S02.E10: Hegemony

[PurpleTentacle]

On 8/11/2023 at 3:26 AM, historylover820 said:

They should at least drop a line about Boyce. But, he's in the events of The Cage, which is in the past in SNW's events (as in, it's already happened). So, since he's not the CMO during SNW, he's not going to be in the future.

Has it already happened? The writers might be going wonky with time again. They aren't above moving the eugenics wars by 40 years, what is a few years for one episode?

The Cage is supposed to be set in 2254 and season 1 of SNW in 2259. Yet Spock is smiling in the cage, but this season they acted like that was a new thing he had never done before. So maybe the cage is actually still upcoming or was supposed to take place during this season?

On 8/11/2023 at 3:25 PM, tv-talk said:

Are TNG and DS9 NuTrek?

No. They are new Trek. NuTrek begins with Discovery. You know, brain damaged spelling for brain damaged shows. (even though SNW is okay and Lower Decks is great).

 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:00 PM, Affogato said:

I understand, vaguely since I'm not in the profession, that streamers tend to cancel after three years because if the show continues longer people get more benefits, more pay and more residuals. I think this is part of what the current strikes are about, and the streamers are trying to figure out how they are going to survive.

I'm pretty sure that happens after two seasons, not three.

Also the streaming services are trying to figure out how to maximise profits. It has nothing to do with survival.

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

 the gorn coming up close to Batel and then leaving because she was 'pregnant' with gorn eggs, somewhat tacky, also, while I have no objections to the actor, she is no Sigorney Weaver. Her expressions don't change that much.

Also not really in line with what was established about the gorn before.

They did say this episode that the young Gorn were behaving unusual, but somehow that seems less organic and more like the writers changing stuff so they can rip off some more of Alien (and sequels)

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

Maybe the group that devestates other races are a faction of 'back to nature' gorns. The main body of the gorn will need to be convinced to help the galaxy get rid of these embarassing troublemakers.

I fear that would make way too much sense for NuTrek.

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I just don’t see what else they could have told the Enterprise to do. The route Pike took was probably the only one available given the situation and it has resulted in the Gorn capturing more people, more deaths on the Enterprise and the ship being damaged to the point they will have to run. 

Not (just) the Enterprise. They should have sent all the ships in the sector to rip the gorn a new one. They just destroyed a federation ship in neutral space.

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

If it wasn't for a giant asteroid,  we'd still be mouse-like creatures relegated to sneaking around at night hiding from the day loving monsters that ruled the world.

Unlikely. Massive Dinosaurs were already on the decline. Of course any change to the timeline could mean that humans never came to be, thus is the butterfly effect, but evolution tended to smaller creatures anyway. Even the Dinosaurs that are still alive today are pretty small.

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

They can always handwave away the biofilter saying Gorn babies have some chameleon quality that mimics every cell blah blah blah. However Christine will solve the issue, that much we know.

I guess they can always technobabble away anything, but it's really, really hard to believe. How would that work? People are getting split up into their atoms. The transporter has to rebuild you molecule by molecule, DNA strand by DNA strand. In that process it's not supposed to be able to distinguish gorn DNA from humanoid DNA?

NuTrek never liked dealing with the Transporter. Discovery ignored easy solutions involving the transporter about every other episode (worst was when the Admiral exploded, because a blast door only had a switch on one side). But it's an integral part of the lore. If you don't like it, write for another franchise, or at least get creative why it can't be used (which to be fair they at least tried this episode).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Not (just) the Enterprise. They should have sent all the ships in the sector to rip the gorn a new one. They just destroyed a federation ship in neutral space.

Which is why I think it was bad writing to have the Starfleet only tell the Enterprise to stay on their side of the line. We don’t know if reinforcements are being sent. Based on similar encounters on previous shows I find it very unlikely the plan was the Enterprise to wait there alone. When the show picks back up, I will be very surprised if reinforcements don’t arrive almost immediately. Probably Kirk and the Farragut. 

Mostly I think the idea that the Federation should take a more aggressive stance is overestimating the strength of the Federation compared to the Gorn. Every time it comes up, I get the impression they are confident they are incapable of winning a war. There were multiple mentions of the Gorn amassing ships at the edge of Federation space. I have my doubts that they even could “rip the Gorn a new one”. 

[QuantumMechanic]

Hopefully Pike remembers the lesson he learned in "A Quality of Mercy" about being too soft/passive in the face of an aggressive enemy.

[starri]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The Cage is supposed to be set in 2254 and season 1 of SNW in 2259. Yet Spock is smiling in the cage, but this season they acted like that was a new thing he had never done before. So maybe the cage is actually still upcoming or was supposed to take place during this season?

No, we’ve already seen Talos IV on Disco.  Pike also got a psychic visit from Vina.

I think there’s probably some question about how much of “The Cage” is actually canon to SNW.  Clearly, the parts that were reused in “The Menagerie” were, but I can’t remember if Spock grinning at the singing plants was included in the latter.

I know I’m in the minority, but as much as I like the canon, I’m okay with them not being hidebound by it, because I do ultimately find it limiting.  As long as what they’re doing that contradicts it is interesting, I can dig it.  And Ethan Peck has really done great with this.

