Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Absolom]

I would venture to bet that possibly one out of ten of my neighbors have heard the term and we're not all dunderheads.

[isalicat]

Actually this discussion is one I've been having recently about AOC and Bernie's anti "oligarch" tour. Not to get into politics (AT ALL!) but the very use of that term seems problematic to me as lots of American millionaires and billionaires are not oligarchs and not all rich people are on board with the current administration's policies. If you want to get regular people on board with your proposals, its best to keep it simple and not alienate folk with fancy/not-especially-accurate language, in my opinion.

[StatisticalOutlier]

7 minutes ago, isalicat said:

Not to get into politics (AT ALL!) but the very use of that term seems problematic to me as lots of American millionaires and billionaires are not oligarchs and not all rich people are on board with the current administration's policies.

Seems to me that discussing an administration's policies is political.  But not only had I never heard the term "stochastic terrorism," I didn't even know what "stochastic" meant, so I'm clearly out of my depth.

[Absolom]

7 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Seems to me that discussing an administration's policies is political.  But not only had I never heard the term "stochastic terrorism," I didn't even know what "stochastic" meant, so I'm clearly out of my depth.

In a bit of irony the only place I had run into using the term stochastic was in a statistics class and further in stochastic modeling.

Edited April 2 by Absolom

[shapeshifter]

30 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

not only had I never heard the term "stochastic terrorism," I didn't even know what "stochastic" meant, so I'm clearly out of my depth.

I am humbled about once a month when reading The NY Times and I have to pause to google a definition.
(I have access more-or-less in lieu of a gold watch for retirement.)

[Ancaster]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I am humbled about once a month when reading The NY Times and I have to pause to google a definition.
(I have access more-or-less in lieu of a gold watch for retirement.)

Please don't feel "humbled".  At least half the time it's just pretension.

I'm old school and have a real life dictionary besides me that I refer to frequently.  I know my mother (an English teacher for 35+ years) would be proud.

Edited April 2 by Ancaster

[SoMuchTV]

25 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I am humbled about once a month when reading The NY Times and I have to pause to google a definition.

 

12 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Please don't feel "humbled".  At least half the time it's just pretention.

In my mind, feeling “humbled” is not a negative thing at all. More like an acknowledgement that there’s still more to be learned. 

[Mondrianyone]

1 minute ago, Ancaster said:

At least half the time it's just pretension.

I'm always amazed by what I read on this thread. When people out in the world get things wrong, they're stupid. When they get things right, they're pretentious. You really can't win.

I, too, have a dictionary always open--on my screen, partly because my work as the professional grammar police requires it and partly because I just like to know things. It doesn't stop me from being wrong, but it does remind me to try to give people grace when they haven't been exposed to certain aspects of language, because I've been exposed to massive amounts and I still screw up. But I agree that the term "stochastic terrorism" has been abroad in the culture for years now, as lone-wolf school shooters and real and pretend assassins have made their presence increasingly known. Which doesn't mean anyone should be ashamed of not having heard the word, but where's the benefit of pretending that it isn't familiar to others who are just everyday people paying attention to the evening news and not pointy-headed intellectuals?

[StatisticalOutlier]

I have a physical dictionary, and in it is a hand-written list of "New Yorker words" that I had to look up repeatedly because they kept using them and I could never remember the definition but I could remember that the word and its definition were on my cheat sheet. 

I haven't consulted the list in years, but just found it.  Turns out it's two sheets, with a total of 61 words on it.  I would say that if I had to define each one, with no context or anything to help, I would get well less than ten of them.

If I read the word in context, I would understand maybe 25% of them. 

The others just will. not. stick.

What's funny in the list is that even though I'm a vocabulary dummy, some things from my education apparently stuck, because in the definitions, there's a Δ substituting for the word "change" and a ∴ for "therefore":   

tergiversation/tergiversate:  to use evasions or ambiguities, to Δ sides

and

syllogism:  deductive reasoning, general -> specific.  Men are foolish. John is a man.  ∴ John is foolish 

 

[Quof]

Elton John and Brandi Carlile are promoting a new album and their performance of the lead single shows up on all of my feeds. They sing "what are the angels gonna do with you and I?" 

