All Episodes Discussion

[Angeltoes]

Burke's interview with Dr. Phil starts tomorrow, part two is on Tuesday, and part three is next week.

I thought it was interesting that Burke kept flipping around in his chair like an otter when he was talking to the psychologist.  And he was talking so casually about the whole thing.

Also, their friend said the Ramseys didn't have tempers and were so easy-going.  Patsy sure showed a lot of temper when talking to the investigators (which most people would if accused of killing their child).  

The theory that somebody was going to stuff JonBenet into a suitcase and shove it out a basement window is laughable.  Our granddaughter is now the same age and there's no way I can imagine it.  A person would have to be the Incredible Hulk to pull that one off.

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Friends allowed to come over sit around and clean the kitchen inside a kidnapping/murder scene?

That still baffles me. I would wait until I called the police to start calling all my friends.  I understand the family needed support, but in reality, I think calling all those people to the house was part of the cover up.

[UsernameFatigue]

As per usual I find that Dateline was not really big on details, so I went looking for some. This is the statement made by the DA who exonerated the Ramseys. Mankiewicz said that the two different places where the DNA was found was on JonBenet's PJ bottoms but that is incorrect - the two different places were on two different pieces of clothing. Ruling out that they would have been from someone handling the clothing ie a clerk. I also read that one of the places the unknown DNA was found was on JonBenet's underwear mixed with blood. This is the statement that says the DNA was on two different items:

This new scientific evidence convinces us ... to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife, Patsy, and your son, Burke, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime....

The match of Male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenét was wearing at the time of her murder.... To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law.... We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered.... I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion. But DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes. I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all of the evidence.

 

Someone here mentioned the fact that the time the kidnapper was going to call came and went with no mention of it by the Ramsay's. I believe that was mentioned by someone on the show  as well - maybe Mankiewicz? Even as that statement was said it made no sense to me. It was obvious to me that the writer of the note was referring to the following day, not the morning of when they found the note. They are expected to have found the note on the morning of the 26th which is also when one would expect it was written. (There was speculation that it was written the night of the 25th but no proof of that). The writer instructs John on denominations of the money, and that they will phone between 10 and 11 'tomorrow' to give instructions on the drop off. It also says that they will be monitoring him and if it appears that he has gotten the money sooner, they will call sooner. And to be rested for the drop off. Nothing in that note says to me that they are referring to the day they found JonBenet missing, but rather the next day. And for all the writer knows they may not even have found her missing until 8 or 9 in the morning so to expect John to have gotten the money and ready by 10am for drop off info makes no sense. I was scratching my head as it seemed obvious to me that 'tomorrow' meant the 27th, not the 26th which would be the day they found the note.

[iMonrey]

While much of the info covered here was rehash of things we knew 20 years ago, I had not heard the bombshell that the grand jury did in fact find probable cause to indict John and Patsy Ramsey. 

One thing I remember being reported at the time was that the police found a bunch of rough drafts, or practice versions, of the ransom note  at the Ramsey's house. Did that turn out to be untrue?

I thought they presented a fairly balanced case, reviewing the conflicting theories about whether or not an intruder might have murdered JonBenet. But overall I agree with the detective they interviewed, that there is a lot more evidence pointing against the intruder theory than for it.

[UsernameFatigue]

16 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Patsy said she got up and got dressed before checking on  Jon Benet, so maybe she's one of those women who puts on make-up before breakfast.  But would that sort of woman wear yesterday's clothes?  Or was she just talking about a little fuzzy jacket and not the same things underneath?  It might have been chilly.

My son had a serious, life threatening skull fracture from falling off his tricycle and the skin wasn't broken, so no blood.

I always wondered why the police  were so sure  that the Santa Claus man couldn't have done it because he was over sixty and in poor health.  How young and strong do you have to be to carry a five year-old down some stairs?

 I think Burke might well have accidentally killed her.  My older brothers loved me, but accidentally broke my arm on one occasion and my collar bone on another, just from shoving while playing.  It didn't have to be that flashlight, it could have been the side of the tub or toilet. That would explain the parents saying with such conviction that they didn't kill her while still being guilty of cover up.  Patsy just seems like the only person capable of sitting in the kitchen long enough to write that three page ransom letter. The corny tough-guy lines from movies sounded like the Patsy we saw in that blurry interview with the police, "You're going down the wrong  road, buster."

If my child had been kidnapped, I wouldn't have been able to think of anything else but getting that $118,000 together and ready to be dropped off.   To me, the fact that they let that appointed time come and go without mentioning it again is the single most damning thing against them.

I still don't feel like we know anything for sure.  Things that seem weird to me might be normal to others.  Laying out her Miss West Virginia gown and crown for the Christmas open house crowd made me embarrassed for Patsy.

John had made arragements for the money, and it was picked up at the bank by a family friend named John Fernie that morning. Again, more details left out by Dateline. As is often with these shows (and Dateline is one of the worst) I find doing my own research gives a more balanced picture as whether intentional or not, they often leave out rather important information. Though I do think they mentioned that John was getting the money together.

Edited September 11, 2016 by UsernameFatigue

[Patrizio]

I have always thought the Mother did it. I think once the Father dies, Burke will spill the beans. I saw a preview of his TV appearance, and just the fact he's going on Dr. Phil leads me to believe he's more than a little nutty. The FBI guy was right about everything. I can't imagine in a million years that these people thought the cops would target them or ever get any kind of indictment after the crime scene was mismanaged. Going on TV and talking to CNN, writing books, they ought to be ashamed of themselves. The family actually believes their version of events now. I only hope the knock out blow killed the child and she didn't suffer.

[NewDigs]

15 hours ago, tobeannounced said:

From what I understand, there was a 7-inch wound on her head which was visible.  Apparently their minister even tried to cover it up when John brought JB up from the cellar so Patsy wouldn't see it.

I can't remember, did they move the body before the police could process the scene? Could be argued that they were wilfully ignorant of what should have been done.

This case has always smelled to me. Not least because the crime scene was botched from the get-go.

eta great thoughts from everyone! Really intriguing thread-read.

Edited September 11, 2016 by NewDigs

[UsernameFatigue]

Need to correct a post above where I said that in the ransom note it was written that they would call 'tomorrow between 10 and 11". It was actually between 8 and 10, making it even more obvious to me that tomorrow was the next day (as if that wasn't already obvious). They said if it looked like John had gotten the money before that they would call earlier. Doubtful they would expect him to have money from the bank before 8am on the morning the note is found when they don't even know what time she will be found missing in the morning. The fact that this was not pointed out in the show boggles my mind - it was implied that the kidnappers were going to call that morning which is not at all what the note said.

The use of tough guy quotes in the note (Dirty Harry movie and Speed movie) makes it even less likely that it is Patsy to me. I am not a girly girl and I don't watch tough guy movies for the most part. And for me to be able to quote ANY movie I would have to see it several times for a particular line to stand out. Beauty Queen pageant winner Pasty doesn't seem the type that would be addicted to tough guy movies to a degree that she could quote verbatim. But someone who would break in to kidnap a child? Yep.