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It has nothing to do with survival.

Except for the actors & writers.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Ostensibly the Gorn on the Cayuga was trying to access computer to download information on the Federation, learn their tech, get an advantage on their enemy. Something intelligent species would do. Yet apparently it wasn't in communication with its own ship and didn't tell other Gorn the humans were up to something sneaky. Instead it behaved like a monster in a space suit. SnW wanting it both ways.

Let's assume for a moment that the Gorn could communicate with its mothership through the scattering field that they set up, which it might not have been.

There is no indication the Gorn knew the humans were up to something sneaky until it saw Spock was there. When we first see it, it is engrossed in its apparent brute force hacking attack on the Cayuga's computer. Once it sees Spock,  it didn't have a chance to warn its fellow Gorn because it was in a life or death struggle.

How it behaved was probably not significantly different from how a human, Romulan, Klingon or other sentient normal-abilities-having humanoid species would have behaved with the same circumstances: try to kill the threat. Nothing particularly monstrous about that. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, starri said:

No, we’ve already seen Talos IV on Disco.  Pike also got a psychic visit from Vina.

I think there’s probably some question about how much of “The Cage” is actually canon to SNW.  Clearly, the parts that were reused in “The Menagerie” were, but I can’t remember if Spock grinning at the singing plants was included in the latter.

I know I’m in the minority, but as much as I like the canon, I’m okay with them not being hidebound by it, because I do ultimately find it limiting.  As long as what they’re doing that contradicts it is interesting, I can dig it.  And Ethan Peck has really done great with this.

Just doublechecked, and the bit where Pike, Spock and the landing party encounter the vibrating plants and Spock smiles is in "The Menagerie Pt. 1" just under 40 minutes into the episode..

And I will join you in not needing every utterance from TOS or the other series to be on all fours with SNW as long as the broad strokes are and as long as the end result of the departures is worthwhile.

Give me a Trek with sassy Chapel, cooking space dad Pike, etc. over the TOS mousy Chapel, irritated and galaxy-weary Pike, etc. any day. 

I honestly don't know if I would want to watch a series focused around Pike as portrayed by Jeffery Hunter. 

[Frozendiva]

Some of the ep reminded me of Jurassic Park, where the two little Gorn type dinosaurs were playing. Plus Alien.

Didn’t mind meeting Scotty. Pike seemed more command and world weary.

The Gorn could transport half of the crew? Plus the folks on the planet? Will putting Batel in stasis stop the hatch? What preys on the Gorn? Do they not have a natural enemy?

The space junk idea was used in Empire Strikes Back to get the Falcon away from the Imperial Destroyer.

I did like the ep, and not hugely surprised at the to be continued.

 

 

 

 

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

How it behaved was probably not significantly different from how a human, Romulan, Klingon or other sentient normal-abilities-having humanoid species would have behaved with the same circumstances: try to kill the threat. Nothing particularly monstrous about that. 

Threar? It was the threat, instantly attacked and apparently didn't communicate with the mother ship at all, that's total animal instinct with no real thought...despite fact it was trying to hack into computer system.

[tv-talk]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

How would that work? People are getting split up into their atoms. The transporter has to rebuild you molecule by molecule, DNA strand by DNA strand. In that process it's not supposed to be able to distinguish gorn DNA from humanoid DNA?

If you want to look at the transporters as such...they should also be able to clone everyone as well as allow for everyone to be immortal. 

[PurpleTentacle]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

If you want to look at the transporters as such...they should also be able to clone everyone as well as allow for everyone to be immortal. 

I don't want to look at the tranporter as anything. How the tranporter and the biofilters work has been thuroughly established.

On the subject if you can clone poeple the lore is contradictory. It was long established canon that the transporter split you into your atoms and then shot those atoms through space, rebuilding you on the other end. So there are no new atoms and cloning should be impossible. But then there actually were transporter clones, so maybe it does use new atoms from time to time?

Making you immortal would be very complicated. It would need specific changes to DNA and cells, that are predetermined and specially designed. It wouldn't be as easy as "filter out foreign DNA". Though I think with Star Treks medical technology they should easily be able to make people immortal. My headcanon is that they could, but decide against it, because it is part of life (and yes, I know Insurection contradicts this, but we don't talk about the TNG movies).

9 hours ago, Dani said:

Mostly I think the idea that the Federation should take a more aggressive stance is overestimating the strength of the Federation compared to the Gorn. Every time it comes up, I get the impression they are confident they are incapable of winning a war. There were multiple mentions of the Gorn amassing ships at the edge of Federation space. I have my doubts that they even could “rip the Gorn a new one”. 

If that is the case that would be even more of a reason to hit them early and hit them hard. Once the Gorn know that you can't do anything against them, what is stopping them from flying up to Earth and Vulcan and dropping off a few eggs?

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I don't want to look at the tranporter as anything. How the tranporter and the biofilters work has been thuroughly established.

