Arya Stark: Valar Morghulis

[spottedreptile]

Cersei is the only main relevant antagonist left for Arya to kill. So how will Arya despatch Cersei? Whom would she impersonate in order to get close to the queen? How does she get past the Mountain? Do Arya and the Hound team up for this one? I'm interested because Arya's fate is not laid down in, well, you know.

[Luckylyn]

My theory is the reason Arya while disguised as the servant girl was eyeing Jaime was that she was planning to kill him, steal his face, and use that disguise to get close enough to Cersei to kill her.  If Jaime separates with Cersei because of her action in the finale than that would force Arya to come up with another plan to get to Cersei.  I think Arya will have to take out the Mountain before she could get to Cersei.

[jeansheridan]

My favorite Ayra bits are when she's with Sandor.  He's a bit of a twisted Uncle figure, but he ultimately treats her with respect.  I really hope they get to meet again (maybe over The Mountain's properly dead body). 

[OhOkayWhat]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

My favorite Ayra bits are when she's with Sandor.  He's a bit of a twisted Uncle figure, but he ultimately treats her with respect.  I really hope they get to meet again (maybe over The Mountain's properly dead body). 

These were my favorite Arya scenes in the show too. I think they made him like some kind of confidant, I mean, she has a lot of issues in her mind and I think, he can help her with a lot of that if they reunite and talk.

Edited July 10, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[paigow]

On 08/07/2016 at 6:00 PM, Luckylyn said:

My theory is the reason Arya while disguised as the servant girl was eyeing Jaime was that she was planning to kill him, steal his face, and use that disguise to get close enough to Cersei to kill her. 

Having the face seemingly gives you all the other attributes magically...height, weight etc...so would she lose her right hand as well?

[Luckylyn]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Having the face seemingly gives you all the other attributes magically...height, weight etc...so would she lose her right hand as well?

I hadn't thought of that.  Would that put her at a disadvantage?  I suppose the could train to use only her other hand in a fight to get prepared for using Jaime's face.

[Hecate7]

On 7/29/2016 at 10:15 AM, Luckylyn said:

I hadn't thought of that.  Would that put her at a disadvantage?  I suppose the could train to use only her other hand in a fight to get prepared for using Jaime's face.

Arya is left-handed.

[scrb]

So it's been a real slow build from season 1, when she started compiling a list of those whom she'd kill for what they've done to her family.

She's started her revenge tour with a bang and while it was a long time coming, is it concerning how easily she massacred the Freys?  There was no discrimination or presumably any hesitation.  She wanted to get everyone involved with the Red Wedding.

Vengeance may feel satisfying, even cathartic, to Arya but is there a reason to be concerned for her soul?  She's a mass killer now and she's just moving on down her list, with psychopathic efficiency.

Another concern, is she only killing those whom see deems culpable or is she also killing bystanders to achieve her goals?  For instance, she must have killed the server girl whose face she used to get close to Waldor Frey?

She made it sound like she's killing on behalf of her family, telling the witnesses that "The North remembers ... winter came for House Frey."  But would Jon or Sansa agree to her ninja assassinations strategy?  One might say her eye for an eye ethos is no more just than Omar Little's "The man got to be got" pursuit of Stringer Bell.

[Athena]

20 minutes ago, scrb said:

For instance, she must have killed the server girl whose face she used to get close to Waldor Frey?

She probably stole that face from the Faceless Men and perhaps used it as her alias to travel back to Westeros and into the Frey home. We've seen Arya struggle and disobey her assassination orders and she doesn't kill just anyone. In the scene where she kills all the Freys, she does not kill Walder's wife and there are female servants who are not harmed (I think). I do not think she killed the Lannister soldiers. I think that scene was the first in a long time that showed Arya still remembered family and a more innocent time.

It's hard to say what her siblings think. To be honest, they have all been through to much to judge. Jon probably won't condone it in the sense since he's a battle and honour man. Sansa has reached a point where survival is all that matters and she is not going to weep any tears over people who murdered her mother and brother. She is probably glad that the Lannisters are down another ally. Bran probably knows all and has other supernatural things to worry about. As Jon also mentioned, Ned taught them to deliver justice, they must do it themselves. Arya is doing a twisted form of it.

Arya's character reminds me of the Edmond Dantes in the Count of Monte Cristo who spends decades suffering in prison and developing a revenge plan. He is able to take down all those who connived to put him in jail. Hers is a classic revenge story in that way. It doesn't mean she is a good person.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Athena said:

She probably stole that face from the Faceless Men and perhaps used it as her alias to travel back to Westeros and into the Frey home. We've seen Arya struggle and disobey her assassination orders and she doesn't kill just anyone. In the scene where she kills all the Freys, she does not kill Walder's wife and there are female servants who are not harmed (I think). I do not think she killed the Lannister soldiers. I think that scene was the first in a long time that showed Arya still remembered family and a more innocent time.