Not to mention the note says several times that if a certain action is done, JonBenet will die. And ends with saying that it will not be hard to kill her. Even if JonBenet died accidentally at the hands of a family member (which of course I don't think she did) I do not see Patsy writing a ransom note that would include several sentences saying that her daughter will die. You would have to have a heart of stone and no love for your child to do that.  Also, the note says that if any of certain actions are taken, it will result "in your daughter being beheaded". Not killed. Beheaded. I don't for a minute believe Patsy, or any parent that loves their child, would write a fake ransom note including the method their child would be murdered, let alone one that would mean cutting off their daughter's head. Keep in mind as well, this family has already lost John's older daughter less than 5 years previously.

 

Also, Patsy did not call the cop "buster" as was stated in an above post. She called him buddy which I don't find the least bit odd. I thought she showed much restraint. I would have wanted to call him much stronger names, especially if he was lying to my face and I knew it, which the cop admitted he did.

As to the question about moving the body, when John found JonBenet he tore the duct tape off her mouth and carried her body upstairs. Now again, follow this through. If John and Patsy were in cahoots to cover up the death and stage a crime scene, they would wait for the cops to find her. Now the cops would have found her if the first cop who had searched had bothered to go into that room. Now a few hours later one of the cops suggested to John that he look around the house to see if anything seems odd. Who in the world would expect to be directed to do so by the cops at an active crime scene? So if John knew JonBenet was there and 'found' her he would have left her as is and called for the cops to find her in the staged crime area. Or just not go where he knew she was so that the cops would find her (one would hope) at some point. However he didn't know she was there and instead found his beloved daughter with duct tape on her mouth and a garrote around her neck. This is a man who has not only been by her side while his wife fights breast cancer, but buried his older daughter less than 5 years before. He did what any grief stricken father would do. Certainly what I would have done had I come across my daughter in that manner. The cops seemed to be ignorant of how a crime scene (which would be the whole house and grounds one would think) should be handled.

Edited September 11, 2016 by UsernameFatigue

[jumper sage]

I have a brother 10 months older and a sister 5 years younger.  We never, ever touched each other with fighting.  I would not dream of hitting a sibling.  Our dad was an alcoholic so it was not Candy Land at our house.  I don't get why you would hit a sibling?  I don't think her brother did it.

@UsernameFatigue I agree with everything you said.  I think the evidence is more convincing as to an intruder, even if it was a known person.  The marks matching up with a stun gun.  The suitcase by the window.  The not finding the source of certain material involved in the murder.

[JudyObscure]

47 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

This is a man who has not only been by her side while his wife fights breast cancer

Usernamefatigue,  you bring lots of interesting information and more accurate information than I had  just by watching the show and my memories from when it all happened.  Still, there are lots of things that don't make sense to me and I think some ideas that stem from the sort of family we were raised in.  Just as a person who was never allowed to hit a sibling might find it hard to imagine, some of us who had a more rough and tumble childhood could easily see how  -- for example -- a race to the bathroom door might end in Burke shoving past JonBennet with enough force to send her flying off her feet so that her head hit the rim of the toilet.

Similarly I question statements like the one above.  We know John didn't leave Patsy when she was ill, but we don't know to what extent he  stood by her. I have had friends with serious illnesses and usually it's their best friend or sister, who does the real hands on care giving.  The police who were there during the days immediately after the murder reported that the couple barely spoke to each other.   What I do find easy to imagine is that John stood beside Patsy while she wrote the ransom note and dictated the movie quotes to give it what he considered a tougher sound. 

 The threats in the Ransom note that JonBenet might die probably was hard for the parents to write, but if we're going by the theory that she was already dead at the time, then the Ramseys might have felt it was important to portray the kidnappers as killers, because they were assuming she would be found dead in a short time.

1 hour ago, UsernameFatigue said:

So if John knew JonBenet was there and 'found' her he would have left her as is and called for the cops to find her in the staged crime area

Unless he was worried that he might have missed a fingerprint of his own somewhere on the staged area.  Also, since the police failed to come upon the staged scene as planned, he had to act like a normal parent would, and as you said, a normal parent would pick her up and remove the tape.

I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here.  I have gone back and forth on this case since it started and I still am.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

This is a man who has not only been by her side while his wife fights breast cancer,

Patsy had ovarian cancer. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Guest

[UsernameFatigue]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Usernamefatigue,  you bring lots of interesting information and more accurate information than I had  just by watching the show and my memories from when it all happened.  Still, there are lots of things that don't make sense to me and I think some ideas that stem from the sort of family we were raised in.  Just as a person who was never allowed to hit a sibling might find it hard to imagine, some of us who had a more rough and tumble childhood could easily see how  -- for example -- a race to the bathroom door might end in Burke shoving past JonBennet with enough force to send her flying off her feet so that her head hit the rim of the toilet.

Similarly I question statements like the one above.  We know John didn't leave Patsy when she was ill, but we don't know to what extent he  stood by her. I have had friends with serious illnesses and usually it's their best friend or sister, who does the real hands on care giving.  The police who were there during the days immediately after the murder reported that the couple barely spoke to each other.   What I do find easy to imagine is that John stood beside Patsy while she wrote the ransom note and dictated the movie quotes to give it what he considered a tougher sound.

 The threats in the Ransom note that JonBenet might die probably was hard for the parents to write, but if we're going by the theory that she was already dead at the time, then the Ramseys might have felt it was important to portray the kidnappers as killers, because they were assuming she would be found dead in a short time.

Unless he was worried that he might have missed a fingerprint of his own somewhere on the staged area.  Also, since the police failed to come upon the staged scene as planned, he had to act like a normal parent would, and as you said, a normal parent would pick her up and remove the tape.

I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here.  I have gone back and forth on this case since it started and I still am.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that John was the hands on care giver for Patsy. We have no way of knowing that. I just meant that he had suffered through the stress of his wife having cancer. My father, who adored my mother above all others, was a terrible care giver when she had open heart surgery. He could not stand the thought that she was sick and tried to pretend that she could recover in a matter of days. For myself, my hubby is the closest person in the world to me. But when I am under stress I tend to shut him out - it is just how I deal with things. I am amazed that the police even brought that up as they above everyone else should know that people deal with stress in their own way.

As far as the ransom note goes, even if I believed that John may have dictated the tough guy lines to Patsy (and why not just write it himself?) I don't believe for a minute he would have her write that their daughter would be beheaded if instructions were not followed. Not for a second. But a kidnapper would want to put that horrible imagine in the minds of the parents to scare them even further. I did roll my eyes though at the cop who said that when they got the code black call, he and his partner 'saddled up' to go to the call. Talk about watching too many movies - westerns in this case, apparently.

And yes Giant Misfit, you are right about Patsy having ovarian cancer. My mother had breast cancer twice and my mind automatically went there.

[kat165]

Angeltoes, I thought the same thing. It was distracting. I've seen lots of kids interviewed on shows like this and none of them have been so wiggly. My nephew at 6-7 was more composed than Burke in that interview. I recall they said he was 9? That is not THAT young. I remember being 9. I remember my nephew at 9, and I wouldn't have really considered him a "little kid." I guess I think of little kids more like 2-6.

