S03.E04: The White Room

[DoctorAtomic]

Is Ben's death ruled as an accident? That would explain the lack of police presence. 

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Andrea Martin as makeup artist and Charles' love interest Joy reminds me of Lily Tomlin as dippy Frankie Bergstein on Grace and Frankie (2015–2022).

I'm glad they made Joy a fish lady instead of the stereotypical crazy cat lady.

She probably is a red herring, but in this episode we do have this exchange of lines:

• [JOY] You thinking you need the omelet, that's a hard no. Hard no! That is a crutch.
• [CHARLES] Yeah, it's a crutch! That's good, right?
• [JOY] Look at me, lover. You have me now. I'm the omelet. Say it.
• [CHARLES] You're the omelet.
• [JOY] I'm gonna look out for you, Charlie. Just like I did with Ben Glenroy.

She may be responxible for the first attempt.

6 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Is Ben's death ruled as an accident? That would explain the lack of police presence. 

The police think they have the guy. They arrested crazy stalker guy.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Andrea Martin as makeup artist and Charles' love interest Joy reminds me of Lily Tomlin as dippy Frankie Bergstein on Grace and Frankie (2015–2022).

I'm glad they made Joy a fish lady instead of the stereotypical crazy cat lady.

I see the resemblance to Frankie but I think Joy is being written and played more on the creepy side because they want her to look like a suspect.  Frankie seemed kooky but basically harmless.  I think as the seasons go on they are giving us more red herrings.  I don't really love that so much.  Some actual clues might be nice.

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

She may be responxible for the first attempt.

The police think they have the guy. They arrested crazy stalker guy.

Yep, Joy may be responsible for the first attempt.  Perhaps the two events might not have been that closely related.

Why isn't our crew talking about how the police have it wrong and why?  One would think that if they were so sure it wasn't him they might be concerned that the police arrested the wrong person.  I think they're just following a hunch that it isn't him.  Then again, on what basis are the police holding this guy?  I'm not sure I saw anything from him that on closer inspection would tie him to the crime, unless I missed something, which is possible, or we haven't been shown it.  How could the police arrest someone and be so sure they were the murderer without any real evidence, even circumstantial?  Just being someone's stalker and wacko doesn't make them their murderer or even count as circumstantial evidence.  After a while if the police didn't find anything concrete to tie him to the murder they'd have to start looking for other suspects.   So maybe a police investigation will resume at some point in the future.  It just would be nice to know what is going on from the police's point of view right now.  Otherwise it feels incomplete.

[AllyB]

15 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Maybe "Ben's brother" is not really his brother, though of course he could be and still not disrupt the idea that Ben is a twin. 

It's possible for triplets to consist of two identical twins and one fraternal sibling. It's a more common occurrence than three identical triplets. And actually, the doll props for Charles' patter song were two identical baby dolls and a third different doll. So possibly "two Bens" and a Dickie.
 

Edited August 24, 2023 by AllyB

[chaifan]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

One would think that if they were so sure it wasn't him they might be concerned that the police arrested the wrong person. 

He may not be the right person for Ben's murder, but he kidnapped Charles and Mabel, maybe had intent to murder them (?) so he's rightfully behind bars.  

[cardigirl]

37 minutes ago, chaifan said:

He may not be the right person for Ben's murder, but he kidnapped Charles and Mabel, maybe had intent to murder them (?) so he's rightfully behind bars.  

I think he intended to torture a confession out of them, as he believed THEY had killed Ben, although, killing them after might have figured in to it. 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

He may not be the right person for Ben's murder, but he kidnapped Charles and Mabel, maybe had intent to murder them (?) so he's rightfully behind bars.  

Of course, but I meant they may have arrested the wrong person for the murder and would need to consider other murder suspects.  That doesn't mean he can't be guilty  of other things and deserved to be arrested for them. 

The point is that they can't continue to hold him on murder without something relevant to the murder.  Even kidnapping and threatening Charles and Mabel and being a stalker who has an apartment full of creepy stuff related to the deceased is not necessarily evidence of him being the murderer.  Even we know that and I doubt it would be lost on any really good lawyer either.  It sure looks suspicious, but even so, if they don't find more evidence soon they won't have such a great case.  So there should be a police investigation going on to find that more specific evidence tying him to the murder and if they can't find that, they should be looking at other suspects.  Otherwise their case might not succeed in court or may never even come to trial until they find that evidence.  We don't even know what the DA or the police are doing or thinking at this point and it would be nice to know that otherwise it feels incomplete and not very realistic.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Yeah No

[xander874]

22 hours ago, aghst said:

But she has an expensive wardrobe?

