Jon Snow: He Knows Nothing

[Spartan Girl]

This really was Jon's season to shine. He comes back from the dead, reunites with Sansa, takes back Winterfell for the Starks, and is crowned King of the fucking North. And to top it all off, R+L=J is now officially canon!

Speaking of which, they sure made that baby look like him. Those moody brown eyes, LOL.

[Enigma X]

I am just quickly responding to some Jon stuff in the thread for the finale episode. (running out the door)

I think that Jon will die before the series is over but not before emerging from dragonfire, eventhough he was burned but not to a crisp before.

Personally, I want Jon to be among the last standing. I don't think that will be the case.

[SimoneS]

 It seems clear to me that Jon is destined to sit on the Iron Throne, most likely as Daenerys' heir. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by SimoneS

[arjumand]

This is such an amazing video -it's just a masterpiece of editing, music, everything. It tells us all we need to know about Jon Snow.

Re. what I think will become of him - I don't actually think he's going to die, at least not in the tv show (and if GRRM takes any longer, the books are going to be moot). See, he's already died. If he died again, we'd just shrug and say: "Priest / Priestess of R'hllor on Aisle 5, please!" It doesn't make any narrative sense to kill him, even if it's a wondrous scene of self-sacrifice, because we've been there, done that.

[PatsyandEddie]

Thank you for the link! I certainly appreciate the sharing of such creativity. Jon has always been my favourite character both in the books and on the show along with Arya. They have strength  but it is tempered with vulnerability. I hope they are still standing at the end. 

[paigow]

On 04/07/2016 at 6:51 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Speaking of which, they sure made that baby look like him. Those moody brown eyes, LOL.

Casting Call: Male caucasian babies needed - 3 mths or younger. Must be introverted, lethargic, sad and mopey. Contact HBO with photo. 

[Luckylyn]

[bunnyblue]

Watching those 2 awesome Jon videos reinforces my belief that no actor on GOT has a more physically demanding role than Kit Harington. He has been getting the crap kicked out of him since S1 and each subsequent season the battles and beatings and sword fighting have gradually gone up to insane levels. I can only imagine what awaits Kit/Jon in S8 (I think he might get a reprieve from fighting in S7 as he concerns himself with running a kingdom). I wonder if he had any idea how physically taxing the role would be when he got the part. 

Something I've been wondering about since the whole ToJ reveal is what would have happened to baby Jon if Arthur Dayne had defeated Ned? I doubt Arthur could have or would have served on Robert's Kingsguard since he was Rhaegar's bff. So, would Arthur have taken Jon to Starfall and left him to be raised by Ashara, while he lived the hermit life like Obi-Wan Kenobi? Watching over Jon from afar and telling him his true parentage when Jon reach adulthood? Would he have pressed Jon's claim to the Iron Throne? Or would Arthur have taken him to Essos and raised him himself like Connington did with fAegon? Would he have sought out Viserys and Dany and left Jon with them? Or protected all 3? Would he have taken Jon to Winterfell and entrusted Benjen to raise him and keep the secret? I'm fascinated thinking about how different Jon's life would have been if Dayne had been the victor at the ToJ instead of Ned. Would it have been better or worse?

[Ambrosefolly]

Here is my thing, whether he was raised as Ned Stark's bastard or by Rhaegar, along side his brother and sister (who knows if Lyanna would have survived, even if there was a Maester on hand) at the Red Keep as a true born, one way or another, I believe that he would have joined the Night's Watch. Maybe Elia wouldn't be as much of a bitch to Jon as Cat was, but House Martell wouldn't tolerate the possibility of Jon usurping either of Elia's children, considering one of them was a girl, and I think Rhaegar had an idea about the big bad in the north and would have strongly suggested that Jon join the Night's Watch to fulfill Rhaegar's Big Destiny. 

[ulkis]

On 6/29/2016 at 10:29 PM, Mathius said:

I think the show dun goofed royally by not including Robb's will legitimizing Jon as his heir back in Season 3.  That would have made Jon becoming KITN make SO much more sense than Lyanna Mormont changing her tune from "you're not a Stark, you're a bastard" to "I don't care if he's a bastard, he's still our king!"  If Jon becomes KITN in the books, I'm pretty damn sure it'll be due to Robb's will.

They didn't even need to do it in season 3, someone could have just whipped it out and said your brother legitimized you. Too bad, it would have been a nice moment. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by ulkis

[Ambrosefolly]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

Elia and her children were dead - doomed the moment Aerys decided to keep Rhaegar's children hostages in Kings' Landing. Jon would have been most likely been raised with Viserys and Daenerys. 

This is if Rhaegar survived and won the Battle of the Trident.  I think he was better off with Ned and his children. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Jazzy24]

52 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

This is if Rhaegar survived and won the Battle of the Trident.  I think he was better off with Ned and his children. 

I like Rhaegar. But I'm glad Ned raised Jon, I wouldn't have it any other way. 

[Ambrosefolly]

Just now, Jazzy24 said:

I like Rhaegar. But I'm glad Ned raised Jon, I wouldn't have it any other way. 

I meant that he was better off with Ned, vs being on the run with Viserys and Dany. It could have been a wash with Rhaegar.

[evilmindatwork]

3 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I meant that he was better off with Ned, vs being on the run with Viserys and Dany. It could have been a wash with Rhaegar.

I think Jon was definitely better off being raised by Ned than with Viserys and Dany. BUT, even if Rhaegar had lived I am not sure he would've been better off with the man who raped his mother. I say this, not because it's the Stark story about Lyanna, but because Ned had to fight his way into see Lyanna when she clearly wanted to see him. If Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, wouldn't she have just told his men, "hey, I want to see my brother before I die. Please let him come in?"

[Hecate7]

13 minutes ago, evilmindatwork said:

I think Jon was definitely better off being raised by Ned than with Viserys and Dany. BUT, even if Rhaegar had lived I am not sure he would've been better off with the man who raped his mother. I say this, not because it's the Stark story about Lyanna, but because Ned had to fight his way into see Lyanna when she clearly wanted to see him. If Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, wouldn't she have just told his men, "hey, I want to see my brother before I die. Please let him come in?"

Not necessarily. She might have assumed that he'd be accompanied by Robert, her jilted fiance, and that upon winning, Ned would try to force her to wed Robert, or that Robert would put a sword through Jon, or both.