Yeah, there must have been another face on the wall before she put the Waif's there. I would've thought her making a point to spare the Frey wife and serving girls would settled this question, but apparently not. The show wouldn't have make a stand about refusing to murder Lady Crane only to have her murder an innocent person offscreen like it was nbd. All of her killings have been about personal motives (or self-defense, in the case of the stable boy) so if she ever does kill someone just for the hell of it there's no way the show wouldn't make that MEH explicitly clear. If it's just about the gruesomeness of her methods, what about Sansa feeding Ramsay to his own dogs while he was still alive? And Jon was ready to beat Ramsay to death with his fists and must have helped Sansa with the dog-feeding after she asked him where Rams was. He wasn't being all clean and honorable once he finally got his hands on Rickon's murderer/Sansa's rapist. So, no, I don't think either of them would be that disapproving of poisoning men who were all culpable in the Red Wedding and were cheering about their part in it moments before their deaths, especially not Sansa, who believes treason should never go unpunished.

I thought it was interesting that fewer women died at this massacre (fewer as in 0) than at the Red Wedding, where 3 women died, Talisa, Cat, and the previous Lady Frey, who was murdered by Catelyn. And it's the Stark wives whose murders Arya emphasizes, never naming Robb, even though she never even met her sister-in-law. One could say this was a meaningless attempt at girl power, and I'm not saying it's not, just that I think it all points away from her murdering an innocent girl offscreen not long after refusing to murder Lady Crane. 

Also, I don't think all the girls in that scene were serving girls. I think I recognized this girl

. 

Does she not look just like one of the daughters Robb had to apologize to? If so, Arya spared Walder's newest wife and his daughters. And probably some underage sons/grandsons too, seeing as all those killed in this scene looked to be grown men. We know Walder had one very young daughter from said apology scene (he made a crack about Robb clearly being too impatient to wait for her to be childbearing age), so why not little boy Frey sons? 

ETA: Arya!Walder also says this was their second feast in a less than a fortnight (referring to the feast with Jaime in the finale), meaning she's been wearing his face for 7-13 days. (The wife must have already been confused by the lack of groping.) And who knows how many she was there before killing Walder? She had plenty of time to learn all the details of the Red Wedding as any expert avenger would. (The Freys never shut up about it.) And if some of the sons/grandsons had to travel home (with the line about gathering every Frey who means a damn) then she must have known their names to send them messages. She knew not only that she had a murdered sister-in-law, but that Talisa was pregnant when murdered. All of which is to say yes, I think  all of those Freys who cheered for the Red Wedding actually had taken part in it. There were a lot of people murdered that day, in that hall alone, not even counting the camps. Lothar and Black Walder didn't do that all on their own. (And yes, they were Frey family members, not just Frey soldiers. there's two different lines from Arya!Walder calling them family, besides the one about every Frey worth a damn.)

Edited July 21, 2017 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

http://www.vulture.com/2017/07/game-of-thrones-season-7-why-do-we-root-for-arya.html

[Lady S.]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

http://www.vulture.com/2017/07/game-of-thrones-season-7-why-do-we-root-for-arya.html

Dany's crucifixions served a utilitarian purpose? Here all this time we thought it was just making things worse. And I don't get anyone can honestly question whether the audience would cheer Rickon as a murder machine, even considering that he's younger than Arya. Most of the fandom love I've seen for Rickon were unrealistic fantasies of him coming back from cannibal island as a wild bad-ass.

Ftr, I did think Meryn Trant's murder was way too gruesome and I don't like that they felt the need to insert Frey pies into Arya's story, but I see both things as a symptom of the show's love of gore and shocking reveals moreso than a point about Arya turning toward evil. Funny how I've never seen book fandom call Wyman Manderly a psycho for his Frey pies and his position that the only good Frey is a dead Frey.

[Constantinople]

7 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Most of the fandom love I've seen for Rickon were unrealistic fantasies of him coming back from cannibal island as a wild bad-ass.

I had such hopes

* weeps *

I can see the utilitarian argument for crucifying the masters, but that wasn't the argument Dany, which was vengeance cloaked as justice.  In any case, I think the costs outweighed the benefits, which perhaps what Ser Barristan was implying when he argued for mercy.

As for Arya, as far as I recall, she's only killed in self-defense or to avenge her friends or family.

[Lady S.]

Just now, Constantinople said:

 

I can see the utilitarian argument for crucifying the masters, but that wasn't the argument Dany, which was vengeance cloaked as justice.  In any case, I think the costs outweighed the benefits, which perhaps what Ser Barristan was implying when he argued for mercy.

In any case, I think it's hard to argue she didn't get off on it, just as Arya did with the Freys. It's just funny because this was actually reminding of the endless debates about whether Dany is going mad (my position is still a no) and this article is the first time I've seen claim Dany is somehow less bloodthirsty than Arya.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 7/29/2016 at 4:14 AM, paigow said:

Having the face seemingly gives you all the other attributes magically...height, weight etc...so would she lose her right hand as well?

Couldn't she just wear a gold glove that makes her hand look like Jaime's prosthetic hand?  She would only need to keep the disguise up long enough to get to Cersei.  She could fight with both hands at that point, if she had to get past someone (e.g., The Mountain) to get to her.  If it is just Cersei she could kill her with no hands.  

[Bryce Lynch]

On 7/21/2017 at 3:29 PM, Lady S. said:

Dany's crucifixions served a utilitarian purpose? Here all this time we thought it was just making things worse. And I don't get anyone can honestly question whether the audience would cheer Rickon as a murder machine, even considering that he's younger than Arya. Most of the fandom love I've seen for Rickon were unrealistic fantasies of him coming back from cannibal island as a wild bad-ass.