Didn't Mabel say in Season 1 that she is wearing her aunt's clothes? Or maybe the aunt buys her outfits. I do wonder how Mabel eats and pays for anything though.

Agreed on the Joy disappointment. I was so rooting for them and they seemed so sweet together last season but they've leaned into Andrea Martin's quirky abilities to the extreme. Also, did they mention her moving in before this episode? It seemed out of nowhere but I may have just missed it.

[peeayebee]

5 hours ago, AllyB said:

It's possible for triplets to consist of two identical twins and one fraternal sibling. It's a more common occurrence than three identical triplets. And actually, the doll props for Charles' patter song were two identical baby dolls and a third different doll. So possibly "two Bens" and a Dickie.
 

Yes, I didn't consider that. I also never really looked at the baby dolls. They appear to be two boys and a girl, for what that's worth.

[chaifan]

On 8/24/2023 at 8:56 AM, Yeah No said:

The point is that they can't continue to hold him on murder without something relevant to the murder. 

Oh, yeah, I agree with you on that.  I thought your original post was more along the lines that our trio should feel guilty that an innocent man is in jail.  I think he's properly in jail, but just not for the murder part.

But you're right, it's worth a line or two for them to address this.  It could be as simple as hey, do you think we should fill the police in on all of this, so they know whats-his-name crazy guy didn't murder Ben?  Nah, they'll just get in our way.  Let's keep on with our wacky investigation.  OK then!  Off we go! 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by chaifan

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, xander874 said:

Didn't Mabel say in Season 1 that she is wearing her aunt's clothes? Or maybe the aunt buys her outfits. I do wonder how Mabel eats and pays for anything though.

Agreed on the Joy disappointment. I was so rooting for them and they seemed so sweet together last season but they've leaned into Andrea Martin's quirky abilities to the extreme. Also, did they mention her moving in before this episode? It seemed out of nowhere but I may have just missed it.

Maybe Joy being kooky is a misdirect in itself. All she's really done is have a boring hobby of liking fish, hasn't she? And have some other big stuff that clutter the apartment?

[shapeshifter]

Coincidentally (right??) today and yesterday MeTV aired reruns of the old Matlock episodes 7.3 and 7.4, "The Legacy," Parts 1 & 2 (which are at least as convoluted as this season of OMITB) in which Ben Matlock's defendant

Quote

...is accused of murdering a playwright 40 years after [the defendant's] father was charged with murdering the playwright's father
https://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/151965/matlock-7x02-the-legacy

and:

Quote

Matlock [in the current (1992) timeline] and his father [in B&W flashbacks] investigate a 40-year-old [circa 1952] murder, apparently duplicated by the accused murderer's son.
https://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/151965/matlock-7x02-the-legacy

Like OMITB, especially this season, there are a plethora of red herrings in this Matlock double header, including an unpublished, later missing and possibly plagiarized screen play titled "Death Rattle."

[sjankis630]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:20 PM, HelloooKitty said:

I also think Ben (or Ben’s twin) left the message on the mirror. I  think that the reason he was so stressed about the  red mark is bc, if he’s sharing the role, the sibling doesn’t have the mark and they can’t switch out. 

Uh oh shades of The Prestige?

[Zanzibar]

8 hours ago, xander874 said:

Didn't Mabel say in Season 1 that she is wearing her aunt's clothes? Or maybe the aunt buys her outfits. I do wonder how Mabel eats and pays for anything though.

I'm not sure about Season 1, but in Season 2, when she meets Alice, Alice says she wants Mabel's dress.  Mabel replies, "you'd like my aunt's closet, because that's where I got this dress from."

[ofmd]

And many of those clothes can't just be stuffed in a washing machine. How does she afford the dry cleaner, food, other expenses?

OMITB involves a lot of handwaving and suspension of disbelief...

[aghst]

2 minutes ago, ofmd said:

And many of those clothes can't just be stuffed in a washing machine. How does she afford the dry cleaner, food, other expenses?

OMITB involves a lot of handwaving and suspension of disbelief...

A lot of TV shows do.