I don't think she or Rhaegar had any idea that she'd die in childbirth. They probably thought they'd have plenty of time to fix things and set the records straight, later.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Hecate7

[Ambrosefolly]

She did ask Ned if she was dreaming and told him she missed him. And those guards saw that Ned wasn't with Robert, but probably didn't know about their prior argument.  I don't think she was kidnapped but think (or hope?) that she found out about Rhaegar's own brand of crazy too late. I do think Rhaegar wasn't trying to be cruel. I fully believe the stories about him singing to the common folk, but I also think he might have been too wedded to his idea about his destiny to see Lyanna in distress over her family.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Jazzy24]

20 minutes ago, evilmindatwork said:

I think Jon was definitely better off being raised by Ned than with Viserys and Dany. BUT, even if Rhaegar had lived I am not sure he would've been better off with the man who raped his mother. I say this, not because it's the Stark story about Lyanna, but because Ned had to fight his way into see Lyanna when she clearly wanted to see him. If Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, wouldn't she have just told his men, "hey, I want to see my brother before I die. Please let him come in?"

To be fair to the Kingsguard they probably had just heard about the murders of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. They also probably thought Robert had something to do with their rape and brutal murders and Ned was Robert's ally who helped overthrow the Targs. They probably thought that Ned had something to do with it. 

Their main priority was protecting the baby and their we're not going to just let Ned Stark walk into the place where Rhaegar's son was. 

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, evilmindatwork said:

I think Jon was definitely better off being raised by Ned than with Viserys and Dany. BUT, even if Rhaegar had lived I am not sure he would've been better off with the man who raped his mother. I say this, not because it's the Stark story about Lyanna, but because Ned had to fight his way into see Lyanna when she clearly wanted to see him. If Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, wouldn't she have just told his men, "hey, I want to see my brother before I die. Please let him come in?"

I think she did choose to run away but that doesn't mean she really had much choice in matters once they were shacked up. Obviously Dayne was following Rhaegar's orders instead of Lyanna's wishes, so I don't give Rhaegar too many points for not being the guy Robert thought he was. That's a rather low bar, and I think the point is just that Robert was wrong about Lyanna, not that Robert was wrong to kill Rhaegar. If Rhaegar had won, Ned would possibly be dead along with Robert, Rickard and Brandon, and Rhaegar's victory wouldn't have meant Lyanna would survive the birth without a maester. There's no doubt in my mind that Jon was better off raised with his mother's surviving family, than as a bastard/spare heir in King's Landing with a nicer stepmother.

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I think she did choose to run away but that doesn't mean she really had much choice in matters once they were shacked up. Obviously Dayne was following Rhaegar's orders instead of Lyanna's wishes, so I don't give Rhaegar too many points for not being the guy Robert thought he was. That's a rather low bar, and I think the point is just that Robert was wrong about Lyanna, not that Robert was wrong to kill Rhaegar. If Rhaegar had won, Ned would possibly be dead along with Robert, Rickard and Brandon, and Rhaegar's victory wouldn't have meant Lyanna would survive the birth without a maester. There's no doubt in my mind that Jon was better off raised with his mother's surviving family, than as a bastard/spare heir in King's Landing with a nicer stepmother.

It is a low bar, but once the war broke out that was a game changer. Rhaegar probably meant for there to be a maester. He undoubtedly did not mean to imprison Lyanna indefinitely, but rather kept her in the tower to keep her safe until the war's end. His victory would probably have meant that a maester was present at the birth, among other things.

[Ambrosefolly]

8 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

It is a low bar, but once the war broke out that was a game changer. Rhaegar probably meant for there to be a maester. He undoubtedly did not mean to imprison Lyanna indefinitely, but rather kept her in the tower to keep her safe until the war's end. His victory would probably have meant that a maester was present at the birth, among other things.

If Rhaegar didn't mean for war to break out, then he was pretty damn stupid. At the very least, he should have known all hell would have broken loose, one way or another. Say, her family didn't discover she was missing and didn't know who had taken her for a while, they would still postpone everything to look for her. If it was discovered later that Rhaegar had poached the fiancé of his cousin Robert, when he already had the daughter of one of the great houses, Rhaegar would have lost a lot of the esteem that he had managed to secure for himself. (Add to that Robert's parents died looking for a wife for him). Robert probably would have aligned with the Lannisters (in probably a much happier marriage to Cersei) as Twyin would have started plotting revenge because his own daughter was slighted not once, but twice. The Martells would be pissed, as a son that could usurp their granddaughter had come from another house and that Elia would be forced to swallow this insult. Rickard and the Starks would be angered that not only was a marriage alliance broken in a completely disrespectful and sneaky matter, but Lyanna's children (sons in particular) wouldn't be in direct line to any house in Westros, forget Storm's End.   All lords from houses great and small would demand that they take their mistresses as second or even third wives and if they did conduct wedding services, would the Royal House raise an army to stop all of them? Someone did witness Lyanna leaving with Rhaegar, and from that moment, the shit was really going to hit the fan, because House Stark would want its daughter back post haste.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

If Rhaegar didn't mean for war to break out, then he was pretty damn stupid. At the very least, he should have known all hell would have broken loose, one way or another. Say, her family didn't discover she was missing and didn't know who had taken her for a while, they would still postpone everything to look for her. If it was discovered later that Rhaegar had poached the fiancé of his cousin Robert, when he already had the daughter of one of the great houses, Rhaegar would have lost a lot of the esteem that he had managed to secure for himself. (Add to that Robert's parents died looking for a wife for him). Robert probably would have aligned with the Lannisters (in probably a much happier marriage to Cersei) as Twyin would have started plotting revenge because his own daughter was slighted not once, but twice. The Martells would be pissed, as a son that could usurp their granddaughter had come from another house and that Elia would be forced to swallow this insult. Rickard and the Starks would be angered that not only was a marriage alliance broken in a completely disrespectful and sneaky matter, but Lyanna's children (sons in particular) wouldn't be in direct line to any house in Westros, forget Storm's End.   All lords from houses great and small would demand that they take their mistresses as second or even third wives and if they did conduct wedding services, would the Royal House raise an army to stop all of them? Someone did witness Lyanna leaving with Rhaegar, and from that moment, the shit was really going to hit the fan, because House Stark would want its daughter back post haste.

While all this is very true, I think Rhaegar could have talked his way out of some of these situations. He'd have suffered some loss of reputation, but I think he assumed that the magic created by assembling all three heads of the dragon, would compensate him amply for that. He may have been going a little bit mad, because of the prophecy. Had people not murdered Elia, Rhaegar could have assured her family that Elia's son was the heir, and that she had lost no place at court. A grand gift to her and another to her family, would have appeased them. Perhaps some lands or a chest of rich jewels.

