S05.E10: Safe

[Baltimore Betty]

4 hours ago, circumvent said:

The writing was ridiculous, even for this show's standards. All that happened in the episode on the Canada side was because June saw a suspicious car as she walked in the middle of the street, a street that does have a sidewalk. Then the car starts coming at her and she goes: there is a sidewalk there, I should walk over there, maybe get on that  house's porch until the car goes by. 

Instead, she keeps walking, then running, in the middle of the street. Why couldn't the writers just have her be hit by the car that comes out of nowhere? It would be the same story without this ridiculous initial scene.

I agree with the person here who said that the train reminds of the train taking people to death camps during the nazi rule in Europe. Also, doesn't Canada have fast trains? That one didn't look really modern

Next season, June and Serena are living together somewhere, the kids are best friends...

I swear it looked like a subway train inside, I saw seats facing the center of the train.

Next season June and Serena will be doing a Kate and Ally sort of thing. 

[burghgal]

I agree - the writing for this show has been awful and nonsensical.  Too much of the bizzarro world is not addressed like many of you have pointed out:

1) Why is Canada who 3 years ago hated Gilead, all of a sudden pro-Gilead/no refugee in a low birthrate/labor force world?  Is it because of jobs? Payroll Taxes? 

2) We still don't see the impact of the low birthrate, other than casual mentions.  To me, its like Covid or our current US political environment.  Something we may not all agree on/or what to do about, but something that has been in all our lives at this point -- so we discuss its impact to each other.

3) Why would they take a train to get out?  They could've used disguises taken Rita's car and driven to Alaska.  Tuella could've given them the fake IDs to use.  It's not winter so the Yukon roads would be open.

4) Nick = stupid.  At least Janine's meltdown I could understand -- if your angry enough and you figure you have nothing left to lose in a situation like hers.  Nick knows better.  Also, how is he getting across this magical border so quickly - its like Once Upon a Time/Storybrook that border.

Ok - thanks for letting me read your comments.  I like the show for the world building I guess and have been disappointed in that.  Liz Moss's smirks have been less the last few weeks which is good, but I still don't want to watch just for her.

[dmc]

Can I just ask who takes a train to Hawaii? At some point does it turn into a submarine? 

[circumvent]

33 minutes ago, burghgal said:

1) Why is Canada who 3 years ago hated Gilead, all of a sudden pro-Gilead/no refugee in a low birthrate/labor force world?  Is it because of jobs? Payroll Taxes?

Just to mention again, as far as I know, Canada has never stopped their immigration program (except for Quebec) because they always need people to work and pay taxes to fund programs, as it should be. And even if one considers racism and bigotry, lots of white Americans would be applying.

40 minutes ago, burghgal said:

2) We still don't see the impact of the low birthrate, other than casual mentions.  To me, its like Covid or our current US political environment.  Something we may not all agree on/or what to do about, but something that has been in all our lives at this point -- so we discuss its impact to each other.

Not only that, but by reducing the whole story of Gilead to just less than a decade, they made the whole low birthrate problem much ado about nothing. If Gilead has solved the problem and babies are being born, it wasn't an issue to begin with, jut a glitch (for context, birthrate in the real US has declined) And if it was a problem, it wouldn't be resolve din such a short time. The births they are promoting would be considered still an anomaly, not a tendency

40 minutes ago, burghgal said:

3) Why would they take a train to get out?  They could've used disguises taken Rita's car and driven to Alaska.  Tuella could've given them the fake IDs to use.  It's not winter so the Yukon roads would be open.

You are just being picky with all your sensical and sensible suggestions. 

[PurpleTentacle]

I don't think the writers have really earned the negative sentiment in Canada towards the refugees. They never showed us how that would come to be. "But just look at the US today!" doesn't work here. Let's face it, nobody in the US cares about illegal immigrants from Canada. They only care about immigrants from Mexico, because this isn't about immigration at all, it's about racism. So why would Canadians be so gung-ho about predominantly white refugees from Gilead? You can't just say they are, you actually have to explain it.

Also Tuello couldn't scrounge up some fake papers for Luke, or just put them in a car and find a safe border crossing to Alaska? Weak. It's not like you usually get your papers checked when leaving a country, only when entering and I doubt border procedure would be changed for Luke, half a country away. He isn't that high profile.

[Redrum]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Also Tuello couldn't scrounge up some fake papers for Luke, or just put them in a car and find a safe border crossing to Alaska? Weak. It's not like you usually get your papers checked when leaving a country, only when entering and I doubt border procedure would be changed for Luke, half a country away. He isn't that high profile.

Yeah I don't see why this was so hard. Luke hasn't had prior legal issues, and his wife was attacked. I mean realistically he should be able to join June in Hawaii or wherever after talking to the cops but really, why did everyone have to get on a train with no baggage and depart Canada?

[chaifan]

Well, that was interesting...  I knew they had a lot to wrap up in one episode, and I kept on wondering where Serena was...

One big glaring issue for me that no one else has mentioned...  why doesn't anyone have luggage?  Yeah, Luke and June were going on a moment's notice, they had to flee immediately because Luke was going to get arrested, so this was not planned for them.  But no one else in line or on the train had anything bigger than a back pack.  No one.  This couldn't have been an emergency evacuation for everyone.  That just makes no sense.  Also, no one offers to help a bruised woman with a broken arm carrying a kid on a train?  No one offers up their seat?  What world are they trying to make us believe this is?  (Not to mention that it would be impossible for June to carry Nicole with one broken arm - there's no way that would be happening with her injuries.)

