All Episodes Discussion

[MsJamieDornan]

Shoot, I've seen one of them.

[Court]

I hope the niece and her husband get arrested and charged with something. Melanie absolutely knows what happened and is just as crazy as Lori. 

I cannot believe he used the word hype to describe two missing children who were likely murdered

 

[Ohmo]

8 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

The last I could find out about Chad is that they're investigating his previous wife's death, only a few weeks before he married Lori Vallow.     I didn't see anything about an indictment, but there are so many stories about the couple, and the missing children, it's hard to sort through. 

The latest that I could find about the case.

Documents sent by Chad Daybell reveal so-called 'past lives' of Lori Vallow

Lori Daybell's brother Alex Cox died 'of natural causes' autopsy finds

[Chalby]

On 2/15/2020 at 11:22 AM, Ohmo said:

This show made me so mad I could spit.  Chad and Lori have done something to Tylee and JJ.  Every fiber of my being says that, and it pisses me off that they're not locked up.

I agree 100% I am totally baffled that Lori can turn around and offer up NOTHING about where her children are, whether they are physically alive, what she needed to pack the kids' items in storage for, and why is she allowed to ignore the laws? She was only asked to bring forth her children which she won't. Am I the only one who became worried when it was implied that no one had enough evidence on her?I feel sick because regardless of the outcome - Lori is released. (That is God's work as she's needed to usher in the EOT). If she is jailed for murder, which I feel is the situation after this much time missing) is Satan then going to be blamed for making her and her brother kill her kids. My heart always goes out to children who are born into homes where the parents are zealots when it comes to religion. It is such a huge culture shock if they break free, or it's a continued rant about "the evil that outsiders perpetrate" making kids frightened to even converse with regular people.  

[CrazyInAlabama]

You can't force someone to talk to the police or prosecutors.   

All she has to do is keep her mouth shut, and if her husband bails her out, then I bet we'll never see her again.  They certainly have the resources to vanish to somewhere that doesn't send you back to the U.S. for any crime.  

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

You can't force someone to talk to the police or prosecutors.   

All she has to do is keep her mouth shut, and if her husband bails her out, then I bet we'll never see her again.  They certainly have the resources to vanish to somewhere that doesn't send you back to the U.S. for any crime.  

There is no way her passport wouldn’t be confiscated and it’s even harder to travel currently with all the restrictions so it’s hihh doubtful she would be successful at fleeing internationally.

[Chalby]

29 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

There is no way her passport wouldn’t be confiscated and it’s even harder to travel currently with all the restrictions so it’s hihh doubtful she would be successful at fleeing internationally.

Lori and Chad may have a 'hidden bunker' in the States to hide out in. They are probably pointing to COVID 19 as the source for the end of the world. Any doomsday cult is pointing to this pandemic and saying "I told you so!" I believe that's why some people refuse to follow social distancing and masks because they believe they are protected and are part of the selected few who will gather the faithful. (Since when are murderers and fraudsters considered the selected disciples of God?)

Mind you, if Chad and Lori's group truly believe Covid19 is the beginning of the end for anyone not on their 'saved' list, do hospitals legally have to offer emergency treatment to those (on the list who contracted COVID because they don't believe they need masks, gloves, six feet distance)?  

Or do all hospitals have to treat any member with COVID19 as an emergency even if they intentionally put themselves at risk? (I don't mean ill will, I am truly curious if medical professionals are mentally triaging based upon risk factors.) I also apologize if my writing doesn't make sense, it does in my head, honest... lol.

[Ellee]

Vallow/Daybill with a hidden bunker?  Interesting thought.  Any other screwballs I’d think maybe but someone would have come forward by now to talk about it. Not the screwballs — a normal person.   
 

Any chance Vallow has lost the day and month it is during her incarceration?  Any chance we could make her think it’s July 22nd?  I know I’m not alone in this — something, anything to bring these kids home. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

With enough money, and apparently the husband has plenty of money, you can do anything, and go anywhere.   Passports, and other issues can disappear with enough money.   