The Starks would have been shocked at the polygamous marriage of Lyanna, but if they had not instantly declared war, I think Rhaegar would have settled things with them very differently, pointing out that their families were now joined and presenting them with some jointure fitting a princess. The Tourney at Harrenhal was his way of proposing and announcing the engagement. I won't be surprised if it turns out that Rhaegar and Lyanna DID leave a note explaining themselves, but Robert destroyed it. I think had the horrible execution of the Starks not happened, and the war not started, Rhaegar would probably have held a massive celebration for his wedding to Lyanna, in which gifts would have been presented and conciliatory gestures made to all of the offended parties, with the possible exception of Robert Baratheon, whom he would have defeated in fair combat.

I don't think families all over Westeros would demand polygamous marriage, but if they did, I don't think Rhaegar would have opposed it at all. It had been accepted at one time as a kingly privilege, but the general thinking by polygamous parties is that if everyone's willing and the husband can afford it, great! The first wife's children still take precedence over the others. China, Japan, and ancient Israel had polygamous emperors or kings for centuries and nobody minded. Society did not collapse.

Tywin is the real problem in the picture, and really needed to just take several seats, as did Robert Baratheon. Robert's marriage to Cersei would have been miserable no matter what the circumstances, because he was really in love with Lyanna, and couldn't believe she didn't return his feelings, and because Cersei is a sociopath in love with her brother. Robert would have rubbed her the wrong way soon enough, and she'd have retaliated, and they'd have been enemies. It was inevitable.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Hecate7

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

While all this is very true, I think Rhaegar could have talked his way out of some of these situations. He'd have suffered some loss of reputation, but I think he assumed that the magic created by assembling all three heads of the dragon, would compensate him amply for that. He may have been going a little bit mad, because of the prophecy. Had people not murdered Elia, Rhaegar could have assured her family that Elia's son was the heir, and that she had lost no place at court. A grand gift to her and another to her family, would have appeased them. Perhaps some lands or a chest of rich jewels.

The Starks would have been shocked at the polygamous marriage of Lyanna, but if they had not instantly declared war, I think Rhaegar would have settled things with them very differently, pointing out that their families were now joined and presenting them with some jointure fitting a princess. The Tourney at Harrenhal was his way of proposing and announcing the engagement. I won't be surprised if it turns out that Rhaegar and Lyanna DID leave a note explaining themselves, but Robert destroyed it. I think had the horrible execution of the Starks not happened, and the war not started, Rhaegar would probably have held a massive celebration for his wedding to Lyanna, in which gifts would have been presented and conciliatory gestures made to all of the offended parties, with the possible exception of Robert Baratheon, whom he would have defeated in fair combat.

I don't think families all over Westeros would demand polygamous marriage, but if they did, I don't think Rhaegar would have opposed it at all. It had been accepted at one time as a kingly privilege, but the general thinking by polygamous parties is that if everyone's willing and the husband can afford it, great! The first wife's children still take precedence over the others. China, Japan, and ancient Israel had polygamous emperors or kings for centuries and nobody minded. Society did not collapse.

Tywin is the real problem in the picture, and really needed to just take several seats, as did Robert Baratheon. Robert's marriage to Cersei would have been miserable no matter what the circumstances, because he was really in love with Lyanna, and couldn't believe she didn't return his feelings, and because Cersei is a sociopath in love with her brother. Robert would have rubbed her the wrong way soon enough, and she'd have retaliated, and they'd have been enemies. It was inevitable.

Letter? Just leaving a note for anyone to find? I highly doubt it. If that was the case, then they both were stupid not to send a sealed letter directly to Rickard. There was no indication that Rhaeger gave a proposal to Rickard, who was very much alive and got to decide the marriages of all of his children, unless they decided to join the Sept, Citadel or the Night Watch (or go off to be sells swords somewhere). If I am going by Lena Headley, Cersei really did want to love Robert, but Robert putting Lyanna on a pedestal and calling out her name nicked that. If he saw Lyanna willingly marry someone as their second wife when she could have been a first wife to him (with a lordship for their first born son that would far outstrip anything Rhaegar could have given to her child), him and Cersei would be bound by their mutual desire to stick it to Rhaegar and Lyanna, which might have been the not have had the hearts and flowers of Rhaegar/Lyanna/Elia, but would have produced its own satisfaction, plus Jaime would be in King's Landing. Yes, Elia's son would be the heir, but what about her daughter? The Martells might be okay with multiple lovers, but as I pointed out previously, they would not be okay with Jon usurping Rhaenys,because not only is she a Martell, they also observe absolute primogeniture.

We aren't just talking about Kings getting multiple wives, but Lords as well, and I am sure they will be a good amount of Olenna Tyrells and Cersei Lannisters being married to the same husband, each trying to make sure their son becomes Lord, one way or another. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[YaddaYadda]

17 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I like Rhaegar. But I'm glad Ned raised Jon, I wouldn't have it any other way. 

I think Jon would have ended up like Aegon with Jon Connington had Arthur Dayne survived the duel at the Tower of Joy. The stories are kind of similar, both babies in the care of someone who cared very deeply about Rhaegar. Jon Connigton was in love with the guy, and Arthur was the best friend. I think that the King's Guard had their instructions as to what they had to do should something happen to Rhaegar. 

Had Jon somehow ended up with Viserys and Dany, I think Viserys would have just killed him. Who do the houses throw their support behind? The son of the Mad King who shows the same signs as his father, or the son of a prince who was beloved by all (except for Robert)?

In the end, Ned taking him was probably the best possible outcome and the most stable life Lyanna could have wished her son to have.

[Ambrosefolly]

27 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think Jon would have ended up like Aegon with Jon Connington had Arthur Dayne survived the duel at the Tower of Joy. The stories are kind of similar, both babies in the care of someone who cared very deeply about Rhaegar. Jon Connigton was in love with the guy, and Arthur was the best friend. I think that the King's Guard had their instructions as to what they had to do should something happen to Rhaegar. 

Had Jon somehow ended up with Viserys and Dany, I think Viserys would have just killed him. Who do the houses throw their support behind? The son of the Mad King who shows the same signs as his father, or the son of a prince who was beloved by all (except for Robert)?

In the end, Ned taking him was probably the best possible outcome and the most stable life Lyanna could have wished her son to have.

I don't think Viserys would kill Jon. I really think at the end of the day, Viserys was a scared 3 year old that just wanted to go home without the fear of being assassinated and if he had to use Jon right to the throne to be the face of that instead himself, so be it. I agree Viserys was terrible, but not only did his mother die, leaving no one to properly care for him, he was tasked with raising his baby sister from infancy, with Baratheon assassins on his tail.   He probably would have subconsciously resented Jon for representing the Rebellion that dethroned his family as he probably resented Dany for their mother dying in childbirth. He might have  tried to force Jon into some marriage to get some money or ships. If Jon was spirited away with Dany and Viserys, (and everyone knowing who he was) House Stark would have to pay a heavy price and might have forced Ned to go to war with Robert, while Benjen and/or other banner men might have be sent to either retrieve or take care of Jon and by extension Dany and Viserys.

