S02.E01: You Don't Even Like Opera

[tennisgurl]

I was actually just in Newport and in Bay Harbor a few weeks ago and got to see a lot of these Gilded Age summer homes in person, so its now extra fun for me to see everyone off to their summer "cottages" and chatting about the architecture now that I've seen a lot of it in person, it really is something. It was also really tragically funny how many stories of those mansions went something like "he made tons of money, built this amazing mansion, and then he died on the Titanic." Its like that boat is just sitting in the harbor over this whole show. 

I loved the opener with everyone getting ready for Easter Sunday, so many amazing hats! I want to bring hats back, can we do that? The costume porn was heavy in this one, loved all of Bertha's dresses in particular, she has a style that both screams "money" and "don't fuck with me". She really is not a subtle person, I loved Mrs. Astors face as she gawked at how extra the Russels truly are and what Bertha is willing to shell out to win. Mrs. Astor might be down but she's not out though, Bertha's tendency to bulldoze can hurt her as much as it can help. The drama with the opera house is extra over the top considering we all know how it ends up, the New People are definitely going to have the last laugh. 

Aunt Agnes looked like her head was about to explode when she heard that Marian was teaching a watercolor class at a rich kid school on the side, she might as well have caught Marian robbing a 7/11 for cigarettes and cheap beer. Looks like another love interest has entered the ring, maybe one a bit less sketchy. 

I do feel for Oscar, its a pretty awful time to be gay and its not like people had a lot of options, especially with the expectation that he gets married to keep the family name going, but it would really suck for Gladys if they do get married. She's a sweet very sheltered teenager who wants to find love and while I'm sure her life with Oscar wouldn't be terrible, I don't think he would be cruel or abusive towards her, but he is clearly interested in her for her money and for her lack of worldliness, he wants a wife with lots of money and who wont ask questions about his time with his "friends" or lack of interest in physical affection beyond what is needed, while she wants to find love. I assume that Bertha already has a husband hunt in Europe planned, she will be PISSED if her plans are derailed. 

Poor Peggy, what an awful thing to find out and have to deal with. That being said, I'm glad that her lost baby story is over quickly, I'm much more interested in seeing her start her career and explore her life with her family and the cute editor than see her with a kid or trying to track him down. At least her sons life was happy, if short. 

[Roseanna]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Peggy, what an awful thing to find out and have to deal with. That being said, I'm glad that her lost baby story is over quickly, I'm much more interested in seeing her start her career and explore her life with her family and the cute editor than see her with a kid or trying to track him down. At least her sons life was happy, if short. 

It's cruel but true that if she had kept her husband and baby, she would hardly had time and energy to write. Plus, how her career is advancing is a much more interesting plot. 

[Straycat80]

I’m so glad this show is back. Love the house, scenery and fashion porn. 
I was let down by how the Peggy storyline ended. There was such a mystery about all that last season.  Did they ever say if she was married, why the boy was put up for adoption, how she found him? I don’t remember. It was just…he’s dead. 
I think Gladys is so desperate to get away from her overbearing mother she will marry Oscar just for independence. She’ll eventually realize he’s gay and then it will get interesting. Oscar probably feels he’ll have more of a traditional life being married to a woman but see guys in secret and hopefully not get beat up anymore. 
I don’t remember the rich lady at dinner having a father who is the Russell’s servant. Not sure if I’m that interested in the downstairs staff drama.

[Snazzy Daisy]

I truly love the hat montage. ❤️

A heartbreaking news on Peggy’s baby. But knowing he was a happy child adopted by a loving family, that’s comforting. Is the show trying to set up Peggy with Mr. Spring the widower? Please no. I’d like her to be with the hot newspaper editor.

Dorothy has been blindsided by the way Arthur handled Peggy’s pregnancy and is now struggling to identify with the man she married. I hope they won’t drag this arc for the entire S2.

Ada Brook has the purest soul. Her ability to live through rose colored glasses is a blessing. Not having to worry about money is a bonus.

Ada and Marian have a lovely dynamic. When Marian admits that she did love Tom, she’s very supportive of her. 💕

Quote

“I’m glad you used the past tense. It helps to accept that a thing is finished and done with.”

At this point, am looking forward to the possible romance between Marian and the handsome Dashiell. Larry who?

Quote

DASHIELL: “Does that make us cousins?”

MARIAN: “Almost, but not quite.”

The young actress who plays Frances (Matilda Lawler), she’s so good in Evil series. Cannot wait to see more of her.

