Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

"Well" is often used as an opening to musing on some subject.
The "p" on the end of welp gives it a sound of stopping.

[Brookside]

"I've had three grandparents die as an adult."

My initial thought was to be relieved that the grandparents (and parents)  weren't children when they died.  Second thought: how could they be grandparents if they weren't adults?

[Brookside]

"as a private citizen she watched Serena play in the friends and family box."

Sometimes you just have to laugh.

[Stats Queen]

On 7/21/2019 at 9:14 PM, SuprSuprElevated said:

A good reference for contemporary 'speak' urbandictionary.com

In general, "dope" means really good.

Urban dictionary has been disturbingly educational for me.

[legaleagle53]

On 7/21/2019 at 6:50 PM, DearEvette said:

I don't know the etymology, but I always think of 'welp'  = 'well' + a tone of disappointment or resignation.  So not necessarily a one-to-one replacement for 'well.'  More like "oh well."

I always just assumed that it was a typo that resulted from somebody's fat fingers trying to type too fast ("l" and "p" are adjacent to each other on the keyboard), just as "pwned" began life as a typo for "owned."

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I always just assumed that it was a typo that resulted from somebody's fat fingers trying to type too fast ("l" and "p" are adjacent to each other on the keyboard), just as "pwned" began life as a typo for "owned."

I hate that one with the fire of a thousand nuns.  😉

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I always just assumed that it was a typo that resulted from somebody's fat fingers trying to type too fast ("l" and "p" are adjacent to each other on the keyboard), just as "pwned" began life as a typo for "owned."

Nah. "Welp" predates typing on virtual keyboards, as well as phones with tiny keys, even those with 3 characters per key.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I hate that one with the fire of a thousand nuns.  😉

ISWYDT

[ABay]

I think of "welp" as a colloquialism for "well", like "nope" for" no" or "yep" for "yes".

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, ABay said:

I think of "welp" as a colloquialism for "well", like "nope" for" no" or "yep" for "yes".

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
At least, this makes the most sense to me.
And I think in all three instances, the addition of the "p" (a "stop consonant") at the end, slightly changes the meaning (as described above by others).
For instance:

On 7/21/2019 at 8:50 PM, DearEvette said:

I don't know the etymology, but I always think of 'welp'  = 'well' + a tone of disappointment or resignation.  So not necessarily a one-to-one replacement for 'well.'  More like "oh well."

[supposebly]

Words that they're watching on Merriam Webster.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/welp-meaning

[FormerMod-a1]

From that article

Quote

But welp has a sense of resignation and finality that well often doesn't have:

Which is why to me it was a combo of "Well" and a <gulp> (as mentioned above), which is not exactly the same, but definitely conveys more then a neutral "well".  It has a slightly negative addition to the "well". 

[topanga]

On 7/21/2019 at 9:16 PM, Mittengirl said:

When did “welp” become a replacement for “well” - as in “Welp, that episode sucked!” - and why?

On 7/21/2019 at 9:50 PM, DearEvette said:

I don't know the etymology, but I always think of 'welp'  = 'well' + a tone of disappointment or resignation.  So not necessarily a one-to-one replacement for 'well.'  More like "oh well."

I blame Steve Harvey. LOL. He says "Welp!" multiple times on Family Feud. 

[Ohwell]

I was taught that "loan" was a noun, as in "a loan."  Nowadays, instead of  "lend" someone money,  I hear "loan" someone money and if I had said that in school the teacher would have corrected me.  Also, banks are still referred to as "lending" institutions, not "loaning" institutions.  Does no one lend anything anymore?

[rainsmom]

57 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I was taught that "loan" was a noun, as in "a loan."  Nowadays, instead of  "lend" someone money,  I hear "loan" someone money and if I had said that in school the teacher would have corrected me.  Also, banks are still referred to as "lending" institutions, not "loaning" institutions.  Does no one lend anything anymore?

You made me curious, so I decided to look up the etymology. I found this on m-w.com:

Quote

The verb loan is one of the words English settlers brought to America and continued to use after it had died out in Britain. Its use was soon noticed by British visitors and somewhat later by the New England literati, who considered it a bit provincial. It was flatly declared wrong in 1870 by a popular commentator, who based his objection on etymology. A later scholar showed that the commentator was ignorant of Old English and thus unsound in his objection, but by then it was too late, as the condemnation had been picked up by many other commentators. Although a surprising number of critics still voice objections, loan is entirely standard as a verb. You should note that it is used only literally; lend is the verb used for figurative expressions, such as "lending a hand" or "lending enchantment."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loan

[supposebly]

The online etymology dictionary has this to say. Apparently, it's been attested as verb since 1540. Your teacher would have been wrong to correct you.