Yes, no one posted bail for her yet, but I read that no bail agency will take her case.   I thought that meant that the husband would have to post all of the money, but he hasn't.   Maybe he thinks he's safer with her in jail?    

I keep reading that the husband has a lot of money, and I wonder if it's hidden overseas?    

Edited May 16, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

With enough money, and apparently the husband has plenty of money, you can do anything, and go anywhere.   Passports, and other issues can disappear with enough money.   

He doesn’t have enough for her bail so he probably doesn’t have the kind of cash needed to disappear in the midst of a global pandemic with closed borders and mandatory quarantines.

[cooksdelight]

You don’t need a lot of money to hide out. Remember Eric Rudolph? He hid out here in the small mountain town where he lived, staying in cabins owned by Floridians in the winter (they never come up here until May-Oct)... lots of other places to hide out in the summer months. If Lori ever makes bail, you can kiss her goodbye.

[biakbiak]

23 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

You don’t need a lot of money to hide out. Remember Eric Rudolph? He hid out here in the small mountain town where he lived, staying in cabins owned by Floridians in the winter (they never come up here until May-Oct)... lots of other places to hide out in the summer months. If Lori ever makes bail, you can kiss her goodbye.

I was responding to the comments that they would flee to country without extradition treaties. And the supposed wealth of these people. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

Dateline: Finding Sarah Goode. 

Was this program done because I was supposed to be impressed with the out of control defying police instructions/ vigilante family who threatened death and roughed up every single person who came even remotely under their suspicion? Because I was repelled by these people. Absolutely repelled. It's a miracle they didn't hurt or kill someone in their pursuit of what I guess they consider 'justice'.  I don't care how upset they were, there's no excuse for this kind of vigilante behavior. I found myself hating them. Felt bad for the parents and the victim, but the siblings were repulsive.

[Annber03]

Yeah, I found it all quite off putting, too. Of course the family would want answers and want to be involved in the investigation and all that, totally understandable...but good lord, people, there's a reason the cops don't let family members hover around near potential crime scenes. It's for your own good as much as it is the investigators'. Back off and let them do their job. If they find something, or if they find your missing loved one, they will tell you. 

But yes, the cops didn't help matters, either. Intimidating and threatening potential suspects won't make the case get solved any faster. I was also getting really uncomfortable with the fact that all these white people were constantly scrutinizing this black guy that was in the neighborhood. Whether one thinks he's guilty or not, the way the townspeople were spying on him here and whatnot bothered me.

And then that neighbor. At one point when she was talking about some of the stuff she observed I actually said, "Okay, Gladys Kravitz." 

Yes, the public can be helpful to a case. Yes, the family will naturally want to help out and deserve answers*. But there is a right and wrong way to do all of that, and this all just felt way too overbearing and intense. 

*Another sign I watch too many true crime shows: the family talked about how they didn't suspect the ex-boyfriend right away 'cause he was helping out with the search, and I was like, "Yeah, that isn't always a good thing." :p. 

[iMonrey]

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

*Another sign I watch too many true crime shows: the family talked about how they didn't suspect the ex-boyfriend right away 'cause he was helping out with the search, and I was like, "Yeah, that isn't always a good thing." :p. 

Isn't it awful when you feel like you know more than the local police on these shows? Sometimes I find myself slapping my head and thinking "What's the matter with you people? Haven't you ever seen Dateline before?"

[biakbiak]

10 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

It's a miracle they didn't hurt or kill someone in their pursuit of what I guess they consider 'justice'.  I don't care how upset they were, there's no excuse for this kind of vigilante behavior. I found myself hating them. Felt bad for the parents and the victim, but the siblings were repulsive.

The friend Jason is lucky that he was in jail for two days when he was a suspect.

I had seen this when it originally aired and wasn’t going to watch because I didn’t like the family so much but nothing else was on so I watched while doing other things. Nearly all of the stories made Sarah sound like a spoiled brat. I don’t think they came off as the cute or endearing stories they usually shoot for with victims. This is in no way saying she deserved what happened to her just that she seemed to fit well into this annoying family.