[Jazzy24]

4 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I don't think Viserys would kill Jon. I really think at the end of the day, Viserys was a scared 3 year old that just wanted to go home without the fear of being assassinated and if he had to use Jon right to the throne to be the face of that instead himself, so be it. I agree Viserys was terrible, but not only did his mother die, leaving no one to properly care for him, he was tasked with raising his baby sister from infancy, with Baratheon assassins on his tail.   He probably would have subconsciously resented Jon for representing the Rebellion that dethroned his family as he probably resented Dany for their mother dying in childbirth. He might have  tried to force Jon into some marriage to get some money or ships. If Jon was spirited away with Dany and Viserys, (and everyone knowing who he was) House Stark would have to pay a heavy price and might have forced Ned to go to war with Robert, while Benjen and/or other banner men might have be sent to either retrieve or take care of Jon and by extension Dany and Viserys.

I think Viserys was 8yrs old when Robert's Rebellion happened. And I don't excuse his actions but I sympathized more with Viserys than any other character besides Catelyn. Viserys was there for all of Robert's Baratheon, he saw the downfall of his house, the death of his brother, niece, nephew, sister-in-law, parents. Plus he had the responsibility of the Targaryen legacy and taking care of his sister. Viserys didn't deserve that, it broke him  

 

And if if it wasn't for Ned Jon would have had that equally stressful, abusive life. Ned is also lucky that Jon inherited the Stark looks, Jon looking like Ned really helped the story that Jon is his son.  

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I think Viserys was 8yrs old when Robert's Rebellion happened. And I don't excuse his actions but I sympathized more with Viserys than any other character besides Catelyn. Viserys was there for all of Robert's Baratheon, he saw the downfall of his house, the death of his brother, niece, nephew, sister-in-law, parents. Plus he had the responsibility of the Targaryen legacy and taking care of his sister. Viserys didn't deserve that, it broke him  

 

And if if it wasn't for Ned Jon would have had that equally stressful, abusive life. Ned is also lucky that Jon inherited the Stark looks, Jon looking like Ned really helped the story that Jon is his son.  

I thought he said he was five. That's awfully young. I don't think he'd have killed Jon--Jon was younger. Unless it could be established that Rhaegar's son came first, I think Viserys and Jon might have been brotherly. Viserys snapped under the pressure of being the lost heir, the "true king," after so much trauma.

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I thought he said he was five. That's awfully young. I don't think he'd have killed Jon--Jon was younger. Unless it could be established that Rhaegar's son came first, I think Viserys and Jon might have been brotherly. Viserys snapped under the pressure of being the lost heir, the "true king," after so much trauma.

I don't think he would have killed Jon either. But he defiantly would have abused him like he did Dany :-( 

Plus Viserys didn't need another baby/child to look after. 

I get people thinking that the Targs deserved the downfall they got but Aerys was probably the only one who should have suffered. The majority of the Targs were innocent children who didn't deserve what they got. And I see what a horrible job Robert did and I get so mad. 

 

Rhaella, Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Dany, and Jon, KL and others all suffered and lost too much unfairly for me to ever think that Robert's Rebellion was just. 

[Ambrosefolly]

6 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I don't think he would have killed Jon either. But he defiantly would have abused him like he did Dany :-( 

Plus Viserys didn't need another baby/child to look after. 

I get people thinking that the Targs deserved the downfall they got but Aerys was probably the only one who should have suffered. The majority of the Targs were innocent children who didn't deserve what they got. And I see what a horrible job Robert did and I get so mad. 

 

Rhaella, Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Dany, and Jon, KL and others all suffered and lost too much unfairly for me to ever think that Robert's Rebellion was just. 

And that is partly why, I kind of despise Rhaegar, the Singing Prince. Shit was going to hit the fan when he overrode Rickard's betrothal for his daughter when the guy already had a wife (and taking multiple spouses by the royal family hadn't been practiced for several generations), by just running off with. I honestly don't give a shit about whatever prophecy he was trying to fulfill at the time. As of right now, Jon Snow himself doesn't have any magically powers (that have been shown on the show, and not to the extent of Dany and Bran), the Lord of Light (that seems to demand people be burned alive as gifts, so fuck him too) could have found another way (and maybe he did, through Dany).

I think Ned would have preferred if only Aerys was killed and Aegon taking the throne with Elia ruling as regent. He was disgusted with Robert when he saw the bodies.

Quote

The Tourney at Harrenhal was his way of proposing and announcing the engagement.

Wasn't that the time they met? Frozen made fun of that premise of getting engaged to a man you just met. 

Edited July 14, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[TxanGoddess]

The whole back story is certainly full of human frailty.

When Sansa was in the crypt at Winterfell before she married Ramsay;  Littlefield said something that I thought summed things up pretty well.  Like how many people ended up dying just because Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

The whole back story is certainly full of human frailty.

When Sansa was in the crypt at Winterfell before she married Ramsay;  Littlefield said something that I thought summed things up pretty well.  Like how many people ended up dying just because Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

Yeah, it's human and humans are flawed. I don't think the books leave much doubt that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, she was probably the last thing on his mind right before he died. I think that he missed what was happening in the present, did not think of the consequences of his actions in the immediate future at all because he was preparing for the threat to come, the long night, the battle for the dawn, things that had already happened and were going to happen again.

On the one hand, I'm like he's such an idiot. And then I'm like well he likely believed there was a threat coming and he needed to get ahead of it. As it stands, the Night's Watch is scrambling, the North isn't really all that prepared for the fight.

I wouldn't be surprised that had he lived, he might have tried to hatch dragons too since that seems to run in the family.

But in preparing for one thing by bringing forth the PTWP whether it ends up being Jon or Dany, or both of them together, it was a way to try and protect the realm, except the realm got fucked pretty hard. 

I'll probably get trounced for this, but I think Jon and Rhaegar kind of seem to have some similar personality traits.

Edited July 14, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

And that is partly why, I kind of despise Rhaegar, the Singing Prince. Shit was going to hit the fan when he overrode Rickard's betrothal for his daughter when the guy already had a wife (and taking multiple spouses by the royal family hadn't been practiced for several generations), by just running off with. I honestly don't give a shit about whatever prophecy he was trying to fulfill at the time. As of right now, Jon Snow himself doesn't have any magically powers (that have been shown on the show, and not to the extent of Dany and Bran), the Lord of Light (that seems to demand people be burned alive as gifts, so fuck him too) could have found another way (and maybe he did, through Dany).

