legaleagle53 February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 (edited) Exactly, Serena. In fact, what I love is that the script expressly says that Regina didn't want to kill him, but he left her with no other choice. Bullfeathers. Regina always had a choice. She could have chosen to let him go and move on with her life, but noooo. She had to be the vindictive bitch who couldn't let anyone else have him if she couldn't. So of course it's his fault that she murdered him -- "Look what you made me do, Graham!" It's the justification used by abusers everywhere. Edited February 14, 2015 by legaleagle53 6 Link to comment
Selina K February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 Maybe Adam can reread the scene where it says Regina crushes his heart and remind us about why we are supposed to be voting for her happy ending. 2 Link to comment
Souris February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 Good Lord, the script actually says that? It actually blames Graham for Regina killing him? That is ... really disgusting. And explains so very much about the show. That's some Grade A victim-blaming and abuse-justification right there. 4 Link to comment
SilverShadow February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 In context, I think the script was direction for Regina's emotional state, not justification. She rationalizes it that way. Even Adam and Eddy aren't quite that delusional. 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 Even Adam and Eddy aren't quite that delusional. One can never be too sure about that. 3 Link to comment
Souris February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 Yeah, I'd say that supposition is up for debate! 1 Link to comment
Serena February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 I agree that it was her emotional state. But in context, knowing what comes next, that line shows Regina as a text book abuser (that's the kind of justifications they make) and now the show is straight up glamorizing her and excusing her past actions by blaming the victims. Did it start off that way? Maybe not, but that's what makes it even creepier. There's nothing in 50 Shades that you can't find even worse in Once. 1 Link to comment
FormerMod-a1 February 14, 2015 Share February 14, 2015 This is the FANDOM thread. This is the 2nd reminder in just the past 2 pages. Next time, posts will disappear. Link to comment
Curio February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 So, this tweet by Scott Nimerfro was posted in the writers thread. I've never really taken the time to look through his timeline of tweets and responses before, but wow. It's really odd that he seems to only talk with Swan Queen fans and no other fandoms. It looks like he even retweets #SwanQueen posts at Jennifer and Lana. I'm not opposed to the writers interacting with fans on Twitter, but it seems really weird to me that he specifically only talks to one faction of the fandom and only promotes their stuff. If there were other tweets promoting Captain Swan or Rumbelle, then whatever. But as a writer of the show, shouldn't you try to be as neutral as possible? Or maybe he figures only the obsessive fans even know who he is so he doesn't give a fuck and lets his favoritism show? Is it just a case where the Swan Queen fans think he's their favorite and send him a bunch of tweets? Or do other fandoms attempt to ask him questions and he purposely doesn't respond to them? This is why I don't do Twitter. 1 Link to comment
Souris February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 I don't know if any other fandoms bother to tweet to him anymore, but he's pretty much always ignored anybody who wasn't SQ. He's retweeted and laughed at tweets making fun of Sean/Robin and Colin/Hook. Clearly he doesn't give a fuck about appearing neutral or respecting the other fandoms. It's SQ and SQ only. Link to comment
Serena February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry. This is extremely prejudiced of me. But the idea if that guy in the Twitter icon spending his days on Twitter talking about lesbians making out... *shudders* he just looks like the typical middle aged man who fetishizes lesbians. I hope Jen and Lana aren't aware, because it'd make me so unconfortable if it were me. Not to mention how rude it is to Colin and Sean to be interacting with these people who insult them all the time. Edited February 20, 2015 by Serena 5 Link to comment
Shanna Marie February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 I would think it might be a career-limiting move for a writer on a TV series to publicly mock or dismiss characters on the series and the actual canon relationships occurring on the screen in the series in favor of a non-canon crackship. He's basically insulting his bosses and co-workers -- the other writers and the actors. Link to comment
Souris February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 Yet he keeps doing it, and I know Adam has been made aware of some of his tweets -- so he must not be getting any blowback from it from on-high. It seems wildly unprofessional to me, but maybe the TV-writing biz is different. Link to comment
Amerilla February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 But as a writer of the show, shouldn't you try to be as neutral as possible? He has 1800 followers and he doesn't identify himself in his bio as being affiliated with the show, so it's mostly insider talk. If his contract doesn't prohibit it, I would think he's free to express his views without constraint. would think it might be a career-limiting move for a writer on a TV series to publicly mock or dismiss characters on the series and the actual canon relationships occurring on the screen in the series in favor of a non-canon crackship. Seems to be working the other way. I believe he's technically a co-producer, which (I think) means he mostly contributes to edits of finalized scripts. It's only this season that he's beginning to co-write scripts. Link to comment
