Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Shannon L.]

 

While we're talking about pronunciation, could someone please. for the love of God, teach Ted Cruz how to pronounce Khomeini.

Not that I doubt Ted Cruz is an idiot no matter what, but the problem is that Cruz isn't talking about long dead Ruhollah Khomeini. He's talking about the living Ali Khamenei.

I don't think you owe a shit like Cruz an apology, mind you, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I'm so embarrassed now.  But, I do appreciate the correction--seriously.  Thank you.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Shannon L.

[Kromm]

I'm so embarrassed now.  But, I do appreciate the correction--seriously.  Thank you.

Well think about it this way. He has people to check on stuff like this. We have to do it ourselves.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I assume his parents determined how his name would be pronounced.

 

Kind of like On-drea Zuckerman.

 

Well, to be fair, I always thought Ohhhhhhhhhhhn-drea was pretentious too, so there's that. :-P

[shapeshifter]

My kids had a babysitter named Yvonne whose name was pronounced (by her parents) as Yi Vonn (with the Y as in yellow).

I thought it was weird.

[ABay]

I knew a girl named Marcia, pronounced mar-see-a.

[shapeshifter]

While on an airplane (with in-flight access to TV provided only if I had downloaded the appropriate app prior to boarding—but that's a subject for a different thread) this notice in the toilet caught my eye:

As a Courtesy to the Next Passenger

May We Suggest that You Use Your Towel

to Wipe Off Water Basin.

Thank You!

I first noticed the lack of a question mark, but when I realized each significant word was capitalized (title case style), the words "passive aggressive" popped into my mind. Also, the exclamation point after "Thank You" seemed to take on a menacing air in place of it's current signifier of friendliness. Is it just me?

[MaryPatShelby]

Again, I've only ever heard it pronounced as "GREEN Bay".  "Green BAY" sounds unnatural to my ear because adjectives typically tend to receive emphasis in speech because of their function of distinguishing the nouns they modify.

 

[/url]

Born, raised, and reared in Wisconsin, and it's Green BAY. Football announcers normally get it right though, except Aikman. What so many get wrong, however, is saying "Wesconsin". It's an I. It's pronounced like an I. Why act like it's really an E? Especially if you're an announcer on the Big Ten Network and your JOB is to cover UW-Wisconsin sports!!

[ABay]

This time of year I hear the use of "gift" in place of give or giving or gave. It vexes me. Here's an example adapted from something I read this morning:

 I usually gift a pillow embroidered with "In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge". I wish someone would gift me something like that.  I see no problem with gifting a person an embroidered pillow.

Edited November 10, 2015 by ABay

[Brattinella]

I totally agree.  Gift is a NOUN.  Gave, give, giving: VERBS.    Never the twain shall meet.

[Sandman87]

Turns out that "gift" has been used as a verb since the 1600s. "Gift" carries connotations of being a present for a specific occasion, like a birthday, while "give" is more general.

 

I agree that it sounds stupid.

[Quof]

A comedian, I believe Eddie Murphy, used to do a bit about how his mother could turn any noun into a verb:  "You want a cookie? I'll cookie you!"

 

My mother does the same "That sweater is looking really ratty, you should garbage it."

[MaryMitch]

One thing that bugs me is when reporters say "the alleged murder" or "the alleged crime".  Ok, I know they need to cover their butts by not naming a person as a murderer, but when someone is DEAD from a BULLET, it's a MURDER. No "alleged" about it.

[Quof]

 

but when someone is DEAD from a BULLET, it's a MURDER. No "alleged" about it.

Not necessarily, it might be self-inflicted or an accident or self-defence, or any number of other things that don't have the requisite elements to be, legally, a murder.   At best, they know for certain the person is dead as a result of a gunshot.

[ABay]

But the "alleged" should go with the person, unless/until the person is convicted, not the event. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by ABay

[Quof]

No, the legal elements must be established for it to be murder, regardless of who did it.

[ChromaKelly]

A comedian, I believe Eddie Murphy, used to do a bit about how his mother could turn any noun into a verb:  "You want a cookie? I'll cookie you!"

 

My mother does the same "That sweater is looking really ratty, you should garbage it."

Yes, there's the related "something-ed it" that people seem to be doing. We pooled it. (We went to the pool.) I'm going to lunch it. (go to lunch) Ugh... why?

[FormerMod-a1]

There are a number of gun shot wounds that in no way can be self inflicted - I think it'd be safe to say a murder happened. 

[Quof]

That's not the way the law works.

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't know, my news people say murder and theft and rape w/o "alleged" in front of it all the time.  The crime is the crime.  It's when talking about the people, whether potential suspects or victims, that one would use "alleged".   

[Brattinella]

"He was found murdered.  The ALLEGED murderer is his Girlfriend."  Allegedly murdered is not proper.

[Kromm]

That's not the way the law works.

I think the problem is that people are confusing any death by misadventure with "murder". As you say, that's just not how it works. The crime called "manslaughter" wouldn't exist if it did.

