Happy Valley - General Discussion

[MrsE]

It's in the Calder Valley, W. Yorks, and a lot of it is filmed in and around Hebden Bridge and Sowerby (pronounced so-aby).

Edited March 27, 2016 by MrsE

[dustylil]

The scenery of West Yorkshire was lovely but I was enchanted by the conservatory and little backyard of Catherine and her family. I am so used to seeing those grim two-up, two-down houses of British kitchen sink dramas (and comedies) over the years, that I really enjoyed seeing a warm and cozy back garden behind at least one of them.

Edited March 27, 2016 by dustylil

[shandy]

I didn't really get into the first season, but this second one has had me do nothing but a marathon in my free time. I could watch Catherine and her sister sit and talk about cr*p in the yard for hours, with steaming mugs of tea in the damp daylight. 

 

It's difficult to do justice to how Sarah Lancashire inhabits that character - it's just an astonishing portrayal. Wainwright is a magician - I always feel I could meet her characters at the store or on the street.

[Duke2801]

You guys were right!  As much as I loved and adored the first season, the 2nd season might have been even slightly better.  I just love everything about this show--that acting, the dialogue (admittedly I DO keep the closed captioning on the catch all of it), the scenery.  LOVE the relationship between Catherine and her sister. Just so damn good. 

 

It was nice to see the relationship develop between her son and Ryan, too.  I really did think they were going to "go somewhere" with her son's character though, besides him being a cheater who ran home to live with mommy. It feels like maybe they are setting up a romance between him and Anne for season 3 (which, fingers crossed, there IS a 3rd season!).  Also thought it was strange that Catherine didn't get on him about spending time with his own kids, not just his nephew. 

 

As much as I enjoyed shows like The Killing, The Fall, Luther, and Broadchurch, I really think this show might be my favorite crime/mystery/drama of the 21st century. 

 

QuoteFirst off, Shirley Henderson has some goddamn excellent genes. Woman looks my age (27) and she's in her fifties!

 

 

Hmmm, now see, I think she has very nice hair and a great figure, but if you just look at her face, I think she looks 50.  Maybe mid 40s.  Ack, that voice though.  I don't think I could stand to be around her in real life for very long.  Very grating.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Duke2801

[AnnaMayWong]

I wear many a cardigan and luv it (!). BUT, that doesn't mean that I don't watch other types of mysteries, dramas, genres,... as well. No unraveling here ! :-)

...

GOOD series.

Edited March 29, 2016 by BookElitist

[7-Zark-7]

I prefered the 2nd season to the 1st where Royce was more of a Supervillain than a believable killer - how many escapes did he pull off?  In this one, all the murders seem well grounded in reality.

 

I remember when I first saw Shirley Henderson's name in the credits for the 1st episode and thought "Oh, that's nice. I always like her." Then her character arrived.

 

I love Sally Wainwright's shows. "Last Tango in Halifax" (and Sarah Lancashire's character) could not be more different this... or "Scott & Bailey".

[mansonlamps]

You guys were right!  As much as I loved and adored the first season, the 2nd season might have been even slightly better.  I just love everything about this show--that acting, the dialogue (admittedly I DO keep the closed captioning on the catch all of it), the scenery.  LOVE the relationship between Catherine and her sister. Just so damn good. 

 

It was nice to see the relationship develop between her son and Ryan, too.  I really did think they were going to "go somewhere" with her son's character though, besides him being a cheater who ran home to live with mommy. It feels like maybe they are setting up a romance between him and Anne for season 3 (which, fingers crossed, there IS a 3rd season!).  Also thought it was strange that Catherine didn't get on him about spending time with his own kids, not just his nephew. 

 

As much as I enjoyed shows like The Killing, The Fall, Luther, and Broadchurch, I really think this show might be my favorite crime/mystery/drama of the 21st century. 

 

 

Hmmm, now see, I think she has very nice hair and a great figure, but if you just look at her face, I think she looks 50.  Maybe mid 40s.  Ack, that voice though.  I don't think I could stand to be around her in real life for very long.  Very grating.

Gotta disagree after figuring out who we are talking about. I think she looks mid 30s at the very most , both in character and the actress herself. Wow.

This show is so great, I agree with the poster that said it was their favorite over Broadchurch The Fall and all the rest . The young actor who plays Ryan was really good this season too. And evil Molesley!

[zxy556575]

I mostly am in awe about how different James Norton is in this than Grantchester. A lot of actors trot out their own personal idiosyncrasies for every character, but he's unrecognizable.