On the subject if you can clone poeple the lore is contradictory. It was long established canon that the transporter split you into your atoms and then shot those atoms through space, rebuilding you on the other end. So there are no new atoms and cloning should be impossible. But then there actually were transporter clones, so maybe it does use new atoms from time to time?

Making you immortal would be very complicated. It would need specific changes to DNA and cells, that are predetermined and specially designed. It wouldn't be as easy as "filter out foreign DNA". Though I think with Star Treks medical technology they should easily be able to make people immortal. My headcanon is that they could, but decide against it, because it is part of life (and yes, I know Insurection contradicts this, but we don't talk about the TNG movies).

It has been established that a transporter accident can split someone into a two beings. Kirk was split into an aggressive and passive version of himself in "The Enemy Within," and Riker was split into a perfect duplicate (as far as we know) in "Second Chances." It follows from those episodes that someone could likely deliberately create conditions to clone someone as many times as they wanted.

The concept of a transporter buffer has been established where the information about you is stored in a computer. This information apparently can be stored indefinitely as data. In TNG's "Relics," Scotty managed to keep his data intact for decades when he jury rigged a system (although he lost data from a colleague). If people are converted to data in a system, it follows there is no reason that data can't be duplicated, or alternatively selectively manipulated. There is no inherent reason that someone could not be held in suspended animation indefinitely that way. Nor is there an inherent reason that the data from a transport yesterday or five years ago or whatever could not be kept and then compared to a transport today. and that the information from the old transport be used to overwrite the current one. Meaning that with enough planning, you could beam back a Marie Batel who had not experienced the events of this episode. Basically, that is what happened in the TNG episode "Unnatural Selection" IIRC. Pulaski was being attacked by superantibodies that prematurely aged her, and through transporter shenanigans, she was restored to her normal self.

Once you introduce the concept of biofilters, it seems almost by definition you should be able to screen the transport information of the Marie Batel who was Gorn-infested to no longer be Gorn-infested.

But because how the transporter works or fails to work is plot-dependent, shrug emoji.

 

[Quickbeam]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Sexy cooking space dad Pike

Slight edit. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It has been established that a transporter accident can split someone into a two beings. Kirk was split into an aggressive and passive version of himself in "The Enemy Within," and Riker was split into a perfect duplicate (as far as we know) in "Second Chances." It follows from those episodes that someone could likely deliberately create conditions to clone someone as many times as they wanted.

The concept of a transporter buffer has been established where the information about you is stored in a computer. This information apparently can be stored indefinitely as data. In TNG's "Relics," Scotty managed to keep his data intact for decades when he jury rigged a system (although he lost data from a colleague). If people are converted to data in a system, it follows there is no reason that data can't be duplicated, or alternatively selectively manipulated. There is no inherent reason that someone could not be held in suspended animation indefinitely that way. Nor is there an inherent reason that the data from a transport yesterday or five years ago or whatever could not be kept and then compared to a transport today. and that the information from the old transport be used to overwrite the current one. Meaning that with enough planning, you could beam back a Marie Batel who had not experienced the events of this episode. Basically, that is what happened in the TNG episode "Unnatural Selection" IIRC. Pulaski was being attacked by superantibodies that prematurely aged her, and through transporter shenanigans, she was restored to her normal self.

Once you introduce the concept of biofilters, it seems almost by definition you should be able to screen the transport information of the Marie Batel who was Gorn-infested to no longer be Gorn-infested.

But because how the transporter works or fails to work is plot-dependent, shrug emoji.

 

Exactly. In Unnatural Selection they didn’t even need a transport pattern since she never used the transporter. Transporters work however the specific plot needs them to work. If the writers wanted to save Batel they easily could write it so some brilliant crew member comes up with the idea and would make it happen. 

[marinw]

The Gorn we see may not be the Gorn who are controlling things. In this way the Gorn remind me not so much of the Borg than of the Cylons. There must be Gorn or Gorn-adjacent beings who build and maintain the Gorn ships and arrange the attacks.  Or else the Gorn we see are the ones in charge? I think we have established that there are several sub-species of Gorn.

Edited August 13, 2023 by marinw

[Frozendiva]

38 minutes ago, marinw said:

The Gorn we see may not be the Gorn who are controlling things. In this way the Gorn remind me not so much of the Borg than of the Cylons. There must be Gorn or Gorn-adjacent beings who build and maintain the Gorn ships and arranging the attacks.  Or else the Gorn we see are the ones in charge? I think we have established that there are several sub-species of Gorn.

I was thinking about this. I would like to see a bit more world-building. These ones seem like worker bees. They may be good at laying eggs and hatching new Gorn, but so far, there is nothing to evidence how they achieved some sort of language, how they evolved over millions of years to develop the technology to have cities, have some sort of civilization to build the ships and weapons, go into space, etc. I get that not all life forms that achieve space travel or certain levels of accomplishments are going to be humanoid, and yes, may be lizards or whatever, but I am a bit puzzled.