This is not to say I think Burke did it.

One of the many things I found disturbing was the interview with John & Patsy perhaps a week afterwards, sometime around the first of the year. They were both so dry eyed while answering questions. Patsy, I know, was sedated, so maybe she was just numb. But John seemed like nothing tragic had happened, he seemed content and almost smiley. It was rather creepy.

[Cherrio]

On 9/10/2016 at 9:51 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

I was totally disgusted with the police woman they interviewed. She said at the first of the show that she came on to defend her police dept as they have been under attack for almost 20 years for doing a sloppy job.

I have seen her interviewed once before and both time she came off as very strange.

I was disgusted by her too.   She is going to defend her beloved police dept?   IMO, they are 100 % responsible for this case not being solved.

Colorado law enforcement.......who let Ted Bundy escape not only once, but TWICE !    so he could severely injure another 3 young women, kill 2 more young women and kill another 12 year old girl.     Not to mention the whole John Mark Carr disaster.

[EVS]

Regarding the DNA evidence, I found this article interesting:

http://nypost.com/2016/09/12/jonbenet-ramsey-series-questions-key-dna-evidence/

Basically, it is an interview with a former investigator for the Boulder DA's office. He did not work directly on the Jonbenet case, but claims that the DA was very pro-intruder theory from the beginning.  

He also says that they (police department?) only used 4 markers to match the DNA instead of the standard 13. I wonder if they had used all 13, if the DNA on her underwear and on her clothing would have still been considered a match. 

[Court]

On 9/10/2016 at 6:18 PM, Pickles said:

I wasn't allowed to hit my siblings but we did it anyways. My kids aren't allowed to hit each other but they fight and yes it gets physical sometimes. They love to wrestle for fun. This is totally normal and I'm betting 99% of siblings hit each other at some point.

Sorry, I can't get rid of this quote box.

Yes, the DA and the police were also at odds from the beginning. That was one of the many issues.

That house was a maze so I can see how someone unfamiliar with the house would miss the wine cellar. The family friend Fleet White said he had already checked that are when John went to check it.

My son is 8 and he would absolutely be that wiggly on a normal day.

[Arynm]

What stood out to me in this special was the DNA and the ransom note. They said that they not only found the DNA of a hispanic male, but a couple of others as well. Why was this never mentioned? It seems like it would be important. The use of 4 markers is strange. Why would they not do the usual 13 markers?  I don't fully understand touch DNA or the markers so I hope one of the other shows will go more in depth. The ransom note is still highly suspect. I don't care what time was in the note or what day they thought they were going to call, the Ramseys would not know for sure if the kidnappers meant that day or the next and should have been waiting by the phone for that call. As far as they knew that was the only link and hope for getting their daughter back. Huge red flag for me.

Also: the grand jury deposition I think saying that Burke didn't go downstairs but that he said that the voice on the tape sounds like him was strange. Maybe he doesn't remember? He was young, maybe he blocked it out or has been coached so much he believes the story.

[Stampiron]

The police and the Ramsey family expected the call that morning. From John Ramsey's 2008 interview with DA investigators:

John Ramsey: "When we were ready for the phone call and I was prepped about what I was going to say and I was getting the family ready. And so between that period of time we were just waiting for the phone call and I was near the phone. And I was either in the study or on the first floor. I (sic) just waiting for it."

John Ramsey: "We were well prepared. There was recorders set up; there was wire taps in place; [Det.] Linda [Arndt] had briefed me on what to say."

It doesn't matter how anyone here interprets that part of the ransom note. What's relevant is how the people who were there that day interpreted it, and according to John Ramsey they were waiting for the call that morning. 

Burke: 

- Two years prior to JonBenet's murder, JonBenet was taken to the emergency room after Burke hit her in the head with a golf club. This happened within a couple of days of JonBenet's birthday.

- During Patsy's first bout with cancer, Burke smeared feces all over the walls of the bathroom (this information came from the Ramsey's former nanny.)

- CSI techs found a pair of feces-stained pajama bottoms in JonBenet's room that were too big to be JonBenet's. They believed they were Burke's.

- During processing of JonBenet's room, feces was observed to be smeared on pieces of chocolate candy in a box that JonBenet had received for Christmas.

Does any of that prove Burke did it? No. All of the above can be true and still Burke might have had nothing to do with striking or strangling JonBenet. But before you start comparing Burke to your own kids, keep in mind that he might not be anything like your kids.

(And just a factoid if anyone was wondering why the police were able to interview Burke while John & Patsy were stonewalling: When a child is murdered in the home, child services requires an evaluation to be done on any other children living there if they're going to remain in the home.)

- Since the enhanced 911 call has never been released it's impossible for us to judge if Burke's voice can be heard or not, but in his book Det. James Kolar said that 3 different technicians at the lab, along with a BPD detective, all listened to the tape independently and then compared their notes, and all heard exactly the same thing: Adult female, adult male and a juvenile. They also agreed on the exact words said by all three. 

- More Burke: As the friends gathered at the house, one of Patsy's friends who had a son Burke's age expressed surprise that Burke wasn't awake. She knew that Burke was, like her own son, an early riser, usually waking around 5:30.

So Burke is an early riser and he's had both his parents as well as the police entering his room and a house full of people downstairs, yet still he hasn't gotten out of bed.

Around 7:00 am a police officer sees Burke being hustled out of the house. He stops them and says Burke can't leave. The family assures the officer that Burke's been asleep all this time and doesn't know anything, so he's allowed to go. It's decided that Fleet White will drive him over to his house where visiting relatives are watching his kids. White noted that Burke didn't ask him any questions about what was going on.

----

I have a question for the parents here since I'm not one: Imagine you have more than one child (if you don't.) You wake up one morning to find a ransom note claiming that your youngest has been kidnapped. You rush up to her room and find she's gone. Would you just leave your other child sleeping in his room for over an hour? I know the Ramseys said they checked on Burke, but wouldn't you wake him up and make absolutely sure he's okay? Wouldn't you want to ask him if he saw, heard or knew anything? And even though that note couldn't have been written by a 9 year old, maybe you'd desperately want to know if this was some kind of prank? And finally, knowing that someone has been in your house and taken your child, wouldn't your instinct be to keep that other child in your sight until the police arrived? I've heard people say how unsafe they feel in their homes even after a burglary. I would think a kidnapping is that times 1000. 

Maybe it's just me, but not waking Burke up just seems like very curious, very unlikely behavior given the circumstances.

[Maharincess]

On 9/11/2016 at 2:30 PM, jumper sage said:

I have a brother 10 months older and a sister 5 years younger.  We never, ever touched each other with fighting.  I would not dream of hitting a sibling.  Our dad was an alcoholic so it was not Candy Land at our house.  I don't get why you would hit a sibling?  I don't think her brother did it.

 

And my brothers used to beat the hell out of me.  Just because one family doesn't do a particular thing doesn't mean all families don't. All people and families are different. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Maharincess

[jumper sage]

1 hour ago, Maharincess said:

And my brothers used to beat the hell out of me.  Just because one family doesn't do a particular thing doesn't mean all families don't. All people and families are different. 

