S02.E09: Subspace Rhapsody

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

Maybe Star Trek: Chef Pike could be more appropriate.

Reliant Captain

[Affogato]

43 minutes ago, paigow said:

Reliant Captain

honestly, he should do a few 15 minute episodes.

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, driver18 said:

Speaking of, I'm surprised at the number of comments I've read dragging Chapel for her treatment of Spock in this episode calling her cold and awful to him. I feel in that case that people were either a) ignoring what happened last week, b) not paying attention to what happened this week, and/or c) woobifying Spock.

Chapel and Spock basically broke up last week. So, when Chapel got that news about her fellowship, of course, she was not going to rush to tell her ex about it first of all but rather celebrate with her friends. She would let know Spock later once she got her celebrating done and she was ready to deal with the downer conversation that would result in telling him. She and Spoke broke up; the onus is not on HER to think about how the ex will feel about her life choices and how she chooses to celebrate them. It's about HER feelings, not his.

Spock was in the wrong to come and walk in on her celebration and be like: 'Yo, why didn't you tell me?' He made HER celebration about himself rather than about her, ruining her mood, her celebration. Chapel was not in the wrong. Spock was.

 

There is more to be said about that. Chapel seems to have been Spock's first girlfriend, and he appears to have committed more emotion to the relationship than it deserved, considering how far it had progressed. This would also be his first breakup. Also, growing up he would not have had many ways to learn how to have relationships and how to act when they broke up.

That said, it is perhaps understandable why Chapel acts the way she does, she is happy and doesn't want to feel bad at this time, but if she had been a sensitive and caring person, she would have handled things differently. And she was in some ways the adult to his child. She was kind of a jerk, even if she did not mean to be a jerk and can be forgiven.

I liked the show and the singing, I thought Peck had a good voice, as did many of them. The story was stronger than the songs, but I suspect the fallout will happen later, when people leave the ship or die, this seems to be leading into changes for the crew and storylines.

I will miss the human side of Spock.

[ofmd]

Regarding Spock, maybe the breakup wasn't abvious to him and she could have been clearer.  What I remember is she told Spock he couldn't help her with certain things.

But as to Chapel's motivation, it was clearly given to us in the crossover episode:

Boimler told her "accidentally" that from the view of the future, they were not a notable item. So if she tried to make it work anyway, that might change the whole future and the great things he will accomplish might not be accomplished. A variation of the woman sacrificing herself so as not to hinder The (future) Great Man from Doing Great Things. We're lucky that she didn't fall onto a sword or waste away from tuberculosis/ a broken heart, while singing a very sad aria.

Or maybe she just told herself, it's not gonna work anyway, so let's just rip the band-aid off right now before it hurts even more.

My point, and I do have one, she's not breaking up with him for selfish reasons or because she's a floozy, quite the contrary.

She'll use the scholarship to distance herself and do something she loves, focusing on the joy and sense of freedom it brings her. (TOS spoilers)

Spoiler

Kind of ironic that this feeling will be over in a couple of months, when after a short engagement, she'll spend her days not-so-secretly pining for Spock all day...

I've always found this storyline very soapish and annoying, but I hate that the way it ended leaves so many people confused.

All that said, even IF she was prioritizing her career over her love life -- it's very telling that this never seems to be an issue when discussing, say, later Spock or Kirk... or SNW Spock wrt T'Pring... or Pike...

Edited August 4, 2023 by ofmd

[Chicago Redshirt]

25 minutes ago, Affogato said:

There is more to be said about that. Chapel seems to have been Spock's first girlfriend, and he appears to have committed more emotion to the relationship than it deserved, considering how far it had progressed. This would also be his first breakup.

You're forgetting T'Pring. SNW Spock, it seems to me, was not just in an arranged marriage with T'Pring but was doing the deed. And they clearly broke up.

Now Spock may not have had the same level of emotions toward T'Pring as he does toward Christine, but there was some level of emotions there, and there was a breakup.

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

You're forgetting T'Pring. SNW Spock, it seems to me, was not just in an arranged marriage with T'Pring but was doing the deed. And they clearly broke up.

Now Spock may not have had the same level of emotions toward T'Pring as he does toward Christine, but there was some level of emotions there, and there was a breakup.