Also, the truck waiting for June a block down the street could have been waiting there for days or weeks.  We've seen that they all tend to use the back door to go anywhere.  She was only out there because a) Tuello stopped by and b) she decided to walk Tuello back to his car.  A bit too convenient for me.

I get it - they had to separate June and Luke to set up the final season.  Forcing June to leave and giving a semi-legit reason for Luke not to be able to leave was the only practical way, short of killing off Luke. 

So now they're setting up June and Serena for season 6.  Personally, I would have rather had June establish being in charge from moment one - telling Serena that June could get her killed right then and there by simply saying "hey everyone, it's Serena Joy Waterford".  Take Noah from her arms, and let the crowd beat her to death or throw her off the train.  June doesn't need Serena.  Instead, we get half smiles and "do you have a diaper". 

I'd prefer Season 6 to go back to Gilead, and have Lydia turn traitor on Gilead, form a coup among the Aunts and lead the revolution with the Handmaids. 

[lavenderblue]

When they opened the episode talking about all the memorial services -- presumably, based on June's convo with Tuello, still for the Gilead mission, not for the shooting at the first memorial -- I, an American, really was empathizing with the disgruntled Canadians at that point because on what planet does a country hold multiple public memorials in a different country for a failed allegedly secret military mission against yet another country? 

Then June sees a truck clearly coming after her and decides "It's smart to just keep standing in front of it" because otherwise we'd have no plot developments I guess. The stupidity of characters in this episode truly was off the charts. The fear over Luke's consequences also seemed overblown -- he would be arrested, correctly, but there's probably a fair bit of evidence to demonstrate he was protecting June's life.

The Rose and Nick scene was genuinely written like something from a bad romantic drama, like dialogue from a show Rose watched as a teen pre-Gilead, because it sounded nothing like anything a wife in this universe would say. That would actually be sort of an interesting way to look at it -- the people who came of age just as Gilead started up who still draw on these things they learned from the media at a younger age, but were too young to have experienced yet -- but it was probably just bad writing.

I was spoiled by the Deadline leak, but the June/Serena reunion was the episode's highlight for me because it's the one thing that's genuinely up in the air to me (plus, like a few others here, it's the relationship dynamic that most interests me). The Gilead intrigues fluctuate based on whatever the showrunners need the world to look like from episode to episode, and characters tend to be pushed and pulled accordingly -- but I truly have no idea where they're taking this one thread, and that's kind of nice. 

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

Can I just ask who takes a train to Hawaii? At some point does it turn into a submarine? 

Tuello said "west" which I interpret as Alaska. That is also still US territory.

If he just meant western Canada, that doesn't make any sense. But that would be par for the course, for this show.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:43 PM, tpwilder said:

If we're talking simply running across the border, that could be happening but Canada would be taking steps to stop that. Its bad press and gives Gilead intel. Gilead would be crowing every time a Canadian crossed on their own.

You can't just stop your citizens from leaving the country, unless you want to be seen like the soviet union.

The question is if Gilead wants them, but Canada can't exactly stop them, as long as they still want to be a modern country with some modicum of freedom.

On 11/7/2022 at 9:58 PM, circumvent said:

That would make Canada go back to a time of the Iron Curtain.

Even the iron curtain was always permeable from the side of the democracy. West germans could travel to the DDR and visit their relatives. Of course they had to get visas, but that wasn't required by west germany, but by east germany.

It seems really far fetched, that Canada would build an iron curtain and not Gilead.

On 11/9/2022 at 9:29 AM, kitkat343 said:

- June for not realizing that Luke couldn't possibly get on a train right now while being tracked down by the canadian authorities

Well Tuello said he could and why would he lie? If he just didn't say anything Luke would have gotten arrested at the airport and June could have taken Nicole to Hawaii. So basically same outcome. The only reason was that the writers wanted June and Serena on the same train. There was no actual in-universe reason.

On 11/9/2022 at 9:29 AM, kitkat343 said:

-Janine for throwing away what was probably the safest posting for her, which would also have hopefully given her some access to Charlotte. (although in her defense she may not have realized how much safer she is in Commander Lawrence's home than any other commander, and Commander Lawrence may have had her arrested so he can force her to come back to his home where he will protect her)

Also access to the most powerfull commander in the land. If she really wants to change things, that is a great position to be in. Just being defiant isn't going to solve anything.

Of course Janine used to be full on crazy, so this would fit with that, but she hasn't acted like it the whole season, but was rather very calculated the whole time. So this is hard to swallow.

On 11/9/2022 at 5:23 PM, HMFan said:

I'm left wondering how they knew that Nick did anything wrong other than punch Lawrence. Lawrence is turning out to be quite the two faced bastardo. We were led to believe he wanted to change Gilead, but apparently he's full of his own collar fluff.

I'm pretty sure this is just a cheap cliffhanger and Nick will be back to his old post next season. At least that's how it should be. Even if Lawrence is high ranked again, most other commanders don't exactly love him and probably welcome that somebody punched him in the face. Although you never know with these writers. They aren't super big on logic.

