Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[chitowngirl]

I remember reading something similar as to why it’s Tic-Tac-Toe and not ever Toe-Tic-Tac; Rock and Roll and not Roll and Rock…..it had something to do with the vowels.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Has this been discussed?  I find it so interesting:

 

32 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm desperately trying to think of an example that violates that, and I can't.

Intriguing. I've never heard/read that before, but I suspect it's something I've internalized. 

Let's see:

1. opinion
2. size
3. age
4. shape
5. colour
6. origin
7. material
8. purpose
9. [Noun]

But is this a primarily British custom?
Just wondering because of "colour" instead of "color."

Here's part of a recent post on another thread, in which I think I rearranged the the adjectives because they didn't "work" as originally typed:

"…I cannot imagine too many strong, young, unemployed people who would be mentally and temperamentally suited to helping an elderly person…"

It seems "young" should have come before "strong," right?
Or is "strong" a size rather than a shape?
 

[SoMuchTV]

6 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Has this been discussed?  I find it so interesting:

 

Apparently my normal browser is filtering out that post; I had to go to one of my “spares” to see it.  So in case I’m not the only one:

[Lugal]

I've seen that adjective order thing before, and it is interesting because if you do change the order, it can change the meaning of the phrase.  Like the example they give, "green great dragons", if you say it, it could imply that a green great dragon is a specific type of dragon (as opposed to green little dragons or even red great dragons) or that you're comparing one to another (the green great dragon here as opposed to the red great dragon there).

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, Lugal said:

I've seen that adjective order thing before, and it is interesting because if you do change the order, it can change the meaning of the phrase.  Like the example they give, "green great dragons", if you say it, it could imply that a green great dragon is a specific type of dragon (as opposed to green little dragons or even red great dragons) or that you're comparing one to another (the green great dragon here as opposed to the red great dragon there).

I think the "out" that the adjective-order people would take is that in this example, "great dragon"--if it is the name of a species of dragon--is actually a noun phrase in which "great" doesn't function as an adjective at all, but is an essential component of the noun.

[shapeshifter]

The Associated Press published a grammar error online yesterday by seemingly using copy-and-paste:
The grammatically correct photo caption reads as:

• "…an inevitable end for the firebrand [XXX] who became one of [XXX] most ardent critics."

And the grammatically incorrect first line of the article directly below the photo:

• "The [XXX] had became one of [XXX] most ardent critics and a symbol of the [XXX] and beyond."

"Became" should have become "become" in the first paragraph.
I can't help wondering if AI was involved in this error.
Or would AI have corrected it?

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

"The [XXX] had became

I searched for "had became" on the AP News site.  This is not the first time they've done it.

What's funny is that when I used google verbatim, it asked:

Quote

Did you mean: "has became" site:apnews.com

With no question mark.  Anyway, no, "has became" hadn't occurred to me, but apparently it should have, given the results.

And what's even funnier is that when I did the same search, using the same quotation marks, in regular google, it didn't ask me if I meant "has became."  Google verbatim is for people who are doing a very precise search and want only perfect results, and don't want "help" from google. 

Yet it offered help, while regular google, and its AI emphasis these days, didn't try to "help." 

I give up.

 

 

[Quof]

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I give up.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

[shapeshifter]

Here's a free gift link to linguist John McWhorter's article: 
“Miracle Whip, Onboarding and the Wonders of the English Language,” July 4, 2024, New York Times.

It has a few new takes on modern language, which may or may not be covered in more depth in his forthcoming book titled “Pronoun Trouble” 
— which I suppose was the impetus for that article, but the book isn't available until April 2025, so: 🤷🏻‍♀️
Might he still be working on it? 

By the end of the article I wondered if he might be microdosing mushrooms; I hear that's being prescribed for anxiety and depression these days.
Or maybe he just really wanted to share a book about physics he enjoyed
— sort of like me wanting to share these free links to NY Times articles that I never seem to use up. It's one of the few perks I still have as a retiree from a college library.

P.S. 
Miracle Whip is too sweet for me.

Edited July 7 by shapeshifter
typos, wordos, etc.

[DXD526]

Heard on a sportscast today: "He woke up at 4:30 a.m. in the morning..."

As opposed to 4:30 a.m. in the afternoon? Grrrrrr...

[Annber03]

Ha, YES, that one always bugs me, too. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, DXD526 said:

Heard on a sportscast today: "He woke up at 4:30 a.m. in the morning..."

As opposed to 4:30 a.m. in the afternoon? Grrrrrr...

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

Ha, YES, that one always bugs me, too. 

Eh, I frequently wake up at 4:30 a.m.
A little redundancy for emphasis seems appropriate, especially if you went to bed around midnight.