Ftr, I did think Meryn Trant's murder was way too gruesome and I don't like that they felt the need to insert Frey pies into Arya's story, but I see both things as a symptom of the show's love of gore and shocking reveals moreso than a point about Arya turning toward evil. Funny how I've never seen book fandom call Wyman Manderly a psycho for his Frey pies and his position that the only good Frey is a dead Frey.

I thought Dany crucifying the masters served justice, vengeance and had a utilitarian purpose.  They deserved to be crucified for crucifying the innocent children, so it was just.  Dany got vengeance on them by doing it, and it was also a warning to any other enemies not to try to pull something similar, lest she do the same (or worse) to them.   People cruel enough to crucify innocent children cannot comprehend mercy.  They would have seen it as weakness.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 7/21/2017 at 3:51 PM, Lady S. said:

In any case, I think it's hard to argue she didn't get off on it, just as Arya did with the Freys. It's just funny because this was actually reminding of the endless debates about whether Dany is going mad (my position is still a no) and this article is the first time I've seen claim Dany is somehow less bloodthirsty than Arya.

I guess I don't see what is wrong in getting satisfaction in seeing the truly wicked get what the deserve.  I don't think either is particularly bloodthirsty, but both do seem to enjoy hurting and killing extremely evil enemies. 

[Bryce Lynch]

On 7/21/2017 at 3:29 PM, Lady S. said:

Dany's crucifixions served a utilitarian purpose? Here all this time we thought it was just making things worse. And I don't get anyone can honestly question whether the audience would cheer Rickon as a murder machine, even considering that he's younger than Arya. Most of the fandom love I've seen for Rickon were unrealistic fantasies of him coming back from cannibal island as a wild bad-ass.

Ftr, I did think Meryn Trant's murder was way too gruesome and I don't like that they felt the need to insert Frey pies into Arya's story, but I see both things as a symptom of the show's love of gore and shocking reveals moreso than a point about Arya turning toward evil. Funny how I've never seen book fandom call Wyman Manderly a psycho for his Frey pies and his position that the only good Frey is a dead Frey.

You could argue Trant's killing was overly gruesome, but he did murder Syrio (while trying to abduct her, to likely be killed) and torture her sister.  

Frey's killing was poetic justice and it fit perfectly with the Rat Cook  legend that Bran told at the Nightfort.  To the people of Westoros, what the Frey's did at the Red Wedding was an abomination , because he had the Stark's slaughtered after granting them guest rights, which the Rat Cook tale explains is worse than murder.  

Arya understood this.  That is why when she met the Lannister soldiers on the road, she initially refused their offer of food, because if she accepted it, she couldn't kill them.  Once she decided they were OK guys (after one of them said the thing about being kind to strangers and they'll be kind to you), she decided she wouldn't kill them and accepted the food.  

[TaurusRose]

I will never not enjoy Arya killing Trant or the Freys.  They all deserved exactly what they got, and Arya gets props for killing them using methods similar to those that got them on her list in the first place.  Trant loved beating and hurting girls, including St. Sansa.  Walder Frey gloated about murdering Starks, abused Robb's corpse and killed a wolf trapped in a pen unable to defend itself. The wolf killing alone earns those fuckers a special place in hell as far as I'm concerned. So, I say: go, Arya. Burn every name on your list.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

I will never not enjoy Arya killing Trant or the Freys.  They all deserved exactly what they got, and Arya gets props for killing them using methods similar to those that got them on her list in the first place.  Trant loved beating and hurting girls, including St. Sansa.  Walder Frey gloated about murdering Starks, abused Robb's corpse and killed a wolf trapped in a pen unable to defend itself. The wolf killing alone earns those fuckers a special place in hell as far as I'm concerned. So, I say: go, Arya. Burn every name on your list.

Yes yes yes! I still cannot watch the red wedding, it's to painful...I've been disturbed for years on how Greywind died :( damn them all IMO

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I know GRRM made comparisons between Lyanna and Arya multiple times, but they are not the same person.  They both share many Northern traits because both of them were raised in the North.  Arya looks up to and respects both Ned and Jon and I think that in some ways she wants to be just like them.  But in many ways I feel Arya acts a lot like Catelyn.  Both are stubborn, impulsive, pushy, holds onto grudges, and thinks about family.  I feel that Arya is influenced by both her parents and not by her dead aunt.

I also think that Ned very much loved Lyanna.  He is also worried that Arya will share his sister's fate.  Before his conversation with Arya, she ran off and was missing for a few days.  I think a lot of emotion clouded his assessment that Arya is like Lyanna.  I also think emotion clouded Ned's judgment in regards to Robert and his brother Brandon also. 

In one way Lyanna and Arya are very different.  Lyanna ran away rather than be with Robert.  Arya wanted Gendry to make swords for her family.  Arya wanted to be with Gendry and Lyanna didn't want to be with Robert. 

Arya doesn't act very much like Catelyn, imo. The differences between their beliefs, mindsets, values, are too deep and fundamental. Catelyn was happy and thankful that her father arranged her a "good match", her ego was flattered, she embraced the social norms for women. The mere idea of marrying a lord had Arya state "it's not me", and she rejects those same norms. Catelyn held a grudge against an innocent child who offended her ego. Arya holds grudges against people who hurt and killed people she loved. Catelyn thinks of family as her blood only. Arya thinks of family as her pack, which goes beyond her blood family, not necessarily includes it, but includes misfits as well. In this respect she's, again, a lot like Ned (his friendship with Robert).