Edited May 16, 2020 by biakbiak

[cooksdelight]

I was surprised Sarah drove a BMW. Did she work anywhere? Or was she the baby who got everything she wanted? Who was the father of her child, the ex-boyfriend? I hadn’t seen this before but I was apalled by the family as well. 

Why wasn’t the guy who was convicted on a suicide watch, having had made past attempts? Or at the very least, in the mental ward of the prison he was sent to.

[TVbitch]

The brother-in-law was hyper involved to the point it was weird. I only remembered I'd seen this one when he started talking about painting Sarah's nails. And his reaction after he found her body. WTF was that? 

Them putting signs all over the place during the trial could have derailed the whole thing.

 

 

[biakbiak]

25 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

I was surprised Sarah drove a BMW. Did she work anywhere? Or was she the baby who got everything she wanted? Who was the father of her child, the ex-boyfriend? I hadn’t seen this before but I was apalled by the family as well. 

 

It was a 15+ years old sold by a family friend. You can often pick them up for fairly cheap because they are so expensive to maintain because they were shittly made. 

The father of her kid wasn’t a suspect because he joined the military before their daughter was born so no longer in the area.

Edited May 16, 2020 by biakbiak

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

The brother-in-law was hyper involved to the point it was weird.

I hated how unapologetic he was about verbally and almost physically

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 

assaulting all of her male friends, almost like he was proud of it, despite most of them being innocent. "The court of Nick" is exactly right. 

Dante did have astoundingly beautiful eyes. It's weird how it's so hard for us to see past beauty to the real person underneath. 

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And then that neighbor. At one point when she was talking about some of the stuff she observed I actually said, "Okay, Gladys Kravitz.

😁😁😁😁😁😁

ETA, I just saw the last few minutes. The scene of him in the courtroom, with the judge's brutal words, followed by hearing of him being beaten by guards in prison then dying by suicide was utterly chilling. I do think he was guilty, and deserved prison, but it was still a horrifying conclusion. On the other hand, he probably would have gone on to victimize other women if free, so I guess it's for the best. All in all, a really tragic and depressing story from start to finish. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Melina22

[Court]

Like all of you, I was horrified by her siblings and brother in law. I wasn't impressed by them at all and wanted them off my screen. 

[Annber03]

Agreed with you all on the brother-in-law's behavior. It felt very...old-fashioned chauvinistic "Man must protect the little woman". And then he's getting all these other big bulky guys together, like they were his posse or something. It was very weird indeed. 

I also couldn't help being a little amused when Nick was talking about the guilt he felt over not being able to protect Sarah, and Andrea kept going on about he saw her the night she went missing, and he painted her nails for the evening out, and just kept on digging that knife in further about all the final things Nick had done with her right before she left that night...

...and then she's all, "It wasn't your fault." 

[Tabbygirl521]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Agreed with you all on the brother-in-law's behavior. It felt very...old-fashioned chauvinistic "Man must protect the little woman". And then he's getting all these other big bulky guys together, like they were his posse or something. It was very weird indeed. 

I also couldn't help being a little amused when Nick was talking about the guilt he felt over not being able to protect Sarah, and Andrea kept going on about he saw her the night she went missing, and he painted her nails for the evening out, and just kept on digging that knife in further about all the final things Nick had done with her right before she left that night...

...and then she's all, "It wasn't your fault." 

This was killing me. In spite of feeling for the family, I cringed at the way hey invaded the investigation. Andrea was kind of amazing here. 

[hookedontv]

Finding Sarah Goode:

I just watched this last night and it felt familiar so I must have seen it before. I am relieved to read all of your comments because I was horrified by the family's actions. I have never been in their position so I can't imagine the anger and sadness but come on. Show a little restraint. This huge family (and posse of huge guys) galavanting down to where Sarah's car was found, and circling it and refusing to leave. Let the cops do their jobs. You can't touch a crime scene. Yelling at the police. Ay yi yi. The BIL roughing up potential suspects. The family jumping out of their houses and following helicopters. I don't know if they expected us to find it "touching" or "loyal" or "close knit family" or whatever, but I was disgusted by it. I thought to myself "I would be mortified if that was how my family acted." 