I weep every time I hear it.  

[fastiller]

@StatisticalOutlier - syllogism is one of my favourite words.  I'm not entirely sure why. 

[shapeshifter]

23 hours ago, Ancaster said:

At least half the time it's just pretension.

Confession: When I'm reading a NYT piece with a word I have to look up, I can't help wondering if the word was selected to demonstrate the writer's superior knowledge of the topic — which can be pretension.
However: After I've looked up the word, and it turns out it is a very specific, descriptive term, I do feel a tiny bit sheepish.

So, when I say I'm "humbled" by not knowing a word, at least some of that humility comes from my initially judgemental attitude towards the writer seemingly flaunting a superior vocabulary.

[annzeepark914]

On 4/3/2025 at 3:35 AM, Quof said:

Elton John and Brandi Carlile are promoting a new album and their performance of the lead single shows up on all of my feeds. They sing "what are the angels gonna do with you and I?" 

I weep every time I hear it.  

Hope I don't hear this song as my teeth will start grinding 😖. Why do people have such a problem with the pronoun, "me"? I hope Elton & Brandi get inundated with grammar lessons.

[fastiller]

On 4/3/2025 at 3:35 AM, Quof said:

Elton John and Brandi Carlile are promoting a new album and their performance of the lead single shows up on all of my feeds. They sing "what are the angels gonna do with you and I?" 

I weep every time I hear it.  

 

54 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Hope I don't hear this song as my teeth will start grinding 😖. Why do people have such a problem with the pronoun, "me"? I hope Elton & Brandi get inundated with grammar lessons.

 

I'm ok with songs/poems using the incorrect "and I" IF IT FITS A RHYMING / CADENCE / ASSONANCE SCHEME.  If not, it's like nails on a chalkboard.

[Quof]

"I" and "me" have the same number of syllables, and are just as easy to rhyme. There is never a need to use the wrong one. 

[Browncoat]

The lyrics of "Touch Me" by The Doors bugs me every time, but "I" is needed for the rhyme with sky:

"I'm gonna love you till the stars fall from the sky for you and I"

[Ancaster]

6 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Why do people have such a problem with the pronoun, "me"? I hope Elton & Brandi get inundated with grammar lessons.

Since this is a thread about grammar, perhaps we could also address misused commas.  Just me?  😉

Edited April 4 by Ancaster

[fastiller]

[fairffaxx]

Today, someone speaking on my car radio said that a local politician had suggested that the city "unpause" some course of action.  The substance of the story was immediately lost to me, since It's hard enough to follow the news as reported on a car radio while paying attention to driving & listening through traffic noise, without being shocked by mangled grammar.  

[Yeah No]

This really pertains to spelling and pronunciation, but I was watching a repeat episode of "Finding Your Roots" when the guest mispronounced the word "cavalry" as "calvary" (which is the place where Jesus died). She was talking about her ancestor who fought with the cavalry in the Civil War. To make matters worse, the closed captioning misspelled it as "calvary" too. Ugh. This is not the first time I've seen this mistake. It appears to be a common one considering all the sites explaining the difference.

Edited April 8 by Yeah No
Where did that extra " come from?

[Crashcourse]

I'm sick of hearing "merch" for merchandize.

[Ancaster]

". . . even with a life jacket on and laying on a surfboard."

The misuse of "lay", "laying" etc drives me mad frequently, but this at least made me laugh.

[isalicat]

On 4/7/2025 at 7:47 PM, Yeah No said:

This really pertains to spelling and pronunciation, but I was watching a repeat episode of "Finding Your Roots" when the guest mispronounced the word "cavalry" as "calvary" (which is the place where Jesus died). She was talking about her ancestor who fought with the cavalry in the Civil War. To make matters worse, the closed captioning misspelled it as "calvary" too. Ugh. This is not the first time I've seen this mistake. It appears to be a common one considering all the sites explaining the difference.