Cool shot of the transporter.

https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1690792836101554176

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Frozendiva

[Affogato]

24 minutes ago, marinw said:

The Gorn we see may not be the Gorn who are controlling things. In this way the Gorn remind me not so much of the Borg than of the Cylons. There must be Gorn or Gorn-adjacent beings who build and maintain the Gorn ships and arranging the attacks.  Or else the Gorn we see are the ones in charge? I think we have established that there are several sub-species of Gorn.

all of this is speculation, though. Apparently Starfleet Command is negotiating with the Gorn, but if they have any useful information about the Gorn they are not sharing it. WTH?

We've only seen baby gorn and adult gorn operating sophisticated spacefaring technology.  I think it is more likely that Gorn are as similar to each other as humans, but that reproduction is tightly controlled on egg laying farms and that predation is severely limited and controlled, as would be necessary on a crowded civilized planet of Gorn. The prey planets and the attacks on colonies may be a faction of Gorn that are unwilling to accept these limitations, acting to some extent outside of existing Gorn law? Maybe the setting of boundaries is a way to establish hunting space, and Gorn (like many predatory groups) are also territorial.

I could easily be wrong.

By the way I'm starting to accept the future Chapel/Spock relationship as being a possible outcome of this Chapel/Spock relationship. She goes away, hooks up with someone else, and over time he becomes more distant in general, but especially from her, because she can act as a kind of trigger for his emotions. I can't quite figure out the sniggery comments of Kirk and McCoy in Amok Time, because at least Kirk should know the story and it seems uncharacteristically unkind. Probably nothing to be done about it, though.

[baldryanr]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Exactly. In Unnatural Selection they didn’t even need a transport pattern since she never used the transporter. Transporters work however the specific plot needs them to work. If the writers wanted to save Batel they easily could write it so some brilliant crew member comes up with the idea and would make it happen. 

If they're going to use the transporter then good news for Batel, a brilliant engineer has just beamed aboard!  Although one does wonder how good the stasis field is.  If they really can "freeze" a person indefinitely then shouldn't there be a bunch of terminally ill people on Earth just waiting for a cure to be developed?  It's the same with M'Benga's solution of sticking someone in the transporter buffer - there's too much of a risk of something happening on a ship, but set up a facility on Earth and the risks of an attack/power outage are minimal.

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

If they're going to use the transporter then good news for Batel, a brilliant engineer has just beamed aboard!  Although one does wonder how good the stasis field is.  If they really can "freeze" a person indefinitely then shouldn't there be a bunch of terminally ill people on Earth just waiting for a cure to be developed?  It's the same with M'Benga's solution of sticking someone in the transporter buffer - there's too much of a risk of something happening on a ship, but set up a facility on Earth and the risks of an attack/power outage are minimal.

Khan and his people were cryogenically frozen indefinitely.

[Affogato]

20 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm pretty sure that happens after two seasons, not three.

Also the streaming services are trying to figure out how to maximise profits. It has nothing to do with survival.

 

I have read a few articles, Paramount Plus is one of the streamers that a lot of people think may struggle in the new environment and possibly merge with someone else or not survive in its present form.

[tv-talk]

I think once they started doing all the saved pattern stuff with the transporter they moved away from it being your original atoms and the case can be made the transporter reassembles you from scratch each time.  Which is consistent with how the food replicators seem to work, the ship isn't stocked with every imaginable food, rather the replicator assembles whatever you want out of thin air based on knowing pattern of the item.

[statsgirl]

On 8/12/2023 at 3:09 PM, tv-talk said:

If it wasn't for a giant asteroid,  we'd still be mouse-like creatures relegated to sneaking around at night hiding from the day loving monsters that ruled the world.

We might. But then in 65 million years, another species would have developed higher intelligence, possible some of the dinosaurs, possibly another species.

The Gorn can't be both an instinctive unthinking organism and still be smart enough for space travel and to conquer other worlds and make treaties.

The writers of TOS have all my admiration for what they came up with but we've had almost 60 year of development in science and understanding since then not to mention the ability (sometimes) to think beyond the US being the centre of the universe. Sometimes what they came up with just doesn't hold together given what we know now.

[marinw]

If you take transporter technology to the extreme, you can cure any injury or disease and bring back anybody who ever died and clone everybody. The writers need to use some restraint with the transporter tech or it will be a catchall for all the problems. 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, marinw said:

If you take transporter technology to the extreme, you can cure any injury or disease and bring back anybody who ever died and clone everybody. The writers need to use some restraint with the transporter tech or it will be a catchall for all the problems. 

I agree. I really hope these writers don’t use the transporters in that manner. TNG writers relied on transporters to fix way too many problems which was lazy writing and created lots of plot holes. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Sam Kirk and his pornstache. Yikes. Why don't one of his fellow humans tell him how silly he looks?

I thought Carol Kane looked particularly fabulous in this episode.

TMW you're trying to kill a Gorn and the girlfriend you thought was dead shows up to help.

Are the Gorn considered sentient or not? Seemed to me that beaming all the remaining survivors and crew up to their ship before the Enterprise could rescue them was an intelligent tactical move.

Not thrilled with the cliffhanger since for sure there's going to be an extended wait for Season 3.  But I imagine it'll be worth the wait.

[paigow]

13 hours ago, marinw said:

Or else the Gorn we see are the ones in charge?