"loan (n.)

late 12c., "that which is lent or owning, a thing furnished on promise of future return," also "a gift or reward from a superior, a gift of God," from Old Norse lan "loan," from Proto-Germanic *laikhwniz (source also of Old Frisian len "thing lent," Middle Dutch lene, Dutch leen "loan, fief," Old High German lehan, German Lehn "fief, feudal tenure"), originally "to let have, to leave (to someone)," from PIE *loikw-nes-, suffixed form of root *leikw- "to leave." 

The Norse word also is cognate with Old English læn "gift," which according to OED did not survive into Middle English, but its derived verb lænan is the source of lend (v.). From early 15c. as "a contribution to public finances" (ostensibly voluntary but often coerced; sometimes repaid, sometimes not). As a verb, loan is attested from 1540s, perhaps earlier, and formerly was current, but it has now been supplanted in England by lend, though it survives in American English. Slang loan shark first attested 1900 (see shark (n.)).

I bolded.

[Ohwell]

"Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears"

[Brookside]

From an ad for Serta mattresses - apparently some bloke hadn't been sleeping well, but once he "laid on a Serta" he slept like a baby, and presumably made it into the Guinness Book of Records for his egg-laying abilities.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Brookside

[Milburn Stone]

I, too, was taught that the correct form of the verb is "lend." And you'll pry that conviction from my cold, dead hands.

[shapeshifter]

My mother often quoted "neither a borrower nor a lender be." *

"Neither a borrower nor a loaner be" just sounds wrong,
but
"neither a borrower nor a loan shark be" works, heh. 
  
  
  
  

_______________________
* Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act 1, scene 3, 75–77

Edited August 23, 2019 by shapeshifter

[chenoa333]

Maybe this belongs in a different thread. If so, please redirect me.

But this one: "My bad" and "Wait.....What?" I get anxiety just typing those words.

[shapeshifter]

[chenoa333]

On 8/17/2019 at 8:57 AM, Ohwell said:

I was taught that "loan" was a noun, as in "a loan."  Nowadays, instead of  "lend" someone money,  I hear "loan" someone money and if I had said that in school the teacher would have corrected me.  Also, banks are still referred to as "lending" institutions, not "loaning" institutions.  Does no one lend anything anymore?

Has anyone heard the new way of saying " she/he loaned me some money?" It's very common to hear this instead: 'he/she borrowed me some money".

Judge Judy watchers are familiar with this new interpretation of the old (but correct) way of saying it.

I'm already bored with having to go to the Urban Dictionary to find the meaning of words that never existed before. Sign language will soon have to be changed too. And I f'n HATE emogees. 

[shapeshifter]

15 minutes ago, chenoa333 said:

Has anyone heard the new way of saying " she/he loaned me some money?" It's very common to hear this instead: 'he/she borrowed me some money".

Judge Judy watchers are familiar with this new interpretation of the old (but correct) way of saying it.

At least I think people on Judge Judy's show and elsewhere are still saying that someone "borrowed some money from me" not "borrowed me some money," which I think I would notice, but maybe not?

[fairffaxx]

1 hour ago, chenoa333 said:

... I'm already bored with having to go to the Urban Dictionary to find the meaning of words that never existed before. Sign language will soon have to be changed too. And I f'n HATE emogees. 

I hate emojis too, but other people insist on using them, so it's nice to know (I guess) that there's an Emoji Dictionary Site.

[chenoa333]

10 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

I hate emojis too, but other people insist on using them, so it's nice to know (I guess) that there's an Emoji Dictionary Site.

I thought if I didn't acknowledge the Emoji Dictionary it would stop me from always asking myself "is that the right smiley face I want to use?" And then I just said "F it. I don't care."

[shapeshifter]

I just heard that hair regrowth commercial again with the grammar gaff that manages to bug me even more than anything else in the commercial:

Quote

It changes the way I see myself; it changes the way others see myself.