RadioGirl27 February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 (edited) That guy is gross. I've been reading his twitter and now I need to bleach my eyes. I think he is using this to create himself a loyal fanbase that would follow him in his next projects. Not to mention how rude it is to Colin and Sean to be interacting with these people who insult them all the time. Yeah, poor boys. I feel so bad for Sean Nimerfro is the one who has written his flashback episode in 4B Edited February 20, 2015 by RadioGirl27 2 Link to comment
Curio February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 (edited) He has 1800 followers and he doesn't identify himself in his bio as being affiliated with the show, so it's mostly insider talk. If his contract doesn't prohibit it, I would think he's free to express his views without constraint. Oh, I'm sure there's nothing legal restricting him from saying whatever he wants on his personal Twitter. I was saying that it seems weird on a personal-Internet-judgement level that he's so blatantly in favor of one ship (or at least that's how he portrays his twitter account) when he knows that anything you say can and will be seen on the Internet. I believe he's technically a co-producer, which (I think) means he mostly contributes to edits of finalized scripts. It's only this season that he's beginning to co-write scripts. And if he's technically a co-producer and not just strictly a writer, you'd think that would be even more incentive to be a bit more neutral about your preferred characters. But I guess anything goes on Twitter these days. Edited February 20, 2015 by Curio Link to comment
Serena February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 Isn't this his first season on Once anyway? I think he worked on Hannibal before. Link to comment
Souris February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 I know if I tweeted some of the things he tweeted while presenting myself as a representative of my company, and my bosses found out, I would get at least a talking-to. And my company isn't particularly strict about that sort of thing. Link to comment
KAOS Agent February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 The one tweet of his that really blew up the fandom was when he said that only he and Jane Espenson "fight" for Swan Queen. There was a huge mess about that and it spilled over into a bunch of the other writers. When the boss has to step in and basically tell everyone that his writer is way off base, there is a problem. What I find ironic about this is that the Happy situation where the Swan Queeners were enraged by Michael Coleman's tweeting that SQ would never happen and the actors are annoyed by it has been written into the show where Emma now hates Happy for no reason. How is it the writers have applied a stupid comment on Twitter that enraged a fandom into the show and still don't grasp that hey, you too can be responsible for this? I don't do Twitter, but if a writer is endorsing making meanspirited fun of actors, that seems like a hugely bad move career-wise. Colin and Sean may not have a lot of clout, but I'd hesitate to add this guy to my writers group if I had to worry he might insult a temperamental actor who does have that clout. There's also the aspect that there are some real crazies in this fandom. Some of the hate and threats sent to these actors is truly scary. No one associated with the show should ever be seen even remotely endorsing this kind of behavior. 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 I think it sucks whether the actors have clout or not. Colin and Sean seem to be just really nice guys and you have Sean talking against bullying and this shit is coming right from inside where they work and is sort of encouraged (when you have a writer who seems to brain fart all over the place and have no judgement over the things he says) and I just hope the actors, including JMo who has taken so much abuse over this just block the crazies or pay no mind to them. Yeah he can say whatever he wants and I'm sure the actors have thick skin but this guy needs to stop. 4 Link to comment
maryle February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 I'm french so the subtlety of English can escape me, but it just seems so vulgar! Not wanting to know more than the first look! Not a good way to represent SQ at all. 3 Link to comment
sharky February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 Seems to be working the other way. I believe he's technically a co-producer, which (I think) means he mostly contributes to edits of finalized scripts. It's only this season that he's beginning to co-write scripts. Actually, all the staff writers are also co-producers. There's nothing too special about it, I think that's the way some writers rooms work -- you get credit for being the main writer and then co-producer for the other episodes for their work as a team in the room. And is it just me being a bit of a sensitive feminist or did anyone else find the word cliterference offensive? Seriously, I have to wonder if this guy is going to be on staff next season. He just seems a bit too unprofessional for someone you would want on a writing staff. 3 Link to comment
