the clothing and house porn???

Every week there seems to be one standout outfit--usually Bertha's--this week it was the blue and white "nautical" dress she was wearing in Newport when walking with Nathan Lane to go inspect her summer cottage. The way the navy blue pleats contrasted with the solid white of the skirt were incredible, and then the v strips meeting at the center of her breastbone with that amazing cameo brooch--I would kill to be able to wear that dress--without the corsets and waist cinchers and other beauty is pain foundational nonsense. But then I'm sure it wouldn't look the same, so....there's that. 😄

And what a great show on whic to be a location scout--this Newport Cottage or that one? Decisions, decisions!! Let's just use them all for different rooms and reasons!!! 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[Brn2bwild]

A criticism from last season that I'm carrying over to this one is that the Russells need a real weakness.  Being "new money" isn't it.  Right now Bertha smiles like a cat that ate the canary, swanning around New York and Newport, throwing money at everything and everyone inevitably bows to her.  Let her and George have real vulnerabilities.  

[Yeah No]

And we're back...

I thought Marion's acting was better too but as others have mentioned, the bar is low and that's still not saying much.

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I was thinking it was less about controlling her so much as telling her what she can get with him without telling her about the giant tradeoff she'd be making in exchange for all that freedom. 

I agree that it was less about controlling her than giving her the freedom to have her own separate life from him that he won't complain about in exchange for him having a separate life.  The sad part about it is that back then this kind of thing often happened, especially with society men that had family reputations they felt under immense pressure to protect.  Heck, I knew a Mormon guy once my age that did that.  Only in his case he eventually realized he couldn't be that untrue to himself or someone else and got divorced.  Hopefully it won't come to that here.  I don't get the feeling Oscar is going to be able to fake it for that long before he meets the true love of his life and realizes what a mistake he's made.  Hopefully she will realize something's amiss before marrying him.

3 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Am I the only one who thinks the plotlines take second place to the clothing and house porn???

Hah, well there's also the "church porn" for geeks of that kind of architecture.   My New York church architecture historian husband said that the church that was supposed to be St. Thomas Episcopal in this episode was not even in NYC let alone was it St. Thomas, but he said they were actually being true to the time period in not using the real church because the one that exists today was built in 1911 after the previous one burned down.  He was amazed because the church they used actually looked a lot like the pictures he's seen of the original church.

While that was commendable I find it curious that the van Rhijns would attend an Episcopal Church if they are old money Dutch.  I would think they would either be Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed and that Agnes would insist that they stay true to their heritage on that.  But I guess most people wouldn't even notice or care about that and it fit with the storyline to have them there.  And there were always Dutch that followed other religions, so I'm willing to buy it.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Yeah No

[Haleth]

Great start!  The opening scene with all the glorious hats!  Why don't we wear glorious hats anymore?

I adore Aunt Agnes and her one liners.  Oh, the horror of Marion teaching!  What a scandal!

I can't help but love Bertha too.  She has the subtlety of a freight train but she won't be ignored.  Yes, that blue and white gown was stunning.  

I could do without the downstairs drama.  I still don't really care (or remember much) about them, but I did chuckle at the gentle teasing of the French chef from Kansas.

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Oscar is snubbed by Gladys. I wonder what changed.

Bertha was withholding his letters to Gladys.  She thought he'd been ignoring her. 

To be honest the deal he will offer her will not be unlike many marriages of the time and class.  (I know we've often compared Gladys to Consuela Vanderbilt.)  The marriage is a footstep in society and a way to create heirs.  Other than that the men have their lovers and the women have their parties.  No one would bat an eye except for the fact that finding Oscar with a male lover would be too scandalous for anyone to overlook.  Agnes may find that Marion having an actual job is the least of her concerns.

[Roseanna]

Peggy seemed extremely selfish by saying that she would have taken her son from her good foster parents - she put her own feelings before what was best for her child. By separating him from the only parents had had known she would have caused him a severe trauma. It's again the same mistake Edith did - and not once but twice - in Downton Abbey.

As for Peggy's father, I don't think it's right to judge him according to the modern standards. He wasn't wrong to believe that his daughter would have had a harsh life by eloping with a man without profession and fortune. However, most fathers would have accepted faut accompli and consented to provide for the new family. He chose otherwise and succeeded to nullify the marriage. He wasn't wrong to be believe that Peggy's life as a single mum who everyone would have despised would have been difficult, but he did wrong to act secretly - it wasn't his choice to make.    

