All Episodes Discussion

[JudyObscure]

11 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Toni Fratto is one ugly girl. 

And I don’t believe a word coming out of her mouth.

Another case of me wanting to ask the police what took them so long.  Everyone talked about how controlling Toni was, pushing Kody to do this and do that,  and the coroner had said that a face slashed up in the victim usually meant a particular kind of hatred.  Who would want to cut up the face of a pretty girl most?  A boy who had always been friends with her or his jealous girlfriend who was much less pretty?  Yet Keith said they hadn't looked at Toni at all until Kody's father brought her in.  Hello?

Toni's poor deluded, naïve parents. Thinking Toni could never have done such a thing because she always went to church with them.  Bless their hearts.

ETA: This reminded me of the Diane Zamora case.  The star student  who made her boyfriend kill her rival to prove his love.  Note to detectives:  When you're wondering why a teen age boy would kill someone, check who's holding the pussy whip.

Edited June 2, 2019 by JudyObscure

[UsernameFatigue]

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I actually thought myself that he must have recognized them.   I did not think it was self-importance on their part.  If you had committed a murder and were hiding it for 25 years, you'd probably know all the details from the time, the TV news broadcasts, interviews with friends.  It would stick in your mind who these people were.  He was obviously one cool cucumber.

As for Dagger, yeah, I guessed he was married when they first described the relationship.  I agree, she was probably hiding it from her friends bc she was embarrassed.  She probably had had enough and coincidentally broke up with him about that time.  Then he came looking for her that day--odd.  It was no surprise that she had never brought him around the school. 

I still don't understand though why he would recognize the friend 20 some years later? Quite possibly she was going by another surname, or may not have even given him her surname if she was just inquiring about hiring him (didn't sound like she actually did hire him). Were the friends in the media that often when she was killed, complete with full names? Seems odd to me.

I think Christy had enough because Dagger moved hundreds of miles away, with his wife, which is where he was the morning she was killed. How likely is it the relationship would have continued for any length of time after the move? I still think that it is possible that had he not moved, she would still have been with him. I think the friends were trying to sugar coat things, but since they supposedly didn't even know he was married, they only know for sure the version that Christy gave them. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by UsernameFatigue

[iMonrey]

Quote

Frankly, we don’t know what she said. Whatever it was didn’t merit death.

Clearly it did, in his mind. I take your point that we don't actually know what happened. The way the victim's friends characterized her behavior at the clubs suggested she was maybe a bit of a flirt. I don't know what else "she liked to draw attention to herself" might mean. And that she "had no trouble telling guys to get lost" also suggests she might have been rather aloof. So you flirt with the wrong guy, then tell him to get lost, well, see what happened to her. 

That said, we may be reading an awful lot into this.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

If you had committed a murder and were hiding it for 25 years, you'd probably know all the details from the time, the TV news broadcasts, interviews with friends.  It would stick in your mind who these people were.  He was obviously one cool cucumber.

That’s making a ton of assumptions about his behavior based on absolutely nothing that was presented. We know nothing about him or if he consumed the media (which was extremely different back in 1992) about the case or maybe he just compartmentalized and went about his life. According to them the friends never met them in real life so making that connection decades later is a huge leap on her part in my opinion.

[talktoomuch]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Another case of me wanting to ask the police what took them so long.  Everyone talked about how controlling Toni was, pushing Kody to do this and do that,  and the coroner had said that a face slashed up in the victim usually meant a particular kind of hatred.  Who would want to cut up the face of a pretty girl most?  A boy who had always been friends with her or his jealous girlfriend who was much less pretty?  Yet Keith said they hadn't looked at Toni at all until Kody's father brought her in.  Hello?

Toni's poor deluded, naïve parents. Thinking Toni could never have done such a thing because she always went to church with them.  Bless their hearts.

ETA: This reminded me of the Diane Zamora case.  The star student  who made her boyfriend kill her rival to prove his love.  Note to detectives:  When you're wondering why a teen age boy would kill someone, check who's holding the pussy whip.

It never ceases to amaze me how many dumb ass, weak-willed, pussy whipped men there are in the world who are so willing to take another person's life just because some manipulative, jealous chick convinced them to.

[car54]

Aw, this is adorable.

[OpalNightstream]

Toni’s parents were all kinds of strange. Obviously living in denial but I also found their constant talking over each other weird. Clearly Toni was their entire lives and there’s no way they will ever see her as anything but their innocent little princess. Not to mention she always reminded me of Larry the cucumber. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by OpalNightstream

[cathy7304]

8 hours ago, car54 said:

Aw, this is adorable.

Best thing I've seen all day!

[walnutqueen]

3 hours ago, cathy7304 said:

Best thing I've seen all day!

Best thing I've seen all year!

[JudyObscure]

I love Bill Hader, he always seems like he just took a big drag of the laughing gas, but his impressions are great. He does a bunch of the Dateline crew here. Starting at about 2:40.

Edited June 3, 2019 by JudyObscure

[OpalNightstream]

On 6/1/2019 at 6:02 PM, biakbiak said:

I take that as a turn of phrase not a literal quote. 