Instead of Christina Neilson, I wish we can have a duet between Denée Benton and Audra McDonald for a musical scene. A girl can dream… 🙄

Mrs. Astor has the best lines. 

Quote

“Have you combed the city for the disenchanted rich who couldn’t get a box at the Academy?”

😆😆😆

 

Rich people problems:

• One of your biggest mission in life is to climb to the pinnacle of NY society. So, an Academy box is a must have. The problem is…you can’t even get near to the waiting list. Solution? Organize an eventful “Opera Dinner” with carefully selected guests where shots are fired all night.
• You and your old money friends don’t want the new money to continuously crashing your parties. And now the Metropolitan Opera House has boxes for all the people you have rejected before.
• You and your banker hubby have been on the waitlist for an Academy box for years and you don’t want to wait any longer. On top of this, your estranged father is working for the Russells.
• You and your robber baron friends are threatened by unionized employees demanding a 8-hour workday, safer working conditions, houses and medical care.
• You’re having a secret Thursday life involving a part time job teaching watercolors at a local school. The children adore you (of course they do! 🙄) but your aunt disapproves.
• You’re living a closeted life and you’re afraid the van Rhijn name will die with you. Your plan? Go on a fortune-hungry mission to marry a much younger heiress.
• Your spinster sister to embark on a new romance a little late in her life.

Life is hard, y’all! 😆

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[RachelKM]

37 minutes ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

You and your robber baron friends are threatened by unionized employees demanding a 8-hour workday, safer working conditions, houses and medical care.

I completely forgot about this story line (as I suspect Fellows does as well - I get the impression from his work that he doesn't give a shit about working class anything.) But my favorite moment was one of the Robber Baron douche canoes says the workers want "safety measures that will make a child's nursery look dangerous." 

All I could think was, "My dude, I have seen late 19th century toys and furniture. That shit needed OSHA too."

Edited October 30, 2023 by RachelKM

[BeatrixK]

Oh, how I love this show and it's Dame of Thrones Victorian Clothes and Architecture porn fix I crave!

Peggy's story line did NOT have me prepped to sob 1o minutes in.  The adoptive father's graciousness just made it worse.

Gladys...please don't marry Oscar.  I feel for Oscar and such, but come on, bruh - Gladys is too sweet....please don't ruin her by getting her in a shame marriage!

I really like that we are spending more time with the staff lives - ribbing Boudin was so cute - and I SOOOOO want he and Mrs. Bruce to hook up - I just adore her and she needs someone like Boudin!

The costumers clearly were beyond grateful to dress a non-pregnant c**** - her costumes are just to die for!!!!

Oh, I am so happy to have my pure escapist victorian social climbing bitchery back!

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Straycat80 said:

I think Gladys is so desperate to get away from her overbearing mother she will marry Oscar just for independence. She’ll eventually realize he’s gay and then it will get interesting. Oscar probably feels he’ll have more of a traditional life being married to a woman but see guys in secret and hopefully not get beat up anymore. 

Yes to all of this expect for one thing. I don't know if she would be able to figure out that Oscar's gay, or who in her social circle would be able to clue her in on the secret.  

[Sakura12]

While I don't want Glady's to marry Oscar, there are worse options. Glady's grew up in a household where her parents actually love and respect one another. So I'm sure she is looking for that. While most of the women her age would be lucky to see their parents just in a loveless marriage and not something worse. So they don't have another frame of reference that isn't a story. 

Bertha's obsession with climbing the social latter is annoying, I will have to give her credit for knowing how to play the game. Her ambition can be a downfall. Her husband will also have to play the game to keep his money to keep his wife's status. 

Well Peggy's story was depressing. I'm also glad she's not stuck with a kid and can pursue her dream of being writer. I hope Anges does take her back. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Peggy seemed extremely selfish by saying that she would have taken her son from her good foster parents - she put her own feelings before what was best for her child. By separating him from the only parents had had known she would have caused him a severe trauma. It's again the same mistake Edith did - and not once but twice - in Downton Abbey.

She was being honest about how she felt, which is how any parent who had their child stolen from them in the first place would feel, for good or ill. "Extremely selfish" sounds extremely judgemental for a realistic human emotion. I don't even have children and I know that's how I would feel under those circumstances (if he were still that age, at least) and I'm inclined to think anyone who claimed otherwise would be lying to themself. Edith at least had agreed to give her child up, even though it was against her better judgement, so she wasn't in the same circumstances as Peggy.

As for trauma, he was only three when he died, and they were talking about what would have happened if he had been taken back even earlier than that. He'd soon have forgotten them.

22 hours ago, RachelKM said:

But this show is all but paint by numbers when it comes to romance tropes.