 

[Browncoat]

12 hours ago, DXD526 said:

Heard on a sportscast today: "He woke up at 4:30 a.m. in the morning..."

As opposed to 4:30 a.m. in the afternoon? Grrrrrr...

That one bugs me as well.

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, DXD526 said:

Heard on a sportscast today: "He woke up at 4:30 a.m. in the morning..."

As opposed to 4:30 a.m. in the afternoon? Grrrrrr...

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Eh, I frequently wake up at 4:30 a.m.
A little redundancy for emphasis seems appropriate, especially if you went to bed around midnight.

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

That one bugs me as well.

For me, it would probably depend upon whether there was emphasis on the "in the morning." 
Maybe there'd even be a little dramatic pause with an audible yawn.
 

 

[Quof]

It's okay when Adele does it.

[shapeshifter]

Heard in the car on an NPR program by someone stressing the effects of human-caused climate change upon weather, and the resulting impact upon food crops:
"…further exasperates the hunger crisis…" 
This was not the only malapropism in the one sentence of the program I heard. 
I had to turn it off so I wouldn't forget "exasperates" for "exacerbates."
If I can find the podcast, I'll report back here with more fun gaffes.

[Bastet]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

"exasperates" for "exacerbates."

A friend of mine does that so frequently, despite being corrected, I swear she's just doing it to fuck with me.

[SoMuchTV]

20 minutes ago, Bastet said:

A friend of mine does that so frequently, despite being corrected, I swear she's just doing it to fuck with me.

And now I’m wondering what kind of life your friend is living, where so many things are exacerbating. And is she exasperated about her friends correcting her? 

[Bastet]

2 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

And is she exasperated about her friends correcting her? 

It's her mom doing the correcting (it bugs me every bit as much, I just don't say anything).  As for how frequently she has cause to (mis)use the term, that's on her coworkers.  Hopefully that means there's an end date to my aggravation, if enough of them quit/get fired and are replaced with sane people.

[Quof]

Can we launch an educational campaign to teach the respective meanings of weary, leery, and wary?

(Yes, that's a damned Oxford comma.)

 

[annzeepark914]

These mispronunciations of words brought up a childhood memory. I think I was between 11-12. We were sitting at the kitchen table, eating supper. Maybe something was chewy. So, little smartypants (the kid who loved perusing my dictionary & encyclopedia) announced, "I *must* masticate my food very carefully". The looks on my parents & sister were hilariously unforgettable. They probably thought I was going to mistakenly use the wrong word 😁

[Milburn Stone]

On 7/18/2024 at 4:01 AM, Quof said:

(Yes, that's a damned Oxford comma.)

I have gone over to that side also.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 7/18/2024 at 5:01 AM, Quof said:

(Yes, that's a damned Oxford comma.)

I've always loved and used the Oxford comma!

 

[SoMuchTV]

48 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I've always loved and used the Oxford comma!

I’ve always loved, used, and respected the Oxford comma!

[Browncoat]

56 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I've always loved and used the Oxford comma!

 

 

7 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I’ve always loved, used, and respected the Oxford comma!

Add me to the Oxford comma club!

[chitowngirl]

🙋🏼‍♀️

[emma675]

Oxford commas for life!

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, emma675 said:

Oxford commas for life!

Oxford commas for life, the universe, and everything! (Sorry, have I driven that joke into the ground?)

And yes, I’m aware that Douglas Adams’ novel (3rd in the 6-volume Hitchhiker “trilogy”) does not include the Oxford comma.

 

Edited July 19 by SoMuchTV

[ABay]

Well. I think Doug was a Cambridge grad...

[EtheltoTillie]

We always called it the serial comma at the magazines I worked at. 

[shapeshifter]

To explain the Oxford or serial comma: 
Eats, shoots and leaves

It's all about communication.

[Salacious Kitty]

Mr favorite illustration: 

 

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Mr favorite illustration: 

 

I once referenced this during a job interview. I did not get the job. LOLOLOL 

[SoMuchTV]

I was trying to remember an example I’d heard involving the pope, and google reminded me of these:

• With gratitude to my parents, Mother Teresa, and the pope 
• For teaching me that the Oxford comma resolves ambiguity, I'd like to thank my parents, Sinead O'Connor and the Pope 
• The speaker lineup will include the world's most famous serial killers, the Dalai Lama and the pope

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I was trying to remember an example I’d heard involving the pope, and google reminded me of these:

• With gratitude to my parents, Mother Teresa, and the pope 
• For teaching me that the Oxford comma resolves ambiguity, I'd like to thank my parents, Sinead O'Connor and the Pope 
• The speaker lineup will include the world's most famous serial killers, the Dalai Lama and the pope

My college grammar instructor had a good example that involved other faculty, as well as one where someone thanks their parents, Elvis and Marilyn Monroe. I wished I'd thought of them for that grant writing position I was applying for when they asked me about Oxford commas, but nope my mind went to strippers, Stalin, and JFK. 😂

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I once referenced this during a job interview. I did not get the job. LOLOLOL 

59 minutes ago, Zella said:

My college grammar instructor had a good example that involved other faculty, as well as one where someone thanks their parents, Elvis and Marilyn Monroe. I wished I'd thought of them for that grant writing position I was applying for when they asked me about Oxford commas, but nope my mind went to strippers, Stalin, and JFK. 😂

Ah. So you didn't use the illustration. Well, then, I guess you can't blame it on the poor likenesses of the caricatures. That was my issue.