Yes but it could be a turn of phrase in either direction—either she have been kinder with a simple “no thanks” or maybe she was even ruder with a “ew I don’t think so”. Who knows?

[iMonrey]

Quote

I love Bill Hader, he always seems like he just took a big drag of the laughing gas, but his impressions are great. He does a bunch of the Dateline crew here. Starting at about 2:40.

I don't actually think his impression of Morrison is very good. He just has a funny take on Morrison's seeming enjoyment of the subject matter. It's a fun parody but not a biting one. Nice to know what a good sport Morrison is about it. I do get the impression that Hader is a true fan of the show.

[LittleIggy]

6/7/19 episode: I got distracted and missed the evidence the prosecution had against the guy who was convicted. What was it? The tall guy whose pubic hair (!) was found on the survivor looked exactly like the drawing made from her description.

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

6/7/19 episode: I got distracted and missed the evidence the prosecution had against the guy who was convicted. What was it? The tall guy whose pubic hair (!) was found on the survivor looked exactly like the drawing made from her description.

His gun and shell casings when he was arrested in Utah matched to the murder weapon according to the police analysis.  He also had a underarm gloves that matched her description. In addition the letter sent to the father that had details of the murder was on his computer. 

[LittleIggy]

10 hours ago, biakbiak said:

His gun and shell casings when he was arrested in Utah matched to the murder weapon according to the police analysis.  He also had a underarm gloves that matched her description. In addition the letter sent to the father that had details of the murder was on his computer. 

Thanks!

[iMonrey]

Wow. I have no idea what to make of "The Overlook." On paper all the evidence points to Dylan Spellman (SP?). Except that Kristene is so sure it wasn't him, and it's hard to argue that she wouldn't have realized this guy was almost 8' tall. Is it possible she is misremembering because of her brain injury? She seemed pretty competent to me. In fact her recovery is nothing short of miraculous. I don't know, the whole thing is so bizarre. I wanted to hear more about David Strickland and whether or not he had any kind of criminal background. I know he stole his roommate's gun but aside from that they didn't elaborate on whether he'd had any history of violence.

I couldn't get past the part about the letter he sent to Kristene's father, which the AG claims had info that would have been known only to the killer. But Strickland's attorney claims there's all sort of misinformation it that letter, so it's a case of he-said she-said. I don't know which one to believe.

Edited June 8, 2019 by iMonrey

[biakbiak]

29 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I know he stole his roommate's gun but aside from that they didn't elaborate on whether he'd had any history of violence.

I couldn't get past the part about the letter he sent to Kristene's father, which the AG claims had info that would have been known only to the killer. But Strickland's attorney claims there's all sort of misinformation it that letter, so it's a case of he-said she-said. I don't know which one to believe.

They said he didn’t have a history of violence.

Yeah it was hard to come to a conclusion on this because it was all back and forth, the police said the gun analysis showed it was his gun and the defense said it wasn’t conclusive, the defense said the hair found was a pubic hair and the prosecutor stated he had seen nothing that indicated it was a pubic hair so it was all inconclusive.

I wasn’t convinced by the lawyer saying he got things wrong in the letter because even guilty people have done things like that to plant confusion. The thing that was explicitly stated was the calling them by girl 1 and girl 2 if that wasn’t out there which to me it seems like the police would hold back I don’t see how he could have arrived at that on his own to put in the letter.

The height was also of course a big thing He is 6’8”- 6’10” his size is going to be noted even if he is walking ahead of you on an incline and she insists that they first saw him when they were standing on flat ground. 

Strickland also came forward and talked to the police about the case inserting himself which I also find suspicious. 

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

The height was also of course a big thing He is 6’8”- 6’10” his size is going to be noted even if he is walking ahead of you on an incline and she insists that they first saw him when they were standing on flat ground. 

This. I'm 5'6" and I guarantee you that even if a guy who's between 6'8" and 6'10" is walking down a slope in front of me, I'm still going to notice how tall he is. That's a height that is definitely going to stick out no matter where the guy's standing. 

And whether the letter had details of the case or not in it, the fact remains that it was still on Strickland's computer, which is very odd and suspicious. That seems to leave two options here: either he heard the story in the news and wanted attention/wanted to play a very sick joke on Kristiene's dad, or he's involved. 

Quote

Strickland also came forward and talked to the police about the case inserting himself which I also find suspicious. 

And there's this, too. Yep. That whole "inserting himself" thing is exactly what came to my mind as well. 

All of that being said, however, if that is indeed a pubic hair found on her body, then yes, that's quite suspicious, too. The guy trying to explain all the ways that a pubic hair can just randomly appear on the beach like that was weird-"wearing shorts"? Okay...

Very strange case, indeed. I feel for Kristiene, feeling like she can't fully move on because of all of this. I admire her bravery and her strength in working to get better (seriously, it's amazing what the human body can withstand sometimes) and taking the stand at trial and everything. Whatever happens with the case going forward, I wish her well, and I hope she can finally get the justice and closure she's seeking. 