I think Ned would have preferred if only Aerys was killed and Aegon taking the throne with Elia ruling as regent. He was disgusted with Robert when he saw the bodies.

Wasn't that the time they met? Frozen made fun of that premise of getting engaged to a man you just met. 

Rhaegar don't IMO deserve much of the blame that goes to Aerys and Jon Arryn. 

When Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's heads that was the point of no return. I think that if was saner than Robert's Rebellion would have never happened. But it happened which had no positive effects IMO. 

Robert, the Lannisters and Jon Arryn have all been much worse for Westeros than Aerys ever were. 

Rhaegar has his huge share of the blame but he's not the only one. 

[TxanGoddess]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I'll probably get trounced for this, but I think Jon and Rhaegar kind of seem to have some similar personality traits.

Not by me, but I am not nearly as familiar with the books as most of you.  From the show though, I feel like they've portrayed Jon as having a pretty common pattern of cognitive distortion, the term for which escapes me, but basically, "If only this one condition was met, then I could be happy/satisfied/content/etc."  and psychologically, of course, what typically happens if the person doesn't reorder their thoughts is that once the condition is met, its not enough and they reset on something else and continue to be unhappy dependent on another new sitaution.  I mean, Jon did have some crap sandwich things that he couldn't control in his early life, clearly we can't all be little Sartres living pure existentialism, but the progression I saw was "If I could be a real Stark/know about my mother" then "If I could join the Night's Watch", onto "If I could be a Ranger" and you can follow onwards.  That's why Ygritte was so good for him, and why he was actually happy being with her, because she made him live as much in the moment as we've seen thus far.  And because they were in love too, but it's a chicken and egg situation imo.

So from what I hear, it does sound like Rhaegar thought similarly about the prophecy and the future of the realm.  But I am only drawing this analogy from other people's reports.   

[Lady S.]

I think book Rhaegar sounded much more emo than Jon ever was. I also think he's more pragmatic than either of his fathers.

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Rhaegar don't IMO deserve much of the blame that goes to Aerys and Jon Arryn. 

When Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's heads that was the point of no return. I think that if was saner than Robert's Rebellion would have never happened. But it happened which had no positive effects IMO. 

Robert, the Lannisters and Jon Arryn have all been much worse for Westeros than Aerys ever were. 

Rhaegar has his huge share of the blame but he's not the only one. 

I doubt very much that Aerys was worse than Robert, sorry to say. The guy wanted to burn everything down.

Aerys was a very, very sick man. Meaning that if it was modern days, he would have to locked up in a mental institution. He probably had every severe mental disorder that a person can have that needs to be treated with drugs.   Everyone knew this, especially his family. Rhaegar was more aware that anyone. Yet, he just takes Lyanna and disappears, while everyone was trying to locate her. 

[Tippi]

I am not as familiar with the books either, but a scene from the books that has stuck with me is Lyanna crying at the banquet while listening to Rhaegar sing.  GRRM really has a knack for creating vivid moments.  I am hoping that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and willingly went with him and that they were married.

And, congratulations to Christopher Catesby Harington for his nomination as Best Supporting Actor in a Drama.  I'd like to see him win!

[Jazzy24]

34 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I doubt very much that Aerys was worse than Robert, sorry to say. The guy wanted to burn everything down.

Aerys was a very, very sick man. Meaning that if it was modern days, he would have to locked up in a mental institution. He probably had every severe mental disorder that a person can have that needs to be treated with drugs.   Everyone knew this, especially his family. Rhaegar was more aware that anyone. Yet, he just takes Lyanna and disappears, while everyone was trying to locate her. 

As a King Aerys reign was better than Robert. Aerys got worse throughout the years but as far as I remember there doesn't seem to be any bad thing said about Aerys' reign. Robert's reign put the kingdom in debt, and caused the worst war(TWot5Ks)Westeros has ever seen. 

 

Aerys was sick but he was in KL when Brandon Stark stupidly road into KL with twenty highborn men at his back threatening Aerys' son and heir. Now what Brandon did was treason. He threatened the crown prince and Aerys had every right by law to kill him. Though killing Brandon Stark was stupid. Brandon should have known better than to go into Targaryen territory with just twenty men while the mad King had absolute power threatening a member of the royal family. If anybody should have approached the king it should have been Rickard Stark for he was head of house Stark.  

Like I said Rhaegar deserves blame but there were others who deserve blame too. 

[YaddaYadda]

Aerys was a pretty paranoid man and he had Varys whispering in his ear. If Varys hadn't whispered about the Tourney of Harrenhal, I think things would likely have gone very differently. As much as LF is the one who pulled the strings for the current story, Varys did as much back in the day.

This is why I'm hoping GRRM will finish the books. Because how will Varys react knowing there's another Targaryen out there (if he doesn't already know about it), and LF? These people have contributed so much to the upheaval in the kingdoms, and are as responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands as the rulers are. We can blame Robert and Aerys and Rhaegar, but we should also blame those who were pulling the strings. 

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

As a King Aerys reign was better than Robert. Aerys got worse throughout the years but as far as I remember there doesn't seem to be any bad thing said about Aerys' reign. Robert's reign put the kingdom in debt, and caused the worst war(TWot5Ks)Westeros has ever seen. 

 

Aerys was sick but he was in KL when Brandon Stark stupidly road into KL with twenty highborn men at his back threatening Aerys' son and heir. Now what Brandon did was treason. He threatened the crown prince and Aerys had every right by law to kill him. Though killing Brandon Stark was stupid. Brandon should have known better than to go into Targaryen territory with just twenty men while the mad King had absolute power threatening a member of the royal family. If anybody should have approached the king it should have been Rickard Stark for he was head of house Stark.  

Like I said Rhaegar deserves blame but there were others who deserve blame too. 

Yes, but out of all the people involved, who was the one that wasn't responding to external events? Who was the one that instigated the situation? Not Brandon, not Jon Arynn,not Robert, not Rickard, not even Aerys. Rhaegar.(I am not a 100% on Lyanna) Sure everyone acted stupidly and Robert wasn't a very good king, but in the end Rhaegar wasn't a good prince. He violated the social customs by not going directly to Lyanna's father, instead spirited her away because he knew the what the answer would be and didn't like. Aerys was crazy and Brandon was a hothead, but neither of them was acting terribly out of character and both of them were responding terrible crimes they perceived were happening to their family members: Brandon believed that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar (and at that point a large amount of people believed the same) and Aerys imprisoned him for threatening the Crown Prince. Rhaegar took Lyanna because he wanted her, not really caring how it would affect everyone else. 