But people make mistakes. I guess it's easier for Peggy to blame her father for everything. At least the baby's death was a coincidence. And how can such unforgiveness be connected with religion according to which f.ex. Saint Peter was forgiven? 

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Oscar is snubbed by Gladys. I wonder what changed. 

Gladys's mother had ordered her to ignore her - as Bertha was present, Gladys couldn't but obey. 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, RachelKM said:

As other have said, he isn't in love with Gladys.  He just thinks she young and sheltered enough that she wouldn't suspect anything if he was super considerate of her delicate sensibilities and her privacy when it came to marital relations nor that he seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time with his friends... so to speak.

They seem to have toned down his calculating air this season. (Last year he was just shy of twisting his mustache while plotting with Turner.) Now he seems to be trying to convince himself as much as her that they would "deal well together" and in offering her personal freedom, he's also offering her something above most men. 

Honestly, he's not wholly wrong. But it's dishonest and may not be what she wants.  I'm sure she'd appreciate autonomy, something many men of the time wouldn't dream of offering. But she might wish for genuine affection, at least, if not love. And even if she would choose freedom over love, that's not what he's presenting it as. He's pretending to offer both.

A good analysis. 

Evidently Gladys isn't in love with him, either. Her chief motive get away from her contolling mum (not a rate motive in that age). 

Unfortunately Gladys is too young to realize that however harsh Betha's restrictions seem now, they are a small price for a chance to meet many eligible men in NYC and Europe - and then make her choice.

I don't think her father wants to put Gladys's wish for the will of his wife he adores - especially as she is too young. At least I expect him to make an investigate about Oscar's background.

It's sad to see that Marion and Ada are so blind about Oscar and thus maybe help his schemes towards Gladys. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Roseanna
Changed Agnes for Ada

[Fake Jan Brady]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I don't get the feeling Oscar is going to be able to fake it for that long before he meets the true love of his life and realizes what a mistake he's made.  

Since he's clearly pining for that hot piece John Adams I'm pretty sure Oscar already knows what he'll be missing.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I agree that it was less about controlling her than giving her the freedom to have her own separate life from him that he won't complain about in exchange for him having a separate life. 

But Glaydys is far too young to make such an agreement whose terms she doesn't understand. 

What if she fell in love with somebody and they wouldn't content with with secret moments? What if they had children whose father was officially somenody else?   

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I appreciated that Agnes reacted to a one day a week job teaching watercolors at a school like she just caught Marion selling crack to vagabonds from the steps of the servant's entrance. 

Isn't it sad that the upper-class women had less freedom that middle-class women who could already be teachers, artists etc?

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

A criticism from last season that I'm carrying over to this one is that the Russells need a real weakness.  Being "new money" isn't it.  Right now Bertha smiles like a cat that ate the canary, swanning around New York and Newport, throwing money at everything and everyone inevitably bows to her.  Let her and George have real vulnerabilities.  

Well, they have a vulnerability - George has made a fortune but he can also lose it and if he does, goodby to Bertha's social ambitions.

Also, Bertha plans to marry Gladys with an "old money" man in order further her own social standing. What if Oscar persuades  Gladys to elope with him (or Gladys marries Oscar but elopes later with somebody else)? 

[sugarbaker design]

21 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

What if Oscar persuades  Gladys to elope with him (or Gladys marries Oscar but elopes later with somebody else)? 

A major component of Oscar's plan is getting Gladys's money.  If they elope there's a good chance the Russell's would not honor that union with a sizable dowry.

[sugarbaker design]

33 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Isn't it sad that the upper-class women had less freedom that middle-class women who could already be teachers, artists etc?

Less freedom, way more money.  Gladys has never had to wash a dress, sweep a floor, chop an onion or make a bed.  Poor thing.  Teachers and artists have freedom but will always live below the poverty line.  For all women, marriage was a ticket out of poverty.

[Enigma X]

How old is Oscar supposed to be again?

[amarante]

Oscar didn't suddenly fall in love with her - she was rich and Oscar has lineage.

He was proposing essentially a marriage of convenience where she would be his beard and she would be free to do exactly what she wanted which would have included affairs.

Ironically and sadly marriage to Oscar would have probably been much better than the marriages that the real life Gladys entered into. The nouveau riche fabulously wealthy heiresses were not married for love or even affection. Many of them were forced into awful marriages with penniless English aristocrats.