Indeed; it's obvious there'll be something between Larry and the young widow he's going to do an architecture job for. I was afraid there would be something between Peggy and the also conveniently widowed Mr Spring, which would be inadvisable with the wounds so raw, but it seems not.

12 hours ago, amarante said:

He was proposing essentially a marriage of convenience where she would be his beard and she would be free to do exactly what she wanted which would have included affairs.

If he were being honest, that's how he would have presented it to her, but instead he claimed that he loved her and that that was why he wouldn't mind being pecked by Gladys specifically. That would not encourage her to have affairs. He may not actually care if she did, but from what he said, he would be the one she would expect to be sharing affections with.

In real life, Oscar's offer would be one I might advise her to take lest she regret it later, but since this is a drama, there might well be a better suitor waiting for her who's rich, loving and not controlling. Though he's likely to be coming only at the end, after she's introduced to a less nice aristocrat.

10 hours ago, Enigma X said:

The reason I asked is because in season one I thought they said he was in his late 20s, and I am like the hell he is. But maybe I remembered wrong.

Oscar is supposed to be young enough that George called him a "young jackanape", despite his actor being three years older than George's.

8 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Peggy is one of the most interesting characters and I'm glad they finished that part of her story so they can give her something more interesting to do. I want to see more of Peggy at the newspaper and her relationship with the editor.

So far, Peggy's storyline and to a lesser extent George's are the only ones about issues with importance beyond social climbing.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually, a toddler who would feel that her mum, i.e. the only mum she had known, had rejected her.

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

We knew that from bitter experience of thousands of children who were sent to safety during the WW2 that their basic conference was shattered even if many got a loving home. And when they had started to love their foster parents as their own, they had to return home to parents they no longer remembered. 

In Peggy's case, her child was kidnapped. Had that family been complicit in the kidnapping they wouldn't get rewarded by getting to keep the kid because he doesn't know his mother now. 

As it was, they were innocent and the boy was dead, so I wasn't thinking of him being taken away from any home. Just that a child knowing that his biological mother would have wanted him and didn't give him up voluntarily, would be the opposite of rejection. Peggy showed how fiercely she loved him by admitting she would have wanted him for herself, but also admitted that might not have been a good thing for him, which shows she was a good mother who put his feelings first. 

In Marigold's case, only time Edith was out of her life was when she was in Switzerland, after Edith finished nursing her, and didn't seem old enough to consciously remember the people she was with there any more than Edith herself.  Once back in England, Edith visited her constantly and couldn't stop acting like her mother.  But if we're going to cut Peggy's father some slack over kidnapping his grandson and making his daughter mourn her baby because it gave her a brighter future, we ought to do the same for Marigold, who would be considered lucky to be made a ward of Lady Edith and even luckier to have her rightful place as blood family. 

It just seems like in all these situations there's risksof children feeling rejected or misunderstanding the situation even when adults think they're doing what's best.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by sistermagpie

[EtheltoTillie]

Upon hearing about the servant/father, I recalled that last season he had been going off on mysterious surveillance missions on his days off.  He was watching her. 

[Pop Tart]

30 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Upon hearing about the servant/father, I recalled that last season he had been going off on mysterious surveillance missions on his days off.  He was watching her. 

I figured she was his daughter but don’t think we actually heard that discussion between them, right? We did see him lurking near her home and she did finally confront him, but can’t remember past that. It sounded like her husband was going to try to get rid of the servant/dad (Watson?) Hope he doesn’t get him fired. 

[iMonrey]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Well, a character must have some goal she passionately strives for, be it love, success, revenge or, in Berha's case, not a social acceptance but obviously to become the one who decides about that acceptance instead of Mrs Astor.

Sure, but I feel like the show has just hit the reset button with Bertha. We went through this same arc last season. Her goal was to be accepted by the great Mrs. Astor and now Mrs. Astor is coming over to her house and is whatever passes for "friends." So Bertha achieved her ultimate goal last season and the writers had to come up with something else and now we're back to square one, Bertha needs to get one over on Mrs. Astor with this opera box thing. Rinse, repeat.

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

However, why does anybody criticize Mr Russell who with othet robber barons plans to prevent thousands of people get decent pay and work conditions?   

There's plenty of criticism to go around. I just don't see Russell having basically the same story he had last season like Bertha seems to.

[Shermie]

Happy this show is back!

I like that the focus is mostly on the women in this show; the male characters are mostly secondary. 

