S02.E07: Those Old Scientists

[starri]

Quote

 

An accident while investigating a time portal sends Ensigns Beckett Mariner and Bradward Boimler through time from the 24th century, and Captain Pike and his crew must get them back where they belong before they can alter the timeline.

 

[starri]

Well, Paramount+ threw me a curveball and dropped it early, I guess for SDCC.

Enjoy, everyone.

[Prevailing Wind]

I'm so tired of time travel.  That's the one thing I agree on with Janeway - it gives me a headache.

[tv-talk]

GenZ schools the Olds, yawn.

[thuganomics85]

Really was a surprise because I just happened to be on my Paramount+ app when I saw this!

I admittedly haven't watch Lower Decks which might hurt my Trekkie cred a bit, but I thought they did a decent job at showing who Boimier and Mariner are like in general.  The former is the overexcited fanboy who knows almost everything about everyone and can also be a bit of a well-meaning screw-up, but generally is able to come through when the time calls for it.  Meanwhile, the latter is more confident and tries to play things off like she is above it, but can also geek out when the time calls for it (especially with Uhura!)  Both Jack Quaid and Tawny Newsome seem well cast for these roles.

The regular crew still got some moments to shine: especially reacting in all of the craziness.  In particular, Anson Mount really nailed down Pike's "You've got be shitting me!" face whenever Boimier said or did something silly.

Not sure if really buy this whole "Chapel is making Spock more human now" bit with him actually laughing and smiling.  If canon holds, something drastic must happen if he goes back to normal, emotionless Spock come TOS time.

Only thing better than Boimier's "Riker!" when he straddled the saddle like he did, is knowing that Jonathan Frakes was directing this.  The Riker Maneuver will never die!

Fun enough crossover, I guess.

[Prevailing Wind]

i rely on closed captioning. I had no idea how much I relied on lip-reading, too. If I didn't have the CC to read, I would never have known WTH the cartoons were saying.

I think the catalyst for Spock returning to normal Spock was fan-boy telling him the universe needs Vulcan Spock.

[PurpleTentacle]

Well I loved this. I was prepared for Boimler and Mariner to be wildly out of character, but I guess they brought on the lower decks writers, because they were pretty much spot on.

The whole thing was very enjoyable through and through. I think this is where SNW is best at, if they don't try to tackle big things and themes, but have small, contaiend stories. Because with a prequel, tackling big things can never work. Because we know how they turn out in the end and most of the time the writers aren't good enough to weave them in seemlessly.

So I guess with the ending this has always happened. Boimler's and Mariner's scheme turned these Orion pirates into Orion scientists, who discovered the portal, in the eyes of history. I love that for Tendi. This story might have even inspired her to become a scientist in the first place.

[PurpleTentacle]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

GenZ schools the Olds, yawn.

That's what you took away from this? Weird. It was pretty clear that both generations learned things from each other in this episode.

Also Boimler and Mariner are more like Gen Omega or something and Tawny Newsome and Jack Quaid are Gen Y (Newsome is almost X, just squeezing in for Y under the wire)

6 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I'm so tired of time travel.  That's the one thing I agree on with Janeway - it gives me a headache.

Normally I'd agree, but this seemed fine. Still two stories in one season might have been a bit much... I could have done without the first one, that moved the eugenics wars by 40 years without any other consequences to the timeline, somehow, because the production was too lazy to set it in the 90s...

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not sure if really buy this whole "Chapel is making Spock more human now" bit with him actually laughing and smiling.  If canon holds, something drastic must happen if he goes back to normal, emotionless Spock come TOS time.

I assume it's going to be Pike's accident.

1 hour ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I think the catalyst for Spock returning to normal Spock was fan-boy telling him the universe needs Vulcan Spock.

Spock said in this episode that he couldn't and wouldn't change course because of the future knowledge Boimler gave him, because that would change the future and maybe lead to an outcome where all the great things that future Spock does would never come to pass. It was only logical to stay the course.