Boss Gorn: I need a human name for negotiations...

Lackey Gorn: Gorn Washington

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Sam Kirk and his pornstache. Yikes. Why don't one of his fellow humans tell him how silly he looks?

Because he dies with it

[Joimiaroxeu]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Because he dies with it

Okay but wasn't the main reason TOS Sam Kirk had a mustache because William Shatner played the role? The show needed a simple way to distinguish Sam from from his brother James T.

On ST:SNW the role of Sam is being played by a different actor than the one who plays James T and they're easy to tell apart. So, IMO, the mustache ploy is no longer needed. Get rid of the pornstache!

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Because he dies with it

Okay but wasn't the main reason TOS Sam Kirk had a mustache because William Shatner played the role? The show needed a simple way to distinguish Sam from from his brother James T.

On ST:SNW the role of Sam is being played by a different actor than the one who plays James T and they're easy to tell apart. So, IMO, the mustache ploy is no longer needed. Get rid of the pornstache!

Expand  

SNW!Sam  has to leave Starfleet soon... April likely sends a shave command via Pike. Kirk quits rather than comply. Gets married, has children and moves to Planet Death...

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Are the Gorn considered sentient or not? Seemed to me that beaming all the remaining survivors and crew up to their ship before the Enterprise could rescue them was an intelligent tactical move.

It's clear that at least some Gorn have the capacity for rational thought, if that's what you mean by "sentient."

It is IMO impossible to have non-sentient beings operate spaceships. We have seen directly SNW Gorn operate ships well enough to threaten Enterprise on a couple occasions, send a map of space with a demarcation line, create and use a jamming field,  and attempt to hack a computer in addition to beaming up the survivors.

In TOS's "Arena," we know the Gorn set up a ruse to try to kill Kirk and his most experienced crew by sending out an invite that was supposedly from the colony's governor. In that one, the Gorn communicate through speech.

[Starchild]

13 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I thought Carol Kane looked particularly fabulous in this episode.

Speaking of, does anyone know what that extra ornamentation is on the chest of her uniform, along with the delta?

[kay1864]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:58 AM, baldryanr said:

Every time we see the Gorn I'm more convinced the one Kirk fought was an arthritic senior citizen.

Same! One with a really really bad cold.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/12/2023 at 12:13 AM, Prevailing Wind said:

Another reason why I think it's feasible that there are two species named Gorn. If they get a redemption arc, how do you explain Arena?

"Redemption arc" may be too strong a term.

The SNW Gorn so far have been presented as unrepentant, merciless and yes, monstrous with pretty much nothing in common with normal humanoids. They hit several human taboos, like eating sentient beings.

There have been hints dropped in this episode that Starfleet may fundamentally not understand the Gorn and that at least some of their assumptions about Gorn behavior is wrong.

I have 10,000 quatloos that says that whenever we see the second part Pike will prove correct and there will be some additional understanding that Pike and co. will glean that will allow for a detente with the Gorn.

All this is to say that I do not anticipate they will have a full-on redemption arc to make them good guys or mostly-goodish guys like the transition of Klingons from antagonists to allies from TOS to TNG or the transition of Romulans from adversaries to refugees largely dependent on the Federation between the TNG era and Picard. 

But I strongly suspect the second part of this will take them closer to the sort of Gorn seen in Arena: no velicoraptor/xenomorph-like Gorn in sight because they are held back, basic human-like tactics of deception and motivations of wanting to protect their territory from perceived incursion.

How one squares the circle from the Gorn being such a feared group that Starfleet is concerned about all-out-war erupting between them as of SNW and that Pike's Enterprise has now encountered multiple times (and may still in the future) and TOS Kirk acting like he had never heard of them and none of the crew of his Enterprise crew saying "Actually, Captain, that's the freaking Gorn" is an act beyond even my normally impressive fanwanking powers.

[Maverick]

 Although we don't know when, we do know the Xindi join the Federation.  Even if they aren't part of the Federation yet they should be getting the Xindi-Reptelian's insight on dealing with a reptilian race.   And if they are part of the Federation, it should be the Xindi fronting at least the negotiations of not the war with the Gorn.   

 

[tv-talk]

While I'm sure the resolve will be 'they're just like locusts that head toward Sun instinctual, not their fault, and now we'll trick them into leaving via Scotty and Carol Kane"....I don't think they'll resolve the discrepancy of Kirk not knowing them. If the day comes they're redoing TOS eps with this Kirk, he'll know he's facing a Gorn.

[Affogato]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:22 PM, Maverick said:

 Although we don't know when, we do know the Xindi join the Federation.  Even if they aren't part of the Federation yet they should be getting the Xindi-Reptelian's insight on dealing with a reptilian race.   And if they are part of the Federation, it should be the Xindi fronting at least the negotiations of not the war with the Gorn.   

 

Honestly, 'reptilian', really? Even on earth a red panda is not a racoon. There isn't any reason that the two beings, 'reptilian' in appearance, have anything in common.

[Maverick]

 Nevermind.   Not worth it.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Maverick

[Ottis]

On 8/13/2023 at 2:58 PM, Affogato said:

By the way I'm starting to accept the future Chapel/Spock relationship as being a possible outcome of this Chapel/Spock relationship.