Brothers beating up a sister?  How is that in anyway ok?  I don't know very many people who had siblings hitting.  A few but for the most part no.  It looks like the Dr. Phil show might have family/hitting tomorrow.

Sorry to hear you had it so bad as a kid.

[Maharincess]

I know a lot of siblings who got physical with each other, it's just happens. They didn't literally beat me up but they got physical with me at times.  And I didn't say it was OK, I just said it happens.   No need to feel sorry for me,  I'm fine. It's just what some siblings do.  I didn't have it bad at all. 

In one of the threads here, I don't know which one because there are so many Jon Benet threads right now.  Anyway, somebody was talking about the flashlight and said it didn't belong to the Ramsey family.  How do we know that? Because they said it wasn't? That doesn't prove shit to me. 

Patsy laying out her pageant dress and crown for the Xmas tours is embarrassing.   

I'm still in the Ramsey's did it group. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Maharincess

[Tippi]

For as much as this case has been all over the media for years, I still don't understand a lot of the basic facts. Granted, I have not read any of the books about the case. For example, this Dateline was the first time I heard of the suitcase by the window.  Did the suitcase belong to the Ramseys, and if yes, was it usually stored in the basement or somewhere else in the house?  Ditto for the flashlight in the kitchen--is this suspected of being the weapon that resulted in JonBenet's crushing blow to the head?  How did it get there, or did it belong to the Ramseys and they always kept it there in the kitchen?  The retired FBI agent seemed to me to downplay the DNA evidence, but the same male DNA is on her underwear and pjs?  Who drew the red heart on her palm--the killer? Was that pen found in the house? Was she wearing the same pjs and underwear that she had on when she was put to bed? 

What was the motive for the intruder--to kidnap her or to sexually torture her and kill her right there in the house?  If the plan was to kidnap her, how did it turn into this horrific torture and murder?  How much time do investigators think elapsed between JonBenet being taken from her bed, the activities in the wine cellar, and the time that the intruder left the house? If the plan all along was to take her to the wine cellar and torture her, how would an intruder know that John and Patsy might not enjoy a nice bottle of wine at midnight after the kids had been put to bed?  In other words, if the intruder entered the house while the Ramseys were out at the party, roamed around and found the paint brush (was this tucked away in a kit or was it out in the open?), found the pads and practice wrote a three page ransom note with some uncanny coincidences such as the amount of John's bonus, the SBTC phrase, and the "don't grow a brain, John."  I thought I read something many years ago that Patsy and her mother used to tease John with that phrase.  If the plan was to kill her, why even write the ransom note? Plus with the pads and the ransom note and the garotte--there were no strange fingerprints on them?  How close was that open house with Patsy's gown on the bed to John breaking the basement window?  If this is like tours in my neck of the woods of fancy homes, I would expect any flaw like that to be repaired before the public tours the home.  Yes, I know that they wouldn't go in the basement but I would think a broken window would be fixed.

No matter what I think about them, I just can't believe that the Ramseys would concoct a scene with that awful garotte.  Serial killers and kidnappers have done some unbelievable things that don't seem possible--BTK and the Canadian Air Force captain broke in and wandered around in their victim's homes for hours undetected, and that horrible creep that kidnapped Elizabeth Smart pulled off an unbelievable crime.  My thinking is that someone in John Ramsey's life, who knew details about his home and his family's routines, wanted to hurt him in the worst way imaginable and accomplished that in torturing and killing JonBenet.  Or, a pedophile that somehow had an in to find out these things.  I just can't fathom someone going in that house that night that had never been in there before.

[Maria Von Trapp]

The 911 operator's testimony was discussed on another program awhile back, I don't recall which one, but I seem to remember that Patsy was heard to say to someone in the background " We're not talking to you". I'm not sure why Dateline kept referring to this evidence , but never said what was heard by the operator. Presumably it was Burke that Patsy was speaking to, which contradicts the parents version of Burke being asleep the whole time.  Burke admitted that he was not asleep, only pretending to be or trying to go back to sleep after his mother burst into his room all distraught. The fact that Patsy and John Ramsey would think anyone would believe their son remained sleeping after his mom came yelling into his room throws their credibility out the window. They also made a huge deal out of the fact that Jonbenet did not eat any pineapple, but yet it was found in her stomach contents. Was this because they wanted to stick to their story that they brought the child home from the party asleep, put her into bed , and never saw her again until discovering her missing the next morning ? The whole thing seems like a made up attempt by people who have obtained all their information about kidnappings from Hollywood movies, and have no idea what an actual pedophile or psychopath would do . As if they have tried to throw every cliche they've ever seen together and hoped that something would stick. Unfortunately due to the ineptitude of the police dept, the parents were able to get away with it. I don't think Burke had anything to do with the murder, but the fact that he cowered in his bed rather than getting up and running to his parents for support or to find out what was going on speaks volumes about the level of dysfunction in this supposedly perfect, affluent family. 

[SandyToes]

1 hour ago, Tippi said:

No matter what I think about them, I just can't believe that the Ramseys would concoct a scene with that awful garotte

I so agree with this.  I had always been in the "they are covering it up" camp - whether their son, or each believing the other parent did it, but now I just can't see it happening with the garrote.  I don't recall having heard that before all this recent coverage. Covering up an accidental whack on the head, sure.  Even faking a kidnapping.  But wrapping a cord around a child's neck is just beyond the pale for me.  I think this is one that we'll never know for sure, unless someone leaves a death-bed message. 

I do agree that is probably someone with contact with the family (disgruntled employee, neighbor, handyman), and am more in the "intruder" camp now.  Sweet baby girl.

[Maharincess]

@Maria Von Trapp, I just said in another thread (there are so many Jon Benet threads here now) that if it's true that Burke stayed in his room while everything was happening, shows me that he was used to being made to stay in his room while bad things were happening in the house. 

A lot of their life seemed like a big facade. I've read a lot that the non public rooms in their home were filthy, not just messy but filthy dirty.   Patsy was an odd duck in my opinion. I don't know if anybody watched Burke's interview in Dr Phil today but he had a smile on his face the entire time.  As he's describing when his father told him Jon Benet had died, he had a huge shit eating grin on his face.  It was really creepy. 

I don't understand why people have a hard time believing the parents could have used the garrote. I read stories every day of parents doing horrible things to their children.   I have to laugh every time I hear somebody like Patsy's friend saying that the parents aren't abusive.  Her friend said something like "I have never seen any abuse",  well duh.  Abusers are sneaky people who are sweet and charming in public, they aren't going to abuse in front of somebody else.  But NOBODY ever knows what happens behind closed doors.  

You never see friends or neighbors saying "yep, I saw a lot of abuse, I know something like this would happen" in cases like this,  it's always " I can't believe he/she/they did this, I never saw any signs of abuse". 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Maharincess

[tobeannounced]

44 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

@Maria Von Trapp, I just said in another thread (there are so many Jon Benet threads here now) that if it's true that Burke stayed in his room while everything was happening, shows me that he was used to being made to stay in his room while bad things were happening in the house. 