My local newspaper (when it was still local; sadly no more...) had a front page article about a Civil War era cannon, which of course they spelled as "canon". As both a pedantic speller and a choral singer, this drove me completely crazy. 🙀

[Salacious Kitty]

Are any Canadians out there familiar with "tabarnac?" I couldn't even understand its meaning they way it was spoken. My friend thinks it's a stand-in for "FFS," but I am not so sure. 

[Quof]

It means "church", like "God dammit" but worse; it's a huge swear word in Catholic Quebec.  But you can say "fuck" all you want there. 

[SVNBob]

10 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Are any Canadians out there familiar with "tabarnac?"

 

10 hours ago, Quof said:

It means "church",

Looks like a shortened and corrupted version of "tabernacle", which makes sense.

[SoMuchTV]

I've been seeing this a few places recently:

"Vaccines causes adults"

While I agree with the sentiment, shouldn't it be "Vaccines cause adults"?  Is there some way I'm not parsing it that would make it make grammatical sense?

[shapeshifter]

13 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I've been seeing this a few places recently:

"Vaccines causes adults"

While I agree with the sentiment, shouldn't it be "Vaccines cause adults"?  Is there some way I'm not parsing it that would make it make grammatical sense?

What? Lately I cannot tell when I'm just tired, old, or maybe the only literate person in the room, but I have no idea what that means.

[ebk57]

9 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

What? Lately I cannot tell when I'm just tired, old, or maybe the only literate person in the room, but I have no idea what that means.

My reading of that is if you have vaccines as a child, you will grow up to be an adult. If you don't, you won't make it out of childhood. 

 

I agree with "cause" instead of "causes".

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

What? Lately I cannot tell when I'm just tired, old, or maybe the only literate person in the room, but I have no idea what that means.

 

1 hour ago, ebk57 said:

My reading of that is if you have vaccines as a child, you will grow up to be an adult. If you don't, you won't make it out of childhood. 

 

I agree with "cause" instead of "causes".

Right. Basically a comeback to “vaccines cause autism.”  Which, by the way, I’ve never heard with “causes.”

[Salacious Kitty]

14 hours ago, SVNBob said:

 

Looks like a shortened and corrupted version of "tabernacle", which makes sense.

But it's not. It's French Canadian slang. 😀

[Absolom]

According to AI and the internet and my previous experience researching, it is indeed based on the French tabernacle.

Quote

 It's a variant of the French word "tabernacle," which refers to the holy place where the Eucharist is kept in Catholicism. In Quebec French, "tabarnak" is considered a strong swear word, often used with other expletives like "calice" (chalice) or "ciboire" (ciborium). 

It's the profane use of words referring to sacred items.

[Salacious Kitty]

The way I heard it spoken was alone, as an exclamation. 

[Zella]

4 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The way I heard it spoken was alone, as an exclamation. 

I think that's a feature of a lot of other languages, even if it seems unusual in English. I was really into Danish TV several years ago and distinctly remember "Satan!" being used that way. There is literally a scene of a cop pursuing a suspect who gets away and the cop shouts an anguished "Satan!" in response. It was often translated as "Fuck!" like it was in that scene, but it was a throwback to when blasphemy and religious language/beliefs were taken very seriously. So, at one time, saying Satan was shocking profanity. It has continued long after most Danes stopped caring about the religious implications. 

I suspect Tabernac has a similar trajectory. 

Now I'm watching an Italian show set in Sicily, and minchia, which is literally slang for penis, is used the same way. I see it translated as everything from damn to hell to fuck in English, but it's literally just some mafioso shouting "Penis!" as an exclamation when his drug deal doesn't go his way. LOL 

Edited April 12 by Zella

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The way I heard it spoken was alone, as an exclamation. 

Exactly.  The above explanation is the derivation.  It's like yelling any common US profanity.

[SoMuchTV]

On 4/11/2025 at 2:06 PM, SoMuchTV said:

I've been seeing this a few places recently:

"Vaccines causes adults"

While I agree with the sentiment, shouldn't it be "Vaccines cause adults"?  Is there some way I'm not parsing it that would make it make grammatical sense?