[JenMcSnark]

Someone up thread mentioned that Rhaegar and Jon Snow seemed to have a lot in common.  But after reading this thread, I felt like Rob was quite a bit like Rhaegar.  Both threw caution to the wind and got a lot of people killed because they fell in love with the wrong woman.  Both were deemed good soldiers, good men, and natural leaders.  And both their names begin with R.  

[Boudicea]

On 7/11/2016 at 8:19 PM, bunnyblue said:

Watching those 2 awesome Jon videos reinforces my belief that no actor on GOT has a more physically demanding role than Kit Harington. He has been getting the crap kicked out of him since S1 and each subsequent season the battles and beatings and sword fighting have gradually gone up to insane levels. I can only imagine what awaits Kit/Jon in S8 (I think he might get a reprieve from fighting in S7 as he concerns himself with running a kingdom). I wonder if he had any idea how physically taxing the role would be when he got the part. 

Something I've been wondering about since the whole ToJ reveal is what would have happened to baby Jon if Arthur Dayne had defeated Ned? I doubt Arthur could have or would have served on Robert's Kingsguard since he was Rhaegar's bff. So, would Arthur have taken Jon to Starfall and left him to be raised by Ashara, while he lived the hermit life like Obi-Wan Kenobi? Watching over Jon from afar and telling him his true parentage when Jon reach adulthood? Would he have pressed Jon's claim to the Iron Throne? Or would Arthur have taken him to Essos and raised him himself like Connington did with fAegon? Would he have sought out Viserys and Dany and left Jon with them? Or protected all 3? Would he have taken Jon to Winterfell and entrusted Benjen to raise him and keep the secret? I'm fascinated thinking about how different Jon's life would have been if Dayne had been the victor at the ToJ instead of Ned. Would it have been better or worse?

Arthur Dayne would have done his Kingsguard duty,  that is why he fought Ned in the first place, and all of the Kingsguard members tells Ned before the fight that they are part of the Kingsguard, and they swore a vow. He would have tried to stick to his vows. 

He properly would have taken Jon across the narrow sea into exile and he would have made plans for him to take back the Iron throne. He might have arranged some alliance with Dorne. If some of the other houses had known that Rhaegar had a living son, that might have created more alliances within Westeros. Since Viserys and Dany were also taken across the narrow sea it would have made sense for them to try and keep the family together. 

On 7/11/2016 at 8:51 PM, doram said:

He would have been obligated to. Aerys actually declared Viserys his heir before Rhaegar's first born Aegon. Whichever way, the Kingsguard were sworn to protect the royal family - Rhaegar's son, his mother/aunt, his siblings. Willem Darry who protected Rhaella and her children was the brother of a member of the Kingsguard. 

No, this never happened. Aerys threatened it at one stage in the past, but it never actually happened in any official capacity. 

It would have been pretty dumb, even by Aerys's standards, to try and denounce Rhaegar as the crowned Prince. Then Rhaegar would never have fought for him, he would just have joined the rebels. And after Rhaegar's death Aegon was still alive, once again if Aerys denounced Rhaegar and by extension Aegon, there would have been no help and protection from Dorne. Instead we know that Aerys actually kept Elia and the children around so that Dorne could send out some help towards the Royal army. 

The succession is very rarely changed or tampered with, even if Aerys actually did denounce Rhaegar it would not held up after Aerys's death. All of those Blackfyre rebellions was the result of tampering with the order of succession. It is something that would not have been repeated. 

 

On 7/13/2016 at 5:40 AM, Ambrosefolly said:

Here is my thing, whether he was raised as Ned Stark's bastard or by Rhaegar, along side his brother and sister (who knows if Lyanna would have survived, even if there was a Maester on hand) at the Red Keep as a true born, one way or another, I believe that he would have joined the Night's Watch. Maybe Elia wouldn't be as much of a bitch to Jon as Cat was, but House Martell wouldn't tolerate the possibility of Jon usurping either of Elia's children, considering one of them was a girl, and I think Rhaegar had an idea about the big bad in the north and would have strongly suggested that Jon join the Night's Watch to fulfill Rhaegar's Big Destiny. 

On 7/13/2016 at 6:58 AM, doram said:

If Rhaegar lived is basically a completely different story.  Too many things changed and it's hard to know just how much of Jon's personality is due to nature or nurture. Being brought up as a Prince, third in line to the throne would make Jon a completely different character. And even if Rhaegar won't have sent any of his children to the Wall (big if), there's no guarantee that Jon would have agreed to go... It's too speculative to tell or know.

Jon never really wanted to go to the Wall. That statement seems very wrong but if you really read the first few chapters of AGOT closely, you would realize that Jon does not really want to go to the Wall. Jon obviously feels a bit bad for himself because he is the bastard, but he also feels some resentment, as bastards are often seen as a creation of lust, and therefore some people see them as being untrustworthy and not good enough. Jon is a permanent reminder that the very honourable Ned Stark broke his vows. Even Jaime reminded Catelyn of this fact in one of their discussions.  Jon is always a stain on Ned's name. 

That is why he wants to joins the Nights Watch, he wants to prove to everyone that he is different, that he is willing to serve a higher purpose and that he will walk away from his home to make the situation better or easier for everyone. He also has the ambition and idea of rising high within the Nights Watch and becoming a more important person.  He wants to prove himself to his family through a noble act and he also want to show his competence through rising in the Nights Watch. But in truth he does not really want to go, we see this through Bran's eyes. Before Bran's fall he thinks to himself that Jon has finally gotten what he has always wanted, he is finally allowed to leave Winterfell and join the Nights Watch. Since Jon has now gotten what he has always wanted, Bran does not understand why Jon actually now seems even more unhappy and moody than before. Jon also removes himself further from everyone after hearing the news that he is allowed to join the Night Watch.

The point of all that information is that it shows,  a lot of actions and events had to take place in order for Jon to get into the Nights Watch. Jon talked about joining the Nights Watch and offered to join the Nights Watch, because he thought Ned would stop him from joining, in truth he secretly hoped that Ned would stop him from joining the Nights Watch and give him some position within the household. That is why Jon is so mopey and moody after receiving the news, he always hoped that he wouldn't just be pushed aside or out of the way by Ned. He tells the others within his his small Nights Watch circle that they should accept Sam, because he is just another outcast, a member of society that no one else wanted. In truth Ned was really not actually very keen on Jon joining the Nights Watch, it took a lot of events to bring that about. Jon Arryn had to die, Ned and Catelyn had to receive the letter from Lysa, Maester Lywin and Catelyn had to convince Ned because of the dangerous situation and Ned had to become the hand of the King. Ned had to leave Winterfell quickly. All of these events conspired together so that Jon could get into the Nights Watch at this stage. If the story was written just one fraction differently then Jon would not have ended up in the Nights Watch. 