A lot of their life seemed like a big facade. I've read a lot that the non public rooms in their home were filthy, not just messy but filthy dirty.   Patsy was an odd duck in my opinion. I don't know if anybody watched Burke's interview in Dr Phil today but he had a smile on his face the entire time.  As he's describing when his father told him Jon Benet had died, he had a huge shit eating grin on his face.  It was really creepy. 

I don't understand why people have a hard time believing the parents could have used the garrote. I read stories every day of parents doing horrible things to their children.   I have to laugh every time I hear somebody like Patsy's friend saying that the parents aren't abusive.  Her friend said something like "I have never seen any abuse",  well duh.  Abusers are sneaky people who are sweet and charming in public, they aren't going to abuse in front of somebody else.  But NOBODY ever knows what happens behind closed doors.  

You never see friends or neighbors saying "yep, I saw a lot of abuse, I know something like this would happen" in cases like this,  it's always " I can't believe he/she/they did this, I never saw any signs of abuse". 

Dr. Lillian Glass commented on this in her body language blog.  I haven't watched the interview yet, but I recorded it.  Now y'all have got me wondering if Burke did it!

ETA:  I didn't see she had two posts on it.  Here's the first one.  Many of the comments are wondering if Burke is on the autism spectrum.

Edited September 13, 2016 by tobeannounced

[Maizie131]

47 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

  Patsy was an odd duck in my opinion. I don't know if anybody watched Burke's interview in Dr Phil today but he had a smile on his face the entire time.  As he's describing when his father told him Jon Benet had died, he had a huge shit eating grin on his face.  It was really creepy. 

I don't understand why people have a hard time believing the parents could have used the garrote. I read stories every day of parents doing horrible things to their children.   I have to laugh every time I hear somebody like Patsy's friend saying that the parents aren't abusive.  Her friend said something like "I have never seen any abuse",  well duh.  Abusers are sneaky people who are sweet and charming in public, they aren't going to abuse in front of somebody else.  But NOBODY ever knows what happens behind closed doors.  

You never see friends or neighbors saying "yep, I saw a lot of abuse, I know something like this would happen" in cases like this,  it's always " I can't believe he/she/they did this, I never saw any signs of abuse". 

 

After watching the Dr. Phil show for 20 minutes (which I'd DVR'd), I had to delete it for this exact reason...I couldn't stand the kid's smile on his face the entire g.d. time!!!  Creepy, indeedy!  Okay, I appreciate that people may tend to get "anxious" when lights & cameras abound, but shit!  This kid has been in the limelight almost his entire life.  What's up w/that?!?  And I absolutely agree w/your statement, "But NOBODY knows what happens behind closed doors." 

[pamplemousse]

The police found at least one psychology book at the Ramseys' home about sexual dysfunction in children and sexual abuse in the family (it might've been specifically about sexual abuse between siblings, but I don't remember for sure). And there was a dictionary with the page containing the word "incest" folded down/dog-eared as though to mark it.

Count me in the camp of the parents could've used the garrote. Could've been something one or both of them saw in a film just like the weird Hollywood film phrases in the ransom letter. I think it's even more likely that they used the garrote if Burke was responsible and they were covering up, in a desperate panicked situation where it looks like they've already lost one child and they don't want to lose another to the juvenile justice system. In such a horrible situation, I can believe they'd do desperate, awful things. The stuff people, even parents, are capable of in some situations defies comprehension or logic.

I have seen some theorize that Burke didn't do it and that his thing with putting feces all over the place was him acting out because he knew his dad was molesting his little sister. I don't know...there's a lot of really lurid speculation out there, but all I know is it seems clear that one detective is very wrong when he said there was no dysfunction in the Ramsey family. I don't think there's ever been a family with no dysfunction and it seems like the Ramseys had more than most...I just don't know exactly what kind and I don't know whether that dysfunction directly contributed or resulted in Jonbenet's death.

[Tippi]

Was JonBenet dead or alive when the garotte was around her neck?  I thought she was alive and used her fingers to try and dig at the rope around her neck. (This is heartbreaking to type out.)  Torturing her is one thing, staging the scene would be completely different, I would think.

[callmebetty]

40 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

The police found at least one psychology book at the Ramseys' home about sexual dysfunction in children and sexual abuse in the family (it might've been specifically about sexual abuse between siblings, but I don't remember for sure). And there was a dictionary with the page containing the word "incest" folded down/dog-eared as though to mark it.

Count me in the camp of the parents could've used the garrote. Could've been something one or both of them saw in a film just like the weird Hollywood film phrases in the ransom letter. I think it's even more likely that they used the garrote if Burke was responsible and they were covering up, in a desperate panicked situation where it looks like they've already lost one child and they don't want to lose another to the juvenile justice system. In such a horrible situation, I can believe they'd do desperate, awful things. The stuff people, even parents, are capable of in some situations defies comprehension or logic.

I have seen some theorize that Burke didn't do it and that his thing with putting feces all over the place was him acting out because he knew his dad was molesting his little sister. I don't know...there's a lot of really lurid speculation out there, but all I know is it seems clear that one detective is very wrong when he said there was no dysfunction in the Ramsey family. I don't think there's ever been a family with no dysfunction and it seems like the Ramseys had more than most...I just don't know exactly what kind and I don't know whether that dysfunction directly contributed or resulted in Jonbenet's death.

I was theorizing the same thing.  I can't imagine the terror and horror one would feel finding out one child killed another even accidentally. But to stage something like that truly defies logic. 

[Stampiron]

3 hours ago, Maria Von Trapp said:

The 911 operator's testimony was discussed on another program awhile back, I don't recall which one, but I seem to remember that Patsy was heard to say to someone in the background " We're not talking to you". I'm not sure why Dateline kept referring to this evidence , but never said what was heard by the operator. 

The 911 operator detected an abrupt change in tone once Patsy thought the call had terminated. She thought Patsy's hysterical tone suddenly dissipated and she could hear other people talking in the background. She wanted to make sure police listened to the whole call, including that last part.

What was heard on the tape by the group of technicians and the BPD detective was this:

Male (angry:) "We're not speaking to you!"

Female: "Help me Jesus. Help me Jesus."

Juvenile Male: "Well what did you find?"

----

@iMonrey, re the rough drafts of the ransom note: Analysis of the impressions in the pad the ransom note was written on showed another partial draft of the note had been attempted. That draft was never found. (toilet.)

2 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

The police found at least one psychology book at the Ramseys' home about sexual dysfunction in children and sexual abuse in the family (it might've been specifically about sexual abuse between siblings, but I don't remember for sure). And there was a dictionary with the page containing the word "incest" folded down/dog-eared as though to mark it.

I have read about books in the Ramsey house relating to child psychology, but I've never heard about one relating to anything as serious as sexual dysfunction or abuse. Can you source that?

The report of the dictionary opened to incest is apparently from Det. Steve Thomas's book, where he says he saw an evidence photo of the dictionary opened to that page with the corner folded down as if pointing to the word.

1 hour ago, Tippi said:

Was JonBenet dead or alive when the garotte was around her neck?  I thought she was alive and used her fingers to try and dig at the rope around her neck. (This is heartbreaking to type out.)  Torturing her is one thing, staging the scene would be completely different, I would think.