On Friends, that apartment where Rachel and Monica lived could be worth over $10 million.

 

[Yeah No]

On the Ben being a twin or triplet theory, that's reminding me of an Anna Kendrick movie I just saw on TV.  I don't want to mention the name or any spoilers though.

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, ofmd said:

And many of those clothes can't just be stuffed in a washing machine. How does she afford the dry cleaner, food, other expenses?

 

She is probably always welcome to join Oliver for dips.

The white coat gives me hairballs. I would not get out the door without smudging it.

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe Joy being kooky is a misdirect in itself. All she's really done is have a boring hobby of liking fish, hasn't she? And have some other big stuff that clutter the apartment?

I think Charles is feeling closed in because she is actively changing his life and he is resisting change. Being in a play and working with lots of new people and looking forward to a schedule, those are also major stressors. Minimalist white room makes sense.

The white room always reminds me of Wolfram and Hart....

 

So, the serum is vasiline and club soda?

Edited August 25, 2023 by Affogato

[cardigirl]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe Joy being kooky is a misdirect in itself. All she's really done is have a boring hobby of liking fish, hasn't she? And have some other big stuff that clutter the apartment?

Well, it seemed more like an obsession with fish and the fish store. Plus, when she encouraged Charles to make an omelet to calm himself down and it worked, he was even able to do the patter song perfectly, Joy then said "No! It's a crutch! I'm your omelet now, Charles." UGH. She wasn't being understanding, she was being manipulative and controlling. I didn't find it attractive in the least. 

And poor Charles is easily manipulated and controlled, unfortunately. Look at his track record with women. 

 

[ofmd]

14 hours ago, aghst said:

A lot of TV shows do.

 

Yeah, I'm more used to it with sitcoms. Even those vary, some are better at continuity/ realism, some are worse.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

The white coat gives me hairballs. I would not get out the door without smudging it.

 

Same.

Frankly, I feel the same about the apartment. Nice to look at, but not to live in.

Does anyone know why we aren't getting a new episode this week?

[cardigirl]

2 minutes ago, ofmd said:

Does anyone know why we aren't getting a new episode this week?

We aren't?  *cries*

[ofmd]

Maybe I'm wrong?

[cardigirl]

This schedule shows no interruptions. 

[Ohiopirate02]

14 hours ago, ofmd said:

And many of those clothes can't just be stuffed in a washing machine. How does she afford the dry cleaner, food, other expenses?

OMITB involves a lot of handwaving and suspension of disbelief...

Other than that white coat worn in this episode, I have really not seen Mabel wear clothing that cannot be cleaned at home.  Her sweaters are not getting sent to the dry cleaners.  They can easily be washed at home with a cleanser like Eucalan and laid flat to dry.  That apartment sure is big enough to dry flat.  There's also spot cleaning and refreshing clothes with vodka.  

[ofmd]

Sorry! 😳

I must be having a heat stroke.

But good to know.

ETA: vodka? Never heard of that one!

Edited August 25, 2023 by ofmd

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, ofmd said:

Sorry! 😳

I must be having a heat stroke.

But good to know.

ETA: vodka? Never heard of that one!

It's an old trick employed by costumers--fill a spray bottle with equal parts cheap vodka and distilled water to refresh and disinfect smelly garments that cannot be washed.  

[Enigma X]

If Ben is an identical multiple, isn't he famous enough in this world for that to be known?

[ofmd]

They kept it a secret and either bribed or killed everyone who knew.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, ofmd said:

Does anyone know why we aren't getting a new episode this week?

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

This schedule shows no interruptions. 

And our mod has already set up the thread for the next episode here:

 

[Js Nana]

On 8/22/2023 at 6:20 AM, phalange said:

I think what happened is Joy was the one who fixed whatever red mark Ben had and for some reason her lipstick was left in his dressing room.

I'm guessing she wasn't using the red lipstick to hide Ben's red mark, so how did it get out of the make-up kit to be left behind?

10 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Her sweaters are not getting sent to the dry cleaners.

Why couldn't Mabel's sweaters be sent to the dry cleaner?

[Js Nana]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:25 PM, SeanBug said:

This Andrea Martin is giving me the heebie jeebies.