I silently yell "me!" every time I hear the second instance of "myself," but then I calm down when I consider that at least the grammar mistake means that the woman claiming to have had success with the hair growth stimulation product is probably not an actor. 

[Milburn Stone]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I just heard that hair regrowth commercial again with the grammar gaff that manages to bug me even more than anything else in the commercial:

I silently yell "me!" every time I hear the second instance of "myself," but then I calm down when I consider that at least the grammar mistake means that the woman claiming to have had success with the hair growth stimulation product is probably not an actor. 

Doubly a shame, because had it been worded correctly, the line would have a beautiful cadence. 

[Ghost of TWOP Past]

Anyone here knowing why newsreaders now speaking like this? Everything present tense and avoiding any form of "is", leaving out actual verb? Newsreaders grating on ears and sounding brain damaged. 

Except that after the spoken "headline," they prove themselves capable of proper English again. They're all doing it now so it must be something they're being taught, for some noxious reason. 

[ABay]

8 hours ago, Ghost of TWOP Past said:

Anyone here knowing why newsreaders now speaking like this? Everything present tense and avoiding any form of "is", leaving out actual verb? Newsreaders grating on ears and sounding brain damaged.

ABC does this and it drives me crazy. Once you notice it, you can't stop noticing it.

Also, every night something is "breaking news at this hour" even if the event occurred hours ago, and every night is a "busy news night" even when it obviously isn't.

[shapeshifter]

New use of "Stop!"

In the past couple of months I have been startled when each of 3 Millennials —of varying race, income, and education— has interjected into a conversation, "Stop!" accompanied by a grin or, if conveyed via text message, immediately followed by "LOL."

Is it from a TV show?
Maybe a reality show (I don't watch those)?

What is up with this new use of "Stop!"?

Maybe the next time I hear "Stop!" used this way, I will burst out singing the Supremes' "Stop! In the Name of Love," but then if the person just says "Stop!" again, it might be because of my singing.

Edited September 9, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, ABay said:

...and every night is a "busy news night" even when it obviously isn't.

Rachel does this so incessantly that you'd think she'd realize the audience is on to her by now. Maybe she does and she can't help herself. Like it's become a tic.

The more I think about it, the more I think that's what it is. Or simply a "salutation." Like old-time newscasters used to start off their broadcasts with "Good evening Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea..."

Edited September 8, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[Mittengirl]

There is a local newsreader who starts every story with either “So...” “Alright...” “O.k., so...” or “Alright, so...”.  Every damn time.   It makes me want to shoot my t.v.

[jenniferhartwell]

Of course, nerds should accept a lot of the negative shit they get. If you are going to throw around your knowledge and act as if it makes you better than ordinary people, don't complain when the ordinary people hate you for it. Usage always trumps pedantry in the real world.

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, jenniferhartwell said:

Of course, nerds should accept a lot of the negative shit they get. If you are going to throw around your knowledge and act as if it makes you better than ordinary people, don't complain when the ordinary people hate you for it.

I don't think it makes me better than other people. I just think it makes me better at English than other people.

[chenoa333]

On 7/22/2019 at 2:02 AM, bijoux said:

I honestly never made the connection between welp and well. I just assumed the former meant yikes based on context. 

I thought it was a combo of "well" and "yep". But that's probably my Ohio roots.

[shapeshifter]

20 hours ago, Mittengirl said:

There is a local newsreader who starts every story with either “So...” “Alright...” “O.k., so...” or “Alright, so...”.  Every damn time.   It makes me want to shoot my t.v.

Back in the 1990s I was working in a Catholic high school when "So" first became a common way to start a sentence. I still fondly mark that moment in linguistic history by recalling how, after a student led the school in prayer, Principal Sister Helen remarked that it was the first time she had heard a prayer begun with "So," as in: "So in the name of the Father…," heh.

Sometime at least as early as the first half of the 20th century, "Now" became a common way to start sentences—which really bothers me when I occasionally still hear it. "So" doesn't bother me, but I know how it makes you feel.

[Anduin]

It actually dates back at least a thousand years. Beowulf starts with something similar.

[kassygreene]

I don't like "So...", but "I mean," especially when it doesn't start a sentence meant to clarify the previous sentence because in fact there is no previous sentence, makes me crazy-ragy.

I was just griping about this last week. 

Not two minutes later I started a sentence with "I mean," without first saying something that required clarification.