It's the consensus that she was alive when the garrote was applied, but unconscious (she likely never regained consciousness from the blow to the head.) It's possible that the person strangling her believed she was dead. I'll use that as a segue to mention this:

The Tape and the Rope:

In the opinion of the BPD and the FBI behavioral experts, JonBenet's body was staged. They think the tape on her mouth was placed there after she died, or at least after she was permanently unconscious. They think this because her lips left a perfect impression in the tape. If she'd been awake, the impression would be smeared by the movement of her mouth and jaw.

The cord used to bind her hands was 17 inches long and her hands were in front of her. The binding hardly restrained her movement at all. Furthermore, the slip knots around her wrist were so loose that they left no marks on her skin and a finger could easily fit between the gap.

In other words, the tape wasn't meant to gag her and the cord wasn't meant to restrain her. They were an attempt to make the crime scene look like something it wasn't. The FBI behavioral crimes unit said that if someone broke into the Ramsey's house, killed their daughter and then staged the body inside the house, it would be the only case of that ever happening.

No source was found in the house for either the tape or the cord. They Ramseys denied knowing anything about either. Were these materials brought in by the intruder?

Through a round-about way that I won't get into (it's not relevant,) the police became aware that Patsy had made purchases on two dates in early December on her credit card at McGurkin Hardware in Boulder. Unfortunately, the receipts didn't show the specific items purchased, only the price of each item and sections of the store that they came from.

They found that Patsy had made a purchase from the section that sold tape, and the price of that item was the same as a roll of tape matching what was found on JonBenet. She also made a purchase from the section that sold rope, though I don't know if they could match that purchase to the cord that was found on JonBenet.

Nobody is suggesting that Patsy purchased these items with the intention of using them in a future crime. The point is that there is at least some reason to believe that Patsy might have had those previously unexplained materials in her possession. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Stampiron

[kat165]

Stampiron, where did you get this info on Burke? I'd not heard most of it before. The emergency room, the many feces incidents.

Maharincess, apparently Dr. Phil was on the View and the Today show hawking his show & he addressed that, saying that Burke is socially awkward and was very nervous during the interview and was smiling out of nerves.

Maizie, it was also said that Burke has been protected, "hidden away" most of his life, that his parents tried to keep him away from the press/public.

Burke does present younger than his actual age. My mom's suggestion was "14."  I have aspergers syndrome and I know I can come off strangely and younger than my actual age. I'm not comfortable in social settings and have a difficult time picking up on social cues. Burke may have similiar issues for whatever reason(s).

He may very well be on the spectrum or he just may be a strange person or maybe even a sociopath. I'm not sure we'll ever know. I am interested in hearing Dr. Phil's interpretation/opinion. I don't watch Dr. Phil (though I did watch his show today) nor am I that familiar with him so if he's a hack I'm unaware of that, so I would like to hear what he has to say.

I'd also like to hear the reason Burke is speaking up now. Not that he really said much at all from what we've seen so far. I know it's coming up on 20 yrs. That doesn't seem a good enough reason for him to speak out now when it appears as though he really has nothing to say/add. Is he getting paid for this? Is he hard up for money? One of the recent specials I've seen on the case indicated that John Ramsey is no longer wealthy. And we weren't given any info on what Burke's present circumstances are. He doesn't seem to have any motivation at all.

I find John Ramsey's effect odd also so it could just be a family trait.

Pample, such a good point: "I don't think there's ever been a family with no dysfunction "

[Stampiron]

1 hour ago, kat165 said:

Stampiron, where did you get this info on Burke? I'd not heard most of it before. The emergency room, the many feces incidents.

Most of the info on Burke comes from James Kolar's Foreign Faction - Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? Kolar is a former Chief Investigator for the Boulder DA's office and also worked for the BPD. Here is a Reddit AMA he did a while back: https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/

Also, here is an AMA by former Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner (he was not Chief at the time of the murder though.) http://extras.denverpost.com/jonbenetAMA.html

Other information is from Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, which I haven't read completely (got burned out on JBR in the middle of it.)

Also, this site is a great resource: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682477/FrontPage

Edited September 13, 2016 by Stampiron

[RedheadZombie]

On September 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

I was actually disgusted with this episode as it seemed to be yet another attempt to point fingers at the parents, twenty years after the fact. I have never believed that John and/or Patsy, or even Burke for that matter were involved. This show just reinforced that opinion for me.

Besides the unknown male DNA on JonBenet's PJs, so many other unknowns - the rest of the paintbrush that was never found, the ligature source was never found, the duct tape source was never found, the suitcase, the flashlight that was not theirs, the footprint that could not be identified, etc. No to mention the marks that look like they come from a stun gun on JonBenet. Hardly something the parents would be using on their daughter. But actually the interview with Burke that was for some reason kept secret for 18 years just reinforced it for me. He says that Patsy came into his room saying "oh my gosh, oh my gosh' (I think it was). She was obviously looking for JonBenet when she did not find her in her bed. If she had killed her there would be no reason to go into Burke's room as she would know she was not there.  And it isn't like she was trying to create an alibi, as she thought Burke was asleep and did not wake him. Then when he heard his father tell his mother to stay calm and call the police (I think it was along those lines) - again makes total sense and not something they would need to stage, not knowing that Burke was awake and listening.

I was totally disgusted with the police woman they interviewed. She said at the first of the show that she came on to defend her police dept as they have been under attack for almost 20 years for doing a sloppy job. Then the show actually reinforces that they did a sloppy job. Sheesh. And she doesn't think the parents would have been convicted but thinks they (or at least Patsy) is guilty. No wonder the Ramsey's were leary of the police. And why would they have hired outside investigators to find the killer if they were the killers? They would have been like OJ and not done a damn thing if they were really guilty as they would know who the killer was.

I also was disgusted by Mankiewicz saying that JonBenet's life was not normal due to being in pageants. I don't understand the interest in them, but then where I come from they don't exist. But then again neither does worshiping high school football players and cheerleaders. Obviously Patsy grew up in the pageant culture, and JonBenet seemed to love it so as an interviewer who should be impartial I found his statement to be very unprofessional. 

I was disgusted by that policewoman, too.  I wonder if she's the one who immediately knew John Ramsey was the killer when she looked into his eyes, and also said she counted the people in the room to see if she had enough bullets to shoot her way out of the room.

Mankiewicz is always a smug condescending bastard, but he bothered me more than normal.

On September 11, 2016 at 7:36 AM, JudyObscure said:

Wow, that is news to me. What a strange coincidence.

(Sorry about my head wound confusion, I thought someone was saying there was no blood because the skin wasn't broken.)

I think there's no doubt the police work was horrible.  Friends allowed to come over sit around and clean the kitchen inside a kidnapping/murder scene?  There's no getting around the fact that you completely dropped the ball, lady cop.  I believed it then and I believe it now.  This case plus Columbine had me thinking, for awhile, that Colorado police work was useless.