There does seem to be kind of a sinister air about Joy's dottiness.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think it's more of a possessive girlfriend type than murderer. She's crushed on Charles for literally decades, and they hooked up in the 70s. 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Js Nana said:

I'm guessing she wasn't using the red lipstick to hide Ben's red mark, so how did it get out of the make-up kit to be left behind?

One could imagine any number of ways. For instance, she brought her makeup bag into Ben's dressing room, and while she wasn't looking, Ben took a lipstick out. However, I'm leaning toward Joy having taken it out to use it on herself, and then getting distracted as she put it down, leaving it, and Ben found it later when he was disgusted with himself for chowing down on cookies. But it's not hard to come up with a scenario.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Js Nana said:

Why couldn't Mabel's sweaters be sent to the dry cleaner?

I don't think they were saying they couldn't be, just that they didn't have to be, and since she has no money, they weren't.

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

5 hours ago, Js Nana said:

Why couldn't Mabel's sweaters be sent to the dry cleaner?

I don't think they were saying they couldn't be, just that they didn't have to be, and since she has no money, they weren't.

Forget about the sweaters, what I want to know is how Mabel is supposed to afford any apartment in NYC if she has no money.

[Ohiopirate02]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think they were saying they couldn't be, just that they didn't have to be, and since she has no money, they weren't.

Yes.  It's not that hard to take care of various fabrics at home once you do a bit of research.  And when you grow up in a city like NYC where in home washer and dryers are rare like Mabel, you learn how to handwash.  

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Forget about the sweaters, what I want to know is how Mabel is supposed to afford any apartment in NYC if she has no money.

It's always been her aunts apartment. She's just been living in it.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It's always been her aunts apartment. She's just been living in it.

But now she's looking around for one for herself before, it seems, she's made any money or found a job to pay for it.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But now she's looking around for one for herself before, it seems, she's made any money or found a job to pay for it.

With the way that Mabel did not flinch at the monthly rent at the place she was viewing makes me think her mysterious aunt is also helping to fund her new place.  A cut from the sale of the Arconia apartment perhaps.  Mabel was seeing the new place with an agent or broker, so she's talked to someone about what she can afford in the new place.  No agent or broker is going to waste their time showing apartments to a client who cannot afford the lease.  Though, I can buy the TV magic necessary for Mabel to qualify for a new apartment.  There won't be any Mabel's income needs to be 3 or 10 or 20 times the rent happening here.  I don't expect any TV show to delve deep into the minutia of renting an apartment in NYC.

[Guest]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:23 PM, ofmd said:

And many of those clothes can't just be stuffed in a washing machine. How does she afford the dry cleaner, food, other expenses?

OMITB involves a lot of handwaving and suspension of disbelief...

I don’t think how Mabel survives is a stretch considering she has been house sitting and renovating her aunt’s place. Her aunt could pay her all her expenses and still be saving money compared to hiring professionals. 

On 8/26/2023 at 10:42 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

With the way that Mabel did not flinch at the monthly rent at the place she was viewing makes me think her mysterious aunt is also helping to fund her new place.

I had the opposite reaction. I thought her reaction to the whole thing was because it made her realized she has no chance of finding a place in the area. Which was why she hesitated over Cinda’s offer. 

[paigow]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:19 PM, Enigma X said:

If Ben is an identical multiple, isn't he famous enough in this world for that to be known?

[aghst]

I don't even know why they even make Mabel's impending move out of the building a story line.

Just hand wave it, she's a young woman who doesn't have visible means of financial support, especially compared to the older characters who probably made a lot of money decades before she was even born and bought apartments then, sitting on millions of unrealized gains.

They had to give her a back story in the previous seasons and they showed a relatively humble background.

But they don't need to make it plausible how she lives in that building, how she continues to live there.

The main focus on the show is the adventures of the characters, despite their huge generational and cultural differences.

Because those are probably greater obstacles to her remaining in the building than financial reasons.  Even if she was independently wealthy, a woman at her age would probably look to move to somewhere else where the residents are much closer to her age, even if she doesn't necessarily socialize with them that often.

I'm not sure where the building is suppose to be but my guess is that the neighborhood doesn't attract a lot of younger people around Mabel's age.  The restaurants and entertainment venues probably are geared more for the older residents in the area, so Mabel would probably be more drawn to downtown neighborhoods where her peers would be.

Now the show is trying to depict how special a bond she has with the old guys but she would look to make friends with people her age, in similar life and job situations, if she hasn't already.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think they needed the moving out storyline either. Why bother? The show is about murders in the building. She's not going to move out and come back to solve them.