Edith Wharton's novel The Buccaneers - Consuelo Vandebilt was unhappily married to the Duke of Marlborough. Her dowry of $2.5 million restored Blenheim/ FWIW, in 2023 that dowry was approximately $75 MILLION DOLLARS.

Part of the backstory of Downton Abby, the characters (the current Lord & Countess) had married in an exchange of American title for money. Her money was used to subsidize and support the estate. Cora's background was nouveau rich and as I recall she was even half Jewish - making her even more unacceptable. Of course in the fantasy of Downton, they fell in love and her an almost perfect marriage unlike the true reality of most of these marriages with the trade of money for lineage. And of course in one season he managed to lose all of her money. 

[Roseanna]

46 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Less freedom, way more money.  Gladys has never had to wash a dress, sweep a floor, chop an onion or make a bed.  Poor thing.  Teachers and artists have freedom but will always live below the poverty line.  For all women, marriage was a ticket out of poverty.

It already 1880is - marriage wasn't the only option as women could study and have a profession. Teachers had a decent salary and had a servant (or a relative) to do homework for them.

In my couyntry a female teacher grounded a co-op school. In 1907 she became a MP.

 

 

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Fake Jan Brady said:

Since he's clearly pining for that hot piece John Adams I'm pretty sure Oscar already knows what he'll be missing.

Oh for sure, but I think he may be underestimating how long or how well he'll be able to stand missing it.

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Well, they have a vulnerability - George has made a fortune but he can also lose it and if he does, goodby to Bertha's social ambitions.

Also, Bertha plans to marry Gladys with an "old money" man in order further her own social standing. What if Oscar persuades  Gladys to elope with him (or Gladys marries Oscar but elopes later with somebody else)? 

The problem is all of the vulnerabilities are on the outside, and they're not terribly interesting, either.

Yes, George could lose his fortune, but we all know on a show like this, he won't - or if he does, he'll build it back really quickly.  Yes, Oscar could elope with Gladys, but he won't.  Or if he does, it will only be after he has somehow turned himself into a worthy husband.  

I'm more referring to vulnerabilities inherent to their characters.  I suppose Bertha's smugness could prove to be her downfall, but I'm not even sure the show wants us to think it's a failing. 

 

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

It already 1880is - marriage wasn't the only option as women could study and have a profession. Teachers had a decent salary and had a servant (or a relative) to do homework for them.

In my couyntry a female teacher grounded a co-op school. In 1907 she became a MP.

 

 

In Toronto the Women's College Hospital was founded in 1883, because women doctors could not find work in other hospitals, as I understand it.  Women were writing novels, and probably running small businesses, , and also working at many professions. We can probably agree that it wasn't easy and that many of them had to undergo prejudice and hardship along the way, and sometimes had to start their own hospitals in order to work in their professions. 

That said, a lot of the daughters of wealthy families, like the children of the aristocracy, were expected to make advantageous marriages for the family. It was a different kind of family structure than most of us are used to, I think. Gladys seems to be caught up in these expectations and her options are limited by them.

 

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I appreciated that Agnes reacted to a one day a week job teaching watercolors at a school like she just caught Marion selling crack to vagabonds from the steps of the servant's entrance. 

I admit I was confused about that.  Was Agnes upset that Marion had a paying job or that she was working at all?  Would she have felt differently if Marion was volunteering as an act of charity?  Was this a quirk of Agnes's personality, a function of her particular culture, her time or all of the above?  Because AFAIK in WASP culture upper class women volunteering and engaging in acts of charity was always socially acceptable.

[amarante]

6 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I admit I was confused about that.  Was Agnes upset that Marion had a paying job or that she was working at all?  Would she have felt differently if Marion was volunteering as an act of charity?  Was this a quirk of Agnes's personality, a function of her particular culture, her time or all of the above?  Because AFAIK in WASP culture upper class women volunteering and engaging in acts of charity was always socially acceptable.

That she was working - and it didn't appear to be for charity.

At any rate, in that era "ladies" don't actually do work for charity - they organized fund raisers like the one that was held in the first season. They weren't volunteering for nursing duty with Clara Barton - or even administrative work.