 In fact the police work was so bad,  I don't put much stock in things like the duct tape and paintbrush not being found.  John could have bagged it all up and put it in the neighbor's trash or his car and no one would have looked right away. They missed a whole body in the basement, I can see them not finding half a paintbrush if it was rolled under a cabinet. 

Burke's story is too vague for me.  Patsy could have been saying, "Oh gosh, oh gosh," because she had just accidentally killed Jon Benet or because  she couldn't find the duck tape, last seen in his room, or many other things. 

John saying,  "Calm down and call the police," could have been because they thought JB was missing or because they had just finished setting up a murder scene and were ready for the police to come.  I wonder why  John didn't call the police himself?

Why would a kidnapper kill the child?  If he killed her accidentally, why set up all the other stuff and not just run?  Why bring a tiny suitcase instead of a knapsack?  Why take her to the basement instead of out the kitchen door?

DNA on her nightgown after all this time could belong to anyone from the store clerk who sold it to the handy man who had used that room to store paint.

Yesterday, for the first time, because of this, I watched two whole episodes of, "Toddlers in Tiaras."  Now, I'm siding with Josh.  That stuff's not normal.  Little girls dressed in Playboy Bunny outfits.  Grown men in the audience, cheering wildly or staring slack jawed.  Mothers making little girls practice cheesy, butt wiggling dance routines for four hours a day,  Exhausted three year-olds sobbing from nerves and discomfort in false eyelashes and itchy crinoline.  Little divas ordering their mothers to bring them cokes, 'NOW!"  Spending $50,000 a year to teach their daughters to act like strippers when they could be doing team sports, tennis, ballet, art lessons, piano, violin, planting a garden, cooking with Mommy, or just swinging in the back yard.   There's no reason for this.

If the Ramseys were able to immaculately clean up the scene and remove their DNA completely from Jon Benet, underneath her fingernails, her clothing, the garotte, the masking tape and paint brush, the rope, and hide all of that evidence, why be so sloppy as to make the ransom note on the same pad of paper you hand over to the cops to show handwriting samples?  Why save practice ransom notes?  Why point right at yourself by naming John's bonus?  

The DNA was the same male source on several different clothing items, bought and manufactured in different factories.  If even her own father and brother's DNA were not found on her body, how in the world would she magically be contaminated with DNA of a man she never even came into contact with?

It was never a kidnapping for ransom, the note was made just to divert attention.  He always intended to torture and kill her but at a different location.  When he couldn't get her out easily, he simply changed the location of his intended murder.   

I believe the alarm system would have been triggered by an opening of a kitchen door.

And I just don't see a woman killing her child in cold blood, then rushing to look in her sleeping son's room for the missing duct tape from her torture kit, while exclaiming, "oh gosh, oh gosh".

John said he had Patsy call the police because he had the three pages of he ransom note lined up, and he was in the process of studying it.

I will never understand child pageants, but it has a history in Southern culture.  I have an older Arkansan cousin whose daughter's bedroom was over flowing with ginormous pageant trophies and crowns, and is currently working on accomplishing the same with her baby granddaughters.

On September 11, 2016 at 0:39 PM, Patrizio said:

I have always thought the Mother did it. I think once the Father dies, Burke will spill the beans. I saw a preview of his TV appearance, and just the fact he's going on Dr. Phil leads me to believe he's more than a little nutty. The FBI guy was right about everything. I can't imagine in a million years that these people thought the cops would target them or ever get any kind of indictment after the crime scene was mismanaged. Going on TV and talking to CNN, writing books, they ought to be ashamed of themselves. The family actually believes their version of events now. I only hope the knock out blow killed the child and she didn't suffer.

She did suffer.  She was tortured and died by strangulation.

[kat165]

Thank you, Stampiron, for all the informative links. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

[Court]

Mothers do kill their children. Women do kill. We have a hard time believing it but women are capable of being murderers. I don't know if Patsy did it but she's capabale I thought Dateline did a pretty good job of balancing their coverage. They presented both sides and conflicting evidence. Maybe the missing stuff was thrown away. Maybe the missing stuff was thrown away. The police missed a body, they could have missed that stuff!

We don't know when the stun gun was used. Perhaps one of them did it so no one would hear her. Not a single shred of evidence, including the DNA, can be trusted completely to support either view because the scene was so contaminated. 

Transfer DNA is what a lawyer could say for how it got on her clothing. Or that it can't be trusted because thr chain of custody was contanimated. There may not have been 13 markers to use for the sample depending on size.

Pageants aren't my thing but they're normal. What isn't normal to me is to bleach a 6 year olds hair for pageants. 

It's easy to see how some things point away and to the parents. 

Again, I cannot get rid of this quote box. Can someone help? 

Edited September 14, 2016 by AmandaPanda
got rid of the quote box for you

[JudyObscure]

Quote

Around 7:00 am a police officer sees Burke being hustled out of the house. He stops them and says Burke can't leave. The family assures the officer that Burke's been asleep all this time and doesn't know anything, so he's allowed to go

First rule of Colorado police work; believe anything the prime suspects tell you.  I don't care if this was something new for the Boulder police or not, if they ever watched, "The Andy Griffith Show," they should have known better.   Barney fife was more professional.

Quote

I will never understand child pageants, but it has a history in Southern culture.

Patsy was from West Virginia, as am I, and I never considered myself Southern, or part of that culture in the way of Arkansas, Alabama, etc.  We're sometimes lumped in with the south for convenience (and sometimes we're called the Midwest and sometimes Eastern Seaboard) but we don't eat grits or drink mint juleps.  We're Appalachian people. We fought with the Union during the civil war and we're proud of it. 

Growing up, I never new a single girl who did pageants until my cousin, who was attending WVU at the time, became Miss West Virginia and was second runner up in the Miss America contest.  My parents were both proud and ashamed because, "Parading around in a swimsuit in front of a crowd," was considered a tacky thing that only a lower class hillbilly would do.  Honey Boo Boo and her mom are just typical pageant people to me.  So this idea that Patsy was far too refined to watch action movies or strike a child is curious to me and I don't think she can't blame southern culture for making such  bad decisions with her little girl. 

The more I read  Stampiron's information about Burke, the more it sounds like he was dangerously jealous of Jon Benet. It seems more and more likely that he would act out against her after she was made the center of attention during the holiday.

Edited September 13, 2016 by JudyObscure

[Maizie131]

Patsy Ramsey appears to be extremely stoned in damn near every interview w/police or whomever.  Tranquilizers...booze...both?   I've always thought that possibly this was a common occurrence even before JB was murdered. 

[Court]

1 hour ago, Maizie131 said:

Patsy Ramsey appears to be extremely stoned in damn near every interview w/police or whomever.  Tranquilizers...booze...both?   I've always thought that possibly this was a common occurrence even before JB was murdered. 

I believe she was highly sedated for these. 

[Stampiron]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

First rule of Colorado police work; believe anything the prime suspects tell you.  I don't care if this was something new for the Boulder police or not, if they ever watched, "The Andy Griffith Show," they should have known better.   Barney fife was more professional.