The SNW writers are obsessed with The Cage. They probably watched it 200 times to prepare (but only glanced at the rest of TOS once), so this is their explaination of why Spock is smiling in it:

Edited July 23, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Normally I'd agree, but this seemed fine. Still two stories in one season might have been a bit much... I could have done without the first one, that moved the eugenics wars by 40 years without any other consequences to the timeline, somehow, because the production was too lazy to set it in the 90s...

They didn't set it in the 90s because subsequent series have done enough time travel stories to the 90s (Voyager) and present day (DS9, Picard) to make that irreconcilable with what we saw in those shows.  I think they'd love to make fun of the 90s if given the chance.

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I assume it's going to be Pike's accident.

Why?  There's nothing logical about an accident Spock wasn't involved with making him decide that embracing his human side sucks unless he's so weak that seeing a close friend suffer spurs him to shut off all emotions (if that were the case then he would have done it after Burnham left).   Along those lines, it would be ridiculous if Chapel dumping Spock is what causes it.

[PurpleTentacle]

22 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

They didn't set it in the 90s because subsequent series have done enough time travel stories to the 90s (Voyager) and present day (DS9, Picard) to make that irreconcilable with what we saw in those shows.  I think they'd love to make fun of the 90s if given the chance.

I'm pretty sure Voyager and DS9 never moved the eugenic wars, but had their time travel set specifically around it.

DS9's past tense was set in 2024, long after the eugenic wars, two years before world war three. If you mean that episode. I don't remember anything else set in that time period of the top of my head.

Can you give me examples where DS9 and Voyager contradicted previously established canon regarding the eugenics wars?

Picard I'd like to forget. It is a stupid show written by morons. But you could still square that time travel as taking place after the eugenics wars. There they never established that the eugenics wars hadn't happened and the world is pretty sufficiently fucked up. In fact at the end of season two Soong brings up an old file on his computer that suggest they already happened.

31 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Why?  There's nothing logical about an accident Spock wasn't involved with making him decide that embracing his human side sucks unless he's so weak that seeing a close friend suffer spurs him to shut off all emotions (if that were the case then he would have done it after Burnham left).   Along those lines, it would be ridiculous if Chapel dumping Spock is what causes it.

Because TV. It has to be a sufficiantly significant moment. We know nobody dies, except maybe Una (but that seems unlikely after this episode, with nobody blurting it out), so that is the only significant moment to mine that is left.

[Ceindreadh]

They animated the opening credits!!! 

I actually had to rewind the credits because I didn't notice it at first!

This was just such a fun episode.  Loved it when Boimler was listing out the things Pike was known for and Pike's expression when he mentioned the hair.

I didn't even know we were getting it early until I saw it mentioned on Twitter about 1am my time, and I was sorely tempted to watch it there and then, but I knew that Pike would insist that my sleep was important and I think I needed to be fully awake to appreciate it all. 

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That's what you took away from this? Weird. It was pretty clear that both generations learned things from each other in this episode.

Mariner is a character uniquely not suited to live action Trek and I could do without. After watching numerous Lower Decks episodes and generally enjoying them, I expected she wouldnt crossover well and for me she didnt. The episode was fine and definitely had its moments, but I wasnt a fan of subsuming SNW for the sake of a silly cartoon which is what Lower Decks boils down to. And yes the dynamic of the story was in part that your elders werent as great as you thought and newer knowledge always rules the day.

[PurpleTentacle]

4 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Mariner is a character uniquely not suited to live action Trek and I could do without. After watching numerous Lower Decks episodes and generally enjoying them, I expected she wouldnt crossover well and for me she didnt. The episode was fine and definitely had its moments, but I wasnt a fan of subsuming SNW for the sake of a silly cartoon which is what Lower Decks boils down to.

That is a matter of taste and valid, but very different from your original criticism.

I maybe would have had a problem with it if SNW was more serious Scifi, even on the level of the TNG era, but it's not and instead pretty silly in its own right.

4 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

And yes the dynamic of the story was in part that your elders werent as great as you thought and newer knowledge always rules the day.