And the fashion! I marveled at those two scenes going back and forth with the different groups on Easter Sunday in their finery. How many fancy dresses and hats and suits did the costume department have to whip up when 90% were for extras? I mean, hundreds of elaborate period costumes that were mostly in the background. I appreciate that attention to detail.

[buttersister]

Quote

clothing and house porn?

I'm all about it. Also Audra MacDonald and Christine Baranski. Maybe Morgan Spector, but then Russell is such a robber baron. After that, I don’t care very much about the other upstairs folk and none of the downstairs—but then, I’m not sure Fellowes does either.

Better keep up the clothing and especially the houses.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She was being honest about how she felt, which is how any parent who had their child stolen from them in the first place would feel, for good or ill. "Extremely selfish" sounds extremely judgemental for a realistic human emotion. I don't even have children and I know that's how I would feel under those circumstances (if he were still that age, at least) and I'm inclined to think anyone who claimed otherwise would be lying to themself. Edith at least had agreed to give her child up, even though it was against her better judgement, so she wasn't in the same circumstances as Peggy.

I admit that I wrote too harsly. Saying is not the same as doing.

However, what I meant is that in such cases decisions shouldn't be based on one's feelings of longing but doing what's in the best interests for the child even if it causes pain to oneself. Giving up a child may show greater love than keeping her.

Sad to say, being a child born outside the marriage caused a stigma. Sometimes, the matter could be arranged f.ex. by claiming that the child was a ward or forging the birth certificate with a dead  father. 

Peggy's father's attitudes weren't unusual at the time, but his harshness was. Although most fathers of means would opposed his daughter's marriage with a man with no profession or fortune, they would have accepted it at least when the baby was born - "well, you have acted foolishly, but we must do best of it", i.e. arranged work for her husband and home for the new family and doted the child.  

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes to all of this expect for one thing. I don't know if she would be able to figure out that Oscar's gay, or who in her social circle would be able to clue her in on the secret.  

Gladys is an innocent and ignorant girl, so he can't figure that Oscar is gay unless she sees him in flagranti. She doesn't even know that gays exist!

Who would tell her? The only ones who are close enough her are Marion and Mrs Astor's daughter who are just as innocent and ignorant.

Well, her brother could hear rumors or see by chance Oscar with his partner in the night life.

The best option is Mr Russell as he could hire a detective. But after finding facts he probably wouldn't tell them to Gladys but only say to Oscar: stay away from my daughter or else...

 

[Haleth]

I'm not sure Peggy would have made a grab for her son.  She is tender hearted and would have realized an abrupt change and loss of his parents would have traumatized even a toddler.  Perhaps she would have eased her way into his life.  But I'm very glad the writing didn't go this way so we don't know what she would have done.  Was there a change in writers with the new ones deciding to scuttle this storyline and give Peggy a better one?

[ahpny]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Aunt Agnes looked like her head was about to explode when she heard that Marian was teaching a watercolor class at a rich kid school on the side, she might as well have caught Marian robbing a 7/11 for cigarettes and cheap beer.

From Agnes' perspective, teaching watercolors is a far worse offense than robbing a 7-11 for cigarettes. The later is one-off petty crime often not even prosecuted and seldom making news anywhere. But an upper-class single women teaching weekly for a common salary is a flagrant and scandelous breach of all the unwritten rules this show is about. What would "good" people think if they found out? It is simply not done.

[Roseanna]

39 minutes ago, ahpny said:

From Agnes' perspective, teaching watercolors is a far worse offense than robbing a 7-11 for cigarettes. The later is one-off petty crime often not even prosecuted and seldom making news anywhere. But an upper-class single women teaching weekly for a common salary is a flagrant and scandelous breach of all the unwritten rules this show is about. What would "good" people think if they found out? It is simply not done.

Stupid of her! Marion has no money and therefore not a good chance to marry, at least with a man Agnes accepts. So an ability to earn her keep (not that she does now, it's stupid of her to get used to expensive clothes Agnes pay for her) is a good guarantee for her future.

If Agnes is a good example of the US upper class, it seems to have been more conservative than that the European one as there were also liberal upper class fathers who let their daughters study or travel abroad to become artists.

[Affogato]

Children are, to this day, often pulled between sets of parents--good and bad on all sides. For the story, and Peggy's professional future, her son dying is probably the best option. For the son, it is hard to tell. It is always hard to tell, in real life, until the story is finished. 

I'm not sure that Agnes is actually representative of any society, at this point. She seems to have established herself as old fashioned, frugal and somewhat rigid, and her extravagance is taking care of destitute female relatives. Spending so much time in her home, she has wrapped herself in illusions of how life should happen, although she is not unkind. I think, though, though that a lot of her anger is that she is not in control, and that will be a problem for her son, too, if she discovers his secrets. 