16 hours ago, greekmom said:

Most Canadians are passively aggressive. We might be sick of the refugees but we wouldn't outright protest.  And I agree. How the heck did we go from hating the Waterfords when the first came to Canada to this? It doesn't make sense. Especially with all the crap that these women are telling everyone of what is happening in Gilead. 

There aren't any more passive agressive people on this planet than the germans (being agressive-agrissive is frowned upon because um reasons), but even we have some Nazi protestors against refugees. So I buy the protests. They didn't seem that big. But public sentiment having turned completely and the justice system wanting to railroad a refugee from the US? Yeah, the writers haven't earned that.

16 hours ago, SourK said:

Imagine that the last line wasn't "Do you have a diaper?"

It would have been so much better if they hadn't said anything. These are both amazing actresses. They could have communicated everything with their eyes.

But it seems the writers don't trust them and/or the audience.

16 hours ago, greekmom said:

Now that I think about it. Why muzzle and take Janine and the Martha to a dire fate? Lawrence should have just moved them to New Bethleham as well. 

That is actually the probable resolution of that cliffhanger. Janine isn't going to be harmed any further and they won't write her out of the show. So that is the only place that whole thing can go.

16 minutes ago, lavenderblue said:

When they opened the episode talking about all the memorial services -- presumably, based on June's convo with Tuello, still for the Gilead mission, not for the shooting at the first memorial -- I, an American, really was empathizing with the disgruntled Canadians at that point because on what planet does a country hold multiple public memorials in a different country for a failed allegedly secret military mission against yet another country? 

He said he was at 19 funerals, not memorial services. Of course the families are going to have funerals.

[greekmom]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

Can I just ask who takes a train to Hawaii? At some point does it turn into a submarine? 

They were going to take a flight but Tuello put them on a train which will take them to BC which then they will get on a plane to Hawaii as per Tuello.

Fun fact it will take them 4 days on train to get to BC going through Canada.   If they drove through Canada it would have took them 51 hours of continuous driving which they could have done by trading off.  As a poster said above, they could have gotten a car.

[crashdown]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Also Tuello couldn't scrounge up some fake papers for Luke, or just put them in a car and find a safe border crossing to Alaska? Weak

Well, of course he could have put them in a car, but that wouldn't be great television, would it?  The whole point of everything was for June to end up completely alone in a sea of people, and then to find Serena and not be alone anymore. I think that was a pretty powerful ending, and a lot more interesting than watching June and Luke drive a car, stop for gas, and hit up 7-11's for snacks on a road trip. Also, what's more romantic than a wrenching goodbye at a train station? Nothing at all! Cars and planes just can't compete.

Edited November 10, 2022 by crashdown

[circumvent]

24 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It seems really far fetched, that Canada would build an iron curtain and not Gilead.

The comment about the Iron Curtain was in response to someone who commented that maybe Canada was/would be preventing Canadian Gilead supporters from crossing the border. That would not be something that a country that calls itself democratic would do, limiting freedom of movement. That's something that we American's kind of do when we prevent people from traveling to Cuba (directly from the US)

[PurpleTentacle]

1 minute ago, circumvent said:

The comment about the Iron Curtain was in response to someone who commented that maybe Canada was/would be preventing Canadian Gilead supporters from crossing the border. That would not be something that a country that calls itself democratic would do, limiting freedom of movement. That's something that we American's kind of do when we prevent people from traveling to Cuba (directly from the US)

Yeah I was agreeing with you and adding to it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I just don't know how we got from a Toronto that told Serena to fuck herself during her visit and all cheered when Emily showed up at the hospital after escaping Gilead to refugees being so hated that the cops will try to convict a guy who accidently killed the man who tried to murder his wife and will try to shoot up a funeral, almost killing a little girl. 

Mark made it sound like refugees were just "pouring" across the borders into Canada. Which doesn't make any sense. Has Gilead security become that lax of late? The writing on this show is so contradictory so often. Sometimes it seems like it's next to impossible to get out of Gilead and sometimes you can just go back and forth like it's nothing. Also, sentiment against refugees has grown sour in Canada far too quickly. I could see this sort of thing happening over the course of years or decades but Nicole is still a baby. Their attitude turned on a dime for no apparent reason.

Another inconsistency is how famous June is. Nobody at the train station recognized her? I don't see how they would recognize Luke but not June - the latter has been much more in the public eye. 

And finally, the show is doggedly determined to throw June and Serena together over and over again. It's such a tedious cycle and stopped feeling organic or realistic around Season 3. 

[crashdown]

39 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Mark made it sound like refugees were just "pouring" across the borders into Canada. Which doesn't make any sense. Has Gilead security become that lax of late?

The refugees weren't coming from GIlead. They're already *in* Canada. Mark said that Canada doesn't want them ANYMORE. So they're coming to Toronto from other parts of Canada to be sent to other places.