[TVbitch]

This was a rerun with an update, yes? 

It's a shame that Christine could not pick the guy out of a line up. She saw him and was able to work with the sketch artist to make the picture, but she couldn't ID him. That must be so frustrating for her. 

[Stampiron]

Random info from various articles relating to some of the above comments:

- Re The gun ballistics: Different articles use different language. Some say the shell casings matched Strickland's gun, others say they were deemed "a likely match." 

- Re How Strickland could know details of the case if he wasn't involved:

Quote

Former Portland detective Aaron Veuleman was fired after he told the author helping Chapa write a book, Chivas Sandage, information about the case. Veuleman told Sandage in an email he knew he was "doing the right thing by helping you."

Officials also believe Laura Strickland, the suspect's wife, learned confidential information from Veuleman's wife. The two worked at a Chili's together. Laura Strickland was arrested in 2014 for tampering with evidence, a charge that was later dismissed.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Jury-hears-letter-during-trial-of-Helotes-man-9239295.php

This was interesting:

Quote

According to the affidavit, Strickland currently faces felony charges in Utah for burglarizing the accused man's home. He was arrested in Utah in early 2014 by the Layton Police Department. Evidence seized from his vehicle was given to the Portland Police Department after it was determined to be of value to their homicide investigation.

Included in that evidence was: a Glock .45 firearm and magazines; a Kimber .45 firearm and magazines; an after-market barrel and suppressor; Underarmor gloves; Federal .45 auto ammunition; and a backpack containing a condom, personal lubricant[?!!], flex handcuffs, an expandable baton, bolt cutters, pepper spray, a head lamp, an Underarmor glove, a knife, handcuffs, firearms holsters, a lock pick kit, chemical lights, a tourniquet and a magnesium fire starter.

Inserting himself into the case:

Quote

According to the affidavit, just five days after the 2012 shootings at Violet Andrews Park, Strickland went to the Portland Police Department on his own volition to provide information, telling police that he had been transferring guns from his car to his home in Portland when he spotted a white passenger car driving down East Bayview the night of the shootings.

That same day, Strickland approached a group of people at the crime scene who were in mourning, telling them that Laura, his girlfriend at the time, knew one of the victims. A witness there said that Strickland was searching the grass near the crime scene.

https://www.kiiitv.com/article/news/arrest-affidavit-details-link-between-david-strickland-portland-shootings/273941061

- One other detail mentioned in the episode that seemed really odd: While being questioned by police, Spellman (the guy who the public hair was matched to) asked about a potential plea deal. That seems really, really strange to me. Who would ask about a plea to a murder they didn't commit? I mean sure there are plenty of examples of people confessing to crimes they didn't commit, but that tends to come after long, grueling interrogations or when the police convince an unsophisticated suspect that they have no other option. We didn't really get any details about Spellman's questioning, but it didn't seem like it was that kind of situation.

----

I guess it's possible that Strickland originally inserted himself into the case just because he's a weirdo who gets off on that kind of stuff, then two years later decided to use the case to get the guy in Utah who he was in conflict with - and there's zero doubt that he wrote the letter -, but the equipment that was found in his possession - guns, silencer, zip ties, gloves, etc... - is straight out of the Serial Killer Handbook. Whether or not he did it - and I tend to think he did - I think society's better off with Strickland off the street.

I do wish Dateline had spent less time on the victim and more time on the suspects. Aside from their criminal records, I don't feel like I know anything about them. Maybe nobody who knew them was willing to do an interview, but if that's the case they should say that they at least tried.

[sskrill]

The Teaneck NJ Asian husband from Manhattan thing ...

So the husband was convicted because he possibly owned a gun of the same caliber, and he deleted data from his computer the night of the murder?  

I was doing laundry so I missed whether they ever confirmed he owned  a gun or not.  Did they only think he owned one because of the wife, and the email to the friend in TX about the magazine?  Was one registered to him?

I don't necessarily think the guy was innocent, but if I had been on that jury I don't think I could have convicted.

It's just hard to believe he would have gone there several times before and had cordial conversations with the man, then a year later returned to kill him.

[iMonrey]

Quote

All of that being said, however, if that is indeed a pubic hair found on her body, then yes, that's quite suspicious, too. 

We know the victim was raped, so it's likely her body came into contact with the ground. Meaning anything lying on the ground could have stuck to her. Whether or not the hair was pubic seems to be a matter of opinion. 

Still, the fact that Spellman had committed another crime where he had called the victims by number is eerily coincidental. 

It makes me wonder if, somehow, both men were involved/guilty.

[Ohmo]

On 6/1/2019 at 10:25 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

How strange that none of her friends knew that her long time boyfriend was married.

I finally got around to watching this episode.  Christy might have thought it was just easier keeping this information to herself.  This was 1992, and she was a 25-year-old school teacher in what appeared to be a very conservative area.  I was subbing at 25 and got my first classroom at 28.  When I was subbing, I traded and heard plenty of stories where teachers would be at the store and either not buy beer or put the beer back if they saw one of their students at the store.  You check what you're wearing (or you forget to) and see a student.  Stuff like that.