That seems like a very weird take. Boimler and Mariner were fangirling throughout the whole episode. I think the takeaway for them was that their elders were very much as great as they thought.

That knowledge from the future is superiour to knowledge from the past is not some political take. It's just how time and progress work. Unless knowledge is lost, future knowledge will always trump past knowledge, because there is just more of it and it gives a more complete picture.

I'm pretty sure we know more about the universe now than people knew a 100 years ago. Doesn't make them stupid or bad. Just means they didn't know as much.

[tv-talk]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Unless knowledge is lost, future knowledge will always trump past knowledge, because there is just more of it and it gives a more complete picture.

That's not how knowledge works at all and is the type of hubris I'm talking about actually. For instance, in 1988 you'd have been stating up and down that fats are bad for your health and everyone should eat margarine and "fat free" processed foods. Guess what? All of that was dead wrong. Yet people in 1988 proudly boasted about all the advancements in nutrition they'd made and how much healthier they were making food by processing it. That's what the science said. And it was wrong and in fact knowledge from decades and centuries earlier about nutrition was correct. Knowledge isnt entirely linear.

And yes, I find Mariner annoying and not suited for live action Trek. Or can you tell me another character that cavorts around shitting on every order and situation they find themselves in while completely ignoring officers, dignitaries etc etc? Mariner is very much a cartoon character imo.

38 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

Loved it when Boimler was listing out the things Pike was known for and Pike's expression when he mentioned the hair.

If I had to describe this season so far I'd say it's left me wanting more Pike! He's been great in every episode and I hope the remaining ones refocus on him.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I liked how the opening credits and the exterior shots of the Enterprise during the live action portion of the episode were all animated.

Lots of subtle and not so subtle references to other series.

Setlik 2 -- Setlik 3 is where Miles O'Brien fought the Cardassians.

Archer, Hoshi Sato, and Travis Mayweather got name drops -- as did the NX-01.

Riker and Worf both got mentions.

Even the the Bell Riots.  And dom-jot.

[tv-talk]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The SNW writers are obsessed with The Cage. They probably watched it 200 times to prepare (but only glanced at the rest of TOS once), so this is their explaination of why Spock is smiling in it:

I'm laughing just thinking about Spock "laughing" here in the forced, unnatural way that Peck did on the episode, actually adds something to the original!

[greekmom]

I got to say it was cute.

Disappointed that Una wasn't some relative of Boimler's.

I had forgotten that Pike knows what happens to him - sort of.

Nurse Chapel - the lady doth protest too much. She wants more than friends with benefits with Spock.

The end where the SNW crew as a cartoon was cute.

Not going to watch next week's episode.

 

[tv-talk]

19 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Not going to watch next week's episode.

Why is that? I just saw the preview for the musical episode....uh yeah. Gotta say I was hoping for more of a season long arc with regards to the Gorn. Oh well.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Not going to watch next week's episode.

Next week’s is NOT the musical. That’s S2E9 on Aug 3, from what I understand.

42 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Why is that? I just saw the preview for the musical episode....uh yeah. Gotta say I was hoping for more of a season long arc with regards to the Gorn. Oh well.

I’ll take cartoon crossovers and a musical episodes over some tiresome arc with the xenomorphs…I mean Gorn…any day and twice on Sundays.

[tv-talk]

27 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I’ll take cartoon crossovers and a musical episodes over some tiresome arc with the xenomorphs…I mean Gorn…any day and twice on Sundays.

Yeah gimmicky one offs beat an actual story anyday.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah gimmicky one offs beat an actual story anyday.

Star Trek doing Aliens is the definition of a gimmicky one-off.

[tv-talk]

17 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Star Trek doing Aliens is the definition of a gimmicky one-off.

This season is not at all about moving Pike's story forward. It's fine if people like throw away episodes that have nothing to do with anything but the show definitely presented itself as otherwise. Right down to Ep1 of this season where Spock got in zero trouble for stealing a starship because supposedly the Federation was about to be at war with the Gorn. IDK tho, maybe they'll have some awesome song and dance routines that flesh that out.