The whole Settlement House movement hadn't begun in 1882 - it started a bit later and then the more "progressive" women of society actually did do a bit of charity "work" with the Settlement Houses which might have included teaching children or women. However, even that was considered to be a bit "out there" - i.e. just extrapolate it to different levels of progressivism among the elite that you see currently - not that different.

The same on a certain level will be seen as the younger generation - or the more progressive element of the elite - adopts different aesthetics for example. The original Arts & Crafts movement was an intellectual one that was a reaction to the Victorian aesthetic as well as the age of industrialization. The Gamble House in Pasadena was built by one of the Procter and Gamble heirs as a winter house and is a stunning example of Arts & Crafts albeit one that has exquisite Tiffany chandeliers and tiles. But it is the antithesis of what the elite taste was of the earlier generation. Even an "intellectual" like Russell's son or his real life counterpart Stanford White is building in that baroque style as an aesthetic given. 

 

[Yeah No]

2 minutes ago, amarante said:

That she was working - and it didn't appear to be for charity.

At any rate, in that era "ladies" don't actually do work for charity - they organized fund raisers like the one that was held in the first season. They weren't volunteering for nursing duty with Clara Barton - or even administrative work.

The whole Settlement House movement hadn't begun in 1882 - it started a bit later and then the more "progressive" women of society actually did do a bit of charity "work" with the Settlement Houses which might have included teaching children or women. However, even that was considered to be a bit "out there" - i.e. just extrapolate it to different levels of progressivism among the elite that you see currently - not that different.

The same on a certain level will be seen as the younger generation - or the more progressive element of the elite - adopts different aesthetics for example. The original Arts & Crafts movement was an intellectual one that was a reaction to the Victorian aesthetic as well as the age of industrialization. The Gamble House in Pasadena was built by one of the Procter and Gamble heirs as a winter house and is a stunning example of Arts & Crafts albeit one that has exquisite Tiffany chandeliers and tiles. But it is the antithesis of what the elite taste was of the earlier generation. Even an "intellectual" like Russell's son or his real life counterpart Stanford White is building in that baroque style as an aesthetic given. 

Ah, thank you for all of that, it was the best explanation I could have hoped for and then some - I see now that it was probably too early for it to be acceptable for women of that class standing to actually do any of the hands-on charity work other than engaging in philanthropy and organizing philanthropic events.  This show is reminding me just how rapidly society was changing around that time especially with regard to women and what was socially acceptable for them to be and do.  Their changing styles of dress in the next few decades will tell the tale as they start to evolve into the modern era.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, amarante said:

He was proposing essentially a marriage of convenience where she would be his beard and she would be free to do exactly what she wanted which would have included affairs.

Ironically and sadly marriage to Oscar would have probably been much better than the marriages that the real life Gladys entered into. The nouveau riche fabulously wealthy heiresses were not married for love or even affection. Many of them were forced into awful marriages with penniless English aristocrats.

Edith Wharton's novel The Buccaneers - Consuelo Vandebilt was unhappily married to the Duke of Marlborough. Her dowry of $2.5 million restored Blenheim/ FWIW, in 2023 that dowry was approximately $75 MILLION DOLLARS.

Although we know what Oscar proposed a marriage of convenience, Gladys don't know it - he was actually lying by saying that he loved her more than any women whereas the truth would be "I can't love any woman". 

Gladys is essentially a teen-age girl who an older man tries to manipulate.

It may be that she will never get a better offer but that it's no means certain, so would she throw away a chance of it? At least after a few years she know more about the world can make a decision with open eyes.

I haven't read the Buccaneers but I have seen the TV series based on it where one of the American heiresses married a duke who was gay and raped her and she eloped with another man to live abroad.  

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

That said, a lot of the daughters of wealthy families, like the children of the aristocracy, were expected to make advantageous marriages for the family. It was a different kind of family structure than most of us are used to, I think. Gladys seems to be caught up in these expectations and her options are limited by them.

What the options irl were don't necessarily mean in the series. Fellowes has  a reputation to arrange happy endings.

Instead, the real limitation is rather that the happy end can't happen too soon. Romance is usually better than marriage in the series. Russels are a rare exception. 

[iMonrey]

9 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

A criticism from last season that I'm carrying over to this one is that the Russells need a real weakness.  Being "new money" isn't it.  Right now Bertha smiles like a cat that ate the canary, swanning around New York and Newport, throwing money at everything and everyone inevitably bows to her.  Let her and George have real vulnerabilities.  