[crashdown]

Here's an interesting quotation from Bruce Miller in a TV Line interview about his choice for that final June/Serena scene--long, but I think worth quoting in full. It tells me a lot about both his process and what we might expect in the final season:

The season was so much about June and Serena dancing around each other and finding out that, you know, even though they have a complicated relationship, they have a relationship. So, the season was always about that. So the capper on the end, this moment, it was spectacularly easy to figure out who was going to be in it. As I was starting to think about the end, to think about June and Luke having to flee again and what that was like… It came up because of Episode 7. When I when I read Episode 7, Rachel Shukert’s episode — that was her first script on the show, the episode where June and Serena are together and Serena is giving birth. So, God bless Rachel for being a fantastic writer and a quick study.

But after that episode, just seeing the dailies, actually, the connection between the two women, the positive emotional connection that could coexist with all the real venom and vengeance, surprised me… You don’t really realize how far Lizzie [Moss] and Yvonne [Strahovski]’s character have come since they’ve had a scene together, or a real scene together, an honest scene together. So, having all those things that seemed so delicious — the birth scene! I mean, after that was over, you’re like, “Well, it seems like this story cannot be overkill. Those two magnets click again.” I don’t know what’s going to happen, but it does feel like the end of that story is these two people finding each other again.

… I think both of them are relieved to see a familiar face, which is the point of the season is that they’re familiars. They are not friends, they are not colleagues. They’ve done all this stuff. They are none of those things, but they are in each other’s lives, and they know each other more than a stranger — and that has value. In this particular moment, seeing not a friendly face, but a familiar face, is what that moment is about. And they’re in the same boat. And it’s just I just love that they’re, you know, they’re both on the bottom. Usually, it’s the other way around for them.

[Redrum]

28 minutes ago, crashdown said:

The refugees weren't coming from GIlead. They're already *in* Canada. Mark said that Canada doesn't want them ANYMORE. So they're coming to Toronto from other parts of Canada to be sent to other places.

Except that isn't really doable. Canada can STOP accepting new American or Gilead refugees.... but they can't deport refugees they've accepted without due process. They can't pitch them out willy nilly without facing massive issues with other countries.

[dmc]

2 hours ago, Redrum said:

Also Tuello couldn't scrounge up some fake papers for Luke, or just put them in a car and find a safe border crossing to Alaska? Weak. It's not like you usually get your papers checked when leaving a country, only when entering and I doubt border procedure would be changed for Luke, half a country away. He isn't that high profile.

Tuello is the most ineffective person alive.  Not a single thing he has done or plan he has worked.  It’s probably why Serena didn’t call him and asked Blue Hair.

June must be coming around on him because this is the first time she offered him coffee in the 20 times he has come over her house.  As a southerner I definitely notice this. I was like if she ever going to offer this guy a glass of water.

I bet all my money and cake that they don’t make it to Hawaii.

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

He said he was at 19 funerals, not memorial services. Of course the families are going to have funerals.

I use these words interchangeably.  I think all memorial services can be funerals. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by dmc

[dmc]

21 hours ago, Bluesky said:

 Race is simply not an issue in Gilead.  You’re mixing up the real world with a fictional TV show.  

Well I was discussing Canada where I guess race is also not an issue.  But it would lent more credence to their batshit Luke plot to have racism exist and be a factor in this situation. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by dmc

[SourK]

6 hours ago, burghgal said:

3) Why would they take a train to get out?  They could've used disguises taken Rita's car and driven to Alaska.  Tuella could've given them the fake IDs to use.  It's not winter so the Yukon roads would be open.

"Why didn't they drive to Alaska?" is probably the best question anyone's asked. Why didn't they drive to Alaska? Like, I can't imagine that it's more dangerous than Hawaii. It has a country between it and Gilead. WTF.

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

I get it - they had to separate June and Luke to set up the final season.  Forcing June to leave and giving a semi-legit reason for Luke not to be able to leave was the only practical way, short of killing off Luke. 

It felt to me like they introduced a clumsy plot development to split June off from Luke, and then an even clumsier one to split Nick off from the wife he loves so much so that June and Nick can reunite and the love triangle I hate can just keep spinning. 9/10 they get back together but Nick sacrifices himself to atone for his sins and save June.

Then Luke shows up and he's like, "What did I miss?" And June's like, "OMG we found each other again."

19 hours ago, greekmom said:

Most Canadians are passively aggressive.

Can confirm.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

It’s probably why Serena didn’t call him and asked Blue Hair.

I don't remember well but didn't he say that he and his office (?) arranged for the refugees to come to Toronto and get in the train, that he also arranged? 

If Serena was there, she had to had contacted someone who is professional related to Tuello, which would make him aware that Serena is there. Otherwise, how did Serena get there and got the necessary papers? 

Of course, too many people, he can't possibly know all of them but in this show impossible situations like this happen when convenient for the plot they want to spin

[dmc]

13 minutes ago, circumvent said:

I don't remember well but didn't he say that he and his office (?) arranged for the refugees to come to Toronto and get in the train, that he also arranged? 

If Serena was there, she had to had contacted someone who is professional related to Tuello, which would make him aware that Serena is there. Otherwise, how did Serena get there and got the necessary papers? 

Of course, too many people, he can't possibly know all of them but in this show impossible situations like this happen when convenient for the plot they want to spin

I don’t think Serena contacted him or anyone he knows at all. I think it was just a coincidence.  But technically, I don’t know since they didn’t tell us.  Did they do an interview with the show runner usually he answers some questions? 