 

Edited July 20 by shapeshifter

[Quof]

Why do people insist on saying "a friend of mine's" (insert noun - dog, car, child)? 

Say "a friend's (dog, car, child)".  We all know the friend is yours. 

Or say "my friend's (dog, car, child).  No one is going to jump to the conclusion you are a loser and this is your only friend. 

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, Quof said:

Why do people insist on saying "a friend of mine's" (insert noun - dog, car, child)? 

Say "a friend's (dog, car, child)".  We all know the friend is yours. 

Or say "my friend's (dog, car, child).  No one is going to jump to the conclusion you are a loser and this is your only friend. 

It's better than "Bob and I's" whatever.  An even worse error IMO.

Edited July 30 by EtheltoTillie

[Quof]

Yes, the possessive pronoun "I's" is amongst the worst offenders ever.  But trying to make the adjective "mine" possessive is also an abomination.  Does it all stem from the fact people don't understand apostrophes? 

[shapeshifter]

16 minutes ago, Quof said:

Yes, the possessive pronoun "I's" is amongst the worst offenders ever.  But trying to make the adjective "mine" possessive is also an abomination.  Does it all stem from the fact people don't understand apostrophes? 

When I looked "mine's" up after reading the posts above, online discussions pointed out that "mine's can be used as a contraction for "mine has" or "mine is," such as "Mine's the purple hat."

I don't readily see how that would have contributed to the use of "mine's" as a possessive, but it could have.

"Mine's" as a possessive seems to me to have been born out of one or more ESL situations, whether current, or passed down through generations, like some of the weird (to my ears) sayings and pronunciations in Pittsburgh PA, certain Chicago suburbs, and even Rochester NY.

But this is not something I can recall hearing:

4 hours ago, Quof said:

"a friend of mine's" (insert noun - dog, car, child)? 

Is it a Southern US speech solecism?

Edited July 30 by shapeshifter

[Quof]

My objection is to the insistence of adding "of mine's", when simply saying "a friend's" will suffice and doesn't hurt the ears.  

[StatisticalOutlier]

Would you have an equal objection to "A friend of mine has that same shirt"?  Or is it only the possessive that rankles?

[Quof]

The apostrophe is gone, which is always a victory, but the "of mine" remains superfluous. Unnecessary words make the baby Jesus cry.  

[shapeshifter]

17 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Would you have an equal objection to "A friend of mine has that same shirt"?  Or is it only the possessive that rankles?

14 minutes ago, Quof said:

The apostrophe is gone, which is always a victory, but the "of mine" remains superfluous. Unnecessary words make the baby Jesus cry.  

🤣
Let's go with:

• My friend has the same shirt!

 

[Mondrianyone]

It's called a double genitive, and it's been an acceptable usage in English forever.

[EtheltoTillie]

In general, I’m against extra, or needless, words, as Strunk and White would say, but I’m not as strict as @Quof  Language loses color and meaning without the idiomatic flourishes in informal speech. 

[Ancaster]

"Cringe".

Please just go away.

[Quof]

I'm getting a new (to me) assistant next week. She's lovely, and I'm sure her technical knowledge is top notch, however her vocabulary and grammar are rough.   I expect I will end up writing a lot of the basic correspondence myself, because I will not tolerate a letter leaving my office that says "If you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact myself".  

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Quof said:

I'm getting a new (to me) assistant next week. She's lovely, and I'm sure her technical knowledge is top notch, however her vocabulary and grammar are rough.   I expect I will end up writing a lot of the basic correspondence myself, because I will not tolerate a letter leaving my office that says "If you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact myself".  

My former boss automatically rejected job applicants' letters and résumés if they had grammar errors or typos. This is why. 

A former work friend who is now in a managerial position has this problem, and, yes, she has to proofread everything, correcting times and dates too.
Unfortunately, sometimes stuff is mass emailed before she sees it, and then she has to deal with the fallout from the miscommunications. 

 

[Quof]

My boss is one of the worst offenders, with his repeated misuse of "myself", so he wouldn't have recognized if she got it wrong in her application or interview!