 

I think I need to rewatch season one -- I tend to play online games while the TV is background and miss a lot of nuances. I want the best for Catherine and don't like seeing her so beat down and heavy-hearted. Not that she wasn't last season, but I think #2 is ever drearier.

[Sonja]

I mostly am in awe about how different James Norton is in this than Grantchester. A lot of actors trot out their own personal idiosyncrasies for every character, but he's unrecognizable.

Couldn't agree more. It was especially obvious in the last ep - putting it under the spoiler tag in case you or anyone else hasn't seen it yet as this is not a Grantchester thread (and why don't we have one?!) -

when he hit Geordie and realised what he had done as opposed to Royce's 'you made me do it' attitude to everything he does.

 

I think I need to rewatch season one -- I tend to play online games while the TV is background and miss a lot of nuances. I want the best for Catherine and don't like seeing her so beat down and heavy-hearted. Not that she wasn't last season, but I think #2 is ever drearier.

I love Catherine when she's having fun like tasering the guy in the groin and then joking about it. I know the series hinges on the exact opposite, but Catherine can be hilarious, so I hope they give her more balance in the next series. Otherwise she really might explode one of these days.

Also, kudos for being able to play online games and registering anything about a series at the same time.

[zxy556575]

The Grantchester thread is under the Masterpiece forum.  :)

[7-Zark-7]

I have trouble believing the police wouldn't have rerouted traffic to avoid going under the tunnel. They were right there.

 

They never did say if the guy was dead. He could have survived.

[Sonja]

The Grantchester thread is under the Masterpiece forum.  :)

 

Oh, thank you! :-) I am way too invested in those characters. Sad this week is the last ep already...

 

I have trouble believing the police wouldn't have rerouted traffic to avoid going under the tunnel. They were right there.

 

They never did say if the guy was dead. He could have survived.

 

Didn't they mention he was alive? I think Catherine's superiour said something along the lines of thim hanging by a thread.

[MrsE]

We had a shot of him lying motionless in the road with eyes wide open, fixed and staring.  The bloke's as dead as a dead thing.

 

I think that the little stabs of humour are like the grit in the oyster, in that they just produce something of real beauty, and I know that most people would be looking at Happy Valley for a very long time before that word came to mind.  The little to and fro about Cathering having a nickname that was prolonged for precisely the right amount of time is one example.  Trunchbull and Brunhilde!

Edited April 5, 2016 by MrsE

[skyways]

I found Series one better. I had to stop Series 2 for a while before finishing it which never happened with the first series. When she was recounting what happened with the sheep it was hilarious. Poor Godzilla! I don't know why but that line where she said, ' I made mousakka'............still makes me laugh every time. I don't even know what mousakka is.

[dustylil]

My technological ineptitude knows no bounds. I cannot use the Spoiler feature to save my life. When will it be permissible to raise a question concerning a plotpoint in the last episode of the second series?

[pasdetrois]

All winter I had this thought parked in the back of my brain: when's Happy Valley coming back?

 

Have seen five of the new episodes so far. First two dragged a bit and I wondered if the show had lost its momentum. But I woke up with episode three and was glued to the TV by episode four. Now I'm already mourning that the season is so short.

 

Sarah Lancashire's acting chops are touched by the gods. She is remarkable.

[missmontyp]

I read somewhere that Kevin Doyle said he read for two parts in this season and got the one he really wanted (John).  He never revealed what the other one was but when watching I imagined it was Clair's boyfriend, Neil.  That actor was really good too but I bet Kevin Doyle would have played him really well.

 

But Kevin got the larger part and did an excellent job so I am sure he is very happy.

[tennisgurl]

I thought season 2 was even better than season 1, even if the whole serial killer thing was a bit played out. I liked how they did this. It never took over the show, and continued its focus on the characters and the atmosphere, which is where the show succeeds the most. 

 

Cannot wait for season (or series as they call them across the Pond) 3!

[backhometome]

I might be one of the few that preferred Season 1. I was hooked on the first series and couldn't stop watching. Whereas the second series was good I didnt find myself itching to watch it all in one sitting like I did the first.

 

Tommy Lee Royce was terrifying to watch in the first series. Though there were a few plot points that made no sense. Like when Tommy was stabbed and was looking like he was going to die but then he was up walking around in a disguise. 

 

I think my fav. part of the whole series is Ann pulling Catherine out of the cellar. She became my fav. character at that moment. 