I mean, sheesh!

[shapeshifter]

In high school French class in the 1960s "Donc" (so) was a vocabulary word used to start sentences.

I'm really curious as to whether it's use ever bugs Francophones.

Edited September 10, 2019 by shapeshifter

[SuprSuprElevated]

My 88-yr old mother, who has many quirks, has a verbal habit that drives me bat spit crazy.  She will ask a question, I will answer the question, then she will follow with "so in other words....", then proceed to repeat exactly what I responded, in her own words.

Stabby

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, SuprSuprElevated said:

My 88-yr old mother, who has many quirks, has a verbal habit that drives me bat spit crazy.  She will ask a question, I will answer the question, then she will follow with "so in other words....", then proceed to repeat exactly what I responded, in her own words.

You say she repeats what you said in her own words. Do you mean that, or do you in fact mean that she repeats your words in her own voice? Because those are two different things.

I myself often repeat in my own words what someone has said to me--i.e., using words other than the ones they used--as a double-check that I've understood their meaning as intended. If they affirm that my different words mean the same as what they said, then we know we're on the same page.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[SuprSuprElevated]

37 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

You say she repeats what you said in her own words. Do you mean that, or do you in fact mean that she repeats your words in her own voice? Because those are two different things.

I myself often repeat in my own words what someone has said to me--i.e., using words other than the ones they used--as a double-check that I've understood their meaning as intended. If they affirm that my different words mean the same as what they said, then we know we're on the same page.

I stated this incorrectly.  True to form, you caught me, lol.  Should have said that she repeats the essence of my answer, forming the response with her thoughts.

[Lugal]

22 hours ago, Anduin said:

It actually dates back at least a thousand years. Beowulf starts with something similar.

As Seamus Heaney, whose translation of Beowulf is considered one of the best, explains:

"Conventional renderings of hwæt, the first word of the poem, tend towards the archaic literary, with "lo" and "hark" and "behold" and "attend" and--more colloquially--"listen" being some of the solutions offered previously. But in Hiberno-English Scullionspeak, the particle "so" came naturally to the rescue, because in that idiom "so" operates as an expression which obliterates all previous discourse and narrative, and at the same time functions as an exclamation calling for immediate attention.  So, "so" it was:"

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, Lugal said:

As Seamus Heaney, whose translation of Beowulf is considered one of the best, explains:

"Conventional renderings of hwæt, the first word of the poem, tend towards the archaic literary, with "lo" and "hark" and "behold" and "attend" and--more colloquially--"listen" being some of the solutions offered previously. But in Hiberno-English Scullionspeak, the particle "so" came naturally to the rescue, because in that idiom "so" operates as an expression which obliterates all previous discourse and narrative, and at the same time functions as an exclamation calling for immediate attention.  So, "so" it was:"

So, en français, Beowulf would begin with "Donc," n'est-ce pas? 

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

In high school French class in the 1960s "Donc" (so) was a vocabulary word used to start sentences.

Edited September 11, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Lugal]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

So, en français, Beowulf would begin with "Donc," n'est-ce pas? 

It sounds plausible, although I've seen Old French texts where Dunc is used, so that may be more era-appropriate.  However, my French isn't that great and I picked what little I know in Canada.  So when I tried to speak to a Parisian friend my accent was vaguely Quebecois and so she laughed at me and said, "what the hell is that?"

[fairffaxx]

30 minutes ago, Lugal said:

...  However, my French isn't that great and I picked what little I know in Canada.  So when I tried to speak to a Parisian friend my accent was vaguely Quebecois and so she laughed at me and said, "what the hell is that?"

How Parisian of her!

[Brookside]

People who can't manage the difference between its and it's.

[Brookside]

On 9/5/2019 at 8:35 AM, shapeshifter said:

I just heard that hair regrowth commercial again with the grammar gaff that manages to bug me even more than anything else in the commercial:

. 

Gaffe not gaff.

[Brookside]

On 9/8/2019 at 9:12 PM, Mittengirl said:

There is a local newsreader who starts every story with either “So...” “Alright...” “O.k., so...” or “Alright, so...”.  Every damn time.   It makes me want to shoot my t.v.

My ex couldn't start a sentence without saying "Like".  Drove me crazy.  And people wonder why I asked him for a divorce.

I love this forum!