There is actually some very, very excellent fanfiction about what Jon's life might have been if Rhaegar had survived the battle at the Trident.  Here is an example: http://archiveofourown.org/works/2854958/chapters/6399425

In this story Jon's character actually remains very similar, because he is still treated like a second class citizen or the outcast by some of the Royal Family and prominent people within Kings Landing. He thinks that people always blame him for the rebellion. 

[Boudicea]

16 hours ago, JenMcSnark said:

Someone up thread mentioned that Rhaegar and Jon Snow seemed to have a lot in common.  But after reading this thread, I felt like Rob was quite a bit like Rhaegar.  Both threw caution to the wind and got a lot of people killed because they fell in love with the wrong woman.  Both were deemed good soldiers, good men, and natural leaders.  And both their names begin with R.  

There is some similarities. The example of Robb also always makes me think that Rhaegar left a will behind. Robb knew that he was about to engage himself into more battles, and he made certain to leave a will. I think Rhaegar would have done the same thing before leaving to fight at the Trident. 

[Ambrosefolly]

9 minutes ago, Boudicea said:

Arthur Dayne would have done his Kingsguard duty,  that is why he fought Ned in the first place, and all of the Kingsguard members tells Ned before the fight that they are part of the Kingsguard, and they swore a vow. He would have tried to stick to his vows. 

He properly would have taken Jon across the narrow sea into exile and he would have made plans for him to take back the Iron throne. He might have arranged some alliance with Dorne. If some of the other houses had known that Rhaegar had a living son, that might have created more alliances within Westeros. Since Viserys and Dany were also taken across the narrow sea it would have made sense for them to try and keep the family together. 

No, this never happened. Aerys threatened it at one stage in the past, but it never actually happened in any official capacity. 

I guess if Doran still had Viserys marry his own daughter and for him to be her consort in Dorne instead of the other way around at the Red Keep he might keep the alliance, because I have a feeling Doran wouldn't have been too fond of the kid that  represented the deaths of his sister, nephew and niece, making himself the heir to the throne that should have gone to his nephew. I wonder if House Stark would go on his hit list. I guess forcing a few more kids into dynastic marriages just because someone couldn't respect social customs (heck, that even modern American society loosely follows) will make things alright.

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I guess if Doran still had Viserys marry his own daughter and for him to be her consort in Dorne instead of the other way around at the Red Keep he might keep the alliance, because I have a feeling Doran wouldn't have been too fond of the kid that  represented the deaths of his sister, nephew and niece, making himself the heir to the throne that should have gone to his nephew. I wonder if House Stark would go on his hit list. I guess forcing a few more kids into dynastic marriages just because someone couldn't respect social customs (heck, that even modern American society loosely follows) will make things alright.

Doran doesn't seem the type to blame innocent children for the mistakes of others. So no the Starks would not go on his hit list. 

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Boudicea said:

Arthur Dayne would have done his Kingsguard duty,  that is why he fought Ned in the first place, and all of the Kingsguard members tells Ned before the fight that they are part of the Kingsguard, and they swore a vow. He would have tried to stick to his vows. 

He properly would have taken Jon across the narrow sea into exile and he would have made plans for him to take back the Iron throne. He might have arranged some alliance with Dorne. If some of the other houses had known that Rhaegar had a living son, that might have created more alliances within Westeros. Since Viserys and Dany were also taken across the narrow sea it would have made sense for them to try and keep the family together. 

No, this never happened. Aerys threatened it at one stage in the past, but it never actually happened in any official capacity. 

It would have been pretty dumb, even by Aerys's standards, to try and denounce Rhaegar as the crowned Prince. Then Rhaegar would never have fought for him, he would just have joined the rebels. And after Rhaegar's death Aegon was still alive, once again if Aerys denounced Rhaegar and by extension Aegon, there would have been no help and protection from Dorne. Instead we know that Aerys actually kept Elia and the children around so that Dorne could send out some help towards the Royal army. 

The succession is very rarely changed or tampered with, even if Aerys actually did denounce Rhaegar it would not held up after Aerys's death. All of those Blackfyre rebellions was the result of tampering with the order of succession. It is something that would not have been repeated. 

 

Jon never really wanted to go to the Wall. That statement seems very wrong but if you really read the first few chapters of AGOT closely, you would realize that Jon does not really want to go to the Wall. Jon obviously feels a bit bad for himself because he is the bastard, but he also feels some resentment, as bastards are often seen as a creation of lust, and therefore some people see them as being untrustworthy and not good enough. Jon is a permanent reminder that the very honourable Ned Stark broke his vows. Even Jaime reminded Catelyn of this fact in one of their discussions.  Jon is always a stain on Ned's name. 

That is why he wants to joins the Nights Watch, he wants to prove to everyone that he is different, that he is willing to serve a higher purpose and that he will walk away from his home to make the situation better or easier for everyone. He also has the ambition and idea of rising high within the Nights Watch and becoming a more important person.  He wants to prove himself to his family through a noble act and he also want to show his competence through rising in the Nights Watch. But in truth he does not really want to go, we see this through Bran's eyes. Before Bran's fall he thinks to himself that Jon has finally gotten what he has always wanted, he is finally allowed to leave Winterfell and join the Nights Watch. Since Jon has now gotten what he has always wanted, Bran does not understand why Jon actually now seems even more unhappy and moody than before. Jon also removes himself further from everyone after hearing the news that he is allowed to join the Night Watch.

The point of all that information is that it shows,  a lot of actions and events had to take place in order for Jon to get into the Nights Watch. Jon talked about joining the Nights Watch and offered to join the Nights Watch, because he thought Ned would stop him from joining, in truth he secretly hoped that Ned would stop him from joining the Nights Watch and give him some position within the household. That is why Jon is so mopey and moody after receiving the news, he always hoped that he wouldn't just be pushed aside or out of the way by Ned. He tells the others within his his small Nights Watch circle that they should accept Sam, because he is just another outcast, a member of society that no one else wanted. In truth Ned was really not actually very keen on Jon joining the Nights Watch, it took a lot of events to bring that about. Jon Arryn had to die, Ned and Catelyn had to receive the letter from Lysa, Maester Lywin and Catelyn had to convince Ned because of the dangerous situation and Ned had to become the hand of the King. Ned had to leave Winterfell quickly. All of these events conspired together so that Jon could get into the Nights Watch at this stage. If the story was written just one fraction differently then Jon would not have ended up in the Nights Watch. 