However, Mabel gives off that 'old lady energy'. I can buy her living there. She had some friends her own age from the 1st season, but I don't see her seeking people out her own age. 

 

 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

I'm not sure where the building is suppose to be but my guess is that the neighborhood doesn't attract a lot of younger people around Mabel's age.  The restaurants and entertainment venues probably are geared more for the older residents in the area, so Mabel would probably be more drawn to downtown neighborhoods where her peers would be.

 

The buildling where the outside is is on the UWS, 86th & Broadway. That's a totally appropriate place for someone her age to live. Not a neighborhood particularly associated with old folks at all. (Same goes for the Ansonia, if we assume the building's name is taken from that. It's just about 12 blocks south.) 

[Blakeston]

I've been thinking about the white room gags. I think part of the reason that it got boring was because it was already taken to the extreme the first time. Everyone's reactions to Charles' initial freakout were so over-the-top that there was no way to build on it.

[paigow]

Mabel needs a cash infusion:

• Start a professional relationship with Cinda
• Find a rich boyfriend / sugar daddy
• Manipulate her Aunt
• Build an art-related consulting / blogging business

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I've been thinking about the white room gags. I think part of the reason that it got boring was because it was already taken to the extreme the first time. Everyone's reactions to Charles' initial freakout were so over-the-top that there was no way to build on it.

Maybe. But the 3rd one did end with Charles unwitting proposal of marriage, which could be considered much further over the top. 

I think maybe the problem with the execution of the White Room series-of-3 gag was that each of the 3 white room instances went on too long (including the lead-up to the white room and the after effects) resulting in them taking up too much of the entire episode.

[Crs97]

Anyone else bothered that when Joy declared herself the omelette and wanted Charles in the bedroom for the antelope, he left the stove on?  I might have screamed at the TV, which my pups did not appreciate.

We’ve seen Oliver be so nice to other actors on his set;  why not Charles?

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Anyone else bothered that when Joy declared herself the omelette and wanted Charles in the bedroom for the antelope, he left the stove on?  I might have screamed at the TV, which my pups did not appreciate.

 

YEEESSSS! You may have heard me screaming with you.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/22/2023 at 10:11 AM, cardigirl said:

I enjoyed Joy so much last season and was looking forward to seeing how that relationship had blossomed, but I guess the writers decided to make her kooky and not in a great way. Ugh. I love Andrea Martin, but like Charles, I'm looking for a way outta this relationship.  Why, why, why does she have to be dotty? 

On 8/22/2023 at 4:27 PM, paramitch said:

This! I really liked Joy last season and found her touching and vulnerable. Now she just seems pushy, entitled, oblivious, and rude. Sigh.

On 8/22/2023 at 5:47 PM, tennisgurl said:

Charles sure can pick em. Even if Joy is a red herring, which I'm sure he is, I am not liking her so much this season. She seemed so nice last season but now it seems like she's turned into some kind of quirky mess. 

On 8/22/2023 at 10:03 PM, callie lee 29 said:

It sucks that they turned Joy into a loon. She was fun last season

On 8/23/2023 at 11:45 AM, Commando Cody said:

I have always liked Andrea Martin. I was happy to see her when the character was first introduced. After this episode, I hated her character. She was kind of over the top nutty - especially about the fish. I no longer saw what Charles liked about her or why he would want her to move in. 

Yes, it's disappointing.

On 8/25/2023 at 9:14 AM, Affogato said:

So, the serum is vasiline and club soda?

Yes, but since Vaseline wouldn't dissolve in/mix with club soda, there's no real way Kimber got the Vaseline into those teeny bottles.  It would have been better if she had said olive oil and club soda, but I guess Vaseline is funnier.

On 8/29/2023 at 10:41 PM, Crs97 said:

Anyone else bothered that when Joy declared herself the omelette and wanted Charles in the bedroom for the antelope, he left the stove on?  I might have screamed at the TV, which my pups did not appreciate.

Yes!  That greatly disturbed me.

[Crs97]

I assume Mabel was living rent free in her aunt’s apartment, and she was in charge of renovating it.  I assume she got paid handsomely for that.  Maybe the podcast is making some money as well after 2 seasons?  That’s my handwave for how she can afford to live without a roommate.