Faemonic February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 is it just me being a bit of a sensitive feminist or did anyone else find the word cliterference offensive? Seriously, I have to wonder if this guy is going to be on staff next season. He just seems a bit too unprofessional for someone you would want on a writing staff. That's not someone I want writing the English language. That was not even a clever pun. People (*cough* femmeslashers) jumped on Maguire for his hypocrisy with #NoH8 but they cannot see that Nimefro is fetishizing female homosexuality? #NotYourShield #NotYourShield #NotYourShield #SrslySQpplStahpBeingTheSheildForThisWanker 4 Link to comment
KAOS Agent February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 (edited) I'm curious to know what kind of training background people receive for dealing with the fandom. In the past, it's been the actors who were front and center and they knew that their comments would be picked up. Now many, many actors are stupid or just don't care about this, but there are often contractual stipulations about what they can share/say because these people represent the show. However, obsessive fans will seek out anything they can that's related to a show and not just the actors are the representatives anymore. Mr Nimerfro represents Once because he is engaging with fans in his capacity as a writer for the show. There is sort of a perfect storm here because I think this is a person who is used to being able to say whatever he wants with no repercussions, but is also in love with the massive ego boost of all the fan adulation when he claims to be on their side. Seriously, how can there not be corporate guidelines for anyone who represents a show to follow? You know what would happen if I had a Twitter account as KAOS Agent - Executive at KA Enterprises and I started saying negative things about the decisions my bosses/coworkers were making or commenting about how hot it would be to see two 13 year old girls making out/having sex or retweeting when customers were making horrible jokes about my coworkers? I would no longer be employed. End of story. Edited February 21, 2015 by KAOS Agent 7 Link to comment
Camera One February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 (edited) Or maybe this is a special strategy adapted from the Rumplestiltskin work-all-angles playbook. They've designated Nimerfro as "Team SQ", so those fans can feel that they have someone on the writing team "in their corner", keeping a vocal segment of the viewership engaged and appreciated, while continuing to write the same way but throwing a few pieces of "Breaking Glass" their way. Edited February 21, 2015 by Camera One Link to comment
myril February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 (edited) I'm curious to know what kind of training background people receive for dealing with the fandom. In the past, it's been the actors who were front and center and they knew that their comments would be picked up. Now many, many actors are stupid or just don't care about this, but there are often contractual stipulations about what they can share/say because these people represent the show. However, obsessive fans will seek out anything they can that's related to a show and not just the actors are the representatives anymore. Mr Nimerfro represents Once because he is engaging with fans in his capacity as a writer for the show. There is sort of a perfect storm here because I think this is a person who is used to being able to say whatever he wants with no repercussions, but is also in love with the massive ego boost of all the fan adulation when he claims to be on their side. Seriously, how can there not be corporate guidelines for anyone who represents a show to follow? Most people aren't trained in decent public communication, which might be increasingly a problem with all the social media around. And not just tallking about people using social media more or less for professional reasons, we all have to learn some things. You know what would happen if I had a Twitter account as KAOS Agent - Executive at KA Enterprises and I started saying negative things about the decisions my bosses/coworkers were making or commenting about how hot it would be to see two 13 year old girls making out/having sex or retweeting when customers were making horrible jokes about my coworkers? I would no longer be employed. End of story. Legally it can be a bit more complicate than that. Depending on the exact wording of your statements, context, reach, not to mention what kind of work relation you have. Executive at an enterprise and writer and co-producer for a TV show can be something different. I don't know, what or even if ABC has a social media policy or at least guidelines, let alone that we don't have detailed information about the contracts of cast and crew and to who they are responsible to. As it is often still disputable, what is still okay, what is tasteless, what is borderline, and what has crossed the line - and not everything that might hurt someone's moral sense is legally applicable. I sometimes scratch my head about what social media strategy the show has, it seems to be rather reduced to marketing and lacks a sense of community management, but that is in my observation the usual in business. I wonder if they have just a strategy for the official show account or one including the main cast and the show runners anyway. And, I don't know if they have any kind of social media guidelines or even policy set for cast and crew. I think when dealing with fandoms and not "just" with customers one should not focus alone on marketing but have as much a community management approach, but well, that is my view on things. But we're discussing production and writers' matters here again, aren't we? Maybe said writers are catering to a certain faction of the fandom more than others or maybe a certain faction of the fandom is catering to certain writers more, or it's both, could be a perfect fit, maybe dumb, maybe even smart from a certain point of view. Shipping driven fandoms suck. Edited February 21, 2015 by katusch Link to comment