I think the Vulcan method may be more straightforward and unambiguous. Less margin for hope. 

[Frozendiva]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

You have any Ferengi audio tech support?

Which Rule of Acquisition?

[Frozendiva]

I do like musicals and I did enjoy the ep. I would have liked more emotion in the singing, but…. most of the cast had decent voices. I am not a KPop fan and the Klingons reminded me of the Solid Gold dancers.

I was also a bit confused about Carol Marcus. Thought Kirk did not know he had a son. Could be wrong.

Batel seems doomed with the we will find a vacation spot we will both like comment.

Roger Corby has been mentioned a couple of times. Wonder if he will be making an appearance.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 minutes ago, Frozendiva said:

I was also a bit confused about Carol Marcus. Thought Kirk did not know he had a son. Could be wrong.

My impression was that Kirk knew about David, but David didn't know that Kirk was his dad until The Wrath of Khan.

I may check that movie out just to see.

[Chit Chat]

Please show, no more musicals!!  What a waste of an episode.  😝

[Prevailing Wind]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

You have any Ferengi audio tech support?

Nope. I don't have the lobes.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

Which Rule of Acquisition?

More like Rule of Coercion...

Cmdr Worf forced Ensign / Cadet Nog to optimize speakers for Klingon Opera.

 

[LydiaMoon1]

7 hours ago, whiporee said:

If Uhura is the genius she's being presented as, why does she have the same job at least five years later?

I think the show has done an admirable job of providing an exceedingly plausible explanation of why Uhura was so tethered to the Enterprise. At 22, she's lost her mother, her father and her brother to a tragic accident and she's lost Hemmer, the person she was closest to on the ship. She felt alone and unattached. It wasn't until she realized that being a part of the crew of the Enterprise gave her a new home. She belongs. Why would she leave that?

[baldryanr]

14 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

I think the show has done an admirable job of providing an exceedingly plausible explanation of why Uhura was so tethered to the Enterprise. At 22, she's lost her mother, her father and her brother to a tragic accident and she's lost Hemmer, the person she was closest to on the ship. She felt alone and unattached. It wasn't until she realized that being a part of the crew of the Enterprise gave her a new home. She belongs. Why would she leave that?

Plus the Enterprise is the flagship - if she wants to stay in Starfleet there aren't many places that would be better, at least during the initial stages of her career. 

The only reason for the senior officers to leave is to pursue a specialized opportunity (like Chapel) or if they want their own command (or to be a first officer).  I'm assuming that's why Una eventually departs rather than dying, because would they really make her the poster woman of Starfleet if she dies in the line of duty?

[historylover820]

Regarding the TOS canon -- 

I'm happiest if I think of SNW as part of an alternative universe than TOS.

But I did like the sprinkling of TOS canon in this one. It's been a while since I've seen WoK, but I'm very sure Kirk knew about David. David didn't know about Kirk (or he did know about Kirk and didn't want anything to do with him). Carol asked Kirk to stay away due to his career.

I think I'm remembering it right. Probably give me an excuse to pull out my blu-ray.

Regarding Chapel/Spock's breakup--

This relationship was my biggest issue about tying SNW into TOS. And it still is. But, it's clear that Spock, ironically, was more emotionally invested in the relationship than Chapel was. Chapel seemed to act like it was a fling. I don't think Spock understood that.

Spock has kind of been dragged through the wringer this season. Becomes human, broke up with T'Pring (which wasn't emotional, it was logical). 

What I saw from Chapel is not necessarily cold, unfeeling, or a jerk. She was also told a couple episodes ago that her and Spock don't end up together, and she wanted some time to deal with her feelings about the war, while someone who never experienced war is trying to get her to talk.

I also just saw that she's wanting to move on, to take this new opportunity. Interestingly she gets involved with Korby and comes whimpering back to the Enterprise and begins pining for Spock again while pining for Korby (well, for one episode).

Although, I haven't reconciled how JB's Christine Chapel leads into MB's Christine Chapel. I can kind of see how CRG's Uhura becomes NN's Uhura, due to Uhura's fleshed out background, wanting to belong, working on the flagship. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

7 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I counted 3 encounters...with something... new: the ones communicating with Uhura, the ones that changed Spock to Human and whatever causes the musical frenzy (I fast forwarded a lot so I might miss something here).