Arya acts like someone with wolf blood. Brandon was rash and impulsive and stubborn, that's why he went to KL to ask the Mad King for his son's head and he got killed. Lyanna was rash and impulsive and stubborn, and as a result she died. Running off and missing is pure wolf blood, and that's why Ned mentioned it. I don't think that anyone says that Arya and Lyanna are the same person. I do believe that she's more of a rebel than Lyanna was, and less soft. But they do look alike physically and have that wolf blood in common; it isn't only that they were raised in the North since Sansa was, too, and she doesn't share those traits. Arya's stay with the Faceless Men taught her to temper it, though.

I fail to see how Lyanna not wanting to be with Robert and Arya wanting to be with Gendry shows they're different; Arya and Gendry weren't in an arranged marriage so it's comparing apples and oranges. Actually, the only thing I find here is yet another similarity.  Arya wanted to be with Gendry, against social conventions. Lyanna didn't want to be with Robert, against social conventions.

Had Arya been in the same situation as Lyanna and Catelyn, betrothed to a man she didn't want, I bet she'd have eloped like her aunt...if the Starks were lucky, and she didn't stick her intended with the pointy end. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Lady S.]

On 3/16/2018 at 4:04 PM, Happy Harpy said:

Arya doesn't act very much like Catelyn, imo. The differences between their beliefs, mindsets, values, are too deep and fundamental. Catelyn was happy and thankful that her father arranged her a "good match", her ego was flattered, she embraced the social norms for women. The mere idea of marrying a lord had Arya state "it's not me", and she rejects those same norms. Catelyn held a grudge against an innocent child who offended her ego. Arya holds grudges against people who hurt and killed people she loved. Catelyn thinks of family as her blood only. Arya thinks of family as her pack, which goes beyond her blood family, not necessarily includes it, but includes misfits as well. In this respect she's, again, a lot like Ned (his friendship with Robert).

Arya acts like someone with wolf blood. Brandon was rash and impulsive and stubborn, that's why he went to KL to ask the Mad King for his son's head and he got killed. Lyanna was rash and impulsive and stubborn, and as a result she died. Running off and missing is pure wolf blood, and that's why Ned mentioned it. I don't think that anyone says that Arya and Lyanna are the same person. I do believe that she's more of a rebel than Lyanna was, and less soft. But they do look alike physically and have that wolf blood in common; it isn't only that they were raised in the North since Sansa was, too, and she doesn't share those traits. Arya's stay with the Faceless Men taught her to temper it, though.

I fail to see how Lyanna not wanting to be with Robert and Arya wanting to be with Gendry shows they're different; Arya and Gendry weren't in an arranged marriage so it's comparing apples and oranges. Actually, the only thing I find here is yet another similarity.  Arya wanted to be with Gendry, against social conventions. Lyanna didn't want to be with Robert, against social conventions.

Had Arya been in the same situation as Lyanna and Catelyn, betrothed to a man she didn't want, I bet she'd have eloped like her aunt...if the Starks were lucky, and she didn't stick her intended with the pointy end. 

This is also very much something Catelyn does, which Ned is not so much known for. BookNed told Arya that if she had to hate, she should hate those who meant them real harm. but he was not a very hateful person himself. His grudges against the Lannisters predated their crimes against his family and even as he refused to make peace with them, he never had vengeful fantasies either. Catelyn and Arya both did very much share those fantasies. BookCat even gives a list of names of people she wants dead and says that Ned never took joy from killing, but she would. That line always makes me think of Arya.

Rash and impulsive? Not so much Ned, who pointedly does not include himself in the wolf blood comparison, but I'm sure I've seen those words used to criticize his wife. I'd agree that Arya's rashness manifests more like Lyanna's, seeing as Ned was referring to her defense of Micah which is not unlike her aunt's defense of Howland Reed, but that doesn't mean it can't be something she has in common with her mother too. It's not a 1:1 comparison and it's not like people are copies of one particular relative. Is it really so wild for people who aren't fans of Catelyn to acknowledge that her children all had traits in common with both herself and Ned? I can think of one time Catelyn acted impulsively in defense of someone outside her family, when she saved Brienne from the guards trying to kill her for Renly's death, which in the book involved hitting one of the men in the head herself.

By same situation do you mean an unwanted marriage arranged by her beloved father? Because though Arya would not be as dutiful as her mother was, she also would never want to cause her father pain and his opinion/approval meant a lot to her (as did her mother's, for that matter). So I highly doubt she'd elope exactly as her aunt did (which y'know, did not end well for Lyanna's father or eldest brother, not to mention Lyanna herself), nor that she'd straight-up murder Ned's intended ally, and Idt that 8/11yo Arya was thinking all that when she said "that's not me". More like she'd argue until Ned refused to force her, because they had a better relationship than Lyanna/Rickard. Arya and Cat were both Daddy's girls, (the difference being that fulfilling her father's traditional expectations came easier to Catelyn and her father's favoritism was likely dependent on that), but I think we can all infer that Lyanna most likely was not. 

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

This is also very much something Catelyn does, which Ned is not so much known for. BookNed told Arya that if she had to hate, she should hate those who meant them real harm. but he was not a very hateful person himself. His grudges against the Lannisters predated their crimes against his family and even as he refused to make peace with them, he never had vengeful fantasies either. Catelyn and Arya both did very much share those fantasies. BookCat even gives a list of names of people she wants dead and says that Ned never took joy from killing, but she would. That line always makes me think of Arya.