[Diane M]

Absolutely love this series, but then most British shows are excellent with all their great actors.  I love Kevin Doyle.  He was superb as Molesley in DA and was one of my favorite characters.  In HV, he showed what a versatile actor he is, playing such a different character. Hope there is a third series.

[dustylil]

I think sufficient time has passed that I can raise some questions about the last episode of Season 2.

Why was Tommy allowed to receive that thank you note from his son? His mail was screened by the prison authorities. I thought that no contact with anyone connected to the family was part of his sentencing conditions. 

In addition, the letter was some evidence of the involvement of the fiancée/groupie in setting up a link between Tommy and Ryan. Wasn't there  some kind of  criminal case in progress against her? Shouldn't the police and/or the Crown Prosecution Service have had custody of the document until the case was resolved? 

And finally, why was Catherine - as Ryan's guardian - not notified that her grandson had been writing to Tommy? That the two would establish a bond was one of her worst fears. Yet there was no sign she had been told.

[TaraS1]

Moaning Myrtle is 50?!  That blows my mind.  When they mentioned in the show that Frances was 45, I thought it was odd that they'd have the character be that old and then hire a younger actress for the part.  I must say, though, the voice drove me up a wall.  I don't know if that's the actress's normal speaking voice, but it sounded exactly like a retread of Moaning Myrtle and really didn't fit this part, IMO.

That being said...I still absolutely loved every second of this show.  S2 was just as good, if not better, than S1 for me.  Sarah Lancashire is everything.  And I especially love the relationship between Catherine and Ryan.  Looking forward to S3 (hopefully) - there are still loose ends to tie up with the human trafficking story.  I was so afraid Winnie would end up dead by the end of S2, so I'm thankful that didn't happen.

[LeGrandElephant]

On March 17, 2016 at 10:29 AM, DropTheSoap said:

I'm wondering about Catherine's look as she watches Ryan at the very end of the last episode of Series 2. 

 

Makes me concerned for S3, if there is one.

I keep thinking that they really ought to have Ryan in some kind of therapy to talk about all these issues. Maybe keeping it secret was an ok plan before Season 1, but now that Ryan knows some of what's up, it seems grossly negligent to just keep telling him not to talk about it and expect it to go away. They need a professional who can talk these issues out in an age appropriate way without getting angry. I know no one wants to explain that his father is a rapist, but they also don't seem to have discussed the fact that he was trying to kill Ryan himself. They kept saying "poured petrol on you" not "tried to kill you in a horribly painful way".  Just continuing to shush him when he asks about his father seems to be doing more harm than good - it's more likely to lead him to act out and sneakily try to pursue a relationship with his father. 

 

Im surprised to see a lot of speculation here than maybe Ryan's conception wasn't actually rape. I never thought the show was putting that in doubt. First, we know without a doubt that he IS a violent rapist who will deny it later. Second, Daniel sounded more like he was blaming his sister for being raped than saying it wasn't rape. It sounded like she was 17 and fell in with a bad crowd including drug dealers, and met Tommy that way, and found him attractive. She admitted to her brother she liked him. So, she flirted with him, encouraged him, maybe even wanted to sleep with him under the right circumstances, but he, being as violent and evil as we know he is, violently raped her instead of going along with her nice fantasy crush. He traumatized her enough that she couldn't face dealing with the pregnancy and then killed herself. Catherine strongly implied in the first season that if Becky hadn't been traumatized by the rape she would have just gotten an abortion in the first place and gone on with her life - that's what would have happened if it had been consensual. Becky's brother said she was "asking for it" in the same breath as he said Ryan was "a thing that shouldn't exist". Are we really considering accepting his interpretation and attitude there as fact? And if it wasn't rape then why would he sayRyan shouldn't exist? Seemed clear he was blaming Becky for being raped (a sadly common attitude), not saying it wasn't actually rape.

Edited May 20, 2016 by LeGrandElephant

[atomationage]

Daniel should watch the original Tea Consent video.  There have been so many parodies of it, that it might be hard to know which one is the original concept.  I think Tommy Lee Royce forced Becky to drink the tea.    The little actor playing Ryan is doing such a good job.  I hope we get another series.

[Diana Berry]

Is there going to be a season 3? According yo Wiki,  Lancashire is saying no to season 3.

[dustylil]

16 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

Is there going to be a season 3? According yo Wiki,  Lancashire is saying no to season 3.