 

[Guest]

I’m a Lower Decks fan so I loved this. It was fun.

I liked that they used it as an opportunity to acknowledge that Spock is being written out of character with canon. I’m still on the fence about Spock’s overall storyline but I don’t have an issue with him being written differently here.

I am also somewhat disappointed that this episode didn’t advance the story at all. This season still feels so disjointed as a whole. 

7 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Why?  There's nothing logical about an accident Spock wasn't involved with making him decide that embracing his human side sucks unless he's so weak that seeing a close friend suffer spurs him to shut off all emotions (if that were the case then he would have done it after Burnham left).   Along those lines, it would be ridiculous if Chapel dumping Spock is what causes it.

I wouldn’t say that Spock choosing to embrace his Vulcan half fully in response to overwhelming emotion would necessarily mean he is weak.

Having said that, I agree that it doesn’t work for Pike’s accident to be the catalyst for the change. That would be that the change happens during season 1 of TOS. 

 

6 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Mariner is a character uniquely not suited to live action Trek and I could do without.

I enjoyed seeing Tawny Newsome playing her in live action but I agree. 

[EllisCarver]

6 hours ago, tv-talk said:

 

And yes, I find Mariner annoying and not suited for live action Trek. Or can you tell me another character that cavorts around shitting on every order and situation they find themselves in while completely ignoring officers, dignitaries etc etc? Mariner is very much a cartoon character imo.

 

She's not suited for live action Trek because a "too cool for school" character would never work on the bridge. Which is what makes her perfect for the world of Lower Decks where that persona is perfectly acceptable.

[readster]

As much as I love the episode, what really took me back with both Newsman and Quad being their live action selves. I never really would have noticed how much shorter some of the other actors are. Newsman is just under 5'10 and Quad is 6'. When they were standing to the other actors I was like: "Wow, they look so short."

[paigow]

The famous Buffy musical episode was premised on demonic possession.... So Sargon takes control of Pike???

[MrWhyt]

11 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

They animated the opening credits!!! 

and they added the space bug sucking on the warp nacelle!

Loved this. 10/10 no complaints.

[marinw]

Attention Canadians: This is streaming on Bell

[marinw]

Loved the end with the SNW crew getting animated.

So do they lock up all the time travelers on an off the grid planet somewhere? Neera would like a word.

Liked Pike’s comment about trying to prevent a toddler from knocking over the furniture. They should have put those two in the SNW uniforms as the LD uniforms could cause some butterflies.

Edited July 24, 2023 by marinw

[historylover820]

Does anyone know why this episode dropped very early?

Confession time: I've never seen an episode of Lower Decks. I've heard about it, but I've never seen it. But I don't think not seeing it proved to be a detriment. Because I'm going "WTH?" along with the Enterprise crew. They don't know these two crew members, and neither do I. I laughed at Pike being known for his hair. I also kind of laughed at Boimler being very confused at this version of Spock, because he was giving voice to some of our complaints. 

I thought it was fun. Loved the animated credits. The Enterprise crew being animated was also fun and pretty clever. 

I laughed at the Riker maneuver. Apparently the actor threw it in and it made Jonathan Frakes laugh. So, they kept it in.

I do know, because I recognize his voice, Ransom (is that his name? The one who said Una was the hottest babe in Starfleet), is voiced by Jerry O'Connell, who is the husband of Rebecca Romijn.

I see that a musical episode is coming up. Count me in as someone who would much prefer watching this episode or a musical more than any "Let's bring in the Gorn as our mortal enemies!" episode, and way over time travel shenanigans with La'an and Kirk. Bring on the musical! (And I do see it's in two weeks)

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, historylover820 said:

Does anyone know why this episode dropped very early?

Comic-Con. They released it after premiering it at the Star Trek panel. Probably to avoid leaks. 