[HMFan]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:18 AM, greekmom said:

In the previews it seems that Janine is back as a Handmaid to Naomi and now Joseph. Which does not make sense since Esther is pregnant with Wheeler's baby and could have easily been placed there and not have to endure the monthly rapes. 

Esther is pregnant with Putnam's baby. But I don't see Lawrence raping Janine. He wouldn't have sex with any of his handmaids. It would have likely have been the best place for Janine because Lawerence's house was where all the plots to get kids out were formed and Lawrence is looking to reform Gilead to New Bethlehem standards.

13 minutes ago, dmc said:

I don’t think Serena contacted him or anyone he knows at all. I think it was just a coincidence.  But technically, I don’t know since they didn’t tell us.  Did they do an interview with the show runner usually he answers some questions? 

She had to have papers to get on the train and that had to come from somewhere. I'm still wondering why Nick is suddenly in Gilead jail from slugging a commander.

[HMFan]

On 11/9/2022 at 4:30 AM, chocolatine said:

Janine was put into the van with the Martha who had told her about the attack on June (talk about stupid; I thought them talking about it within earshot of other people was the stupidest move of all). If Lawrence wanted Janine back in his house, it wouldn't make sense for the Martha to also be in the van. If Janine and the Martha are lucky, Lawrence is going to get them out of Gilead. But, much more likely, I think Lawrence is going to crack down after Nick publicly undermined him, so I don't think this will end well for Janine and the Martha.

BTW, that scene in the van reminded me of the S1 episode when Emily had to watch the execution of the Martha with whom she'd had a relationship. Two muzzled women sitting in a van facing each other, one crying and the other trying to comfort her.

(I obviously care a lot more about Janine than I do about June, Luke, or Serena at this point.)

He may bring them back to the house and ship them off to New Bethlehem.

[Anela]

12 hours ago, circumvent said:

The writing was ridiculous, even for this show's standards. All that happened in the episode on the Canada side was because June saw a suspicious car as she walked in the middle of the street, a street that does have a sidewalk. Then the car starts coming at her and she goes: there is a sidewalk there, I should walk over there, maybe get on that  house's porch until the car goes by. 

Instead, she keeps walking, then running, in the middle of the street. Why couldn't the writers just have her be hit by the car that comes out of nowhere? It would be the same story without this ridiculous initial scene.

I agree that you see a car coming, you move. I think she had that deer-in-headlights reaction. I've had trouble moving my feet when I was in a really stressful situation. The driver was lurking back there, sees her walking, drives slowly, and then speeds up to deliberately hit her. There was no beeping of a horn, no yelling, "Get out of the road, you idiot!" They hit her, and then reversed to do it again.

Serena stood in front of a moving car, with her baby, in the previous episode, and the driver was sane and not trying to kill her, so she slammed on the brakes, and managed to stop before hitting her. 

[circumvent]

6 minutes ago, Anela said:

agree that you see a car coming, you move. I think she had that deer-in-headlights reaction.

Maybe, it is possible if you want to be kind to the writers and give them a reason to write shitty scenes, and the reason why it is shitty is because June has ran a lot in this show. Her reflex is always to escape. It is out of character for her to not really flee. Besides, the story didn't have to change. The truck could have hit her on the sidewalk, it would easily drive up the curb. I am picking only on the fact that she didn't even try to get to the curb. Having her running on the street didn't make it more dramatic, just pathetic, imo

[dmc]

35 minutes ago, HMFan said:

Esther is pregnant with Putnam's baby. But I don't see Lawrence raping Janine. He wouldn't have sex with any of his handmaids. It would have likely have been the best place for Janine because Lawerence's house was where all the plots to get kids out were formed and Lawrence is looking to reform Gilead to New Bethlehem standards.

She had to have papers to get on the train and that had to come from somewhere. I'm still wondering why Nick is suddenly in Gilead jail from slugging a commander.

If Serena had contacted to Tuello, I don’t think he would’ve given her papers for the train. He could’ve just helped her become a citizen like he offered before.  Why exactly what she need to escape all she really needs Canadian citizenship or a route towards Canadian citizenship? The Wheelers can only touch Serena since she has a Gilead citizenship.   In fact, it’s counterproductive for Serena to actually be escaping. She’s basically putting any hopes of Canadian citizenship in jeopardy.  

June on the other hand actually has a hit out on her and does need to leave. 

To your point I don’t know how she got on the train, but I don’t think she went to anybody in the government. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by dmc

[lavenderblue]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

He said he was at 19 funerals, not memorial services. Of course the families are going to have funerals.

I went back to rewatch the opening, which is what had prompted my thought -- my reference to Tuello confused things, sorry. I just took that later scene between he and June to indicate that the memorials discussed below were still for the mission, not in commemoration of any potential fatalities in the shooting:
 

Quote

June tries on a bulletproof vest.

JUNE: There's another memorial service this weekend.
LUKE: High Park?
JUNE: I'm supposed to do a prayer.
LUKE: I get it. You got to be safe.

So from that I assumed they're still doing public services in addition to the private funerals Tuello is attending.

Edited November 10, 2022 by lavenderblue

[crashdown]

3 hours ago, Redrum said:

Except that isn't really doable. Canada can STOP accepting new American or Gilead refugees.... but they can't deport refugees they've accepted without due process. They can't pitch them out willy nilly without facing massive issues with other countries.