That was always visible, I think I posted about it 3-4 eps ago, as I am still catching up. Chapel and SPock ran hot, then split, then connected again in TOS, and some of Chapel's TOS lines can be read as acknowledging their past and Spock's new formality ("my name is Christine") vs. an introduction. The slow introduction of Korby is following the same path. It isn't perfect, but neither is Pike's quarters being huge with open flames or Sick Bay being even bigger. It's 60 years later IRT, the writers can't follow the limitations of TOS. I'm a lifelong ST fan, and I'm good with it.

This Gorn ep was so good at times, and then so nonsensical. I love that the Gorn are the Big Bad for SNW, the equal of aspects of the Romulans and Klingons from TOS. It makes me think about how lizards can be a space faring species, and whether there are lizards who specialize like Navigators from Dune, and how they might communicate with light, and why they seem to be so aggressive.

Sadly, the show has spent very little time on the Gorn. Instead, with only 10 eps a season, it has wasted time with silly singing and fantasy eps.

This ep actually gave me goosebumps at its cold open. FINALLY, a threat emerges, and our cast has to figure it out and decide what to do, while we as viewers are also learning along with them. This is why I love Star Trek.

I would prefer it if we met new characters with skills vs. having so many characters be people from TOS. This Scotty was fine (unlike the SNW Jim Carrey Kirk). But can't he just be some other engineer, who maybe later meets up with Scotty off screen and inspires him? Let a new actor sit at the ST Convention table.

I like some of the SNW relationships (and Ortega has grown on me this season), but a little can go a long way. Spock and Chapel, Pike and what's-her-name, Uhura and everyone. Enough. Let's focus on exploration.

This ep bogged down on the planet. Not sure why, exactly. But it went from interesting and tense to pedestrian pretty fast. The Alien-copied scene with the baby Gorn breaking off attack was such a trope that I understood what happened as it happened and didn't even think twice about it. 

Hated the cliffhanger - not because it was a cliffhanger, but because it painted Pike as indecisive. There is a reason the ST:TNG Borg cliffhanger is so memorable. It ends with Riker saying, firmly, "Fire!" This cliffhanger looked like Pike was incapacitated mentally. Ugh.

SNW has a lot of things to like, including some things I wasn't sure about for a while. But it wastes so much time on silliness and true wuv. I can imagine a writer's room where they are saying, "I don't want to write an ep about confronting a new species - that's been done! So let's do a musical!" If that is happening, those writers are more about themselves than about writing a good show. SNW is about exploration. Explore first, add in characters in the process. 

On 8/15/2023 at 7:06 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I have 10,000 quatloos that says that whenever we see the second part Pike will prove correct and there will be some additional understanding that Pike and co. will glean that will allow for a detente with the Gorn.

I think that's right. And it may start with using light in a way that causes the Gorn to go somewhere else, where they then will be either trapped or where that detente may freeze the boundaries a la The Neutral Zone in TOS.  I actually would prefer that the Gorn continue to be merciless and mysterious, at least for another season or so.

On 8/15/2023 at 7:06 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

How one squares the circle from the Gorn being such a feared group that Starfleet is concerned about all-out-war erupting between them as of SNW and that Pike's Enterprise has now encountered multiple times (and may still in the future) and TOS Kirk acting like he had never heard of them and none of the crew of his Enterprise crew saying "Actually, Captain, that's the freaking Gorn" is an act beyond even my normally impressive fanwanking powers.

Could it be something like the various shows have done with Klingons? Maybe the Gorn, in their coming isolation, regress? Or a disease kills all the healthy Gorn? Or they mate with Sleestaks and we see the eventual result? Gotta be a way.

[phlebas]

Latecomer to the thread. Apologies if I touch on things that have been covered already -- I did read through it, but I may have missed some things.

I went in thinking Marie was done. She still might be, but I'd kind of like to see a Starfleet captain with a relationship instead of another in a long line of confirmed bachelors and bachelorettes (or tragic widowers). 

Maybe no one dies. Or maybe...

The Gorn made off with four named characters, two of which have some pretty solid plot armor.  Sam Kirk and M'Benga both exist (briefly) in TOS, and bumping either off early would be admitting we're in a different or altered timeline from the originals. 

La'an -- my favorite of the new characters, even if that makes me in the tiny minority around here -- doesn't have plot armor, but we have spent a lot of time developing her this season, and there is still more to mine from the Khan relationship. Having her killed by Gorn after everything she's lived through would be pretty harsh.

That leaves Ortegas, who we know nothing about and we know is gone from the ship by the time Kirk takes over, if not sooner.  Plus, Boimler called her a "war hero" -- at the time I thought he meant the Klingon War, but what if he meant the Gorn one we're about to start? Maybe she sacrifices herself to save her crewmates and the colonists? That would save production the trouble of giving her a backstory apart from being bitter about Klingons.

So that's my bet -- Ortegas ends up in the Great Sideburn Trimmer Chair in the sky. Una takes over as helmsman until they are ready to either give us Sulu or an interim pilot.