The ONLY thing I was happy about with the family is that for the large gathering on the beach that celebrated Sarah's life, they tossed flowers into the ocean. I was SURE this was the kind of family that would release hundreds of balloons into the air, wreaking havoc on the environment and killing animals because of a selfish act (sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine and I had to comment about it.)  

Edited May 20, 2020 by hookedontv
typos

[hookedontv]

On 5/2/2020 at 8:22 PM, druzy said:

 

Back to the Vallow case for a moment: I really find it odd that there was no autopsy performed on Tammy Daybell. My BFF passed away suddenly  in her late 40's and the state medical examiner said the circumstances required an autopsy to be done. I would find it really odd if my friend's family blocked that or said they didn't want one -- they wanted to know why she passed away and frankly so did it.

I would think it would be a red flag to the medical examiner/law enforcement if a family declined/blocked an autopsy. This nut Chad maybe sprewed some religious reasons against it, but I still think that's a red flag. Maybe the show explained why one wasn't done and I missed it. Nonetheless, I'm glad her body was exhumed for testing. And yeh, put a rush on that, there's deaths and disappearances all around Chad & Lori. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Lori's mother and sister are pathetic.  Their denial insults my intelligence. When you hurt kids, NO ONE should defend you, not even your family members.  Update show:

https://www.nbc.com/dateline/video/what-happened-to-the-children/4158028

I worry that she will die in jail from covid and the children's whereabouts will never be known. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[Ellee]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1212831

How long before there is a Dateline show here?   
 

 

[iMonrey]

I hadn't seen the one about the vet in Montana before (Mystery in Big Sky Country). I think Tom Jaraczeski definitely got away with murder. 

[Ellee]

I watched that one this morning. I think he got away with murder too.  Felt bad for the woman involved as she still blames herself.  
 

I also watched the Bronx Tale where 6 people were released from jail after serving almost 20 years for murders they did not commit.  The focus of the show was on one man, Eric Glisson.  My thought on him was how in the world did he survive in jail so long and come out as a nice young man.  

[TVbitch]

The vet murder case was never gonna be solved the minute the bumbling local authorities trashed the crime scene. Too bad. 

I do think Tom did it, cuz he was aggressively irrational about his break-up, and, well, who the fuck else? Just don't believe his best friend (even if he was suicidally depressed) would go over there, break in, steal his gun, then come back and murder him for no reason. 

I will say, the defense team was excellent, and almost had me convinced. Was interesting to hear from the judge afterwards.

[Court]

21 hours ago, Ellee said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1212831

How long before there is a Dateline show here?   
 

 

I read this last night when you posted and side eyed the mom's story. Turns out she was arrested this morning for his death. 

[Melina22]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think Tom Jaraczeski definitely got away with murder. 

This is one of the only cases where even though I think he may have done it, I don't think he should have been convicted because the evidence just wasn't there. 

Also the lawyers made compelling points about the dog, and the victim apparently eating breakfast, not supper, just before his death. 

[biakbiak]

Yeah between the dog, the lack of steak and the presence of eggs in his stomach I don’t think he did it and definitely couldn’t have convicted him and lean toward innocent. Also, the stories that Larry told others definitely makes him a viable suspect to me.

Edited May 23, 2020 by biakbiak

[JeezumCrow]

3 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Yeah between the dog, the lack of steak and the presence of eggs in his stomach I don’t think he did it and definitely couldn’t have convicted him and lean toward innocent. Also, the stories that Larry told others definitely makes him a viable suspect to me.

I also ended up feeding that Larry was the culprit - since they liked to play up how the vet may have been a ladies’ man, I wondered if he was having some kind of relationship with Larry’s wife, or that perhaps Larry thought as much since his wife was leaving/left him. Even if that is way off base, I definitely agree that the case presented to us did not have evidence for a murder conviction for Tom, in all his crazy stalker glory. 

[Annber03]

18 hours ago, Melina22 said:

This is one of the only cases where even though I think he may have done it, I don't think he should have been convicted because the evidence just wasn't there. 