You're right, it doesn't make sense. What can I say? There's only so far I can go to defend the show's building of a fictional political world (spoiler--not very far!).

[burghgal]

8 hours ago, circumvent said:

You are just being picky with all your sensical and sensible suggestions. 

Thanks for your replies -- lol you made me seem less crazy as I am recovering from Covid so not sure why I thought watching this show would help me out. 

I looked at the map and it would take about 60 hours to get to Alaska from Toronto-- that could be done in ~4 days of driving straight through with stops at Tim Hortons.  Granted we still have this magical floating border world to contend with; but amazing June could figure that out.

[Andyourlittledog2]

This show has completely exhausted what little interest Canada held for viewers.  The real energy comes from happens in Gilead and with the Gilead characters. June can grimace and scowl and plot and plan and glare into the camera all she wants but nothing really grabs you from the Canadian scenes. Not really. So they switch to Gilead, make trips into no man's land several times, etc. And things pick up. This show cannot just stay in Canada. And there is no interest in Alaska or Hawaii.

I think the train is like the Nazi trains in the 1930s: tell everybody (probably including Tuello) that they are on their way 'west' to safety and really be sending them, with Gilead's knowledge, to New Bethlehem. The show needs more Gilead action and that would do it. It would also have the potential of resolving the whole 'find Hannah' problem we've lived with for years now. I think they are the guinea pigs Lawrence is grasping for and that they are also going to be living very precariously because of Mackenzie. But mostly it gets the show back to Gilead, where the interest and action is. They haven't followed the book much for seasons now so why not?

Below spoiler is for The Testaments only, no special knowledge of upcoming events or anything:

Spoiler

Although Aunt Lydia slowly thawing out and seeing how cruel Gilead is and wanting to make it better is definitely in Testimonies territory. She is getting more radicalized and more subversive all the time. This last episode may be her turning point entirely. I would like to see that. Lawrence too. I don't think his hardness in public is his real face. I think his real face is the one he showed Nick at NB.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Andyourlittledog2
spolier explanation

[Quickbeam]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:19 AM, greekmom said:

They are on the train to Vancouver BC to catch a plane or a boat ride to Hawaii.  Personally the whole thing reminded me of the Jewish people boarding a train thinking they are going to some remote place and then shipped off to the camps. I wouldn't be surprised if they (show) pull a fast one on us and those people on the train are actually headed to New Bethlehem.  

That’s exactly where my mind went.

[MichaelaRae]

Dear Handmaid’s Tale: you can keep trying to make Nick&June a thing but I’ll never really buy it. A) the actor is a nice guy but he’s not that good an actor - I’ve never bought it but b) more importantly, I’ll never forget that they were forced together by a patriarchal rape system that, despite some physical attraction, required them to have sex to keep them from being murdered and shared traumatic experience ISN’T love. Stop trying to make me think it is.

[aghst]

On 11/9/2022 at 12:25 AM, Armchair Critic said:

June has these men risking their lives for her. Now Nick is screwed too. Aunt Lydia believed in the cause but it will be interesting what she does now that Janine is taken away. June and Serena are now frenemies?

How many border crossings are so easy, just walk across a bridge and you're in another country.

You would think they'd at least have that place under video surveillance, so as soon as Nick walks across to talk to Tuello, his cover is gone.

At that point, he might as well have defected right then and there.  Because if he cared enough to risk being caught, having his pregnant wife taken away, it's clear he doesn't value his wife and unborn child as much as June.

Instead he goes and slugs Lawrence right in front of everyone?  But they won't kill him off, like Lawrence did worst to betray Gilead and now he runs the place.

As for Canadian zealots being soldiers for Gilead, they're making it up as they go along.  Probably didn't know if they'd have multiple seasons, let alone make it to season 5.  So they had to improvise.

Now they're probably going to wrap it up with redemption arcs for Serena and Lydia.  They learned the hard way how little Gilead cares for women, literally knocking them down.

So they along with June and Janine will take down Gilead.  The women will conquer that horrible place!

[circumvent]

6 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

Dear Handmaid’s Tale: you can keep trying to make Nick&June a thing but I’ll never really buy it. A) the actor is a nice guy but he’s not that good an actor - I’ve never bought it but b) more importantly, I’ll never forget that they were forced together by a patriarchal rape system that, despite some physical attraction, required them to have sex to keep them from being murdered and shared traumatic experience ISN’T love. Stop trying to make me think it is.

Thank you for this. It is unthinkable that someone would feel attracted to anyone who raped her, even if it was forced. Maybe conflicted feelings because he was forced but not a desire to see or be with. That would only make her relive the trauma over and over. It would also indicate a trauma so serious, it messed up her already messed up head. But I guess the writers did think it would be a good idea, and did write it as a love story. Twisted minds 

[crashdown]

4 hours ago, circumvent said:

Thank you for this. It is unthinkable that someone would feel attracted to anyone who raped her, even if it was forced. Maybe conflicted feelings because he was forced but not a desire to see or be with. That would only make her relive the trauma over and over. It would also indicate a trauma so serious, it messed up her already messed up head. But I guess the writers did think it would be a good idea, and did write it as a love story. Twisted minds 

June was attracted to Nick and fantasized about him before Serena arranged the "mating." June is not processing what happened with Nick as a trauma, and to insist that she should is really to assume that we know best how she ought to be reacting in all situations. There certainly are reasons why June shouldn't jettison her life to be with Nick, but I don't think "trauma" is one of them.