 

In other words, "self-inflicted" and "murder" are not the only two options (as several people have said).

"He was found murdered.  The ALLEGED murderer is his Girlfriend."  Allegedly murdered is not proper.

I think this is just a concession news people make to what sounds awkward.  They're temporarily using a non-legal application of the term "murder", that's all.

And that's just it. Sometimes people say things because of how it sounds more than what's technically correct. And that's fine.

[FormerMod-a1]

In other words, "self-inflicted" and "murder" are not the only two options (as several people have said).

 

 

I never said this.  I just said that sometimes it's obvious when not self-inflicted.  And sometimes people can tell it's murder or accident.  And when that's the case you don't  need to add "alleged" to it. We're not talking about in a court of law here, just on the news or in every day speak.  The crime is the crime.  

[Kromm]

sometimes people can tell it's murder or accident.  And when that's the case you don't  need to add "alleged" to it. We're not talking about in a court of law here, just on the news or in every day speak.  The crime is the crime.  

I'd argue that they can tell when it's self-inflicted or inflicted on someone else. That's not the same as being able to tell which it is between the three options of violence inflicted upon someone else (murder, manslaughter or self-defense).

 

But I think we can agree that on the news they tend to use an informal non-legal definition. Viewers hopefully understand the difference.

[Brattinella]

You are referring to VERDICTS, not acts of violence.  A murder is a murder, but sometimes the jury convicts of manslaughter.  It still is the same act.

[Kromm]

You are referring to VERDICTS, not acts of violence.  A murder is a murder, but sometimes the jury convicts of manslaughter.  It still is the same act.

I think this thread is normally about more overt violations of the language than this, but if we DO have to resort to checking a dictionary, even that definition seems to always include the phrase "premeditated" (or premeditation) in it. 

(or alternately they may say "malice aforethought", which means the same thing of course)

Apparently the proper phrase before that is simply "killing"/"killed".  That's the actual act. Admittedly that won't always fit into a nice clean-sounding sentence on a news report, which is why I suppose it's not what people feel compelled to say.

 

Getting back to the theoretical report talked about above, it might be something like...

 

"He was found dead.  The ALLEGED murderer is his Girlfriend." 

or possibly:

"The deceased was killed at {fill in details}.  The ALLEGED murderer is his Girlfriend."

 

It does seem like you have to shoehorn the language around not saying "was found murdered", which is why they don't bother to not say it that way. But I think it's simply a convenience that's still (nonetheless) incorrect. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Kromm

[Brattinella]

I'll have you know, I did not check a dictionary.  I'm not sure what you are referring to; news reports?  I find that news reporters/anchors are scripted to say what their handlers pay them to say.  And they use the word ALLEGED far too much.  The only reason they use it is so they can't be sued.

[Sandman87]

I do not see the problem with "alleged" in this context. Unless and until it is known beyond any doubt that it was a deliberate, unjustified killing, a journalist would not be doing their job properly if they didn't add "alleged" or "apparent" when using the word "murder." That's not even taking the legal risks into consideration.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Sandman87

[jnymph]

When did the letter "T" become obsolete?   Lately I hear (mostly young people) refer to kittens and mittens as "Ki-en's" and "Mi-en's" 

A young female co-worker recently told me she was embarrassed because her shirt was missing a "BA-IN".

I honestly asked her if she was referring to a "button."   She replied with disdain, "Yes. A BA-IN!" 

 

NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD.  

Edited November 12, 2015 by jnymph

[Brattinella]

When did the letter "T" become obsolete?   Lately I hear (mostly young people) refer to kittens and mittens as "Ki-en's" and "Mi-en's" 

A young female co-worker recently told me she was embarrassed because her shirt was missing a "BA-IN".

I honestly asked her if she was referring to a "button."   She replied with disdain, "Yes. A BA-IN!" 

 

NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD.  

DING DING DING!  Pet peeve of my life (see previous 10+ posts on the subject).

[Shannon L.]

 

When did the letter "T" become obsolete?   Lately I hear (mostly young people) refer to kittens and mittens as "Ki-en's" and "Mi-en's"

I've been hearing that for years. My mother was a stickler for making sure we pronounced our "t's" and my husband and I do the same with our kids. It's like nails on a chalk board when I don't hear it.

[Kromm]

Is it only t in the middle of words? I mean otherwise, the thing on women's chests would be "its".

[Cobalt Stargazer]

When did the letter "T" become obsolete?   Lately I hear (mostly young people) refer to kittens and mittens as "Ki-en's" and "Mi-en's"

 

This has come up in another section of the forums, and I don't think its so much obsolete as it is a lack of enunciation. I did a couple of weekends of animal rescue work after a fairly big storm here in NC, and a woman I worked with also pronounced it 'ki-en'. Perfectly nice lady otherwise, but that one word drove me crazy.

[jnymph]

Is it only t in the middle of words? I mean otherwise, the thing on women's chests would be "its".

I guess you're right.  Seems to be prevalent with middle "T"s.  