That isn't exactly what happened here, but when you teach, there are two sides to you.  Your teacher side and the rest of you.  If Christy was dating a 45-year-old man, and she was 25, that's probably not something she emphasized publicly, so I can see that also kind of bleeding into her friends.  You don't want that to become common knowledge at work, and rather than think about who you want to know and who you don't, you just keep it to yourself.  This is especially true if you live in the district where you teach, and I've known many teachers who purposely do not live where they teach so they have some separation and don't have to compartmentalize who knows what, who those people might know, and how that information might travel, even in the most innocent of ways.

[UsernameFatigue]

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I finally got around to watching this episode.  Christy might have thought it was just easier keeping this information to herself.  This was 1992, and she was a 25-year-old school teacher in what appeared to be a very conservative area.  I was subbing at 25 and got my first classroom at 28.  When I was subbing, I traded and heard plenty of stories where teachers would be at the store and either not buy beer or put the beer back if they saw one of their students at the store.  You check what you're wearing (or you forget to) and see a student.  Stuff like that.

That isn't exactly what happened here, but when you teach, there are two sides to you.  Your teacher side and the rest of you.  If Christy was dating a 45-year-old man, and she was 25, that's probably not something she emphasized publicly, so I can see that also kind of bleeding into her friends.  You don't want that to become common knowledge at work, and rather than think about who you want to know and who you don't, you just keep it to yourself.  This is especially true if you live in the district where you teach, and I've known many teachers who purposely do not live where they teach so they have some separation and don't have to compartmentalize who knows what, who those people might know, and how that information might travel, even in the most innocent of ways.

You could be right about why Christy kept her affair a secret from her friends. though I thought the friends they interviewed were ones from her own university years before she started teaching, rather than fellow teachers. I could be mis remembering though. 

While it certainly makes sense that she would want to keep an affair with a much older married man a secret, I can't say that I find your description of teachers in general to be my experience. I am not a teacher, but have a dozen relatives/in laws/long time friends who are. They are all pretty open with their lives, and most teach and work in the same city/town, if not even in the same area of that city/town. Most are even on Facebook under their own names, and share their lives freely. I only have one friend who never joined Facebook as she did not want her personal life on it. I told her to use an alias, as has my nephew in law who uses a combo of his nickname and last name. But in general, they do not alter their lives or who they are because they are teachers. But then again, (as far as I know - lol) none are in long time affairs with married people. 

[Ohmo]

23 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

While it certainly makes sense that she would want to keep an affair with a much older married man a secret, I can't say that I find your description of teachers in general to be my experience. I am not a teacher, but have a dozen relatives/in laws/long time friends who are.

I think it's like anything else.  It depends on where you are.  Some areas are more conservative than others.  I'm a bit younger than Christy, but I was subbing in the mid-90s, roughly about the same time period that Christy was in the classroom. The beer story I mentioned also came from that time period, courtesy of a middle-school science teacher who I worked with.

I'm not in the classroom now, so I can't speak to the whole Facebook angle.  It either didn't exist or was in its infancy when I was teaching.  That's also like everything else.  I've heard of teachers who use Facebook with no issues whatsoever, and I've also heard of teachers who have gotten themselves into real professional trouble because of Facebook.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Ohmo

[Irlandesa]

I'm glad I finally got to see the Green Bay Fit Bit story. Whenever it ran on USA, it was actually a different episode. 

It was one of those instances where I was kind of disappointed it wasn't the husband/boyfriend.  Even though I'm glad they got the real killer, I feel like the boyfriend should have equally gone to jail just for being an asshole.

[sskrill]

The David Hawk case .. Keith might want to keep up on Hawks parole hearings based on that last interaction.

[TVbitch]

That Fit Bit episode was weird. Rarely is an episode filled with so many unlikeable people. Even those friends. Who gets THAT made up to talk about your closest friend's murder? I mean, do you really need false eyelashes for that?* And what is with all those people at the concert and bar who just let this woman stumble off drunk, alone, and upset. 

*It must be noted Andrea Canning's make up was super heavy in much of this episode too. Maybe they had an unfortunate make up person but some of the other women did not have a pageant appearance. 

[saber5055]

2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

*It must be noted Andrea Canning's make up was super heavy in much of this episode too. Maybe they had an unfortunate make up person but some of the other women did not have a pageant appearance.  

This strikes home for me since I just got my first HDTV and now all I can see is the heavy makeup and super-sprayed hair and spider eyelashes. Even some of the men are wearing eye shadow. It's fascinating. Anyway, about the Green Bay episode ...

During the court section, all I could think was, compare the boyfriend to the guy they convicted and there would be no doubt in a jury's mind as to which was the bad guy just based on looks. No evidence needed. I guess that's why Ted Bundy got away with so much for so long, he didn't LOOK like a serial killer.

I thought the made-up story was a pretty good one though. The facts just didn't support it. And yeah, the boyfriend was a real jackass. Does he keep his child? Or does the murdered woman's family raise him now?