According to some British newspapers (so take the information with a box of salt), there will indeed be a Season 3 but it will be delayed. The source of the delay is not Sarah Lancashire but  writer and creator Sally Wainright.  She  cannot give her full attention to the development of a third season storyline at this point in time.

[Quilt Fairy]

I can well understand why Sarah Lancashire would hesitate to do another season. That's an incredibly exhausting role. She's in probably 90% of the scenes and she's always tussling with suspects or running someone down. And in all that gear, too!

I really don't like how they finished off S2 with that look of concern on her face. It makes things feel unfinished. S1 ended tidily enough that it could well have been one and done, and I would have preferred it if S2 ended neatly as well.  Speaking of that last scene, I have 2 possible interpretations: 1) that she's worried that Ryan will turn out like his father despite everything, and 2) call me crazy here, but she was looking at Daniel and Ryan together, and I wonder if she was starting to wonder if Daniel was Ryan's father. One of the themes of the last ep was incest, and we know that Daniel was having an affair with an ex-girlfriend the entire time he was married, so there's that. Is it possible that regardless of what Becky said, she was covering for her brother, and it wasn't the rape but the incest that traumatized her? Just speculation.

Has anyone mentioned that Katherine Kelly (Lady Mae from Mr. Selfridge) played the woman detective?  Can you imagine what it must be like to be a casting director in the UK? Such a wealth of riches......

[7-Zark-7]

On 4/5/2016 at 8:58 AM, Sonja said:

They never did say if the guy was dead. He could have survived.

 

On 4/5/2016 at 8:58 AM, Sonja said:

Didn't they mention he was alive? I think Catherine's superiour said something along the lines of thim hanging by a thread.

I went back over this and heard no conversation about his condition.

On 4/5/2016 at 2:29 PM, MrsE said:

We had a shot of him lying motionless in the road with eyes wide open, fixed and staring.  The bloke's as dead as a dead thing.

Not so for Doug Stamper in House of Cards.

[molshoop]

On 6/25/2016 at 1:54 AM, 7-Zark-7 said:

They never did say if the guy was dead. He could have survived.

Unlike Doug Stamper, there was nowhere for this character to go except for jail.  So, I think he is dead.

[Kathemy]

I don't know why I never thought of coming here. I frequent several other previously fora, but anyway. We have a full review coverage of this show on Doux as of today, when I wrote the last one. Maybe you'll enjoy it.

Doux Reviews Happy Valley Season 2 Episode 6

[kieyra]

Just finished the second season. I'd put it off for months because S1 was nearly too dark for me. Excellent show either way, and I really enjoyed S2 (although I nearly didn't continue after the goat stuff at the beginning).

I especially loved Catherine's point to Frances that she wouldn't feel the same way about Tommy if he was ugly. It reminded me of how tiring it was to read about people's fascination with the serial killer on The Fall (played by Jamie Dornan). I think it's my least favorite kind of villain, because it reminds me of how irrational human beings become in the presence of someone who pushes their "attraction" buttons, and that's just depressing to think about. (I followed a real life murder trial out of Canada earlier this year, and because the killer had money and was vaguely handsome from some angles, he had a dedicated online groupie defense team.)

Typing it out loud, I can't actually remember much of S1 clearly (although I may rewatch it now), but I assume there was much more of Tommy on-screen and that may be why I liked S2 better (less of him). I suppose that's the line you have to walk when writing a villain--you don't want your audience to loathe him so much they don't even want to watch the show. Have to give the actor due credit there too--I hated every moment he was on-screen.

I see S3 is still up in the air, ish, but I hope the entire A plot won't return to the Royce well. For example, if they spring him from prison on some flimsy excuse, I'm out. 

Bottom line, though, S2 was excellent.

[kieyra]

Yikes, yeah, I'm trying to rewatch S1 and I can't even handle it. The kidnapping/rape, the death of the female cop, and Ryan being a little shit to Catherine. (I mean, I respect that they took the harder choice of NOT making him an angelic cherub, but he's still obnoxious to watch.) 

It's so good, but very hard to watch for a wimp like me. 

[kieyra]

Made it through my S1 viewing, with liberal FF through Tommy's scenes (especially before Ann is rescued). I'm glad I did--there is a ton I missed. I think I may have skipped a few episodes the first time I watched it. I don't think I ever saw Ann drag Catherine out of the basement, and I had completely forgotten Lynn Dewhurst as a character. There is a lot of really, really good stuff there, even if a lot of it is difficult to watch. Amazing character work and performances. This show should get a lot more attention than it does (or at least, than it does in the US). I have a feeling the show title and the image of Catherine in her fluorescent beat cop uniform give people the wrong impression. 