Here's some background on why the crime scene was botched:

The Detective Commander was a man named John Eller. He had rotated-in to the job about 9 months before and had never overseen a murder investigation. Upon being told by one of the responding officers that the Ramseys were "credible millionaires," Eller assumed they were influential people and should be treated with deference. He told his officers to treat them as victims, not suspects. 

Eller was very old-school and thought the only real cops were the ones who came up from the street. He didn't like the FBI and from day one resisted their help in the case, as well as help from the Colorado State Police, two agencies that had experience with this type of crime.

The female detective featured on Dateline (she's not the one who was at the Ramsey's house that morning) talked about how they kept the crime scene for 2 days, exhaustively gathering evidence, but in reality Eller wanted to release the crime scene after less than 2 hours of evidence collection.  An assistant DA - a veteran of 19 years who'd worked on over a dozen murder cases - strongly objected to this and went over Eller's head to the Chief of Police, who sided with the DA. Eller apparently never forgave this and it was the beginning of ongoing friction between the two offices.

Source: Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

[walnutqueen]

7 hours ago, Court said:

Again, I cannot get rid of this quote box. Can someone help? 

Put your cursor at the top left corner of the quote box until a 4 part square shows.  Cursor on that while hitting your delete button (at least, that's how it works for this old dinosaur of a laptop).

[NewDigs]

10 hours ago, Court said:

Again, I cannot get rid of this quote box. Can someone help? 

I'm on an iPad mini and I touch the text area and that same little box @walnutqueen described pops up.

Touch/highlight that little box and hit that x-arrow/delete thingy above return and that should do it.

[SPLAIN]

On 4/6/2016 at 1:14 AM, Sims Addict said:

I agree with others that she should have taken the deal. While I am exceedingly sympathetic to abuse victims (and feel there is merit in her abuse defense), a man is dead and there has to be some reckoning for that.

 

I am surprised no one has mentioned her best friend from childhood. I am sure that woman was well-intentioned, but she came off as very cloying to me. The slow cadence, tilted head, and attempt at "soft" eyes fell flat to me. Then, she went from "I sent Christmas cards with no response....to....that explains she was a battered woman!" I was far more likely to believe the neighbor and co-workers who had been around the couple. I wish they had spent more time interviewing them and not a friend who admittedly had lost touch with her and really didn't know much about Jane's current life.

I delayed posting, but felt I needed to.

Ignore the quote above. Not sure why it is there.

This crime took place in our city. The victim was one of my children's teacher's.

The families involved are all well-known to the community. 

Mrs. Laut was always kind and very friendly, as was her husband. His death was a shock. Her accusations were just as shocking. No winners here at all.

The attorney, Ron Bamieh, has defended many high-profile clients in our county. I once had the pleasure of meeting him in a criminal case in which I was a witness. I then had other interactions with him through my job.

One of my children works at the courts. I was privy to what was happening before the case went to trial. 

My belief Mrs. Laut was a victim of DV. The thing that seals it for me is the son who backs up his mother's claims. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by SPLAIN

[Maizie131]

I had lunch today w/3 friends of mine - 2 men, 1 lady (all retired attorneys).  I've known the 3 of them for many years & they are NOT fans of I.D. channel, or true crime stories for that matter.  Anyhow, I asked if they recalled the Jon Benet Ramsey case & they all said yes.  I then asked, "From what you recall from everything you read back then, who do you think killed her?"  Their response?  "The mother."  They added that they thought it was an accident, that she didn't mean to kill her. 

[pamplemousse]

22 hours ago, Stampiron said:

I have read about books in the Ramsey house relating to child psychology, but I've never heard about one relating to anything as serious as sexual dysfunction or abuse. Can you source that?

 

I heard it on the podcast episode that Generation Why? did on the Jonbenet case a while back (the podcast was not recent and not some sort of tie-in to the Datelines episode). I think I also read mention of it in a former Boulder police officer or detective's Reddit AMA

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/jonbenet-ramsey-case-129-generation-why

The hosts of Generation Why talk about it around 1 hr 37 min. They said the books were entered into evidence and were about sexual aggression in children (not sexual abuse as I called it, so I stand corrected on that). Fair warning to those who believe in the intruder theory: these two guys don't -- they're in the Burke did something and the parents covered it up camp. They do go over most of the available info about the case in fairly exhaustive detail, but they also talk reaaaally slow (imo) so some might find it annoying to listen to.

[Stampiron]

Thanks pamplemousse, but after listening to some of that podcast I think the host is mistaken. It sounds like he's read the Kolar book and confused books Kolar said were found in the home with a book he consulted for research (Sexually Aggressive Children, Coming to Understand Them.) They are mentioned near each other in a section that speculates about Burke having severe emotional/behavioral problems. 

[pamplemousse]

1 minute ago, Stampiron said:

Thanks pamplemousse, but after listening to some of that podcast I think the host is mistaken. It sounds like he's read the Kolar book and confused books Kolar said were found in the home with a book he consulted for research (Sexually Aggressive Children, Coming to Understand Them.) They are mentioned near each other in a section that speculates about Burke having severe emotional/behavioral problems. 

Thanks for letting me know because when I originally listened to the Jonbenet podcast episode and they talked about police finding books about sexual aggression in children, I was like whoa. That really caught my attention.

In another part of the podcast, the hosts talk about how the unusual marks on Jonbenet's body were measured against many stun guns and none of them fit, but what did fit was the track of a toy train set that was kept in the basement (I think John and/or Burke was into collecting train sets). When I heard that the first time I listened to the podcast, it actually chilled my blood, it was so creepy.

[cooksdelight]

The grand jury voted to indict the parents, but the DA Hunter never persued it. Never filed charges. He felt the evidence was muddled. But others believed he wanted to protect the Ramseys.  Gordon Coombes, former investigator with the Boulder, CO D.A. office,  thinks that John Ramsey's relationship with Mary Lacy was more than just friendly, and that's why she cleared the Ramseys so quickly.

[NewDigs]

9 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

The grand jury voted to indict the parents, but the DA Hunter never persued it.

Never filed charges. He felt the evidence was muddled. But others believed he wanted to protect the Ramseys.  Gordon Coombes, former investigator with the Boulder, CO D.A. office,  thinks that John Ramsey's relationship with Mary Lacy was more than just friendly, and that's why she cleared the Ramseys so quickly.

Wow. Does that happen as infrequently as I think it does?

I thought the grand jury was a kind of a gold standard for DA offices. 

[Guest]

They are mentioned near each other in a section that speculates about Burke having severe emotional/behavioral problems.

After watching his recent interview, I don't think that speculation is far from the truth.

The grand jury voted to indict the parents, but the DA Hunter never persued it. Never filed charges. He felt the evidence was muddled. But others believed he wanted to protect the Ramseys.  Gordon Coombes, former investigator with the Boulder, CO D.A. office,  thinks that John Ramsey's relationship with Mary Lacy was more than just friendly, and that's why she cleared the Ramseys so quickly.

I also believe that the Ramsey friend who suggested the Ramseys get lawyers ASAP was close with Alex Hunter. 

But the police officer Josh Mankiewicz interviewed, who believed the parents were guilty, was also of the mindset that charges shouldn't have been filed at that point. So, as with everything in this case, who really knows.