Feeling a little better now. I saw this on a different forum, and while they didn’t include a link, I’m pretty sure it’s for real:

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

this…:

I know it's supposed to be making fun of "Vaccines Cause XXX," but the syntax is just confusing to me. 
I'd prefer something like: Vaccines Generate Adults
Not perfect, but better?

[Milburn Stone]

It works for me only because it echoes the original syntax. By echoing that syntax, it sets you up to expect the original third word. Then it pulls the rug out from under you by supplying a different third word. Which makes you laugh.

(At least, it did me.)

[Ancaster]

On 4/13/2025 at 5:19 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Feeling a little better now. I saw this on a different forum, and while they didn’t include a link, I’m pretty sure it’s for real:

All I want to know is what do vaccines cause adults to do?

[SoMuchTV]

1 minute ago, Ancaster said:

All I want to know is what do vaccines cause adults to do?

I know it’s hard to read tone on the internet, but taking your question at face value, the statement on the onesie is supposed to echo the thing some people are claiming, “vaccines cause autism” 

[shapeshifter]

16 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

All I want to know is what do vaccines cause adults to do?

11 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I know it’s hard to read tone on the internet, but taking your question at face value, the statement on the onesie is supposed to echo the thing some people are claiming, “vaccines cause autism” 

Yeah. But as one of the many here who is perhaps irrationally irked by some grammatical "errors," the ambiguity of meaning here bugs me.🤷🏼‍♀️

 

 

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

All I want to know is what do vaccines cause adults to do?

 

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

I know it’s hard to read tone on the internet, but taking your question at face value, the statement on the onesie is supposed to echo the thing some people are claiming, “vaccines cause autism” 

 

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah. But as one of the many here who is perhaps irrationally irked by some grammatical "errors," the ambiguity of meaning here bugs me.🤷🏼‍♀️

So should we also be asking what vaccines cause autism to do? I think there’s a point where either you get it or you don’t. 

[Ancaster]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

I know it’s hard to read tone on the internet, but taking your question at face value, the statement on the onesie is supposed to echo the thing some people are claiming, “vaccines cause autism” 

Thanks for the explanation.  I suppose I'm just grateful I don't always get the reference.

Edited April 18 by Ancaster

[Ancaster]

Am I the only one who could keep posting here all day long?

This from a televised press release for a major sports player: his plan blah blah blah is "to continue increase on his court basketball activities."

What is that even supposed to mean, and how do these people get their jobs?  Don't they need any qualifications?  Is it his niece's babysitter's brother-in-law's cousin?  Is no-one embarrassed?

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, Ancaster said:

Am I the only one who could keep posting here all day long?

This from a televised press release for a major sports player: his plan blah blah blah is "to continue increase on his court basketball activities."

What is that even supposed to mean, and how do these people get their jobs?  Don't they need any qualifications?  Is it his niece's babysitter's brother-in-law's cousin?  Is no-one embarrassed?

Some of these kinds of word salad entries are due to a lack of final editing after having done cutting and pasting.

[SVNBob]

5 hours ago, Ancaster said:

All I want to know is what do vaccines cause adults to do?

Exist.

[Browncoat]

14 hours ago, Ancaster said:

Am I the only one who could keep posting here all day long?

This from a televised press release for a major sports player: his plan blah blah blah is "to continue increase on his court basketball activities."

What is that even supposed to mean, and how do these people get their jobs?  Don't they need any qualifications?  Is it his niece's babysitter's brother-in-law's cousin?  Is no-one embarrassed?

Once upon a time, many years ago, there was a basketball player at NC State who said he was "amphibious" because he could shoot with either hand.  As I recall, that was the first and only time he was allowed to speak to the press.

[Mondrianyone]

52 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

As I recall, that was the first and only time he was allowed to speak to the press.

So they excommunicated him?

[Milburn Stone]

11 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Exist.

Yes. The understood words (those that don't need to be said) at the end of the sentence are "to happen."

Grammatical English is full of understood words. Example: "He is much more enthusiastic than I." The understood word at the end of the sentence is "am." It doesn't need to be said.

[SweetieDarling]

Would "Vaccines cause adulthood" be better/ less confusing?