[Guest]

I loved both of these seasons and will look for those other Wainwright shows.  So well written and acted.  

I thought Neal was going to be the killer right up until Daniel suggested it, then I thought it was too early for a character to have that idea, and realized it must be the bullied kid.  Good fake-out, show.  

I didn't love the suggestion at the end that Catherine fears Ryan might be an 'aberration' like the killer, due to his parentage.  She's a cop, she should know these things are not genetic.  Though maybe it's not the genes she fears so much as his realizing he has this awful origin story.  Which I think she is partly responsible for.  Because...

I do think we're meant to believe Daniel's take on Becky's life, not Catherine's.  Catherine has incentive to see Becky as more innocent and more a victim.  Daniel has no incentive to see her as being attracted to this bad boy and playing with fire, unless she was.  For Catherine to see that would suggest she is partly to blame for not being more aware of Becky's life and activities.  

I also have a slight issue with the portrayal of Tommy as being nearly obsessed with Ryan.   It just doesn't ring realistic to me.  Though if he truly cared for Becky, which I'm inclined to believe that claim, I guess it makes a little more sense.  

[Emily Thrace]

On 2014-08-29 at 0:23 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

One thing I thought was a little weird was how much of the drug-related stuff was focused just on pot. Maybe I'm bringing my politics in a little bit here, but it was reminiscent of "reefer madness" a couple of times. For example, there's one incident where a mentally ill man becomes violent while smoked up. Yes, mentally ill people should stay away from intoxicants, but it's hard to view that as a compelling argument for criminalization of weed. And of course, 

  Hide contents

the leader of the kidnap gang seems to deal only in weed. He is a volume dealer, and yes, people at level can be ruthless, but he seemed very well connected to just be dealing pot.

 

There's a reason they call it skunk rather than just pot for one. In the UK they don't grow a lot locally so weed (between the price of real estate and the lack of truly isolated areas it hard to find place to run large scale operations) its fairly expensive and usually cut with some seriously nasty shit so it can actually fuck you up.  (That's why they mention people having hallucinations, not a normal affect of THC) Also even with regular pot there is a direct link between pot use and the rise of schizophrenia so its not actually harmless. It can also do some really fucked up things to people prone to depression or bi-polar disorder.  Not to mention it carries a lot of the same risks to your lungs as regular smoking.

[kieyra]

I've rewatched both seasons a couple of times now, with and without subtitles, and I'm just floored at how good this show is. (Caveat, I still have to skip a lot of Tommy scenes.) I love the writer's rhythm with the dialogue, and the acting is phenomenal. I can't quite figure out how I'm going to get other people to watch this, but I'm going to try. I do hope there's a season 3. 

I pick up more stuff each time I watch it. 

One question, I may have missed this--does Ann explicitly know that Ryan is a result of Tommy raping Catherine's daughter? I found myself wondering that a few times when Ann is at the Cawood house and Ryan is in the scene, I think going back to the first season. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by kieyra

[Emily Thrace]

On 2017-01-28 at 10:26 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

 I didn't love the suggestion at the end that Catherine fears Ryan might be an 'aberration' like the killer, due to his parentage.  She's a cop, she should know these things are not genetic.  Though maybe it's not the genes she fears so much as his realizing he has this awful origin story.  Which I think she is partly responsible for.  Because..

I think its human though and I don't think Catherine is entirely wrong to worry. For one the is a genetic component to Sociopathy and anti social personality disorders. (Which Tommy is definitely has and I will get into that more on that further down.) There is an environmental component to it as well and I think Catherine being aware isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do think the way she goes about it isn't the best but I do think its better than sticking her head in the sand about Ryan's outbursts. Mostly I think they could all use some therapy. I also think the shot at the end wasn't just about Ryan. I think since they included Daniel it was more about Catherine kids in general and what she would and wouldn't do for her boys which is one of the shows larger themes. That or its foreshadowing and one them will do something terrible next season.