I liked the killer's girlfriend going from "he's the sweetest guy" to "I'm so lucky I got away from that psycho."

Maybe I was concentrating too much on eyeshadow, but weren't bloody tissues found inside the boyfriend's house? And some of the boyfriend's clothes with blood on them? And shoes with "red spots" on the soles? If so, what happened to that evidence? This show always makes viewers believe one person is guilty w/o a doubt, then they switch it up at the end so it's someone else. If we are so easily tricked, I guess lawyers can do the same to juries.

I do wonder why a new mom who is breastfeeding would stay out SO LONG and get so drunk. Even if she wasn't murdered, 3 a.m. is pretty late to be coming in when you have a newborn. Her baby could get a hangover from nursing. *lightning strikes me*

[Tabbygirl521]

25 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

This strikes home for me since I just got my first HDTV and now all I can see is the heavy makeup and super-sprayed hair and spider eyelashes. Even some of the men are wearing eye shadow. It's fascinating. Anyway, about the Green Bay episode ...

During the court section, all I could think was, compare the boyfriend to the guy they convicted and there would be no doubt in a jury's mind as to which was the bad guy just based on looks. No evidence needed. I guess that's why Ted Bundy got away with so much for so long, he didn't LOOK like a serial killer.

I thought the made-up story was a pretty good one though. The facts just didn't support it. And yeah, the boyfriend was a real jackass. Does he keep his child? Or does the murdered woman's family raise him now?

I liked the killer's girlfriend going from "he's the sweetest guy" to "I'm so lucky I got away from that psycho."

Maybe I was concentrating too much on eyeshadow, but weren't bloody tissues found inside the boyfriend's house? And some of the boyfriend's clothes with blood on them? And shoes with "red spots" on the soles? If so, what happened to that evidence? This show always makes viewers believe one person is guilty w/o a doubt, then they switch it up at the end so it's someone else. If we are so easily tricked, I guess lawyers can do the same to juries.

I do wonder why a new mom who is breastfeeding would stay out SO LONG and get so drunk. Even if she wasn't murdered, 3 a.m. is pretty late to be coming in when you have a newborn. Her baby could get a hangover from nursing. *lightning strikes me*

I have those same questions about a nursing mom. I get the need to get out of the house sometimes but this evening out seemed a little odd and, frankly, unpleasant. Before the murder, I mean!

Edited June 10, 2019 by Tabbygirl521

[Tabbygirl521]

 Dp

Edited June 10, 2019 by Tabbygirl521

[walnutqueen]

So, Charles Merritt has just been convicted of murdering the McStay family.  Penalty phase of the trial starts tomorrow.

For those who need a reminder, the McStays mysteriously disappeared from their Fallbrook CA home in 2010.  Their vehicle was found near the Mexican border.  Their remains (Dad, Mom & 2 young boys) were found buried in the desert in 2013, along with the sledgehammer allegedly used to bludgeon them all.  Merritt was the husband's business partner, who stole business funds before and after their disappearance.

[walnutqueen]

Just watched last night's episode "She Did Everything Right" about Lauren McCluskey's murder at the University of Utah.  Once again, the campus police dropped the ball.  Parents should be very concerned about the culture of campus cops, since even those who are sworn police officers seem to adhere to different standards of policing.

[saber5055]

"She Did Everything Right" should have been titled "They Did Everything Wrong" about both police departments. If I were Lauren's parent, I would sue the ass off of both departments for their do-nothing approach to multiple very real problems Lauren reported.

Meanwhile, it's nice to know anyone can bring a gun to class at any Utah school, and that the police officer who was DOING HIS JOB by taking Lauren to her car is getting an award for doing that. I guess getting off his butt was a major achievement for any officer in that department. So, well done sir. Here's your award.

[TVbitch]

Poor Lauren. Being stalked and menaced is such a helpless feeling. It happened to me in college and I was so scared I went home. The cops attitude was that it was just "boyfriend drama". Ummm, even if that was true, who murders the women most of the time --the boyfriend or the ex! 

[LisainCali]

This is a horrible story.  This is one of the calmest, evenly spoken girl I’ve ever heard.  She must have been terrified, yet she reported these worries to the police in such a calm and measured tone...maybe the police didn’t listen to her.  And compared to the father, Lauren is a drama queen.  🙄  

not only the campus police, but the SLC actual police department didn’t help at all.  She kept telling them that the University police were doing nothing to help and they kept referring her back to the campus cops.  Same with her father.

My impression is that the campus cops were “real” cops, not security guards.  I can’t imagine what kind of cop would just ignore a terrified student.  

A lovely, talented young lady from a sweet and caring family.  So sad.  

[iMonrey]

Not much of a mystery in "She did everything right." More of a "sucks to be you" story than anything else.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Meanwhile, it's nice to know anyone can bring a gun to class at any Utah school, and that the police officer who was DOING HIS JOB by taking Lauren to her car is getting an award for doing that. I guess getting off his butt was a major achievement for any officer in that department. So, well done sir. Here's your award.