Rash and impulsive? Not so much Ned, who pointedly does not include himself in the wolf blood comparison, but I'm sure I've seen those words used to criticize his wife. I'd agree that Arya's rashness manifests more like Lyanna's, seeing as Ned was referring to her defense of Micah which is not unlike her aunt's defense of Howland Reed, but that doesn't mean it can't be something she has in common with her mother too. It's not a 1:1 comparison and it's not like people are copies of one particular relative. Is it really so wild for people who aren't fans of Catelyn to acknowledge that her children all had traits in common with both herself and Ned? I can think of one time Catelyn acted impulsively in defense of someone outside her family, when she saved Brienne from the guards trying to kill her for Renly's death, which in the book involved hitting one of the men in the head herself.

By same situation do you mean an unwanted marriage arranged by her beloved father? Because though Arya would not be as dutiful as her mother was, she also would never want to cause her father pain and his opinion/approval meant a lot to her (as did her mother's, for that matter). So I highly doubt she'd elope exactly as her aunt did (which y'know, did not end well for Lyanna's father or eldest brother, not to mention Lyanna herself), nor that she'd straight-up murder Ned's intended ally, and Idt that 8/11yo Arya was thinking all that when she said "that's not me". More like she'd argue until Ned refused to force her, because they had a better relationship than Lyanna/Rickard. Arya and Cat were both Daddy's girls, (the difference being that fulfilling her father's traditional expectations came easier to Catelyn and her father's favoritism was likely dependent on that), but I think we can all infer that Lyanna most likely was not. 

So, "Arya doesn't act very much like Catelyn" (my words) = Arya has nothing in common with Catelyn? I was answering to someone who said that Arya was "influenced by both her parents [mainly Catelyn] and not her dead aunt", so of course I stressed the differences between Arya and her mother.

"Rash and impulsive" is a trait of people with wolf blood, which rather excludes Ned, which is why I talked of Brandon and Lyanna (hence, Arya not only influenced by Ned either). Arya has wolf blood, which is in sync with her mother's rash and impulsive streak and makes the latter more prominent.

Arya fought the crown's prince at 8/11, so in spite of my last sentence intending to have a certain humorous tone, I wouldn't discard any possibility so easily. That Arya would elope or argue to avoid an arranged marriage are both speculation.  But it seems that we can agree on the fact that, unlike Catelyn who was flattered and happy by the marriage her father broke for her (the one with Brandon) Arya would refuse the idea. She and her mother are fundamentally different here, just like they are fundamentally different because Catelyn can resent her enemies as well as an innocent child, whereas Arya only resents her enemies.

In conclusion, a child is a mix of many things. It just happens that imo, Arya takes more defining traits after the Northern side of her family and she certainly isn't a "mini-Catelyn". Personally, the only Stark kid who makes me think of their mother on a regular basis is Sansa, both for her bad and good traits. When she faced Miranda, I thought of Brienne's words about the kind of strength that was Catelyn's.

By the way, Catelyn helping Brienne wasn't rash and impulsive. It was brave. (No need to be a fan to recognize a character's good moments or qualities.)

Edited March 31, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Sunshinegal]

18 hours ago, Lady S. said:

This is also very much something Catelyn does, which Ned is not so much known for. BookNed told Arya that if she had to hate, she should hate those who meant them real harm. but he was not a very hateful person himself. His grudges against the Lannisters predated their crimes against his family and even as he refused to make peace with them, he never had vengeful fantasies either. Catelyn and Arya both did very much share those fantasies. BookCat even gives a list of names of people she wants dead and says that Ned never took joy from killing, but she would. That line always makes me think of Arya.

Rash and impulsive? Not so much Ned, who pointedly does not include himself in the wolf blood comparison, but I'm sure I've seen those words used to criticize his wife. I'd agree that Arya's rashness manifests more like Lyanna's, seeing as Ned was referring to her defense of Micah which is not unlike her aunt's defense of Howland Reed, but that doesn't mean it can't be something she has in common with her mother too. It's not a 1:1 comparison and it's not like people are copies of one particular relative. Is it really so wild for people who aren't fans of Catelyn to acknowledge that her children all had traits in common with both herself and Ned? I can think of one time Catelyn acted impulsively in defense of someone outside her family, when she saved Brienne from the guards trying to kill her for Renly's death, which in the book involved hitting one of the men in the head herself.

By same situation do you mean an unwanted marriage arranged by her beloved father? Because though Arya would not be as dutiful as her mother was, she also would never want to cause her father pain and his opinion/approval meant a lot to her (as did her mother's, for that matter). So I highly doubt she'd elope exactly as her aunt did (which y'know, did not end well for Lyanna's father or eldest brother, not to mention Lyanna herself), nor that she'd straight-up murder Ned's intended ally, and Idt that 8/11yo Arya was thinking all that when she said "that's not me". More like she'd argue until Ned refused to force her, because they had a better relationship than Lyanna/Rickard. Arya and Cat were both Daddy's girls, (the difference being that fulfilling her father's traditional expectations came easier to Catelyn and her father's favoritism was likely dependent on that), but I think we can all infer that Lyanna most likely was not. 