Quote

I do think we're meant to believe Daniel's take on Becky's life, not Catherine's.  Catherine has incentive to see Becky as more innocent and more a victim.  Daniel has no incentive to see her as being attracted to this bad boy and playing with fire, unless she was.  For Catherine to see that would suggest she is partly to blame for not being more aware of Becky's life and activities.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle actually. Becky was engaging in high risk behavior and hanging out with the wrong crowd  but Tommy did rape her. I can see how a young girl might be around Tommy and like Tommy but still get in situation where she is saying no or incapable of consenting and he forces himself on her. I wouldn't actually be surprised if Tommy only really get off when there is force involved.

 

Quote

I also have a slight issue with the portrayal of Tommy as being nearly obsessed with Ryan.   It just doesn't ring realistic to me.  Though if he truly cared for Becky, which I'm inclined to believe that claim, I guess it makes a little more sense.  

Tommy doesn't really care about Ryan, he sees Ryan as a reflection of himself and someone he can shape and control. Tommy is actually one of the best portrayals of a sociopath I've ever seen. I don't think he is capable of loving anyone. He doesn't really things to the same extent other people do. He feels enjoyment or frustration but not real anger or love. Even his mother's death was more like a kid whose favourite toy was taken away then anything actually to do with her.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone besides the writer can say what Tommy thinks and feels, and whether he did or didn't rape Becky, so I'm guessing that these are suppositions phrased as facts.  

[Emily Thrace]

20 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think anyone besides the writer can say what Tommy thinks and feels, and whether he did or didn't rape Becky, so I'm guessing that these are suppositions phrased as facts.  

I think one of the great things about the show is that we actually don't need TPTB to tell us how the characters think and feel. They show it very well through the characters actions and reactions. As I've said Tommy is one of the best written sociopaths on television. The calm and calculation  Tommy shows even when he's committing rape and murder is textbook sociopath behavior. To me its as obvious as Catherine's PTSD  or Ryan's anger issues. Catherine has also has explicitly called him a psychopath so its not like I'm pulling this out of thin air. That his pyschopathy is specifically sociopathy is supposition but I really don't think that's much of a leap. Narcissists personality and Anti-Social Personality disorder(which actually would fit season twos serial killer I suspect) while have some similarities to Tommy are missing some specific features. For one those types psychopaths are capable of remorse and guilt. Tommy doesn't even show any for what he did to Ryan.    

Quote

"What we showed wasn’t to make Tommy look tough, it was to make Tommy look like the nasty psychopath that he was."

That's a direct quote form Sally Wainwright. You can read the rest of the interview here. 

[kieyra]

I think they've only cast some subtle doubts on his culpability to demonstrate a few things:

--how dangerous and manipulative sociopaths can be

--how someone like Frances could delude herself into taking his "side" of things

... and with regards to Becky, how difficult it can be for a woman (girl) in the wrong circumstances to not get blamed for her own rape.

I appreciate the gray areas and question marks they leave in there, because it creates more room for conflict, but no, I don't especially take Daniel's view as unbiased--he was clearly carrying a metric fuckton of resentment for Becky being the "favorite". 

Something happened to her that was traumatic enough for her to take her own life. She wasn't "asking" for that.

Edited February 20, 2017 by kieyra

[Emily Thrace]

16 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I wasn't claiming he's not a psychopath.  He clearly is.  I was saying you can't definitively state that he doesn't care about Ryan or did rape Becky.  Even psychopaths can have consensual sex and love a child.  

Some Psychopaths probably could. I just can't think of any evidence that Tommy does. As I have pointed out almost every scene he has in season two indicates he doesn't. With both Ryan and his mother he never speaks of them as people with lives of their own its all about what they haven't done for Tommy.  Your welcome to disagree but I think the show is fairly clear on what Tommy is.

[kieyra]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I hope you don't think I was suggesting she was asking to be raped.  I was suggesting they had consensual sex is all.  People commit suicide for all kinds of reasons besides a rape 9 months prior.  Maybe it was partly post-partum depression.  Maybe it was partly the idea of single motherhood.  We know almost nothing about what was going on with her.  

I get what you're saying, but this just doesn't feel like the kind of show where we're supposed to believe Catherine is *that* much of an unreliable narrator. We know Becky was in with the wrong crowd but we've also seen Catherine tell people repeatedly that she was raped. We've seen her rapist rape others. I think there are supposed to be a few question marks here and there but I don't think that's one of them. We may be in "agree to disagree" territory, though. 