I'm getting a little bored with Bertha and her never ending quest for social acceptance. She more or less achieved that by the end of last season, and here we are, back at square one with her obsession over having a private box at the opera house. She insists it's because they need it to hobnob with the blue bloods and arrange marriages for their children but their son is a grown-ass man. It's just status to her. And I don't get the impression she'll stop once she's gotten that box. She'll just move onto obsessing over something else she thinks she's being snubbed over.

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That said, a lot of the daughters of wealthy families, like the children of the aristocracy, were expected to make advantageous marriages for the family. It was a different kind of family structure than most of us are used to, I think. Gladys seems to be caught up in these expectations and her options are limited by them.

The only acceptable match that Bertha will approve of is to someone from old money. In that respect I think Oscar might have a chance. Gladys doesn't need money or a title and all Bertha cares about is status. Oscar might not be high enough status for her though.

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

How old is Oscar supposed to be again?

I don't know how old the character is supposed to be but the actor is 45 (probably 44 when this was filmed). But the actress playing Gladys is actually 29 so in real life they're not that far apart. 

[Enigma X]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know how old the character is supposed to be but the actor is 45 (probably 44 when this was filmed). But the actress playing Gladys is actually 29 so in real life they're not that far apart. 

The reason I asked is because in season one I thought they said he was in his late 20s, and I am like the hell he is. But maybe I remembered wrong. 

 

I realized halfway through this episode that I will not be watching any more eps because I am just not a fan of Fellowes's writing but love his sets. So, Oscar's age is now a moot point to me. LOL.

[Roseanna]

26 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The only acceptable match that Bertha will approve of is to someone from old money. In that respect I think Oscar might have a chance. Gladys doesn't need money or a title and all Bertha cares about is status. Oscar might not be high enough status for her though.

The citation you were answering was made by Affogato, not me.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Roseanna
changing a word

[Haleth]

34 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The only acceptable match that Bertha will approve of is to someone from old money.

I’m guessing at some point Bertha will take Gladys husband hunting in Europe. Maybe when she learns of Oscar’s proposal. 

[Roseanna]

27 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm getting a little bored with Bertha and her never ending quest for social acceptance. She more or less achieved that by the end of last season, and here we are, back at square one with her obsession over having a private box at the opera house. She insists it's because they need it to hobnob with the blue bloods and arrange marriages for their children but their son is a grown-ass man. It's just status to her. And I don't get the impression she'll stop once she's gotten that box. She'll just move onto obsessing over something else she thinks she's being snubbed over.

Well, a character must have some goal she passionately strives for, be it love, success, revenge or, in Berha's case, not a social acceptance but obviously to become the one who decides about that acceptance instead of Mrs Astor.

Men can freely strive for ever more money and success but as a wife of an upstart society is the only arena she can compete with others and that hasn't hurt anybody so far. Of course she will eventually hurt Gladys if she succeeds to force her to a loveless, and perhaps even worse, boring marriage. Will there be a moment when she realizes that - maybe too late?

However, why does anybody criticize Mr Russell who with othet robber barons plans to prevent thousands of people get decent pay and work conditions?   

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Peggy seemed extremely selfish by saying that she would have taken her son from her good foster parents - she put her own feelings before what was best for her child. By separating him from the only parents had had known she would have caused him a severe trauma. It's again the same mistake Edith did - and not once but twice - in Downton Abbey.

Well, really in both cases their problems start with not following their own desires, since neither woman gave up their child of their own free will. Edith was convinced to do it because of the alleged scandal and Peggy's child was just stolen. Both women just admitted that they wanted their child--selfishly. But that in itself is kind of comforting to a child, since it means they're loved and wanted and not rejected. A toddler going from one loving home to another will probably be fine--especially in Edith's case where she wasn't a stranger (and the foster family agreed from the start the child wasn't supposed to be 100% theirs). In Peggy's case, the other family probably only respected her for saying that, since the child was already dead so there was no threat of his being taken away, and Peggy was just confirming that she loved him as a mother, she just thought he was dead. But at the same time she acknowledged that it was better for him that he'd been able to stay where he was (except for the possibility that he might have lived if she'd done that.)

I mean, tbf, if we're judging by the standards of the time, I'm sure plenty of people would consider it a good thing for a poor child to be adopted as the ward of the manor too.