Bertha must have spent a huge amount of money on the party, and on shoring up the new opera house. It is fantastical that her ploy would work out well. If I were Mrs Astor I'd be furious and disinclined to ever speak to Bertha again.

[sugarbaker design]

17 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I completely forgot about this story line (as I suspect Fellows does as well - I get the impression from his work that he doesn't give a shit about working class anything.)

Downstairs staff did feature prominently in both Downton Abbey, and now The Gilded Age.  Mrs Hughes, Carson, Mrs Pattmore and Daisy are some of my favorite DA characters.

[RachelKM]

5 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Downstairs staff did feature prominently in both Downton Abbey, and now The Gilded Age.  Mrs Hughes, Carson, Mrs Pattmore and Daisy are some of my favorite DA characters.

Yes. There are working class people. But their stories are pretty specific to the lives of staff of the wealthy and landed or tied to romanticized historical events.  Fellowes is preoccupied pretty much exclusively in a particular world, that of the wealthy and/or titled. To the extent that people who work live within it, they exist. Other people are backdrops.

Actually, to an extent, his narrow scope is reflective of the world of these people (which, not coincidently, is his own). The rest of the world existed. But to them, they were merely the gears running the conveniences of their lives. 

I don't really mind it.  Fellowes writes what he knows, and rather thinly at that.  If he were to attempt to write a story about the world outside of his experience, I cannot imagine it would go better. 

[the watcher]

good to see Katie Sipowicz is still working for the Russells.

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Well, her brother could hear rumors or see by chance Oscar with his partner in the night life.

The best option is Mr Russell as he could hire a detective. But after finding facts he probably wouldn't tell them to Gladys but only say to Oscar: stay away from my daughter or else...

I find both of these possibilities to be realistic/within the realm of something that could happen in the show and possibly real life as well. 

5 hours ago, ahpny said:

From Agnes' perspective, teaching watercolors is a far worse offense than robbing a 7-11 for cigarettes. The later is one-off petty crime often not even prosecuted and seldom making news anywhere. But an upper-class single women teaching weekly for a common salary is a flagrant and scandelous breach of all the unwritten rules this show is about. What would "good" people think if they found out? It is simply not done.

And, because of who she was teaching, there was a better than average chance that someone from their crowd would find out, which is exactly what happened. 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

And, because of who she was teaching, there was a better than average chance that someone from their crowd would find out, which is exactly what happened. 

Yeah, but Marion has charmed one girl whose dad is a widower - and he didn't seem shocked at all. 

[Salacious Kitty]

So how is it that Dashiell didn't have time to call on his relatives, yet found a school with a watercolor class to enroll his daughter in? Seems like he's been in the city longer than Aunt Agnes knew. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

I'm not sure that Agnes is actually representative of any society, at this point. She seems to have established herself as old fashioned, frugal and somewhat rigid, and her extravagance is taking care of destitute female relatives. Spending so much time in her home, she has wrapped herself in illusions of how life should happen, although she is not unkind. I think, though, though that a lot of her anger is that she is not in control, and that will be a problem for her son, too, if she discovers his secrets. 

I agree. She belongs to the class who has long had power and has now going to lose it. So she clings to the outer manners and "things should be done as they aleays have". That's a losing method.

Oscar is a jerk, but he undestands how the world is changing and he tries to ally himself with the winners.

[AntFTW]

7 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

So how is it that Dashiell didn't have time to call on his relatives, yet found a school with a watercolor class to enroll his daughter in? Seems like he's been in the city longer than Aunt Agnes knew. 

I had kind of the same question.

He's new to the city and he's a single parent but his daughter is enrolled in a school in the city, and for long enough to know who Marian is who only teaches once a week?

[RachelKM]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If Agnes is a good example of the US upper class, it seems to have been more conservative than that the European one as there were also liberal upper class fathers who let their daughters study or travel abroad to become artists.

There is quite a difference between allowing your daughter to study, travel, or even be an artist.  Any of those could be considered hobbies of a privileged girl (though, I Agnes might object to the latter as it is a bit progressive). Even if a wealthy woman were to sell pieces, it could be seen as more of an eccentricity than work.  

Teaching for pay is an actual job and exposes her to speculation about the wealth of the family. It is one thing to fall below their prior level of wealth. It's quite another to look like the family has fallen. 

I suspect if she was volunteering, Agnes would not be as offended. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by RachelKM

[peeayebee]

23 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

I figured she was his daughter but don’t think we actually heard that discussion between them, right? We did see him lurking near her home and she did finally confront him, but can’t remember past that.