[circumvent]

35 minutes ago, crashdown said:

and to insist that she should is really to assume that we know best how she ought to be reacting in all situations.

June is a fictional character and the writers are the ones assuming how she should be feeling so I guess we all can assume whatever we want (many here would do a much better job writing this show, so there is that too)

this specific assumption is informed by experiences I had, and experiences people I know had. Even when you feel attraction to someone and that person hurts you in a way that is violent, even if "unintentional", the feelings that come after that are not clear and objective. Rape is a trauma, that's not up for debate. How she "ought" to feel is a matter of perception. I don't think the writers are consistent with June's feelings. We could say that Nick was a victim of a system, so she is able to redirect her feelings, but Serena could also be said to be a victim but June makes no attempt to redirect her feelings towards her - nor should she. I still think the way they write the June/Nick relationshop is inconsistent and a bit soap opera-ish. There is no nuance in how June feels about Nick and I can't see this as realistic. Then again, it is bad writing all around, based on a excellent book that didn't tell that particular story so...

[crashdown]

8 minutes ago, circumvent said:

There is no nuance in how June feels about Nick and I can't see this as realistic. Then again, it is bad writing all around, based on a excellent book that didn't tell that particular story so...

But the book DID tell the story of Nick and June, and she certainly was in love with him there. You're right that there isn't nuance in Nick/June--it's presented as pure romance and nothing else--but I think that's part of the point. Nick is fantasy; Luke is real life. I just don't see how anyone can argue that Nick's encounters with June were traumatic. She was attracted to him and fantasized about him, and then they had an affair that by all accounts was very satisfying to her. I don't see how it helps the character to take away her desires and her agency and force her to feel something that she does not feel. If June doesn't consider Nick to be a trauma, he isn't a trauma, regardless of whether or not we think he ought to be. Love is complicated, and so are human beings.

[dmc]

7 hours ago, circumvent said:

Dear Handmaid’s Tale: you can keep trying to make Nick&June a thing but I’ll never really buy it. A) the actor is a nice guy but he’s not that good an actor - I’ve never bought it but b) more importantly, I’ll never forget that they were forced together by a patriarchal rape system that, despite some physical attraction, required them to have sex to keep them from being murdered and shared traumatic experience ISN’T love. Stop trying to make me think it is.

I will never forget the patriarchal rape system name was Serena.

Part of the complexity of this show is them trying to sell us characters that have been horrific.  Nick only said yes to Serena's rape plan because he liked June.  He actually had to betray Fred his boss and put himself in danger to do it.  But he wanted to be with someone who didn't have any options.  Serena engineered something against the Gilead doctrine and common decency because she wanted a baby.

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, crashdown said:

I don't see how it helps the character to take away her desires and her agency and force her to feel something that she does not feel. If June doesn't consider Nick to be a trauma, he isn't a trauma, regardless of whether or not we think he ought to be. Love is complicated, and so are human beings.

My criticism is about how June is written, the lack of consistency in her actions and the lack of nuance in this particular relationships. I am not trying to force a character to feel anything, lol. It is a character, not a friend. If the writers don't want June to feel the trauma of an staged, planned, forced rape on her, they are getting what they want. I am utterly powerless to change anything. I can though, continue to roll my eyes and criticize the lack of understanding of the writers when they only show one feeling that June has towards Nick, not the complicated feelings that anyone in that situation would feel. I wonder if there is any woman in the writers' room, and if they raised that question, if not, why not. 

Clearly, They are not showing the plot as I thought it would be realistic and that's one more reason that goes on my list of why this show sucks

[aghst]

June getting separated from Luke is just convenient if the end game is June and Nick.

She also happens to have their baby.

If she does take down Gilead in the final season, maybe she gets to rescue Nick in the process.

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, crashdown said:

But the book DID tell the story of Nick and June, and she certainly was in love with him there.

It was more complex than that. Their first encounter, engineered by Serena, was certainly rape; the book does not attempt to turn it into anything else. But then June chose to keep sneaking out and have sex with him because she felt it was one thing in her life over which she had some autonomy (the book also went into some graphic detail about her insisting to be on top so that she can feel in control). But she also always had a bit of fear and distrust of Nick. At the end of the book, when Nick told her to climb into the van and trust him, she still wasn't sure if she could.

[AngelaHunter]

On 11/9/2022 at 1:20 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

Well, that was stupid. 

A whole season of S-T-U-P-I-D. 

I could write more, but I don't think this show is worth it anymore.  I'm taking my remaining brain cells over to Netflix to see if The Crown S5 has dropped yet. 

I've just been watching for the Serena and Gilead segments. I cannot stomach any more of Queen June, her million lingering closeups and her dopey consort, Luke. They wonder why people have turned against them? These so-called refugees squat in a 2 million dollar house instead of a utilitarian apartment, run around and cause trouble, bitch and whine and treat Tuello (who appears constantly like a cowed Littlest Hobo) like he's their indentured servant (I think he may be a masochist) and are not required to earn their keep. Then after June gets run over in slo-mo (I put down my word game as hope rose in me that she'd be killed) as melodramtic music blares so loud even I, partially deaf, had to lower the volume, she's all, "Let's get armed guards around the house", as though she's some kind of royalty. Of course, Queen June. We are here to serve. I don't really blame her since everyone treats her that way.