Also the lawyers made compelling points about the dog, and the victim apparently eating breakfast, not supper, just before his death. 

This is how I feel, too. I think people tend to forget that sometimes when a jury says "Not guilty"-that doesn't necessarily mean they think the defendant couldn't have done it or didn't do it, it just means that there wasn't enough evidence to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt. And yes, when you completely screw around with a crime scene, unfortunately, you make it a lot harder to convict somebody as a result, even if there's plenty of valid reason to suspect them.

14 hours ago, JeezumCrow said:

I also ended up feeding that Larry was the culprit - since they liked to play up how the vet may have been a ladies’ man, I wondered if he was having some kind of relationship with Larry’s wife, or that perhaps Larry thought as much since his wife was leaving/left him. Even if that is way off base, I definitely agree that the case presented to us did not have evidence for a murder conviction for Tom, in all his crazy stalker glory. 

Another area where I felt the investigators fell down on the job-if there was this talk of the vet being a ladies' man, why not, I dunno, go around and ask more of the townspeople what they knew? This was a really small town, after all, so I find it very hard to believe the townspeople wouldn't have some stories and gossip to share, be it about some woman's boyfriend threatening him the way Tom did*, or about some woman he was dating being pissed upon finding out she wasn't the only one he was seeing, or things of that sort. 

I totally get why they focused so much on Tom, of course, 'cause the guy's behavior was WAY over the top and creepy (and his comment about how he didn't want his girlfriend seeing this guy because he was a vet and might give her drugs-WTF?). But I do also agree that they didn't seem to consider any other potential angles and suspects all that much. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Annber03

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

This was a really small town, after all, so I find it very hard to believe the townspeople wouldn't have some stories and gossip to share, be it about some woman's boyfriend threatening him the way Tom did*, or about some woman he was dating being pissed upon finding out she wasn't the only one he was seeing, or things of that sort. 

Or try to find the woman he must have had sex with during his last 24-48 hours who had left DNA in his underwear.

[amarante]

The stalking boyfriend murdered the vet logically.

However, if I were on the jury I would have acquitted, albeit reluctantly, since the standard of proof was beyond a reasonable doubt.

I actually didn't think the lack of steak was dispositive since I think it likely that a guy would have made a late easy meal of eggs. However, the prosecution (at least from what was aired) failed to provide a reasonable explanation for the lack of dog feces. That would have been dispositive for me unless some kind of egress from the trailer was shown.

[biakbiak]

4 hours ago, amarante said:

actually didn't think the lack of steak was dispositive since I think it likely that a guy would have made a late easy meal of eggs. Ho

Even if he ate the eggs late at night though there is no evidence of that other than his sister said it wouldn’t be out of character for him to make a late night snack that would have no bearing on the steak not being there. He would just have both. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by biakbiak

[amarante]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

Even if he ate the eggs late at night though there is no evidence of that other than his sister said it wouldn’t be out of character for him to make a late night snack that would have no bearing on the steak not being there. He would just have both. 

I could discount the old guy remembering that the vet had eaten steak on a specific night many years prior to his testimony. That kind of testimony is notoriously unreliable.

However, per my original post, I think he was guilty but I don't think is was proven beyond a reasonable doubt - he was legally not guilty but he wasn't innocent. 

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, amarante said:

I could discount the old guy remembering that the vet had eaten steak on a specific night many years prior to his testimony. That kind of testimony is notoriously unreliable.

But he and others (they just showed his testimony) remembered it not just years after but a few days after when they were first investigating his murder and trying to figure out the timeline of the last people who saw him alive. 

[Ellee]

I watched an old Dr Phil this morning. Boy would I love to see someone go after these two and Codey’s mother.  
 

https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/crime/2019/02/14/couple-ties-republic-death-investigation-arrested-oklahoma/2860016002/

 

[CraftyHazel]

I actually believe that Tom might be innocent, but even if not, the prosecution sure didn’t prove him guilty.  There are just too many issues wrt timeline, dog, lack of physical evidence, and stomach contents.  I could never vote to convict.