I was also wondering if we learned in S1 what his relation to her was. I'm such a bad judge of age that I even wondered if they had been romantically involved. I thought, Either that or he's her father.

The opening with all the hats was wonderful. Bertha's was the most beautiful. Of course. 

Yes, definitely clothes porn. 

While I'm glad that Peggy's story of searching for her son is over, I was kind of dumbfounded that the show went that way. I wonder if Fellowes had planned something else when he ended S1. It sure seemed like we would see her and her mother out looking for him.

However, as it was, I thought it was beautifully done. The absolute heartache of Peggy and her mother, as well as her mother's anger toward her husband. Then the father standing in the background knowing he did a terrible thing and maybe knowing there was no way to atone for it. It was all heartbreaking.

Like others, I think Louise Jacobson is doing a better job as Marian, but I still think she's the weakest actor on the show.

The moment the guy at the bar bought Oscar a drink, I knew Oscar would end up getting beaten up.

In George's meeting with the other robber barons (if that's what they were), who was the guy with the big beard? Is he a fictional creation or someone from real life?

The best characters are Agnes and Ada. Every scene with them is enjoyable.

 

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, RachelKM said:

There is quite a difference between allowing your daughter to study, travel, or even be an artist. 

Whereas priviledges girls had painting or music as hobbies, to be an artist iwas also then a profession.

I recently read about two aristocratic women born in 1850ies: one's family didn't approve her plans to be a governess and after rejecting several eligible suitors she married at 30 and the marriage became unhappy, whereas another became an artist, writer and feminist, studied in Paris and stayed single. The difference was that in the latter case the family's men had professions.      

[Haleth]

8 hours ago, peeayebee said:

In George's meeting with the other robber barons (if that's what they were), who was the guy with the big beard? Is he a fictional creation or someone from real life?

Jay Gould.  He was one of the most ruthless of the bunch.

[Roseanna]

The common theme seems to be the relations between parents or guardians and daughters. (There are also sons but they have it easy.)

Peggy's father acted both wtongly and secretly and, despite his genuine remorse had lost her daughter. Luckily the mother supported Peggy when she found out the truth.  

To Mrs Russell Gladys seems to be only a means to promote her social station. She has kept so sheltered that she may be an easy prey to a fortune hunter like Oscar, especially as wants to get free of her mother's restrictions.

Instead, Mr Russel let his son to choose his own career and his wife seems to satisfied with that. That seems little odd because if one wants to build an empire, it would be meaningless if there is a son doesn't continue it.

Agnes wants Marian to marry a man from an "old money" family, but so far she hasn't done anything to help her to find one. Why didn't she arrange parties or at least ask Oscar to bring eligible men to her house?

Marian didn't excactly promise to follow Agnes's advice in the future, but she seems to have realized that it's foolish at least not to listen to her.

Agnes wants her niece to be secure but marrying a man of means doesn't guarantee that he doesn't lose his fortune.  Instead, Ada wants Marian to become happy, but love alone doesn't guarantee that.  

[Affogato]

16 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I agree. She belongs to the class who has long had power and has now going to lose it. So she clings to the outer manners and "things should be done as they aleays have". That's a losing method.

Oscar is a jerk, but he undestands how the world is changing and he tries to ally himself with the winners.

I got the impression that Oscar was taking on the family responsibility and knew he needed more income to do so, so I thought he was (in fact) showing respect for his mother by looking for a rich bride. He has been raised by women and did tell Gladys he would permit her individuality and her own opinions, and that he would respect her choices in the relationship. As he points out, that isn't necessarily the case.  His homosexuality does put him between a rock and a hard place, but I thought he was putting his duty to his family before his personal desires, which would not have been an unusual (or jerklicious) position at the time. He should find an older, single woman who might be of a like mind. Gladys is simply too young and naive. Oscar Wilde sailed for the US in 1881, if he had met him perhaps he could have learned something. 

35 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

The common theme seems to be the relations between parents or guardians and daughters. (There are also sons but they have it easy.)

Peggy's father acted both wtongly and secretly and, despite his genuine remorse had lost her daughter. Luckily the mother supported Peggy when she found out the truth.  

To Mrs Russell Gladys seems to be only a means to promote her social station. She has kept so sheltered that she may be an easy prey to a fortune hunter like Oscar, especially as wants to get free of her mother's restrictions.

Instead, Mr Russel let his son to choose his own career and his wife seems to satisfied with that. That seems little odd because if one wants to build an empire, it would be meaningless if there is a son doesn't continue it.