But indeed, I think the show does not justify its title.
Maybe Star Trek: Chef Pike & Friends could be more appropriate.

I love how the original description for this series was something like "a decade before James T. Kirk takes over as captain of the Enterprise ...", and yet here we are in the 2nd season and he's heavily trending towards practically being part of the crew already.

I honestly don't care that they've introduced JTK already and have him as a regular, but don't promote the show like the audience wouldn't meet him for quite some time yet, but then turn around and have him already appear at the end of the very first season.

And while we're at it, I think they should just go ahead and 'bend' canon so that JTK transfers to the Enterprise, early on next season - and he can be Number Two, or Number One-B - all the while couching it as an 'extended learning experience for being a Number One, as well as a Captain later'.  I'd much rather have that than a bunch more AU and/or time travel highjinx just to shoe-horn Wesley's JTK into future episodes.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[mrspidey]

As far as musical episodes go, this was pretty damn good.

Not as good as OMWF because, let's be honest, that one was perfection and just cannot be topped.

But i'd rate Subspace Rhapsody at second place, which is still quite an achievement. The songs weren't quite as catchy, the lyrics not quite as clever and witty and i would have liked more genre variety. Seriously, where was my Rock Ballad?

[norcalgal]

22 hours ago, rtms77 said:

The whole thing with Chapel and Spock is a mess, and does not put a very good light on Chapel. She pretty much wanted the forbidden fruit, pursued it then dump it once she got a bite. It looks even worse when you realize 7 yrs from now she’s going to keep trying to get that back. No wonder Spock is cold to her.

 

18 hours ago, driver18 said:

Speaking of, I'm surprised at the number of comments I've read dragging Chapel for her treatment of Spock in this episode calling her cold and awful to him. I feel in that case that people were either a) ignoring what happened last week, b) not paying attention to what happened this week, and/or c) woobifying Spock.

Chapel and Spock basically broke up last week. So, when Chapel got that news about her fellowship, of course, she was not going to rush to tell her ex about it first of all but rather celebrate with her friends. She would let know Spock later once she got her celebrating done and she was ready to deal with the downer conversation that would result in telling him. She and Spoke broke up; the onus is not on HER to think about how the ex will feel about her life choices and how she chooses to celebrate them. It's about HER feelings, not his.

Spock was in the wrong to come and walk in on her celebration and be like: 'Yo, why didn't you tell me?' He made HER celebration about himself rather than about her, ruining her mood, her celebration. Chapel was not in the wrong. Spock was.

So her song in response wasn't cold or unfeeling with her saying that she was essentially putting her dreams, her future, her career first and she was ready to move on because HE had put her in that situation by confronting her in the middle of her celebration. Furthermore, because of the fact that this subspace frequency was making them share their innermost feels in a way that they normally wouldn't do is why she did so openly and in such a clear, brutally honest way.

 

5 hours ago, ofmd said:

Regarding Spock, maybe the breakup wasn't abvious to him and she could have been clearer.  What I remember is she told Spock he couldn't help her with certain things.

But as to Chapel's motivation, it was clearly given to us in the crossover episode:

Boimler told her "accidentally" that from the view of the future, they were not a notable item. So if she tried to make it work anyway, that might change the whole future and the great things he will accomplish might not be accomplished. A variation of the woman sacrificing herself so as not to hinder The (future) Great Man from Doing Great Things. We're lucky that she didn't fall onto a sword or waste away from tuberculosis/ a broken heart, while singing a very sad aria.

Or maybe she just told herself, it's not gonna work anyway, so let's just rip the band-aid off right now before it hurts even more.

My point, and I do have one, she's not breaking up with him for selfish reasons or because she's a floozy, quite the contrary.

She'll use the scholarship to distance herself and do something she loves, focusing on the joy and sense of freedom it brings her. (TOS spoilers)

  Hide contents

 

Put me in the camp that feels the SNW/Chapel handled the breakup badly. It was ambiguous to me that they broke up BEFORE this episode. Chapel telling Spoke he couldn't help her with her PTSD/facing a Klingon didn't scream "I am breaking up with you". 