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Well, they have a vulnerability - George has made a fortune but he can also lose it and if he does, goodby to Bertha's social ambitions.

 But as others have said, it doesn't really seem like a vulnerability since not only is it outside himself, it doesn't seem like a real threat. Didn't he basically gamble it all last season and win? He seems to be presented as a guy who's going to eventually claw his way back up no matter what happens. I feel like we've been told he's even already done it more than once.

Right now his big challenge is workers who want a decent living, so nothing to root for there.

 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I'm getting a little bored with Bertha and her never ending quest for social acceptance. She more or less achieved that by the end of last season, and here we are, back at square one with her obsession over having a private box at the opera house. She insists it's because they need it to hobnob with the blue bloods and arrange marriages for their children but their son is a grown-ass man. It's just status to her. And I don't get the impression she'll stop once she's gotten that box. She'll just move onto obsessing over something else she thinks she's being snubbed over.

Definitely. She's just terminally ambitious, the domestic version of her husband who can't even allow workers safe conditions. She has to win.

Edited October 30, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Salacious Kitty]

38 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I’m guessing at some point Bertha will take Gladys husband hunting in Europe. Maybe when she learns of Oscar’s proposal. 

She mentioned something to that effect in Season 1. 

[Affogato]

49 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

 

However, why does anybody criticize Mr Russell who with othet robber barons plans to prevent thousands of people get decent pay and work conditions?   

Mr Russell, not so different from Mr Iger and his peers? The robber barons are still among us.

 

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I felt for Peggy, but glad that storyline is wrapped up without having to weigh her down with a kid. 

Peggy is one of the most interesting characters and I'm glad they finished that part of her story so they can give her something more interesting to do. I want to see more of Peggy at the newspaper and her relationship with the editor. 

14 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

While he tells Gladys that she can pretty much do what she wants, I think Oscar believes he can control her to a certain extent because she's so young. 

Yes and no. I took that to mean that as long as Gladys is discrete and no one finds out, she will be allowed to have affairs and he will tolerate them as long as it does not become public knowledge or a scandal. 

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

No one would bat an eye except for the fact that finding Oscar with a male lover would be too scandalous for anyone to overlook.  Agnes may find that Marion having an actual job is the least of her concerns.

Now I want a scene where Marion either feels the need to confess or explain something to her aunts, just as Ada and Agnes have discovered Oscar's secret. I want a scene of Marion and Oscar in one room and him telling her something like "Whatever you have done, it is going to be the least of their problems. You could have done almost anything and you will get a free pass." 

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What if they had children whose father was officially somenody else? 

As long as the other man was okay with the baby having Oscar's last name and being part of that family, I don't think it would be a problem for Oscar. The marriage is supposed to produce heirs and someone to carry on the name, and to the outside world he will have done that.

Depending on who the biological father is, Oscar might be okay with having the person in their life as an honorary uncle or something. Oscar seems to be pretty on board with the idea of Gladys having affairs. 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

She insists it's because they need it to hobnob with the blue bloods and arrange marriages for their children but their son is a grown-ass man. It's just status to her. And I don't get the impression she'll stop once she's gotten that box. She'll just move onto obsessing over something else she thinks she's being snubbed over.

Larry is grown, but he is not yet married. I'm sure she wants a suitable match for him. Bertha won't be as picky, but she wants someone for her son who will not cause a scandal or ruin the family name among society.

I think part of Bertha's character is that it will never be enough for her. She will always want more and better. There is always going to be something else. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Sarah 103

[amarante]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Although we know what Oscar proposed a marriage of convenience, Gladys don't know it - he was actually lying by saying that he loved her more than any women whereas the truth would be "I can't love any woman". 

Gladys is essentially a teen-age girl who an older man tries to manipulate.

It may be that she will never get a better offer but that it's no means certain, so would she throw away a chance of it? At least after a few years she know more about the world can make a decision with open eyes.

I haven't read the Buccaneers but I have seen the TV series based on it where one of the American heiresses married a duke who was gay and raped her and she eloped with another man to live abroad.  

Of course he was manipulating her but the marriage of convenience he was proposing was actually a better situation than a lot of the marriages these heiresses were forced into.

It appears that Gladys isn’t completely smitten by him although she is accepting him as a valid suitor. I would assume that she is naive enough to actually think she can marry for love and Oscar really doesn’t present as someone a young girl would swoon over. 