Agnes wants Marian to marry a man from an "old money" family, but so far she hasn't done anything to help her to find one. Why didn't she arrange parties or at least ask Oscar to bring eligible men to her house?

Marian didn't excactly promise to follow Agnes's advice in the future, but she seems to have realized that it's foolish at least not to listen to her.

Agnes wants her niece to be secure but marrying a man of means doesn't guarantee that he doesn't lose his fortune.  Instead, Ada wants Marian to become happy, but love alone doesn't guarantee that.  

I think that Peggy returning to the house will pull Marian more towards independence and self support, and that she may also be able to influence the older women. I think she is the light coming in through the crack in the door. 

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Jay Gould.  He was one of the most ruthless of the bunch.

Thank you. I did catch his name when I watched, but I forgot it. Also, the name is similar to a modern-day (living?) palentologist. I just googled it. Stephen Jay Gould. That's how I got confused.

24 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I got the impression that Oscar was taking on the family responsibility and knew he needed more income to do so, so I thought he was (in fact) showing respect for his mother by looking for a rich bride. He has been raised by women and did tell Gladys he would permit her individuality and her own opinions, and that he would respect her choices in the relationship. As he points out, that isn't necessarily the case.  His homosexuality does put him between a rock and a hard place, but I thought he was putting his duty to his family before his personal desires, which would not have been an unusual (or jerklicious) position at the time. He should find an older, single woman who might be of a like mind. Gladys is simply too young and naive. Oscar Wilde sailed for the US in 1881, if he had met him perhaps he could have learned something. 

I think you're right. I think that while Oscar was a scoundrel in S1, he will become more sympathetic in S2.

[sugarbaker design]

On 10/31/2023 at 3:29 AM, Roseanna said:

Well, her brother could hear rumors or see by chance Oscar with his partner in the night life.

The best option is Mr Russell as he could hire a detective. But after finding facts he probably wouldn't tell them to Gladys but only say to Oscar: stay away from my daughter or else...

In addition to being closeted and sexually active, Oscar is also a huge drunk.  Sloppy behavior is par for the course.  For all the viewers know, rumors about him could be swirling all over Manhattan.

Edited November 1, 2023 by sugarbaker design

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The common theme seems to be the relations between parents or guardians and daughters. (There are also sons but they have it easy.)

I agree and would add it's also about how the parental relationships are different when it's a daughter as opposed to the sons. As you pointed out, the sons have significantly more freedom. They are supposed to earn money and avoid public scandals. This includes the woman they marry. As long as she is not someone who will ruin the family's reputation or position in society, they have options. 

With daughters, who they marry determines the rest of their life. It will determine their place in society and their entire economic future. 

I still want scenes of just the younger generation interacting with each other. I want to see the dynamic is when you have Marion, Oscar, Gladys and Larry in a room together, like at a party or some event. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Sarah 103

[shang yiet]

I am just not interested in Peggy's dull baby storyline. It's not Gilded Age specific, it could have happened to any girl, rich or poor, black or white, in any time period.

Yes, Agnes, Bertha and George really should be busy matchmaking. What are they waiting for? Although I suspect Oscar's sexuality is an open secret in high society. He's already in his 30s, hanging out with that dashing man friend who is also single, no interest in women, disappearing somewhere at nights. Agnes and Ada are not stupid, I suspect they know.

Not interested in the servants, I can hardly tell them apart. The footman and the maid are both still bland.

I agree that things seem too easy for Bertha. I feel Mrs Astor and Ward McAllister succumbed too easily.

 

[peeayebee]

21 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I am just not interested in Peggy's dull baby storyline. It's not Gilded Age specific, it could have happened to any girl, rich or poor, black or white, in any time period.

As much as I liked the scenes in this ep re Peggy and the whole baby story, I'm left wondering what the point was. I still wonder if Fellowes had something else in mind last season but changed it for whatever reason. My only guess for the importance of it going forward is to see what happens betw Peggy's mother and father. I feel like Peggy's story (professional and perhaps romantic) will basically be separate from her parents, while we'll see how (if?) her parents repair their marriage.

Quote

Not interested in the servants, I can hardly tell them apart. The footman and the maid are both still bland.

I basically feel the same. But I like the "French" chef and the English butler -- I don't really know anyone's names yet. And although the character Armstrong is unlikable, Debra Monk is always watchable.