I like what @ofmd posted above that Chapel's encounter with Boimler might be what cemented it in Chapel's mind that she and Spock are kaput, but SNW really needed to make that clear instead of having viewers fill in the blanks/leave it up to everyone's interpretation - ESPECIALLY given what @rtms77 posted (which I agree with) that Chapel partially pursued Spock. [Why show up at his quarters in "Charades" if it wasn't to tell him unequivocally she has feelings for him? If you're gonna show up at a man's "house" to let him know he gives you the tinglies down under, then have the guts to privately tell him it's over - don't keep him guessing what's your relationship status.]

[OLynn33]

I bailed. I couldn't. I'm sorry.

[Maverick]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

My impression was that Kirk knew about David, but David didn't know that Kirk was his dad until The Wrath of Khan.

I may check that movie out just to see.

Kirk absolutely knew about David.  He says to Carol "I stayed away like you asked.'".  Carol makes it clear she didn't want David following in his father's footsteps, running around the galaxy and had Kirk agree not to have a relationship with him.  David is aware of Kirk, that he dated his mother and of his space cowboy reputation but has no idea Kirk is his father.  As David holds a phaser on the Away Team, thinking they killed the Regula I crew and tried to steal Genesis, Carol tells him of course Kirk didn't, that he's his father.  

 

[Stardancer Supreme]

I see so many folks hot under the collar about the Kling-Pop number.  Knowing that the Klingons are totally about Klingon opera and their honor, I knew that they must be singing anything but that in order for the General to come in guns ablazing.  "We are dishonored by being forced to sing this human-like drivel and flounce about in undignified ways!"  I loved it. 

[Chit Chat]

30 minutes ago, OLynn33 said:

I bailed. I couldn't. I'm sorry.

I walked out of the room several times.  I wandered back in whenever they finished singing.  The only thing worth seeing was the Klingons dancing at the end. 

Why are the Star Trek shows getting so damn emotional about everything? Ugh.  Sorry, I'm just not that emotional about everything.  I want SciFi, not a soap opera or musical.  YMMV.   And then there was Pike with his weekly cooking segment.  They really didn't know what else to do with him this season, did they!  

[marinw]

So Uhura did the same job for most of her career and is still venerated. I kind of like that.

[paigow]

Pike: Spock! Phasers on grill

Spock: Captain, that order is illogical. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, whiporee said:

If Uhura is the genius she's being presented as, why does she have the same job at least five years later?

She doesn’t. She has the same specialty but right now she’s an ensign who just graduated from the academy. By season 1 of TOS she’ll be a lieutenant. Her being a genius got her a spot doing what she is best at on the flagship. It makes perfect sense that she would stay in communications. 

[Prevailing Wind]

Never mind.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Prevailing Wind

[historylover820]

28 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I see so many folks hot under the collar about the Kling-Pop number.  Knowing that the Klingons are totally about Klingon opera and their honor, I knew that they must be singing anything but that in order for the General to come in guns ablazing.  "We are dishonored by being forced to sing this human-like drivel and flounce about in undignified ways!"  I loved it. 

Exactly! Klingons singing K-Pop is anything but honorable. I mean, I don't like K-Pop. I'm way too old to understand K-Pop. But, this is beyond dishonorable for Klingons. 

Opera would be honorable for a Klingon.

I watched this episode again just a few minutes ago, because I HAD to see this scene again. Like I said last night, I haven't been very happy lately, and I didn't know that I needed Klingons signing and dancing to K-Pop, but I now do know that's what I needed. 

[Jodithgrace]

In my opinion, nothing will ever be as good as the Buffy musical. I still listen to it today. That said, I really enjoyed this. I thought that the songs were enjoyable, though all kind of in the same style, and the voices surprisingly good. I also appreciated the Buffy shout outs, as well as the Hitchhiker’s Guide reference (improbability drive) 

I laughed out loud at the Klingons sounding like a boy band on helium. I agree that if they had sung opera, they wouldn’t have found that demeaning, but k-pop? That’s war worthy. 

[PurpleTentacle]

I am a big fan of musicals, but musical episodes can get really, really bad. Like you know the people behind it just don't have the particular skills you need to write a good musical.

This one was great, actually. If Buffy: Once more with Feeling is S-Tier, this was a solid A. Really great songs in there, solid singing, no super obvious auto-tune. No notes.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, historylover820 said:

Although, I haven't reconciled how JB's Christine Chapel leads into MB's Christine Chapel. I can kind of see how CRG's Uhura becomes NN's Uhura, due to Uhura's fleshed out background, wanting to belong, working on the flagship. 