[tv-talk]

42 minutes ago, historylover820 said:

I see that a musical episode is coming up. Count me in as someone who would much prefer watching this episode or a musical more than any "Let's bring in the Gorn as our mortal enemies!" episode, and way over time travel shenanigans with La'an and Kirk.

The La'an/altKirk episode goes down as possibly worst Trek ever, by definition musical will be better than that. I just wish they had advanced Pike's situation further, feels like the character got left behind this season.

[SnarkShark]

Is it weird that simultaneously this episode felt like a really dumb thing to exist, but also enjoyable?

[QuantumMechanic]

8 hours ago, EllisCarver said:

She's not suited for live action Trek because a "too cool for school" character would never work on the bridge. Which is what makes her perfect for the world of Lower Decks where that persona is perfectly acceptable.

I don’t think it’s live action vs cartoon. I think it’s “lower decks mostly not too important people” vs “bridge crew who are the people running the ship”.

So I think she’d be fine in a live-action Lower Decks. But not in a live-action (or animated) SNW.

Edited July 24, 2023 by QuantumMechanic

[Colorado David]

ok totally silly episode with the crossover, but i enjoyed it immensely. as long as its considered a one-off and not canon, i'm fine with these fun episodes occasionally.

[txhorns79]

9 hours ago, EllisCarver said:

She's not suited for live action Trek because a "too cool for school" character would never work on the bridge. Which is what makes her perfect for the world of Lower Decks where that persona is perfectly acceptable.

Yes.  I was a little surprised no one called her out for how she behaved, but it was just a generally fun episode, so no big deal. 

[paigow]

48 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

ok totally silly episode with the crossover, but i enjoyed it immensely. as long as its considered a one-off and not canon, i'm fine with these fun episodes occasionally.

Because these writers are hacks... next season, human Pike will be dropped into a Toon-Town Starfleet - so Anson Mount can demonstrate his Bob Hoskins impression...

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Because these writers are hacks... next season, human Pike will be dropped into a Toon-Town Starfleet - so Anson Mount can demonstrate his Bob Hoskins impression...

Will his hair be even higher?

[marinw]

15 hours ago, EllisCarver said:

She's not suited for live action Trek because a "too cool for school" character would never work on the bridge. Which is what makes her perfect for the world of Lower Decks where that persona is perfectly acceptable.

Tawny Newsome was more subdued (but still funny) in "Space Force". I enjoyed Live-Action Mariner, but one episode of that is enough. 

Interesting how Pike opened up to Boemler. Sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger, and part of Pike must still be desperate for a different future.

It's so hard to make Orion makeup not look cheesy. The Orion Scientists and the Klingon Scientists should get together to commensurate on how nobody respects them. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by marinw

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, tv-talk said:

The La'an/altKirk episode goes down as possibly worst Trek ever, by definition musical will be better than that. I just wish they had advanced Pike's situation further, feels like the character got left behind this season.

I think we needed to see Kirk react to an unfamiliar environment and to form some connections with the Enterprise crew, and we got to see him do something heroic, so we know he is a hero.

Pike decided to accept what people have to give him and enjoy life as it presents itself, which is a pretty big furthering of his situation. I think they covered most of Pike's angst, since he now knows he cannot escape his fate without compromising his principles and honor. If the show gets to the time of the accident I'm sure there will be more shows centered on Pike, but the show isn't the Pike Show. It is, like TNG formula, daddy knows best in space type of thing.

Jack Quaid is so perfectly a mash up of his parents. I really like him, though, and his tendency to blurt out things was helpful in moving things along. I enjoyed the animated parts of SNW. I thought he came across as Boimer more than Tawney Newsome embodied Mariner, but that may be because Mariner is less believeable.

I like that the two of them left the Enterprise changed. Uhura will take some down time, Chapel and Spock will reconsider their relationship. Pike will attend his birthday party. Tendi is vindicated and the Enterprise crew has more respect for Orions.

Loved that Boimer's nerdity knew there was a piece of the old enterprise in the new ships.