Agree.  I also like that you made the comparison that both Arya and Cat are "daddy's little girl".  I also think that Cat is Hoster's favorite child while Arya was Ned's favorite.

Since Ned loves both Lyanna and Catelyn it is possible that Lyanna and Catelyn have some traits in common.  They are both strong women.  And both women love thir child(ren) and want them to be safe.

You are right that Arya cared about her parents' approval.  In the books while she was traveling with the Brotherhood, she was worried that her mother didn't want her because of her unkempt appearance and tried to fix her hair.  

Also Catelyn saw Littlefinger as a little brother.  She asked Brandon to not kill him in their duel and trusted his opinion even though she hasn't seen him for years. Catelyn did care about Littlefinger even though he wasn't a blood relative.

16 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

So, "Arya doesn't act very much like Catelyn" (my words) = Arya has nothing in common with Catelyn? I was answering to someone who said that Arya was "influenced by both her parents [mainly Catelyn] and not her dead aunt", so of course I stressed the differences between Arya and her mother.

"Rash and impulsive" is a trait of people with wolf blood, which rather excludes Ned, which is why I talked of Brandon and Lyanna (hence, Arya not only influenced by Ned either). Arya has wolf blood, which is in sync with her mother's rash and impulsive streak and makes the latter more prominent.

Arya fought the crown's prince at 8/11, so in spite of my last sentence intending to have a certain humorous tone, I wouldn't discard any possibility so easily. That Arya would elope or argue to avoid an arranged marriage are both speculation.  But it seems that we can agree on the fact that, unlike Catelyn who was flattered and happy by the marriage her father broke for her (the one with Brandon) Arya would refuse the idea. She and her mother are fundamentally different here, just like they are fundamentally different because Catelyn can resent her enemies as well as an innocent child, whereas Arya only resents her enemies.

In conclusion, a child is a mix of many things. It just happens that imo, Arya takes more defining traits after the Northern side of her family and she certainly isn't a "mini-Catelyn". Personally, the only Stark kid who makes me think of their mother on a regular basis is Sansa, both for her bad and good traits. When she faced Miranda, I thought of Brienne's words about the kind of strength that was Catelyn's.

By the way, Catelyn helping Brienne wasn't rash and impulsive. It was brave. (No need to be a fan to recognize a character's good moments or qualities.)

I want to stress that Arya and Sansa are influenced by both their parents.  Neither Arya or Sansa are a mini catelyn or a mini ned.  I think that Arya's northern traits is because of Ned's influence and perceptions and has nothing to do with Lyanna since she never met lyanna.  

Catelyn doesn't resent jon.  She accepted that Ned had an affair and even accepted that a child can come out of an affair.  She fears that Jon or his heirs can take her children's birthright away from them.  

[Happy Harpy]

11 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I want to stress that Arya and Sansa are influenced by both their parents.  Neither Arya or Sansa are a mini catelyn or a mini ned.  I think that Arya's northern traits is because of Ned's influence and perceptions and has nothing to do with Lyanna since she never met lyanna.  

Catelyn doesn't resent jon.  She accepted that Ned had an affair and even accepted that a child can come out of an affair.  She fears that Jon or his heirs can take her children's birthright away from them.  

Again, Ned himself compares Arya to Lyanna and Brandon because of her wolf blood. It's written in black and white that Arya and Lyanna are similar (not the same, similar). It doesn't matter that she never met her aunt; for example some kids take temper or idiosyncrasies after grandparents who were dead before the kids were born.

Catelyn couldn't stand the sight of Jon, insisted over and over he be sent away from the only family he had, refused he sat with the family, rejected him at every turn, constantly glared at him (show), threw him out of his comatose little brother's room and forbade him a last proper goodbye before he left for the Wall, oh, and she wished him dead. In what world is that not resent? No matter her reasons, which imo amount to her hurt ego and pride (notably because Jon looked more like Ned and a Northerner than her own sons) anyway, it was already stone-hearted to take her petty insecurities out on a motherless and innocent child. And to stay on topic, here lays precisely one of the most fundamental differences between Arya and Catelyn. Arya doesn't give a shit about birthright, Arya doesn't give a shit about social status, hers or others', Arya doesn't resent people for the sin of their fathers, but for their own. Unlike Sansa, Arya didn't follow Catelyn's treatment of Jon because it isn't her mindset and it isn't her values.

Just in case, I didn't mean to imply that you called Arya a mini-Catelyn (I mentioned it in another paragraph so I hoped it was clear enough) it's an argument I've seen elsewhere.

On a slightly different note, I really liked how D&D had Arya take over Lady Stoneheart's role (I suppose it will be hers) in eliminating House Frey while denying the theories which claimed that Arya would become as soulless and crazy as the thing that used to be her mother. Stoneheart hanged everyone, no matter if they were involved or not, whereas Arya only killed those who helped slaughter her family. And then, the scene with the Lannister soldiers showed that she was still able to see a good person behind the armor they wear. That's why I can relate to Arya, I think. No matter how bloodily brutal, ruthless and unforgiving she can get, she doesn't follow blindly social norms or religious dogmas. She stays true to her own sense of justice, which is based on a rather keen sense of right and wrong, and decides herself.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[anamika]

Arya's journey recap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtjjp148W4Q&feature=youtu.be

[Nanrad]

On 7/9/2016 at 10:31 PM, jeansheridan said:

My favorite Ayra bits are when she's with Sandor.  He's a bit of a twisted Uncle figure, but he ultimately treats her with respect.  I really hope they get to meet again (maybe over The Mountain's properly dead body). 