I don't think there really is much in the way of reconciling SNW and TOS Chapel, because Chapel as a character basically had two traits beyond just mere function of doing or saying whatever needed to be done or said in response to McCoy or M'Benga: she had a fiance in Roger Korby and she had a love jones for Spock and she tried to catch his eye in a fit-for-the-60s way. Whereas SNW Chapel has a more modern mindset, both in terms of her career and her sexuality. Can you imagine TOS's Chapel planning to write a scholarly paper about an encounter with an alien lifeform? Or sassing off to an authority figure about it?

SNW Uhura has a lot more agency than TOS Uhura, again just because of the time. TOS Uhura didn't even have a first name stated on screen. SNW Uhura managed to save the day in this episode and literally be the star of a song. 

[Starchild]

I do appreciate this show's willingness to experiment, but except for Chapel's 60s lounge throwback (catchy!) and the Klingon boy band (hilarious!), I found the songs boring as hell.

And this is coming from the world's only living Cop Rock fan.

[marinw]

11 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Kling-Pop

King-Pop is a thing now ! Wish we got more than thirty seconds.

[tv-talk]

19 hours ago, ofmd said:

My point, and I do have one, she's not breaking up with him for selfish reasons or because she's a floozy, quite the contrary.

I think the blowback is because of the medium ie musical episode. She broke up with him by singing in front of a dozen people ending with a line the equivalent of "I'm out we're done" to his face. That was an absolutely horrible thing to do that she would obviously never have done had it not been for space weirdness. They'd have broke up in private. So that leaves a bad taste but isnt really her fault.

About that floozy thing- she was 1 of 5 chosen out of 10,000 applicants and within no time she is sleeping with the guy who did the choosing. Again, cant say that is her fault per se but it's not the best look. I mean whats-his-name (Roger?) went through all the applications and just happened to pick this hot, young woman who he ends up having a sexual relationship with almost the moment she gets there. Hmmm.

[MissLucas]

Chapel was established in season one as someone who does not have a lot of social graces. I remember her not having the best bedside manner for a nurse either because that's her way of coping with trauma or because she's wired that way - some folks appreciate the no-nonsense approach in health care so that does not have to be a bad thing. There was also a discussion with Ortegas about her reluctance to commit. Add to that she knows she and Spock have no future (thanks Boimler!) her breaking up in the manner of ripping off a band-aid makes perfect sense. No idea how all that ties in with TOS canon, but so far she's acted in character.

[Chicago Redshirt]

23 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I think the blowback is because of the medium ie musical episode. She broke up with him by singing in front of a dozen people ending with a line the equivalent of "I'm out we're done" to his face. That was an absolutely horrible thing to do that she would obviously never have done had it not been for space weirdness. They'd have broke up in private. So that leaves a bad taste but isnt really her fault.

About that floozy thing- she was 1 of 5 chosen out of 10,000 applicants and within no time she is sleeping with the guy who did the choosing. Again, cant say that is her fault per se but it's not the best look. I mean whats-his-name (Roger?) went through all the applications and just happened to pick this hot, young woman who he ends up having a sexual relationship with almost the moment she gets there. Hmmm.

We don't know anything about how soon after Christine goes on the fellowship that she gets engaged or how/why Korby picked her for the fellowship from either this episode or TOS.

I just rewatched "What Are Little Girls Made Of," the episode where Korby is introduced. All we are told about the relationship is that Korby and Christine are engaged, that Korby's last transmission was five years prior to the episode, that Christine had still maintained hope that he was alive all that time, and that Christine was a student of his. 

It could be that Korby had his eye on Christine from when the application came in, because he was hoping to bang her. 

But it also could be that he has no idea what Christine looks like at the time of this episode and that they only start dating a year or more into the fellowship.

[Pothunter]

14 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Why are the Star Trek shows getting so damn emotional about everything? Ugh.  Sorry, I'm just not that emotional about everything.  I want SciFi, not a soap opera or musical.  YMMV.   And then there was Pike with his weekly cooking segment.  They really didn't know what else to do with him this season, did they!  