[Emily Thrace]

14 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I like that it's not certain (in my interpretation).  It suggests that Becky herself may also have some 'crazy genes' that got passed down to Ryan.  (Which would support the final scene even more, against my reservations above.)  I figured that's why Daniel's comments were included, because the ambiguity improved the story.  I didn't see Daniel as this horrible, resentful brother willing to lie to tarnish his dead sister's rep with Catherine.  I felt like he was just tired of hearing her distorted version of the story and thought it was time she heard his own take.  I don't think he gave much of a shit what Catherine thought of him at that point.  Becky had incentive to tell her mother it was rape if it wasn't, too.  It also improved the story to me to make Catherine a less reliable narrator.  We wonder just how much she didn't know about Becky.  Or how much won't she admit because it causes her more pain.    

We do know Tommy would rape.  But we also know he was handsome and charming and there are women, especially young ones, who would sleep with him consensually, Frances, for example. 

I wondered if Wainwright weighed in and stumbled on this article, where she says a series 3 about 'Tommy's story' could happen.  

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/happy-valley/news/a789625/happy-valleys-sally-wainwright-james-norton-good-looking-guilty-series-2-tommy-lee-royce/

For the record, I am not one of those who sees Norton/Royce as too good-looking to be guilty.  LOL

I don't think Daniel's comments were the truth either though. For one I think that whole outburst was meant to level the field a bit where Catherine wasn't the only who got drunk and said something awful. For another I doubt he would know more about what happened than Catherine. He would have been away a university, if he was twenty when all this happened. He doesn't seem to be all that close to Becky where she would have told him things and not Catherine. I also think if Becky was unstable Daniel would have brought that up too even if only to call her a crazy bitch. Also Richard supports Catherine and agrees it was rape. I think if Richard had doubts he would have mentioned that after Daniel's outburst.  If only to get Daniel to calm down if nothing else.

In my interpretation Becky was a rebellious teenager who started hanging around with a bunch of druggies and party people that included Tommy. She had a crush on Tommy and even hung out with him a bit. When she tried to leave he forced himself on her. I don't think Tommy would have the patience to really entice someone into bed. Why would he bother when he can just take what he wants? You'll notice he didn't have a girlfriend at the start of season one either. Becky would have had to just jump into bed with Tommy which I don't see her doing. Girls who fall for guys like him have all these romantic ideas about them sharing feelings and fixing him. She was a dumb kid who didn't know she was playing with fire and was trying to piss off her mother. Nothing a 1000 teenagers haven't done Becky just had the misfortune to run across Tommy.

[kieyra]

8 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

In my interpretation Becky was a rebellious teenager who started hanging around with a bunch of druggies and party people that included Tommy. She had a crush on Tommy and even hung out with him a bit. When she tried to leave he forced himself on her. I don't think Tommy would have the patience to really entice someone into bed. Why would he bother when he can just take what he wants? You'll notice he didn't have a girlfriend at the start of season one either. Becky would have had to just jump into bed with Tommy which I don't see her doing. Girls who fall for guys like him have all these romantic ideas about them sharing feelings and fixing him. She was a dumb kid who didn't know she was playing with fire and was trying to piss off her mother. Nothing a 1000 teenagers haven't done Becky just had the misfortune to run across Tommy.

I was thinking about this whole thing again after the conversation here, and one particular line of dialogue really sticks out to me. Daniel says Becky was 'asking for it'.

You don't use the phrase 'asking for it' if innocent, consensual sex has happened. You only use the phrase to indicate someone has brought something bad on themselves. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by kieyra

[kieyra]

One parting thought, I guess (although I was just over in the This is Us forum and I think we're agreeing to disagree about rapey intent over there too, not that I'm actually posting), and I hate to play the gender card,  but to me (as a woman) "she was asking for it" really only means one thing in that particular context--and in a show in which rape is front and center as a recurring theme.

(I was once reprimanded back on TWOP for using the word "uppity" in speaking of two black characters on a show. I'm a blue-dog liberal child of blue-dog liberal parents, I just wasn't sophisticated enough to know that the word had racial undertones. I was referring to the characters being fiercely independent and  refusing to take shit from anyone, *including their own family members*. In fact, I was bemoaning that they were no longer as assertive as they'd been in past seasons. I still feel bad about the faux pas years later, but the fact remains that I had no idea or context as to why the word was problematic. And even that doesn't matter; I'm sure people at the time (and reading this right now) think I was acting out subconscious racism that I absorbed from societal cues. It doesn't feel like I was, but who knows WTF my subconscious has been programmed with.)