[Brn2bwild]

52 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Mr Russell, not so different from Mr Iger and his peers? The robber barons are still among us.

 

I definitely don't condone what George is doing, but there is far less emphasis placed on his actions than on Bertha's, on a show where the type of hat you wear to Easter service may be one of the most important decisions you ever make.

[Sarah 103]

6 minutes ago, amarante said:

I would assume that she is naive enough to actually think she can marry for love and Oscar really doesn’t present as someone a young girl would swoon over. 

I agree to some extent. I think she wants to marry for love and not someone her mother selected. But if it is someone her parents, or at least her father, will approve of and allow her to stop living with her parents and her mother's rules, she can probably convince herself that she loves Oscar.  

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

I definitely don't condone what George is doing, but there is far less emphasis placed on his actions than on Bertha's, on a show where the type of hat you wear to Easter service may be one of the most important decisions you ever make.

I read a review which seems to think that the show gets better this season, less slow.  When crossing the street is jaw dropping action, well. But yes, there is no strong undercurrent of real meaning and social commentary here. 

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, amarante said:

I would assume that she is naive enough to actually think she can marry for love and Oscar really doesn’t present as someone a young girl would swoon over. 

I agree.  The character is interesting, but the actor is in his 40s and looks his age.  Meanwhile Taissa Farmiga is closing in on 30, but, at least to me, can still believably play someone in her early 20s.  I'm sure his offer would be interesting to her, but someone of her status would probably have a lot of potential Bertha-approved men to consider. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But that in itself is kind of comforting to a child, since it means they're loved and wanted and not rejected. A toddler going from one loving home to another will probably be fine--especially in Edith's case where she wasn't a stranger (and the foster family agreed from the start the child wasn't supposed to be 100% theirs).

Actually, a toddler who would feel that her mum, i.e. the only mum she had known, had rejected her.

We knew that from bitter experience of thousands of children who were sent to safety during the WW2 that their basic conference was shattered even if many got a loving home. And when they had started to love their foster parents as their own, they had to return home to parents they no longer remembered. 

[amarante]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree.  The character is interesting, but the actor is in his 40s and looks his age.  Meanwhile Taissa Farmiga is closing in on 30, but, at least to me, can still believably play someone in her early 20s.  I'm sure his offer would be interesting to her, but someone of her status would probably have a lot of potential Bertha-approved men to consider. 

 I don't disagree with you but I think the character she is playing is closer to 18 which is the age when she would come out - maybe delayed a bit as her mother wanted to be able to launch her from the new mansion but I don't think she is supposed to be in her 20's.

Who knows what the plot will reveal but she didn't seem to be particularly smitten with him and his offer. It seemed like she was just excited that she had gotten her first proposal.

Also - having just finished watching Pride & Prejudice - the one with Colin Firth for reference - 🤫🤫 Oscar's proposal was hardly one that was wildly romantic in terms of what a naive young girl would imagine in terms of someone sweeping her off her feet. It was very pragmatic in the same way that Mr. Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth Bennett was very formal. At least with Mr. Darcy, his true feelings of passion are revealed at the end - Oscar is never going to achieve that kind of passionate intensity. 

As I recall, in the first season, Bertha Russell voiced what she would see as a suitable suitor - an impoverished Lord would be okay but I don't think that Oscar is really going to be the kind of stupendous match Bertha wants and I don't think George would be willing to give Oscar an enormous dowry in defiance of his wife's wishes - even if Glady's wanted to except. It is all very low key and doesn't seem as if this is a hill that Glady's would be willing to die on so to speak - Oscar isn't Mr. Darcy.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes and no. I took that to mean that as long as Gladys is discrete and no one finds out, she will be allowed to have affairs and he will tolerate them as long as it does not become public knowledge or a scandal. 

One can never be sure, especially as there are servants around.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

As long as the other man was okay with the baby having Oscar's last name and being part of that family, I don't think it would be a problem for Oscar. The marriage is supposed to produce heirs and someone to carry on the name, and to the outside world he will have done that.

Depending on who the biological father is, Oscar might be okay with having the person in their life as an honorary uncle or something. Oscar seems to be pretty on board with the idea of Gladys having affairs. 

I don't mean Oscar but Gladys and her lover. 

I know a real story from 19th century about a woman who decided to get a divorce from her husband who was a  high-ranking officer after her baby she had born to her lover died.