I liked the episode but, yes, these people are just way too emotional. I gave up on Discovery and Picard because of this and other stupidities.

SNW is more of an ensemble so miles better to my thinking.

[starri]

9 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But it also could be that he has no idea what Christine looks like at the time of this episode and that they only start dating a year or more into the fellowship.

She (or possibly M’Benga) did say that the fellowship is for 3 months.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 minutes ago, starri said:

She (or possibly M’Benga) did say that the fellowship is for 3 months.

True, M'Benga said "What am I going to do without you for three months?"

I should have said that they started dating a year after they met. 

But I would imagine that at some point that Chapel decides to not return to the Enterprise and stays on the fellowship/with Korby.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Chapel was established in season one as someone who does not have a lot of social graces. I remember her not having the best bedside manner for a nurse either because that's her way of coping with trauma or because she's wired that way - some folks appreciate the no-nonsense approach in health care so that does not have to be a bad thing. There was also a discussion with Ortegas about her reluctance to commit. Add to that she knows she and Spock have no future (thanks Boimler!) her breaking up in the manner of ripping off a band-aid makes perfect sense. No idea how all that ties in with TOS canon, but so far she's acted in character.

Yep. I feel like they did a good job of showing why Chapel is acting the way she is. The song she sang is very consistent with her personality. Plus Spock and Uhura were completely to blame for the breakup happening in public. They deliberately provoked the song in that setting.

With regards to the fandom Chapel is in a lose-lose position. She will always be judged against a version of herself based on gender roles from the 60’s and has a romantic relationship with one of the most beloved characters in the entire franchise. A relationship that mostly exists to provoke an emotional response from a character defined by his lack of emotions.

Hurt Spock is going to get the lions share of the sympathy.

[tv-talk]

25 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But I would imagine that at some point that Chapel decides to not return to the Enterprise and stays on the fellowship/with Korby.

So basically she's in a sexual relationship with the guy who picked her out of 10,000 other people very likely within 3 months of meeting him. Yeah that's not untoward at all.

to be clear, maybe they truly loved each other, who knows or even cares really. I'm just saying there is no way that situation is a good look for either them and most especially him.

15 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Why are the Star Trek shows getting so damn emotional about everything? Ugh.  Sorry, I'm just not that emotional about everything.  I want SciFi, not a soap opera or musical.

My guess is because everyone is supposed to be in therapy these days or they arent a good person. Of course I am being facetious but among younger millenlials and GenZ there is an extremely strong trend there. So maybe the producers and writers want to tap into that to keep Trek current.

[Chit Chat]

5 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

So maybe the producers and writers want to tap into that to keep Trek current.

Maybe so.  Crybaby Spock isn't something I want to see again though.  Nurse Chapel was only supposed to be leaving for 3 months.  It's highly unusual to see such a meltdown from Spock over something like that.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

About that floozy thing- she was 1 of 5 chosen out of 10,000 applicants and within no time she is sleeping with the guy who did the choosing. Again, cant say that is her fault per se but it's not the best look. I mean whats-his-name (Roger?) went through all the applications and just happened to pick this hot, young woman who he ends up having a sexual relationship with almost the moment she gets there. Hmmm.

Spock started a sexual relationship with a subordinate immediately after his engagement ended without any real blowback. 

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Spock started a sexual relationship with a subordinate immediately after his engagement ended without any real blowback. 

So you mean when he was single? I dont know how the Federation handles relationships between people of varying ranks though, not sure if that has ever been addressed, but you'd think it was frowned upon if not against the rules.

2 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Crybaby Spock isn't something I want to see again though.

Agree 100% on that, and do suspect that they will use what happened as his impetus to go full Vulcan and be the legendary Spock of TOS that Boimer was familiar with.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I dont know how the Federation handles relationships between people of varying ranks though, not sure if that has ever been addressed, but you'd think it was frowned upon if not against the rules.

TOS!Kirk, McCoy & Scotty all could have been written up by Starfleet HR if such rules existed.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

So you mean when he was single?

Yes. But Chapel’s future actions with Korby will also be when she is single so that doesn’t really impact my point.

Chapel is getting blowback for possibly starting a sexual relationship with her superior weeks to months after ending a relatively short term relationship with Spock. While Spock gets no blowback for starting a sexual relationship with subordinate minutes to hours after ending an engagement. 