I don't think Daniel is an awful person, but I do think he was drunk and in emotional distress, and the show was using him as a mouthpiece to explain why women who've been raped are often just out of luck with regards to how they will be perceived afterwards. Hence Catherine's ice-cold "Right." at the end of his speech. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by kieyra

[kieyra]

Oh, and on a more meta level...

 I was reading some U.K. based forums about season 2 when it aired. It's amazing how different people perceive the show differently. A lot of them thought the acting was terrible and that Sarah Lancashire mumbled too much. And then quite a few refused to believe the sheep-farmer kid had committed the murders--they came away from the penultimate episode believing that he was innocent--even after his mother shot him. They were so convinced, it had me doubting my own understanding and I had to watch everything again.

[Emily Thrace]

On 2017-02-23 at 10:16 PM, kieyra said:

One parting thought, I guess (although I was just over in the This is Us forum and I think we're agreeing to disagree about rapey intent over there too, not that I'm actually posting), and I hate to play the gender card,  but to me (as a woman) "she was asking for it" really only means one thing in that particular context--and in a show in which rape is front and center as a recurring theme.

I don't think Daniel is an awful person, but I do think he was drunk and in emotional distress, and the show was using him as a mouthpiece to explain why women who've been raped are often just out of luck with regards to how they will be perceived afterwards. Hence Catherine's ice-cold "Right." at the end of his speech. 

That what I thought as well.  That Daniel was a way for Sally Wainright to address women being blamed for their own rape. Daniel's word are such a textbook example of that crap that I completely dismissed it. I also agree that Daniel isn't an awful person. I don't even think he really meant what he said, he was just trying to hurt Catherine.  He actually seems to be a lot like his mother. With a lot or righteous anger and a nasty temper but a very caring kind heart underneath it. He just bottles it up a lot more than Catherine does. That's why he acts out in such extreme ways.

Speaking of Daniel, I really liked the scene with him and Anne in season 2. There is a level of understanding there that makes an interesting combination. I also think they could probably both use a peer that understands their history. I like the idea of them as a romantic pair but I wonder if that might be a little to neat for this type of show.

[Emily Thrace]

On 08/11/2014 at 1:47 PM, Meander said:

 

oh my god, it's Raquel.  I knew I was familiar with the actress, but never realising it was Raquel.... 

Yeah I didn't figure that one either although I knew she looked familiar. I watched Last Tango in Halifax and this and I've watched Corrie since I was a kid. (Although Raquel was a before my time by a bit). I think its her voice that threw me off Raquel had such a breathy little voice, totally different from Catherine's deep rough tones or even Caroline's clipped posh accent.

[kieyra]

Season 3 wishlist:

--Daniel and Ann--they have pretty decent chemistry.

(That said, it struck me after a couple of viewings that Daniel spends all of season 3 at Catherine's house because he was cheating on his wife, and he bonds with Ryan a bit but makes no mention of his own newborn child back at home. No one including Catherine has time to think about that kid. But I wonder if the showrunners decided Daniel's story would be more interesting, going forward, if he wasn't saddled with a wife and kid, so just shoved them aside.)

--They mention Illinka (sp) is staying in town and got a job. Wouldn't mind seeing how things go for her.

--What happened to Richard?

--I liked DI Jodi Shackleton a lot, she can come back. And Joyce, and Shafiq.

--Need at least one scene between Catherine and Alison (mother of S2 serial killer). I assume she'll be in jail.

--Can Clare finally catch a break and get a job? 

--I've grown fond of the club with the bad musical cover acts, hope to see it again. 

--Neil can come back, something about the actor's voice bugs, but he knocked that drunk-rage scene out of the m'f'ing park. He wrecked it. Reminded me of my alcoholic grandfather.

--I know this is unlikely but I'm okay with there being no more Tommy Lee Bloody Royce. Since he'll have a harder time getting an accomplice now, all they can do to raise the stakes is have him escape from prison or be released early, and I'd rather have a different villain. I'm so tired of him just saying "ugly nasty bitch whore" over and over again, while weeping dribbly snotty crocodile tears for the mother he used to beat, although that's what I get for endless rewatches of S2. 

I need more of this show soon. I'm going to have to go back to Last Tango in Halifax, which I didn't like nearly as much.

[kieyra]

(Now I'm back on Last Tango in Halifax and I think part of the farmhouse interior for Gillian's house is the same place they shot the final farmhouse scene with Alison shooting her son in HV S2. Maybe it's all the same farm.)

Edited March 25, 2017 by kieyra