 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

As much as I liked the scenes in this ep re Peggy and the whole baby story, I'm left wondering what the point was. I still wonder if Fellowes had something else in mind last season but changed it for whatever reason. My only guess for the importance of it going forward is to see what happens betw Peggy's mother and father. I feel like Peggy's story (professional and perhaps romantic) will basically be separate from her parents, while we'll see how (if?) her parents repair their marriage.

Yes, it's funny that with all the conflict someone in her position would be facing at that time period, it's just odd to toss this at her instead.

[Carolina Girl]

On 10/29/2023 at 9:39 PM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Am I the only one who thinks the plotlines take second place to the clothing and house porn???

Nope.  Come over here and have a seat next to me....

[Roseanna]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:48 PM, amarante said:

 Also - having just finished watching Pride & Prejudice - the one with Colin Firth for reference - 🤫🤫 Oscar's proposal was hardly one that was wildly romantic in terms of what a naive young girl would imagine in terms of someone sweeping her off her feet. It was very pragmatic in the same way that Mr. Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth Bennett was very formal. At least with Mr. Darcy, his true feelings of passion are revealed at the end - Oscar is never going to achieve that kind of passionate intensity. 

The films and series about Austen's novels give a wrong impression - she wasn't romantic at all. Men who were sexually attractive, Wickham, Willoughby and Henry Crawford, were villains. 

Considering what the marriage determined the woman's whole life, I would actually have liked Oscar's proposal if he had genuinely loved Gladys.   

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

I got the impression that Oscar was taking on the family responsibility and knew he needed more income to do so, so I thought he was (in fact) showing respect for his mother by looking for a rich bride.

I wayched the last episodes of the first season anew and when Oscar spoke to his lover about his reason to woo Gladys, he didn't mention about "family responsiblity" or respecting his mother. His motives were, first, that he hasn't enough money to continue his lifestyle, so he must marry money, and second, that a young man can live like he has done so far, but to an older man it raises suspicions.  

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Although I suspect Oscar's sexuality is an open secret in high society. He's already in his 30s, hanging out with that dashing man friend who is also single, no interest in women, disappearing somewhere at nights. Agnes and Ada are not stupid, I suspect they know.

"No interest in women" isnät correct - Oscar flirts expertly. "Disappearing somewhere in nights" - it could also be a mistress or brothel.

If Oscar's sexuality were an open secret, Larry Russel would have learned it and warned at least his parents, as Oscar began to woo Gladys. 

 

[AntFTW]

10 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

His motives were, first, that he hasn't enough money to continue his lifestyle

I interpreted that slightly differently.

I don't think he was saying he didn't have enough money for his own lifestyle. I think he's trying to keep up with the ostentatious lifestyle of the nouveau riche, a few that we meet in the first season with Mrs. Chamberlain, the Russells obviously, and a cameo from the supposed niece of Henry Flagler, Cissie Bingham. Even though the old money crowd is not as "flashy", the wealth of the new money completely eclipses the wealth of old money.

I think Oscar wants to stay among the influential as he is now, which Oscar believes will remain with the people with the most money. In other words, the level of wealth that the Astors, the Fishes, the van Rhijns, and everyone else has won't be enough to maintain the social influence that they "currently" enjoy.

[EtheltoTillie]

In regard to the Peggy story, everything about it is an extreme example of 21st century issue being viewed anachronistically by 19th century lens.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, shang yiet said:

I am just not interested in Peggy's dull baby storyline. It's not Gilded Age specific, it could have happened to any girl, rich or poor, black or white, in any time period.

Yes, the story is told hundreds of times (and Fellowes has told it several times). 

Also, we didn't see the happenings, we were only told about them. 

9 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

In regard to the Peggy story, everything about it is an extreme example of 21st century issue being viewed anachronistically by 19th century lens.

Yes, however much Peggy insists that she wanted her son back, the truth is that she would then have to sacrifice both her own and her parents' reputation and her prospects as a writer. 

Instead of that sob story I would have liked a story where a younger Peggy would have to choose between the marriage with a man who she fell in love but who, as she herself said, wasn't educated and lacked prospects and her dreams to become a writer. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Roseanna
taken out a word and added a word

[Roseanna]

22 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think that Peggy returning to the house will pull Marian more towards independence and self support, and that she may also be able to influence the older women. I think she is the light coming in through the crack in the door. 

I agree that Peggy's return may help Marian. But does it help Peggy as a writer and an activist?

I understand that Fellowes wants to merge characters' plots, but could they really be friends in 1880s and even sat together in restaurants?

[peeayebee]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Also, we didn't see the happenings, we were only told about them. 

I know!

S1 finale: We're going to go find your son!
S2 premiere: Oh, btw, your son is dead.