Right? And when they talked about how the campus got the "active shooter" notification, I can just imagine what those students must've been thinking, given all the recent stories about mass shootings on campuses. So not only was Lauren's life in danger, this creep could've put other students at risk as well. Great job, university staff! How many more times do students have to go through this kind of nightmarish shit before people finally decide that hey, maybe we should change things so students can feel safe at school? Why are the people in charge constantly falling down on this issue? It's insane.

"Hindsight is always 20/20." I'd love for the lady who said that to tell that to Lauren's parents, see how they respond. 

2 hours ago, LisainCali said:

not only the campus police, but the SLC actual police department didn’t help at all.  She kept telling them that the University police were doing nothing to help and they kept referring her back to the campus cops.  Same with her father.

Seriously, after, like, the second time that referring her back to the campus police was proven not to work, you'd think that might've tipped off the city police and made them think, "You know, maybe we should get more involved." I know they talked about jurisdiction issues, but I find it very hard to believe there wasn't something more they could've done to help with this situation.

The "it's a scam" bit drove me bonkers, too. First off, if this really were a scam, wouldn't they be getting numerous complaints from other students, including her ex-boyfriend? Didn't hear any mention of that happening. Second, even if there was a scam of that sort floating around out there, the fact remained that in this particular case, Lauren clearly did not think that's what was happening, and the fact she and her parents kept trying to report her concerns should've been a massive clue that there was a serious problem. 

I'd also really like to know why in the hell this guy was even out of jail in the first place, considering his crime involved a minor and he didn't obey the laws regarding his parole not once, but twice. And clearly the bar where he worked didn't do enough regarding a background check on him as well, so they should be held accountable, too. 

Just. Yeah. This story made me want to flip a damn table. And the sad part is, Lauren's story isn't unique. Women get lectured all the time about all the things we need to do to keep ourselves safe, and this is what we get for actually trying to follow those suggestions. How about doing more to lecture men on how to treat women? How about having more serious punishments in place for guys who think they can harass and abuse women like this? Novel concept, I know. 

My heart broke for Lauren's parents. Her mother hearing the attack over the phone...I can't imagine. I felt for Diamond, too. She was a hell of a lot more supportive towards and concerned about her friend than the people who were supposed to do their jobs, so I hope she can take some comfort in that fact. I liked the way Mankiewicz tried to reassure her. 

(Regarding the lack of information regarding relationship violence, I don't know how big an influence the LDS church is in Salt Lake City, but I couldn't help wondering if that was something of a factor in people's attitudes here, too. I've heard about how backwards that church can be when it comes to protecting women in regards to those issues, and I can easily see that attitude permeating other facets of people's lives as well.) 

[saber5055]

33 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

How about doing more to lecture men on how to treat women? How about having more serious punishments in place for guys who think they can harass and abuse women like this? Novel concept, I know. 

Or how about hiring police and training police to actually PROTECT the people they are hired to protect, and teach them/train them to do their frigging jobs.

It was common when riding my 10-speed in town that I would be smacked on the rear end by some smartass guy hanging out of his car window. One time I got the license number and rode directly to the police station to report it. The police MAN behind the counter just laughed at me and said that's just a "guy thing" and to forget it, guys do that "all the time," he said. When I was alone on a country road and that happened, I stopped and picked up a bunch of rocks that I put in my bike jersey pocket, I was going to rock the car if it came back. It didn't, so end of that story.

33 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Regarding the lack of information regarding relationship violence, I don't know how big an influence the LDS church is in Salt Lake City, but I couldn't help wondering if that was something of a factor in people's attitudes here, too.

This totally went through my mind as well, and I couldn't help but think Lauren's parents were LDS.

This was one Dateline that left me so mad at the end.

Edited June 11, 2019 by saber5055

[Annber03]

15 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Or how about hiring police and training police to actually PROTECT the people they are hired to protect, and teach them/train them to do their frigging jobs.

It was common when riding my 10-speed in town that I would be smacked on the rear end by some smartass guy hanging out of his car window. One time I got the license number and rode directly to the police station to report it. The police MAN behind the counter just laughed at me and said that's just a "guy thing" and to forget it, guys do that "all the time," he said. When I was alone on a country road and that happened, I stopped and picked up a bunch of rocks that I put in my bike jersey pocket, I was going to rock the car if it came back. It didn't, so end of that story.

That too, yes, definitely.

And good lord, that cop. Who cares if people are at risk of getting hurt or killed, guys gotta do their dumbass stunts, right? They just can't help or control themselves! 

Pathetic. It scares me that people like that are in charge of keeping us safe. 

[A.Ham]

3 hours ago, saber5055 said:

This was one Dateline that left me so mad at the end.

Seriously. To know they could have done something, and didn’t-I have to wonder how those who interacted with her sleep at night. And I get that lack of information played a factor here, but it didn’t sit well with me that it was so emphasized. It wasn’t just lack of training or common sense, but a combination of multiple people just. not. giving, two. shits. Nobody cared enough to connect the dots and now she’s dead. They failed her. And they failed her family and friends. She deserved way better than that. She seemed like a great kid, and had a bright future ahead of her.