Actually heard it in a recent commercial (can't recall what the product was. Some sort of electronic device, maybe?).  The song in the commercial was a remake of of "My Favorite Things" and the singer actually sings the lyric as "...raindrops on roses and whiskers on ki-en's" !!!!  GAHHHHH !!!!!!!!! Someone make it stop!!!!!!!!

 

DING DING DING!  Pet peeve of my life (see previous 10+ posts on the subject).

Oh, sorry Brattinella, to repeat this horrid issue.  I neglected to see your previous posts.   I will go back and check it out.  It may make me feel better to commiserate. 

 

eta:  the commercial is for Samsung.  

Edited November 12, 2015 by jnymph

[Brattinella]

No problem, jnymph.  I've been beating that dead horse around here for a while now, and it STILL makes me just as insane to hear it!

 

And the song "My Favorite Things"?  That is just pure sacrilege, Julie ANDREWS, for god's sake!

[Sandman87]

Is it only t in the middle of words? I mean otherwise, the thing on women's chests would be "its".

Wouldn't they be "i's?" Then I'd be confused as hell when they kept telling me "My eyes are up here."

[supposebly]

 

Is it only t in the middle of words? I mean otherwise, the thing on women's chests would be "its".

 

It's called glottalization. It happens for /t/ when the syllable before it is stressed and the following has an /n. That's why it happens for button but not for baton. Many people also do it for the /t/ in words like mountain or curtain. It's a sound made by closing the glottis for a moment. There is nothing lazy about it.

 

It's the exception for the flapping/tapping rule in North American variants that happens in the same environment except there is no /n/ in the following syllable. A flap or tap is the very soft not-quite d-sound in the North American pronunciation of words like butter. This one happens across words too. Like in I don't like it at all.

 

You can try to see if you notice it in a sequence like not in the glass but in the bottle. English isn't my native language, so I don't do it consistently all the time. You should tap/flap the /t/ of not and bottle but possibly glottalize the /t/ in but. It's not as common across words and if in after but is stressed, then it shouldn't happen.

 

Flapping happens in most North American dialects. Cockney English on the other hand has glottalization where North American English has flapping. There, you would get bu-er for butter. Actually, the /r/ would be dropped too.

 

A Wikipedia article on t-glottalization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-glottalization

[riley702]

Neat! That's very interesting.

[Haleth]

There is an Aldi's commercial where a little girl over pronounces the Ts in peanut butter and that's just as annoying to my ears.  There must be some happy medium between bu'er and buT-Ter.

[Kromm]

There is an Aldi's commercial where a little girl over pronounces the Ts in peanut butter and that's just as annoying to my ears.  There must be some happy medium between bu'er and buT-Ter.

Since Aldi is multinational (almost 10,000 stores in 18 countries), I have to ask "a commercial in what country"?

[Sandman87]

From the local news tonight: "The President addressed the country with his annual Christmas address." Presumably he also announced some announcements and commented some comments.

[Sandman87]

We've reached that magical time of year when local businesses are running TV and radio ads telling us to "bring in the new year" with their latest sale. No, it's ring in the new year, unless you've been keeping the new year outside and want to move it inside.

[St. Claire]

Well, in some areas of the country, it's cold and snowy. bring in your pets and your new year!

[Wings]

From the local news tonight: "The President addressed the country with his annual Christmas address." Presumably he also announced some announcements and commented some comments.

 

Ha ha!  Bureau of Redundancy Bureau.  

[BookWoman56]

From the local news tonight: "The President addressed the country with his annual Christmas address." Presumably he also announced some announcements and commented some comments.

This reminds me of something columnist and author Dave Barry said about why he gave up working in a regular office, which was that he got tired of trying to teach people to quit writing sentences such as "Enclosed please find the enclosed enclosures."  I guess the redundancy disease remains uncured.

[ByTor]

What makes my skin crawl is when people add "wuh" to the end of words. No...wuh! I told you to go-wuh! I don't know-wuh!

[Haleth]

Not a grammar error but I was this [] close to contacting a local news anchor because she was talking about the season premiere of Downton Abbey and continually called it DownTOWN Abbey.  For Pete's sake, the show is in its 6th year and is not exactly unknown.  It bothered me more than it should.

 

(Corrected to avoid further embarassment.)

Edited January 8, 2016 by Haleth

[Quof]

 

the show is in it's 6th year

Isn't this post a little ironic on this thread?

[shapeshifter]

the show is in it's 6th year

Isn't this post a little ironic on this thread?

Only if we find it surprising--which I suppose it is. Contractions are so easy to check for correct usage, but I struggle so much with when to use "ironic" that I avoid it as a word choice.

[Haleth]

I hang my head in shame.  I do know better.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Haleth

[shapeshifter]

I hang my head in shame.  I do know better.

I assumed you were on an iPhone or iPad that "corrected" your typing. It's very convenient to be able to type d o n t and get don't, but annoying and/or embarrassing when it changes i t s to it's.

Anyway, I will remember this example when I'm wrestling with the use of ironic.