Did you watch the premiere? 

[jeansheridan]

I am slow returning to this forum, but yep. They are still my favorite duo. The Wolf and the Hound. I know the Hound started off the show also killing a child but ever since he saved Sansa from suicide I liked him. 

[scrb]

Of course it's fitting that Arya saves the world.  They've been grooming her for this from the start.

Wouldn't be surprised if she's the one who takes out Cersei too.

[Spartan Girl]

Some people are upset that Arya was the one to dispatch NK after the show supposedly built up Jon as the supposed vanquisher for years.

Um, yeah, have you been watching this show for the past eight years? It always goes for the surprises and subverted tropes. They built up Robb and Ned as the supposed heroes only to kill them off, how is this any different.

Arya Stark, the First of her Name, Rider of Bulls, Queen of Dawn, Azor Ahai, the Prince that Was Promised...I love it!

[scrb]

Like the NK was going to let Jon or any warrior wielding a big Valeryian sword to get near him.

He'd just raise wights and let them swarm any potential threat to him.

This was the only way it could work, Arya getting close by stealth and then the NK not seeing her as a threat because of her size, rather than pushing her away and setting the Whitewalkers or a few hundred wights on her.

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Rider of Bulls

and Lover of Smiths 😄

Seriously, I am looking forward to Arya being able to express her emotions more often.

[Bryce Lynch]

Rewatching the episode, it was clear that Melisandre was telling Arya to go kill the Night King, when her and Arya spoke about her earlier prophecy about closing eyes forever, brown, green and blue.  It was also clear that Arya understood.   I didn't get this on my first time watching.

It was also obvious from the way she stared at Arya when she first came through the gates that she had a purpose for Arya.   

I guess, Melisandre's ability to understand prophecies improved a lot since her Stannis days.  

[Bryce Lynch]

So whose face will Arya wear to kill Cersei?

A few possibilities.

a) Littlefinger, though Cersei may have already heard he is dead.

b) Qyburn

c) Harry Strickland

d) The Mountain, after the Hound kills him.  This would be the ultimate test of her faceless man impersonation skills.

e) Euron

f) Bronn.  I hope this doesn't happen.  But, in the unlikely event that Bronn really tries to kill the Lannister Brothers, I could see Arya killing him and bringing Cersei the "good news" that her brothers are dead.

[Luckylyn]

How GOT Hinted the Arya Twist

[haje]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So whose face will Arya wear to kill Cersei?

A few possibilities.

a) Littlefinger, though Cersei may have already heard he is dead.

b) Qyburn

c) Harry Strickland

d) The Mountain, after the Hound kills him.  This would be the ultimate test of her faceless man impersonation skills.

e) Euron

f) Bronn.  I hope this doesn't happen.  But, in the unlikely event that Bronn really tries to kill the Lannister Brothers, I could see Arya killing him and bringing Cersei the "good news" that her brothers are dead.

I really don't see them giving Arya the Cersei kill since they gave her the NK one. And I personally would not want them to go there either because a selfish part of me knows there will be backlash from certain fans if they give her both and frankly, I would rather not wade through all the internet discourse regarding it. Also, I think post-NK kill, the rest of her story is going to be her learning to let go of that list. 

I do think they're going to have her and the Hound kill the Mountain together (or at least have her help him out in some way). They are clearly building up that relationship again for a reason. 

Anyway, huge fan of Arya killing TNK. I do think it could have been executed better but I have zero issues with her being the one to do it. In a way, I'm glad because it almost makes her time in Braavos worth it and I know that was a chore to sit through so at the very least they found a way to make it matter. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by haje

[BooBear]

6 hours ago, haje said:

Anyway, huge fan of Arya killing TNK. I do think it could have been executed better but I have zero issues with her being the one to do it. In a way, I'm glad because it almost makes her time in Braavos worth it and I know that was a chore to sit through so at the very least they found a way to make it matter. 

Same here. A lot of times when a woman does such things in movies it isn't earned. But in this case... Arya has been training for years in the exact thing that was needed, small sneaky assassin. Rather than brutish hard fought battle. Those claiming that it was too quick / easy, I get it, but one of the great and bizarre things about life is that great evil can be defeated easily in a heartbeat. We have seen this in the real world.  Finally the show was called "game of thrones" glad it is getting back to the game part. 

I also feel that the writers either sufficiently set it up or very well went back and looked at the show to decide she was a good pick.  I also feel it helps make some resolution to her time in Bravos, where it seems, the many faced god just let Arya go. Why would that be ok? Well now we know. 

I don't think Arya will take Cersi out. Remember the finale is described as bittersweet. I think that applies to Arya as well. She will save the world but not get to complete her list. 

[Hanahope]

The video makes a great point about how the original Lightbringer was 'tempered in the blood of Azur's love, his wife", and the valerian steel dagger Arya used was essentially the cause of the deaths of her mother and father (because it was used to try and kill Bran, whom Littlefinger then framed Tyrion), and thus could be said to have been tempered in the blood of her love, her parents.

[FemmyV]

Early on: he repeatedly calls her "Boy."

3:53 "my tongue lied, my eyes shouted the truth."