58 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I dont know how the Federation handles relationships between people of varying ranks though, not sure if that has ever been addressed, but you'd think it was frowned upon if not against the rules.

I was referring to the audience reaction but this is part of my point. I was not suggesting that what Spock and Chapel did was wrong because there is nothing in the show to suggest it was wrong. But that also says to me that there is nothing untowards with Chapel and Korby. The in-universe gender dynamics are very different. 

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, Dani said:

Yes. But Chapel’s future actions with Kirby will also be when she is single so that doesn’t really impact my point.

Chapel is getting blowback for possibly starting a sexual relationship with her superior weeks to months after ending a relatively short term relationship with Spock. While Spock gets no blowback for starting a sexual relationship with subordinate minutes to hours after ending an engagement. 

I thought she was getting blowback for breaking up with Spock in public via a song? As far as her future actions with Roger, she is his student right? 5 interns chosen out of 10,000 and she and he end up sleeping together pretty quickly. My point was just that that really doesnt look good on any level no matter how it's spun, and most certainly not to the 9,995 people who didnt get the internship. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by tv-talk

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I thought she was getting blowback for breaking up with Spock in public via a song?

To me her being labeled a floozy is about more than her breaking up with him public. I was also more speaking to the larger double standard that happens in the fandom. 

24 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

As far as her future actions with Roger, she is his student right? 5 interns chosen out of 10,000 and she and he end up sleeping together pretty quickly.

It’s a short-term fellowship so I wouldn’t equate to her being a student in that way. We don’t actually know if they end up sleeping together during the fellowship. We only know they will have a serious relationship. This could just been when they meet and they could begin a relationship after the fellowship ends. Even if they do, I don’t see how it would be any worse than most of the sexual relationships  we see in Star Trek. 

24 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

My point was just that that really doesnt look good on any level no matter how it's spun, and most certainly not to the 9,995 people who didnt get the internship. 

I disagree. The only way I could see it being a problem is if he only picked because he wanted to sleep with her but I don’t think there is any reason to suggest that. Everything in the show suggests she is qualified and got it on her merit. But if that was the case it would reflect poorly on him and not make her a floozy. 

[ofmd]

5 hours ago, Dani said:

Spock started a sexual relationship with a subordinate immediately after his engagement ended without any real blowback. 

It's almost like there's a double standard... can't put my finger on it...

(I'd argue that he'd cheated emotionally for a long time before ending the engagement, for no reason except the drama, but I digress.)

PS: Spock is one of my favorite Trek characters, Chapel isn't. Just to be clear. 

PPS: The Korby thing doesn't sit well with me either because of the mentor/ student relationship. (And yes, it would be mostly his responsibility to prevent such a relationship, not hers.) It's the product of what some dude thought appropriate in the 1960's. I wouldn't have minded if they'd changed that part of canon, e.g. have K. be a colleague she meets, but alas. Of course it's also possible they won't fall in love until the professional relationship is over, but where's the melodrama in that?

Edited August 5, 2023 by ofmd

[ofmd]

And I can't help but wonder... If, say, Spock or Kirk had gotten an internship or a similarly enticing opportunity and later ended up engaged to the professor, would we instantly jump to the conclusion that surely they got it because of their good looks, not their accomplishments?

Edited August 5, 2023 by ofmd

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, ofmd said:

would we instantly jump to the conclusion that surely they got it because of their good looks, not their accomplishments?

Who jumped to that conclusion? You can bet that out of all those applicants, far more than the 5 that got the internship were fully qualified and even overly qualified knowing Starfleet. That doesnt change the fact that the optics would be terrible if they started a relationship during the internship.

1 hour ago, ofmd said:

I'd argue that he'd cheated emotionally for a long time before ending the engagement, for no reason except the drama,

I think it was T'Pring who ended the engagement and for understandable reasons.

4 hours ago, Dani said:

To me her being labeled a floozy is about more than her breaking up with him public.

Oh I didnt see the posts saying she was a floozy, yeah I'm not sure why anyone would think that. I just thought it was awful to breakup with Spock like that but as I said before that was due to the space weirdness. It just sucks for Spock and probably will end up being why he rejects his human side and goes full Vulcan that we all know and love.