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I think we needed to see Kirk react to an unfamiliar environment and to form some connections with the Enterprise crew, and we got to see him do something heroic, so we know he is a hero.

That wasnt Kirk though, it was altKirk. For me, having a different version of Kirk take up an entire terrible episode when you hadnt fleshed out the real Kirk yet was an odd choice. I'd have much preferred 2 eps with actual Kirk than how they did it. 

It's not the Pike show but he's clearly taken a huge backseat this season as opposed to last, I dont think it's that much to have expected more continuity with the previous season and suspect if he hadnt just had a baby it may have been written more like that.

8 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I thought he came across as Boimer more than Tawney Newsome embodied Mariner, but that may be because Mariner is less believeable.

Yeah Boimer was great whereas Mariner is just not believable in the framework of the show. 

[marinw]

29 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah Boimer was great whereas Mariner is just not believable in the framework of the show. 

On LD I get this tiny little sense of wistful sadness from Boimler which really came across here. His enthusiasm is endless even though reality continues to disappoint.

[Joimiaroxeu]

I decidedly don't watch Lower Decks so the cartoon opening immediately put me off.

Ensign Boimler's feet looked huge when he was lying down on the examination table. Was that a cartoon thing?

Pike has a bit of pride about his high hair it seems. I just love how game Anson Mount is to have Pike look silly despite being a Starship captain.

The Orion ship captain had some great swagger. He had really mastered the "unbothered" attitude.

Spock making jokes with that cheesy grin was hilarious.

In Lower Decks world TOS means Those Old Scientists. Of course. The actual meaning would be too meta. 🙄

Not my favorite episode but the amount of Pike was more than adequate.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:45 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm pretty sure Voyager and DS9 never moved the eugenic wars, but had their time travel set specifically around it.

DS9's past tense was set in 2024, long after the eugenic wars, two years before world war three. If you mean that episode. I don't remember anything else set in that time period of the top of my head.

Can you give me examples where DS9 and Voyager contradicted previously established canon regarding the eugenics wars?

Voyager's "Future's End" is set in a 1996 that was affected by the crash of a timeship in the 1960s. A hippie managed to reverse-engineer a bunch of stuff from the timeship and make a big business for himself. That 1996 was basically the same as our 1996, except the future tech company dominated things. Now, one could theorize that the Eugenics Wars still had happened in that setting and somehow this very devastating war didn't really affect anything in the episode, or that they were going to happen even though the decade was half over. Or one could theorize that the specific crash of the timeship altered the timeline enough that in what we saw, the Eugenics Wars didn't happen, or happened differently, and that once time was restored, the Eugenics Wars happened in the 1990s exactly as Space Seed said they would be. 

But all that seems like a lot of work and not very convincing IMO. YMMV.

The Bell Riots and the world we see in DS9's version of Past Tense does not inherently contradict the notion of a Eugenics War wherein supermen vied for supremacy and Khan controlled basically most of Asia before being ousted. But it doesn't naturally flow IMO either.

On 7/23/2023 at 6:52 AM, tv-talk said:

Mariner is a character uniquely not suited to live action Trek and I could do without. After watching numerous Lower Decks episodes and generally enjoying them, I expected she wouldnt crossover well and for me she didnt. The episode was fine and definitely had its moments, but I wasnt a fan of subsuming SNW for the sake of a silly cartoon which is what Lower Decks boils down to. And yes the dynamic of the story was in part that your elders werent as great as you thought and newer knowledge always rules the day.

What about Mariner makes her "uniquely not suited to live action Trek"?

I think the dynamic of the story was that the elders WERE as great as you thought, even better. 

Pike was praised along multiple dimensions as being a great explorer and diplomat, someone Boimler dressed up for as Halloween. At no point did either Boimler or Mariner express any disappointment in what actual Pike was like. 

Number One was revealed to be Boimler's inspiration for joining Starfleet in the first place, and he frigging quoted her catchphrase. Despite running a little scared of her and the semi-comic misunderstanding that he treated her like a pinup girl, Boimler was super-respectful towards her and Mariner was no less.