So, Arya went beyond Syrio and lied with her eyes. Pretty cool.

[BooBear]

Something else I was thinking about, I felt like there was a massive plot hole at the end of season 6 when Arya just "left" Jaqen H'ghar and the assassins order. Jaqen H'ghar actually smiles when Arya says that she is NOT "no one" she is Arya Stark and she is going home. Why would Jaqen H'ghar ever be happy about that?  This always bothered me because are you telling me that he would just allow her to be trained, kill the waif, and then, tell him basically to go to hell- and this would make him happy?  Then, these people would just never come after her? Why? Is it ok to make a fool out of the many faced god? The entire plot was all about Arya accepting that she was no one and at the disposal of whatever they told her to do. But at the end she says nope and walks away? 

Arya taking out the night king perfectly solves that plot hole. Jaqen H'ghar and the many faced god would want Arya motivated to go home and use her skills on the night king.  Not to mention that there clearly seems to have been a purpose to assign her to go after the actress in the play about her life. That play was meant to remind Arya of the importance of her family and instill a desire in her to go home. 

[scrb]

That whole season of dreary scenes of Arya training was almost made up for by her taking out the NK.

Almost.

You knew she was destined for greatness and she had to pay her dues going through that miserable time.  

Horrible to watch but she learned what she was made of, literally fighting for her life.

[MadameKillerB]

5 hours ago, scrb said:

That whole season of dreary scenes of Arya training was almost made up for by her taking out the NK.

Almost.

My husband and I always joked about the descriptions for the episodes when Arya would be training. He'd say stuff like, "Arya learns HVAC," or "Arya trains with master calligraphist." Good times.

[bijoux]

Arya’s comment about Daenerys not being one of them reads as odd in retrospect. I’m not saying she isn’t allowed to be distrustful (although I would appreciate an explanation for it at some point), but the wording doesn’t gel with the Arya who’s gone to Essos due to her interactions with Syrio and Jaqen, and has expressed a wish to explore more.What’s west of Westeros? She just doesn’t read as excusionist to me.

[scrb]

Now would Arya have kept going back to Gendry for sexy times if he wasn't made a lord?

Sure she may never be a Lady but would she have settled for high-born girlfriend to a bastard/commoner?

Or she sees a greater role for herself than being any man's woman?

Like she still working on that list?

Or maybe Gendry didn't meet her expectations?

[QuinnM]

8 minutes ago, scrb said:

Now would Arya have kept going back to Gendry for sexy times if he wasn't made a lord?

Sure she may never be a Lady but would she have settled for high-born girlfriend to a bastard/commoner?

Or she sees a greater role for herself than being any man's woman?

Like she still working on that list?

Or maybe Gendry didn't meet her expectations?

I always thought that Gentry felt he didn't meet her highborn status.  Still weeping over the time she asked him to come to Winterfell and told him 'she could be his family' and he told her then, she would always be milady.  

The proposal came from a lot of things and one of those was Arya but most of those were Gentry hitting the highborn lottery.  It was still a little sad but she was so sweet about it.  He'll be fine.  And who knows where the future is.  This is a little like WWI and most of the highborn lads are dead.  Some nice ladies out there looking for a match.

[bijoux]

Yes, I think she would have kept going back for a while at least.

[Affogato]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:41 PM, scrb said:

Now would Arya have kept going back to Gendry for sexy times if he wasn't made a lord?

Sure she may never be a Lady but would she have settled for high-born girlfriend to a bastard/commoner?

Or she sees a greater role for herself than being any man's woman?

Like she still working on that list?

Or maybe Gendry didn't meet her expectations?

he wanted a wife. That wasn’t her. 

There could have been a number of reasons.

[Affogato]

On 5/8/2019 at 1:32 AM, bijoux said:

Arya’s comment about Daenerys not being one of them reads as odd in retrospect. I’m not saying she isn’t allowed to be distrustful (although I would appreciate an explanation for it at some point), but the wording doesn’t gel with the Arya who’s gone to Essos due to her interactions with Syrio and Jaqen, and has expressed a wish to explore more.What’s west of Westeros? She just doesn’t read as excusionist to me.

Remember she said she was going home. She might have let go of her list and stayed with Sansa. I think finding out Jon was Targaryen was the last straw, so to soeak. You can’t go home again! 

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Remember she said she was going home. She might have let go of her list and stayed with Sansa. I think finding out Jon was Targaryen was the last straw, so to soeak. You can’t go home again! 

I think her saying that on the road to KL simply meant that she didn't expect to live after killing Cersei, so she didn't expect to go back to Winterfell.  It wasn't that she wouldn't or didn't want to if she was still alive, which she doubts.

I think she would certainly, at least, drop in occasionally.

Her world is bigger now though, I can't see her living the rest of her life in Winterfell.

11 minutes ago, Affogato said:

he wanted a wife. That wasn’t her. 

There could have been a number of reasons.

Yes, including that some women simply do not want to marry anyone.  If Ayra did ever choose to marry, I can't see it being Gendry.  She never wanted to be "lady" of a house.  Gendry is sweet, but honestly, he's not in her class as far as knowledge, experience, or skills.

[Heckler52317]

I really hope Arya is done killing. I was growing weary of her dead eyes duck lipped super assassin persona, but the interaction with Sandor made it all worthwhile. Do you suppose Bran worged that horse to her?