There is actually some very, very excellent fanfiction about what Jon's life might have been if Rhaegar had survived the battle at the Trident.  Here is an example: http://archiveofourown.org/works/2854958/chapters/6399425

In this story Jon's character actually remains very similar, because he is still treated like a second class citizen or the outcast by some of the Royal Family and prominent people within Kings Landing. He thinks that people always blame him for the rebellion. 

You've got me hooked on the fan fiction. It's great!

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Doran doesn't seem the type to blame innocent children for the mistakes of others. So no the Starks would not go on his hit list. 

Maybe, but how willing would he be to help out the reason his sister, niece and nephew died.

[Ambrosefolly]

Arthur Dayne died for nothing. All those men died for nothing. With Rhaegar and Aerys dead,  Viserys and Dany living in exile and Lyanna on the verge of death , at that point Jon had a few options and they would dwindle if Ned Stark died. Whether or not Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar, I bet near the end, she was begging to return to her family or see them on last time. Say what you will about Jon being denied his birthright, but Ned saw him as his own person and the child of his beloved sister. As someone mentioned in another thread, despite Cat, Jon loved his family and was well loved in return. Day to day, he was happier than he would be as a fugitive and heir to the Iron Throne.

Despite as terrible as things ended at Castle Black, I do think he got a lot of fulfillment there as well. Once he got over his own ego a decided to help his fellow trainees, he ended up finding a lot of friendship with people that outside of the Night's Watch, wouldn't be at his level socially. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Hecate7]

On 7/13/2016 at 0:39 AM, evilmindatwork said:

I think Jon was definitely better off being raised by Ned than with Viserys and Dany. BUT, even if Rhaegar had lived I am not sure he would've been better off with the man who raped his mother. I say this, not because it's the Stark story about Lyanna, but because Ned had to fight his way into see Lyanna when she clearly wanted to see him. If Lyanna had run away with Rhaegar, wouldn't she have just told his men, "hey, I want to see my brother before I die. Please let him come in?"

Considering that in this culture honor killings are still ok and sort of expected sometimes, the guards might have been absolutely against any male relatives coming in to see Lyanna or the baby, until everything could be sorted out and Lyanna's honor restored some way other than by someone having to die over it.

[scrb]

So Jon is noble and humane, choosing now to punish the heirs of the two houses which had sided with Ramsay Bolton.

Sansa said it's a mistake not to punish those houses but Jon doesn't think the sins of the fathers should fall on the heirs.  Nor does he want to deprive them of their ancestral homes.

Maybe the kids won't betray Jon but some other house will, since Jon hasn't penalized houses for betrayal.

Of course, one of Robb's downfalls was that he penalized one of the houses, which made them enemies.

So the Stark men are damned if they do and damned if they don't, in the way they demand loyalty from their banner men.

[Lady S.]

Jon grew up being blamed for his father's sins. This is a personal issue for him, not just a Ned idolisation thing. And he also knows that taking people's homes away doesn't mean they can no longer be your enemies, because he and Sansa have just taken their home back, Again, personal experience. But his personal experience has also taught him that sometimes you can stop people from being your enemies by giving them a reason to be grateful to you, because that's what he did with the wildlings. Tormund killed countless northerners and NW brothers and was Jon's prisoner prior to Hardhome. Now he's one of Jon's closest allies. Speaking of which, I'm guessing Sansa had no one in particular in mind to give those castles to since she didn't offer any names (and the last time she offered "advice" it was "Idk! Just don't let Ramsay win!") but what she said was the castles should be given to the families of the men who died for Jon. Who was it who bled and died for Jon more than anyone else? Oh yeah, the fucking wildlings. But you know every northman and Valeman would have thrown a fucking fit if their loyalty had been mentioned. Either Jon could make those castles a prize to be squabbled over for the non-wildlings in that battle, people who already have lands of their own anyway, knowing that li'l Ned and Alys could still come back years later to fight for their homes, with dispossession giving them a much better reason for vengeance than their fathers' deaths in battle, or he could give the kids the same chance to prove loyalty before a greater enemy, just like the crazy, murdering wildling with the magnificent ginger beard.

Robert Baratheon pardoned all of his non-Targ enemies after they bent the knee and the only time that backfired was with Balon Greyjoy. But Balon was an insane idiot to his dying day. Point being this is not just a noble Ned way of doing things. (And no, he didn't need Ned to advise to do that either. One of the things book!Stannis enviously complains about is Robert's ability to befriend anyone, including those whose kin he'd killed.) Robb lost the Karstarks for beheading Rickard Karstark, but holding a grudge for kin killed in battle is much less common, else everyone would be in perpetual bloodfeud. The exceptions including the aforementioned idiot Balon Greyjoy. (And Rickard Karstark himself, but that's not as relevant to the show where one of his sons actually was murdered.)

No, Jon's never punished any northern lords for treason yet, because the treasonous lords are both already dead and he's hasn't been king long enough for any new treason. But he did execute 5 people in the NW, which he referenced during the scene. One of those executed happened to be a child. There's no reason Olly's fate needs to be a secret. If anyone doubts that one of those Jon hanged was only a kid, then that's their own fault, not his. (Dany's never penalized anyone inside Westoros for treason yet either, but I've never seen her ruthlessness treated as an unknown quantity.)

Sure, we could say he should at least surround Ned and Alys with loyal advisors and/or keep them as hostages for a while, but 1) the show never goes into details like that the way the books do, which should be especially true with shortened seasons & 2) that wasn't what Sansa was suggesting either.

Lastly, I doubt it was coincidence that the new Karstark and Umber heirs are a redhaired girl like Sansa (a show invention wrt haircolor) and a young boy named Ned (a show invented name). Maybe the point is just for it to hurt more when l'il Ned takes after his traitor father more than his loyal grandpa, but I'd guess it was meant to code them as sympathetic. (And if either is a future traitor, seems to me the Sansa-looking Alys has more motive with both a dad and a grandpa who were traitors killed for their treason.)

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Robert Baratheon pardoned all of his non-Targ enemies after they bent the knee

So many people, and so many powerful people, were against Robert -- including the Martels and the Tyrells -- that he had to pardon them.  There were too many to execute or otherwise punish.  Similarly, Stannis "forgave" if he did not forget the Baratheon bannerman who flocked to Renly's side.

As for the Karstarks and the Umbers, I'm still on the fence about Jon vs. Sansa.  I think both had valid points.

But I still say if Jon wants to hold discussions with his bannermen in which they're allowed to disagree with him publicly, but Sansa isn't, then he needs to discuss those matters with her beforehand rather than just take her for granted.  I would have thought being stabbed to death by his own men would have taught Jon the virtue of not taking people for granted, but I guess not.  And it's not as if Jon was the only Lord Commander of the Night's Watch in recent memory who was killed by his own men, see Jeor Mormont, RIP.