I have no idea about contract statuses or anything, I understand they were scheduled to start filming season 3 the day after the strike started, so it seems the scripts are done.

And SNW is breaking all kinds of streaming records, considering the size of its platform compared to Netflix or Amazon. No way is it canceled after next season.

OKay, back into my hole.  Gotta go crank up Lower Decks.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, phlebas said:

Latecomer to the thread. Apologies if I touch on things that have been covered already -- I did read through it, but I may have missed some things.

I went in thinking Marie was done. She still might be, but I'd kind of like to see a Starfleet captain with a relationship instead of another in a long line of confirmed bachelors and bachelorettes (or tragic widowers). 

Maybe no one dies. Or maybe...

The Gorn made off with four named characters, two of which have some pretty solid plot armor.  Sam Kirk and M'Benga both exist (briefly) in TOS, and bumping either off early would be admitting we're in a different or altered timeline from the originals. 

La'an -- my favorite of the new characters, even if that makes me in the tiny minority around here -- doesn't have plot armor, but we have spent a lot of time developing her this season, and there is still more to mine from the Khan relationship. Having her killed by Gorn after everything she's lived through would be pretty harsh.

That leaves Ortegas, who we know nothing about and we know is gone from the ship by the time Kirk takes over, if not sooner.  Plus, Boimler called her a "war hero" -- at the time I thought he meant the Klingon War, but what if he meant the Gorn one we're about to start? Maybe she sacrifices herself to save her crewmates and the colonists? That would save production the trouble of giving her a backstory apart from being bitter about Klingons.

So that's my bet -- Ortegas ends up in the Great Sideburn Trimmer Chair in the sky. Una takes over as helmsman until they are ready to either give us Sulu or an interim pilot.

I have no idea about contract statuses or anything, I understand they were scheduled to start filming season 3 the day after the strike started, so it seems the scripts are done.

And SNW is breaking all kinds of streaming records, considering the size of its platform compared to Netflix or Amazon. No way is it canceled after next season.

OKay, back into my hole.  Gotta go crank up Lower Decks.

Just because Ortegas doesn't appear in TOS does not mean that Ortegas is off the Enterprise or dead by the time the TOS episodes take place. At a guess, we see maybe somewhere on the order of 200ish crew and extras during the course of TOS, and the ship's complement is 430. 

My prediction is no one dies. 

[phlebas]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Just because Ortegas doesn't appear in TOS does not mean that Ortegas is off the Enterprise or dead by the time the TOS episodes take place.

It definitely doesn't mean she's dead. She could happily survive the Gorn attack and continue at the helm for the rest of the series.  Starfleet is a military organization -- she could get transferred off the ship later.

I think it's highly unlikely she's still on the Enterprise in the TOS era.  She's the first shift helmsman and, apparently, a war hero.  Her being promoted and transferred and Sulu ultimately taking over seems more likely than her getting demoted and moving to the night shift, or becoming a chef or something.

The reason I'm assuming someone dies is because they have sort of set Batel up for a good ol' refrigerating, and I'm assuming that's a misdirection. Ortegas lifts out more easily than any other named character on the show.

No one dying is probably my backup choice. Having Marie explode from hatching eggs or getting euthanized by Chapel or M'Benga would be pretty dark.

All of this may change in my mind if I hear that Melissa Navia or Melanie Scrofano is unhappy with her lack of screen time. Or are traumatized by having to sing.

[Affogato]

14 hours ago, phlebas said:

 

So that's my bet -- Ortegas ends up in the Great Sideburn Trimmer Chair in the sky. Una takes over as helmsman until they are ready to either give us Sulu or an interim pilot.

I also like La'an.

They did showcase Ortegas just enough, without giving her any continuing plots.

I hope not, though. 

 

[Ceindreadh]

8 hours ago, phlebas said:

It definitely doesn't mean she's dead. She could happily survive the Gorn attack and continue at the helm for the rest of the series.  Starfleet is a military organization -- she could get transferred off the ship later.

I think it's highly unlikely she's still on the Enterprise in the TOS era.  She's the first shift helmsman and, apparently, a war hero.  Her being promoted and transferred and Sulu ultimately taking over seems more likely than her getting demoted and moving to the night shift, or becoming a chef or something.

The reason I'm assuming someone dies is because they have sort of set Batel up for a good ol' refrigerating, and I'm assuming that's a misdirection. Ortegas lifts out more easily than any other named character on the show.

No one dying is probably my backup choice. Having Marie explode from hatching eggs or getting euthanized by Chapel or M'Benga would be pretty dark.

All of this may change in my mind if I hear that Melissa Navia or Melanie Scrofano is unhappy with her lack of screen time. Or are traumatized by having to sing.

AFAIK, Melissa Navia's lack of screen time/showcase plots was at least in part due to the fact that her partner died suddenly just before filming for season 2 and TPTB were trying to give her space to grieve.  So it's not like she was just sidelined for no reason.  Hopefully Ortegas will not only survive to season 3, but get her episode in the spotlight as well. 