I enjoyed Rose dumping Nick, but she needs to understand that everyone is obsessed with June and just learn to live with it.

Please don't tell me we're going to see Janine be abused/tortured/brutalized yet AGAIN. One of these writers is one sick fuck.

Is everyone on the train going to stand for the 2700 miles from from Toronto to Vancouver? Oh, look! There's Serena! What a coincidence.🤔

[Haleth]

Dumb, dumb, dumb.  June running down the middle of the street instead of running through the yards?  Dumb.  June and Luke trying to get on the train instead of driving to Alaska?  Dumb.  Nick continuing to be madly in love with June to the point where he destroys his own life?  Dumb.  (Yeah, I get that this is all for the drama, but we were given no reasons why characters acted this way instead of how anyone would in real life.)

It seems like the Eyes hauling Janine away will be the thing that breaks Aunt Lydia.

If the train was really going to New Bethlehem wouldn't that reveal have been a better cliffhanger for viewers?  I don't think June and Serena are going to end up on the beach at Waikiki but I don't think they are currently headed toward Gilead either.

[Bluesky]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:32 PM, dmc said:

Well I was discussing Canada where I guess race is also not an issue.  But it would lent more credence to their batshit Luke plot to have racism exist and be a factor in this situation. 

Canadian people have issues with immigrants, just not as much as Americans.  But when it comes to trying to bring babies into the world in order to survive, race or color wouldn’t factor in so much.  

[Kel Varnsen]

Man taking that tiny crowded train from Toronto all the way to Vancouver seems like even more torture for June. Although I was impressed that she could navigate the train at all. Her arm was crushed by a truck, what a few days earlier. You would think she would be on so many pain killers she would hardly be able to talk, much less walk around carrying her kid. And yes Tuello does suck for not getting them on a private jet or a car or their own bus, or hiding them out at the US consulate or something. 

On 11/9/2022 at 10:12 AM, tpwilder said:

I mean, do people on the train understand that western Canada is still Canada? So moving American refugees from Toronto to British Columbia isn't getting rid of the problem?

I can kind of see that. I read something recently about how the vast majority of immigrants who come to Canada settle i Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal. If you can disperse them more across the country it might be easier than over burdening the services of one place.

On 11/9/2022 at 9:54 AM, Helena Dax said:

And how was she allowed in? They're checking their IDs. And as far as we know, she's still a Gilead citizen.

It looked to me like they were just spot checking people, so maybe she got lucky. I am just more surprised that June made it in. I mean isn't the person responsible for the angel flight pretty much a celebrity?

On 11/9/2022 at 5:00 PM, Trillian said:

We don’t really have an offence of involuntary manslaughter. Manslaughter itself encompasses the notion that one did not have the requisite intent to murder but did have the intent to cause harm.  However, Luke has a self-defence argument (which, in Canada, includes reasonable belief that another person - and not just the accused himself - would otherwise be harmed). 

If Luke ends up being prosecuted it will be especially weird since judges and prosecutors in Canada are appointed and generally not political. So it is not like the local crown prosecutor has to show that they are tough on crime because there is an election coming up. Luke killed a guy who attacked him with a gun after the guy tried to kill his wife. Not sure if there is a better scenario for the use of deadly force in self defense.

Lastly I am still amazed that after all these years of brutal treatment, Janine still has amazing hair.

[Anela]

Oh, never mind. I responded to the wrong thing.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Anela

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Lastly I am still amazed that after all these years of brutal treatment, Janine still has amazing hair.

The handmaids' hair has always been one of my nitpicks. Both June and Janine, who clearly have color-treated hair, were apparently allowed to keep coloring it despite Gilead eliminating most modern chemicals and the handmaids having to wear a head covering during their waking hours. Janine's auburn color could possibly be achieved with a plant-based dye, but to get a blond color like June's you need to use bleach.

[Kel Varnsen]

23 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The handmaids' hair has always been one of my nitpicks. Both June and Janine, who clearly have color-treated hair, were apparently allowed to keep coloring it despite Gilead eliminating most modern chemicals and the handmaids having to wear a head covering during their waking hours. Janine's auburn color could possibly be achieved with a plant-based dye, but to get a blond color like June's you need to use bleach.

To be honest I wasn't even thinking of the colour, I just noticed how long and perfectly curly her hair was. I mean I am a guy with pretty short hair (although I did have much longer hair in my youth (it was the 90's) and it was curly), but even to me that type of hair would require a lot of maintenance and care to look that good. And I am not sure how that works in a world where handmaids aren't supposed to draw attention to themselves and vanity would probably be considered sinful. Plus she is essentially enslaved so how does she have time for hair care.

[jenn31]

“I know what’s it’s like... to be responsible for people then lose them.” There’s the understatement of the the year. Hey, June, you forgot to mention just how many (many, many) times you lost them. 

Agree that it has all become stupid. Won’t mention it all again as others already have. It’s just a head shaker.