[JudyObscure]

I think Tom might be innocent, too. All that stalking business might just have been immature behavior by a very young guy in a tiny town where there's nothing else to do but obsess over the one semi-pretty girl.  In a bigger town his buddies would have taken him clubbing and he would have had other interests in no time.

I looked at my husband half way through this and said, "We'd be hot in Geraldine."  If you could see us you would know how funny that is.

[iMonrey]

Saw the repeat of "Before Midnight" about Pam Zimmerman on Friday. I think her ex husband got away with murder. When the victim tells people "if something ever happens to me, he did it," and then something happens to them . . . well,  you do the math. Too bad the jury wasn't allowed to hear it. 

One thing's for sure, she had lousy taste in men. The new fiance seemed like a jerk too. Also, her ex husband's brother was just as creepy as her ex husband.

[TVbitch]

There just isn't anyone else who would murder Pam execution style like that. It was clearly not a robbery with her wallet and phone just discarded.  And a client would not shoot their financial advisor during a scheduled meeting, that is just stupid. 

The kids were so sure it wasn't Dad. Really? Not even a doubt? That creeps me out, too.  

OT: I've been watching some of the UK's "Catching a Killer" series. It's very interesting to see how differently they go about interrogating suspects in the UK. They basically share every detail they learn. No lying, no shouting, no accusations.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

The kids were so sure it wasn't Dad. Really? Not even a doubt? That creeps me out, too.  

We've seen this before, in children of murderers. All they see is a loving and devoted father, they can't see him as anything else. They are hardly objective. Then there's the fact that they have just lost their mother. Their brains won't allow them to accept the possibility their father might be responsible, or that they might lose him next.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I've seen the adult kids, even on a slam dunk case, stick with the parent that tried to kill, or did kill the spouse.     I remember the horrific case where the husband hired someone to kill his wife, the hit man shot her in the head, and she survived, but barely.    The husband was found guilty, and all three of the adult kids supported the father, and cut the mother off because she cooperated with authorities.     All three actually pressured her to refuse to testify against him.  

The wife also was royally screwed in the divorce, and while she's barely surviving, the kids are still supporting the father.   The man was lucky to get life in prison, because if you hire a hitman in Texas, they usually execute you (they used to call collect you and fry you, now it's collect, and eject).   

Nancy Howard was the victim, and Frank Howard was the husband.   He was charged with embezzling from the company he worked for, to finance many purchases for his mistress of three year. The son actually spoke at the sentencing asking for leniency for his father. 

A lot of the embezzled money went for expensive homes, and vacation places for the mistress.  He paid for her daughter's college, hired both mother and daughter (they didn't actually work) at the company he worked for, so they had health insurance, and other benefits.    A big chunk also went to his church, and even though they were informed where the money came from, they refused to give it back.   I don't know what happened with that case, but it is alleged that Howard donated over $200k of the embezzled money to the church.   Also, the company sued the mistress for the funds Howard embezzled to buy her well over $1 million worth of property.  

Edited May 31, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Tabbygirl521]

5 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I've seen the adult kids, even on a slam dunk case, stick with the parent that tried to kill, or did kill the spouse.     I remember the horrific case where the husband hired someone to kill his wife, the hit man shot her in the head, and she survived, but barely.    The husband was found guilty, and all three of the adult kids supported the father, and cut the mother off because she cooperated with authorities.     All three actually pressured her to refuse to testify against him.  

Oh yes. Isn’t that the case where Dad, naturally, had a girlfriend, and when one of the daughters recounted this on screen she acted all giggly and “Dad! That’s not cool!”  Ugh. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Tabbygirl521

[thejuicer]

I remember that case with the Howards.  The two adult daughters when asked about the murder for hire plot said something like "Only an animal would do that, and our father isn't an animal, so he didn't do it." So wrong, so stupid. Guess money talks. 

[cooksdelight]

https://www.crimeonline.com/2020/06/09/breaking-human-remains-may-have-been-found-at-chad-daybell-residence-reports/?fbclid=IwAR3wtYjQwSWvGPvpduGfubz5DfYFYO95fMyvh__ntSbBKqeuksWrM0VysY8