 

[marina to]

On 9/8/2023 at 6:41 AM, phlebas said:

All of this may change in my mind if I hear that Melissa Navia or Melanie Scrofano is unhappy with her lack of screen time. Or are traumatized by having to sing.

Can't speak to Scrofano but Navia is a musical theatre vet and may be more unhappy she didn't get to sing more.

[Tyro49]

I don't know how long ago this was written/filmed, etc., but it was probably some time ago, presumably well before the writers/actors strikes became serious possibilities. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have left it on a cliffhanger otherwise (at least I hope not). All those special effects take time to work in.

[phlebas]

On 9/9/2023 at 9:06 PM, marina to said:

Can't speak to Scrofano but Navia is a musical theatre vet and may be more unhappy she didn't get to sing more.

I wonder if her musical theater experience is more behind the scenes type work as opposed to being a performer.  The few lines she had weren't bad or anything, but nothing really sounded like she was a trained singer.

Or maybe I have a tin ear :)

[phlebas]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:33 PM, Ceindreadh said:

AFAIK, Melissa Navia's lack of screen time/showcase plots was at least in part due to the fact that her partner died suddenly just before filming for season 2 and TPTB were trying to give her space to grieve.  So it's not like she was just sidelined for no reason.  Hopefully Ortegas will not only survive to season 3, but get her episode in the spotlight as well. 

 

I had heard her partner died, but it hadn't clicked it happened right before filming began. What a nightmare.

I don't know how much that would change things, though.  Sure, she was missing the first few episodes, as was Anson Mount, but if they had already written a whole episode focused on her, they wouldn't have just scrapped it and rewritten it -- they would have just filmed it later and dropped it in wherever it made sense in the broadcast order. 

But in light of her partner, writing her off the show right after seems a little cruel, unless she wanted it.

[tv-talk]

So I am actually hoping Ortega or La'an dies- not because I dont like them (tho I dont like how La'an is written), but because it makes for a better, more realistic story! I mean the Gorn transported them all up- some people have to die or the Gorn are just a silly fake threat that will be resolved by shining a cosmic light that Scotty and the old lady rig up causing the Gorn to fly away to another galaxy. 

And that very well could be how the whole thing plays out. However I am hoping for a better story and that would involve some type of loss. My money is on Batel saving everyone through sacrificing herself- you can see it coming miles away as someone has to go and they arent killing Ortega or La'an. 

[chaifan]

Late to the party here.  I only started watching SNW this summer, and tried to delay watching Season 2 knowing it would be a while before Season 3.  But I only have so much willpower, so I slow binged the whole season over the last 2 weeks. 

Random thoughts on this episode and the show in general...  (and, just for context, I watched less than 1/2 season of Discovery before giving up on that show, so never saw any of SNW characters before this.)

I'll start with the Gorn.  My biggest irk about the Gorn is why they have to be the Gorn.  Why couldn't this be some new species that has never been discussed before?  I just don't understand why the new Trek series insist on taking an old concept/character/species and changing it soooooo  much from the TOS version that it is unrecognizable and creates such dissent among the viewers.  What's the point?  It would have made no difference if this big bad species were called Norg instead of Gorn.  There's no reason for it to be Gorn. 

Pike.  Love him.  Took an episode or two to get used to him.  Wish they would deflate the hairdo a bit.  But I really do love this Pike.  I love that he cooks, hangs out with his crew, is willing to break the rules but only to a point. 

Spock.  Also love him.  Took almost no time to accept Ethan Peck as Spock.  I like him in his normal Spock moments, but really love how he's handled the very un-Spock moments we've had in the 2nd season. 

Kirk.  Add me to the list of people who see Paul Wesley as Jim Carrey doing an impersonation of Kirk.  I see no Kirk in this Kirk.  I'm willing to accept a difference in characters in Uhura and Chapel just because those characters really need to be updated to fit into a modern show.  (Chapel's eyebrows are a distraction for me, though.  Sometimes she looks like a Muppet.)  But this Kirk is foreign to me.  The hair is all wrong (way too dark), there's no attempt for Wesley to sound like Kirk, in tone or cadence.  Compared to Peck's Spock, it fails in every respect.  Also, Sam Kirk is annoying as hell, and serves no purpose for me.

Season 2 as a whole.  I was a little hesitant going into Season 2, thinking it was going to be a continuing plot of Federation vs. Gorn, and I had no interest in an entire season of that.  So even though there was a little more silliness than I'd normally like in a 10 episode season of Trek, I liked it.  It was Orville meets Trek for me.  I have never watched Lower Decks, but loved that cross-over episode.  The musical episode doesn't come close to "One More Time with Feeling", but was still entertaining.

Episode 2.10.  A solid cliffhanger for me, but it just sucks we'll have to wait so long for Season 3.  I think Pelia will survive, but will go back to the Academy.  I like the theories on Ortegas dying a war hero vs. returning just to go to another ship before Kirk takes over.  I also noted Betel was put in the malfunctioning bio bed, and wondered if that would play into whatever happens to her.  I thought the "gotcha" moment of the survivors not being beamed to the Enterprise, but to the Gorn ship was well played.  I didn't see that coming.