It always amazes me that people can be so unaware of the warning signs of relationship violence. And I still think this case points to how females are just not provided the necessary support at Uníversities when they bring up concerns. This guy had a record as a predator and they knew this, but it didn’t warrant a second look. Baffling. I hope this sends a message to learning institutions across the country to do better.

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, A.Ham said:

It always amazes me that people can be so unaware of the warning signs of relationship violence. And I still think this case points to how females are just not provided the necessary support at Uníversities when they bring up concerns. This guy had a record as a predator and they knew this, but it didn’t warrant a second look. Baffling. I hope this sends a message to learning institutions across the country to do better.

This story should also be shown to the people who always go, "Why doesn't she just leave?!" whenever they hear these kinds of stories. Lauren did leave him. She did everything in her power to try and avoid having to see or communicate with him. You see how well that worked out for her. And there's numerous other similar tragic stories of women leaving only for the guy to find and kill them anyway. At this point you'd think people would wise up and realize that it's not as simple as saying, "Just leave!", but apparently not. 

[A.Ham]

20 hours ago, Annber03 said:

This story should also be shown to the people who always go, "Why doesn't she just leave?!" whenever they hear these kinds of stories. Lauren did leave him. She did everything in her power to try and avoid having to see or communicate with him. You see how well that worked out for her.

Yes. The most dangerous time for a woman in a domestic violence situation is right after leaving the abuser. And they know this. It’s not a huge leap of logic to think: “if he beat me up/screamed because of this minute detail (cook his food too salty or not salty enough) he may actually kill me if I leave”.

Edited June 12, 2019 by A.Ham
Grammar

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, A.Ham said:

Yes. The most dangerous time for a woman in a domestic violence situation is right after leaving the abuser. And they know this. It’s not a huge leap of logic to think: “if he beat me up/screamed because I of this minute detail (cook his food too salty or not salty enough)  he may actually kill me if I leave”.

Exactly. The woman leaving is proof the guy is losing/has lost his control over her, and that scares and angers him, so he lashes out. 

[Irlandesa]

I'm so glad so many of you were also left infuriated by last night's episode.  There's so much that makes me mad about how the University of Utah handled this.

First, I was livid when I heard that the Salt Lake City police kept kicking it back to the campus police even though multiple people were calling about the threatening behavior.  I had always heard that you were supposed to call the real police if you were attacked because they had the appropriate resources and that went nowhere here.

I was also furious when they showed the cop holding the press conference and he said that they didn't intervene because she hadn't been threatened physically.  The guy threatened to expose intimate pictures of her if she didn't pay him $1000.  That sounds like extortion and last I heard, extortion was illegal.  And there's something really violating and potential dangerous with posting naked pictures of someone online.

Then the President has the audacity to say that there was nothing that could have prevented this when, in fact, getting him for parole violations seems like it could have done something.  As we've seen in the University of MI case, admit no fault. People lose their job for mistakes all the time.  The least she could have done is replaced the chief (if it's in her purview) to make people on campus feel safer.

Then, they threw the Dean (or VP?) of Student Affairs out there when she likely is powerless to fix the situation.  My bet, she's the one person who probably legitimately expressed emotion in meetings about this so they thought they could put her in front of a camera as the face of caring.

Finally, their proposed solutions included educating about domestic and partner violence.  Really?  It seems like her friends and eventually she saw the red flags.  But recognizing it doesn't amount to a hill of beans if your campus police won't do jack shit to protect you.  They're the ones who needed the educating. 

I wanted ot hear that the parents were suing.  I was sad when that wasn't one of the things mentioned.

[Annber03]

17 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm so glad so many of you were also left infuriated by last night's episode.  There's so much that makes me mad about how the University of Utah handled this.

I was yelling at the TV a lot.

Quote

I was also furious when they showed the cop holding the press conference and he said that they didn't intervene because she hadn't been threatened physically.  The guy threatened to expose intimate pictures of her if she didn't pay him $1000.  That sounds like extortion and last I heard, extortion was illegal.  And there's something really violating and potential dangerous with posting naked pictures of someone online.

This. He also peeped in her window, which is generally a precursor to more violent behavior in these situations as well.

Besides that, so, what, they're basically saying a woman's concerns are only valid when physical violence is threatened? How about the emotional and mental toll he was taking on her? She was clearly uncomfortable with him constantly contacting her, and the fear in her voice was palpable. She specifically requested an escort to retrieve her car, because she was that afraid that she might encounter him. That wasn't enough reason for them to get involved? By the time a guy does threaten physical violence, it's almost too late to actually do anything. That's why people are supposed to try and stop it before it even gets to that point. Duh. 

Quote

Then the President has the audacity to say that there was nothing that could have prevented this when, in fact, getting him for parole violations seems like it could have done something.  As we've seen in the University of MI case, admit no fault. People lose their job for mistakes all the time.  The least she could have done is replaced the chief (if it's in her purview) to make people on campus feel safer.