Spock was (correctly) regarded as integral to the future's success. In addition, Mariner fangirls over how much hotter he is as young Spock. The difference was that this Spock is apparently trying out various human approaches and so he is not the same stoic Vulcan that Boimler and Mariner are used to.

Uhura is literally worshipped as a badass by Mariner. She is slightly different from what Mariner expected, as historical Uhura was more fun and able to balance work and life in a way that Cadet Uhura had not even seemingly attempted. But that is the one plausible example of the elders not being as great.

There's not much mention of most of the rest of the cast that could possibly be interpreted as Boimler and Mariner not thinking that they are great. Boimler briefly fanboys about being with M'Benga as well as Pike, Ortegas gets lifted up as a "war hero"...and nothing really gets said about having been with La'an.

It would have been better if Pike, Number One or Spock had been the one to know that there was a piece of the NX-01 incorporated into the NCC-1701 and therefore they didn't have to raid the fleet museum for whatever-metal. But I wouldn't say the message was "newer knowledge" always rules the day. People from the future are generally going to have an advantage over people from the past in terms of scientific knowledge or the knowledge that history brings, and that was what was on display here. Boimler was able to use future cheats (the details of which don't matter) to be able to find the Orion ship, for example. It was Pike IIRC who came up with the "You get the credit for the scientific discovery of the time portal if we get the fancy wheat back."

[norcalgal]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The Orion ship captain had some great swagger.

I couldn't concentrate on him as just his Orion character because I kept seeing him as his character on Bitten - werewolf Jeremy Danvers.

[starri]

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It would have been better if Pike, Number One or Spock had been the one to know that there was a piece of the NX-01 incorporated into the NCC-1701 and therefore they didn't have to raid the fleet museum for whatever-metal.

Although we know Admiral April was her first captain, so unless one of them (and Spock would have likely still been at the Academy when Enterprise first launched) was part of his crew, they wouldn't necessarily have known either.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, starri said:

Although we know Admiral April was her first captain, so unless one of them (and Spock would have likely still been at the Academy when Enterprise first launched) was part of his crew, they wouldn't necessarily have known either.

They wouldn't necessarily have known intuitively that a) the NX-01 had whatever-metal as part of the hull or b) exactly where the part from the NX-01 was in the NCC-1701, but once the LD members told them the first two things, I would have liked it better that they came up with the solution of figuring out where in the NCC-1701 to find the metal.

If it's common enough knowledge that Starfleet throws a bit of the past ships in that people learn at the fleet museum, it's knowledge that someone amongst our heroes likely should have had. It doesn't bother me tremendously, except that it opens things up to the accusation (unfounded though I think it generally is) that the SNW crew didn't really do much/enough to solve the issue of the week.

[QuantumMechanic]

49 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What about Mariner makes her "uniquely not suited to live action Trek"?

Agreed.  Her not fitting into SNW isn't animated vs. live-action.  It's "goofy show featuring unimportant characters" vs. "more serious show featuring important people who run the ship".

I think she (and Boimler and the rest of them) would do fine in a live-action Lower Decks. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by QuantumMechanic

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, tv-talk said:

The La'an/altKirk episode goes down as possibly worst Trek ever, by definition musical will be better than that. I just wish they had advanced Pike's situation further, feels like the character got left behind this season.

Taking it to compare/contrast thread.

[Jodithgrace]

While this episode did absolutely nothing to compel me to watch Lower Decks, I did enjoy it. I liked all the hints of the “future” careers of our present cast of characters. 
Grinning Spock was creepy. I do admire how Ethan Peck contrasted Spock’s present experimental emotions with his actual human emotions in the episode where he lost his Vulcan DNA. I wonder what does change him into the Spock we know in TOS. 
I remember when Data got his emotion chip in TNG. At first he was OTT until he learned to control himself. Maybe Spock will just gradually, over time, redevelop his Spockness, as we know it, and not all of a sudden because of one traumatic event.