The whole thing about how accountability doesn't have to mean people being fired-yeah, in this case, it kind of does. We're not talking about mixing up an order at a restaurant or a store or something here. A woman died because of their ineptness. They had to warn other students on campus that a shooter was on the loose because they didn't do enough to get him the hell off that campus. If I botched up my job that badly I'd sure as hell be let go, so I don't get why they're somehow exempt from having to face similar consequences. Maybe losing their jobs could be the wake-up call they need. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Annber03

[cooksdelight]

I was surprised the guy was able to walk into the dorm.

When I was in college (granted, a long while ago) you had to come in the front door of the dorm, the other doors were locked and you could only go out, not in. There was always someone at the desk, in the common area studying or watching TV. There was one dorm that was more like apartments, and it was co-ed. All the other dorms were either all girls or all guys. 

I hope the parents sue their asses off as well. And it sucks to be that lady in charge of the whole mess.

[UsernameFatigue]

9 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I was surprised the guy was able to walk into the dorm.

When I was in college (granted, a long while ago) you had to come in the front door of the dorm, the other doors were locked and you could only go out, not in. There was always someone at the desk, in the common area studying or watching TV. There was one dorm that was more like apartments, and it was co-ed. All the other dorms were either all girls or all guys. 

I hope the parents sue their asses off as well. And it sucks to be that lady in charge of the whole mess.

From what I remember, the video they showed was of him already in the dorm, looking out the door waiting for Lauren to arrive. Then it shows him leaving. They said during the episode that he didn't have a pass key to get into the dorm, but because he was there so often the other students got to know him and would let him in when they went in. 

What shocked me was that they said that he was practically living with Lauren in her dorm. WTF?? How was THAT allowed to happen? No one who was not paying to live there (ie someone who does not have a pass key) should have been living there! I said to my husband that not only did that put Lauren at risk (unbeknownst to her in the beginning) but it also put all other students at risk as well! 

I think that may have been part of the reason that her friend who was involved with the dorms (can't remember her exact title in that regard) felt somewhat responsible, or that she could have done more. Obviously the university was lax in that regard, but since it was known that he would come and go at will, all those in the dorm should have been told not to let him in. He could of course still force his way in, but had that rule been in place he may not have been able to come and go at will, long after it was known he was a danger.

This isn't victim blaming in the least (and likely would not have changed the outcome) but I was surprised that Lauren did not change her cell number so the ex could not keep texting her with threats, extortion. impersonations, etc. etc. It is the first thing I would have done. 

Sad case all around though, and I also hope that her parents sue. It has only been 8 months since Lauren died, so maybe they do plan to or it may even be in the works with their lawyer(s). 

Edited June 12, 2019 by UsernameFatigue

[saber5055]

1 hour ago, UsernameFatigue said:

He could of course still force his way in, but had that rule been in place he may not have been able to come and go at will, long after it was known he was a danger.

This is sort of a non-important fact to me, since he was only inside the dorm waiting for Lauren. Maybe it was too cold outside for him. As soon as he saw her, he went outside and killed her outside. So the end was the same if he was waiting in the lobby or the bushes outside.

1 hour ago, UsernameFatigue said:

This isn't victim blaming in the least (and likely would not have changed the outcome) but I was surprised that Lauren did not change her cell number so the ex could not keep texting her with threats, extortion. impersonations, etc. etc. It is the first thing I would have done. 

Yes, I wondered about this too. Why not block his calls or change her number or something. But I guess what's a no-brainer for me isn't for everyone else. I cringed that she actually paid this dude $1,000. And no cop thought about tracing where that money went? I wonder how Lauren paid it. Bitcoin? Money drop in some rando park trash can?

I wonder how long that university spokesperson got rehearsed before she appeared on the show. It would have been better for that school if no one spoke since it was because of the school doing jack that a student was murdered on its campus. I felt if she said what she wanted to, SHE would have been fired.

[12catcrazy]

I remember reading about this Dateline case around the time it happened.  The police dropped the ball on this one, and like others, I don't understand why  Lauren didn't change her phone number when the creep started with the endless phone harassment. 

Frankly, there should be classes taught in school starting in the 7th grade on  how to spot an abuser and avoid an abusive relationship.  First it starts subtly and when the victim puts up with the minor abusive behavior, it escalates.   It sounds as if Lauren tried to get out of the relationship fairly quickly (to me it appeared that they had been dating for less than 3 months) but it was already too late.  

Speaking of abusive relationships, there is a doozy of a case (you know its going to be a future Dateline episode) that is on-going in CT at the moment.   Beautiful woman from a wealthy family, mother of 5 children, has been "missing" for over 3 weeks.  Her blood has been found in her very large house, and she was in a nasty divorce/custody battle with her estranged husband who was playing house with his mistress - a woman described as "an international businesswoman".   Hubby and side-dish have been caught on CCTV disposing of trash bags in 30 locations and the police are combing a large trash dump with cadaver dogs trying to find the missing wife (who you know damn well is dead).   Victim's mother has the kids staying with her in a ritzy Manhattan apartment with armed security guards.   Interesting case.