RedKeep February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 Or maybe this is a special strategy adapted from the Rumplestiltskin work-all-angles playbook. They've designated Nimerfro as "Team SQ", so those fans can feel that they have someone on the writing team "in their corner", keeping a vocal segment of the viewership engaged and appreciated, while continuing to write the same way but throwing a few pieces of "Breaking Glass" their way. This is what I thought for a long time. Like someone already mentioned, Nimerfro was originally on the Hannibal staff and that show has a large following based on a queer fanon couple involving two main characters too. Maybe they thought he would be more adept at handling the SQ part of the OUAT fandom or the SQ fans would take to him more easily because of said Hannibal connection and how that show has (originally, I admittedly didn't follow fandom past s1) embraced fanon shipping. However, if this is indeed a strategy of theirs it has gone way too far. Nimerfro either doesn't understand or doesn't care that he is actively encouraging the worst part of the SQ fandom and the toxic atmosphere that has developed around the show's social media representation. I don't understand why it is so hard for these writers to stop giving people who have admitted to stalking actors they claim to hate on the net 24/7 any attention. I'm sure there are saner fans among SQ, but Nimerfro and Horowitz insist on making the worst of them entitled and justified in their behaviour. They sure aren't making social media life any easier for their actors either. 3 Link to comment
sharky February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 I could maybe see them encouraging the SQers as some sort of fan service, but saying you're going to add "cliterference" to your vocabulary or encouraging two underage girls to make out is not the way to do that. And I'm assuming the actors get some sort of basic social media training, but you can definitely corporate influence sometimes such as live tweeting and such. There are also services that will manage your social media accounts -- I think Ginny has a service or an assistant maintaining her account. But in the end, even if it is your own personal account and you can say whatever you want, corporations can fire you for it, especially if it relates to your job. If you object, maybe instead of responding to Scott, it might be better to tag the OnceABC Twitter or ABC corporate and ask them if this is the kind of thing they want their writers to be doing. 3 Link to comment
Camera One February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 (edited) So here's an exchange with Adam and someone saying he doesn't like Scott engaging SQ and dissing CS/OQ from today: https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/569292987529691137 Adam was defending Scott and saying he was being misread. "Social media is an imperfect way to judge people". Anyway, this tweet was interesting, since it actually referred to something specific: Regency Magic @RegencyMagic 1 hour ago@AdamHorowitzLA Anyway, I was already doubtful to watch 4B after lack of payoff for Hook's heart arc. All this makes it even less likely Adam Horowitz@AdamHorowitzLA@RegencyMagic if you're not gonna watch no point in us chatting. But if you do watch, happy to hear feedback Edited February 22, 2015 by Camera One Link to comment
sharky February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 (edited) Ugh. This is just a mess. Adam asked this moron for proof. If you're going to say Scott is unprofessional, there are plenty of examples. Bring up the cliterference. Bring up the teenage girls making out. Don't keep yammering on and get defensive. Show proof. ETA I'm the moron who take the bait and essentially said using cliterference or encouraging underage girls to make out is disrespectful to Emma. I have to cut Adam some slack -- this is his writer and I'm sure he wouldn't hang Scott out to dry publicly. I also saw the messy temper tantrums in return, which is low hanging fruit in his favor. He may not acknowledge my tweets but a smart response is better than a whiny bratty one and will register hopefully, even if it's a behind the scenes thing that were not privy to. Edited February 22, 2015 by sharky 6 Link to comment
Souris February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 (edited) I hate Twitter. I wish that wasn't Adam and the writing staff's primary interaction with fans. Edited February 22, 2015 by Souris 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 @RegencyMagic if you're not gonna watch no point in us chatting. But if you do watch, happy to hear feedback Adam, give me one reason to believe there's going to be payoff for the Hook arc. There's not going to be any, and you know it. 3 Link to comment
KAOS Agent February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 (edited) I actually think a fan saying that they've been watching from the beginning, but the lack of payoff for a particular storyline has finally driven them to quit watching is excellent feedback. It's anecdotal because it's only one person, but it's concrete evidence that even loyal fans will leave when they feel like the story is never going to payoff. Edited February 22, 2015 by KAOS Agent 5 Link to comment
RadioGirl27 February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 (edited) So here's an exchange with Adam and someone saying he doesn't like Scott engaging SQ and dissing CS/OQ from today: https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/569292987529691137 Adam was defending Scott and saying he was being misread. "Social media is an imperfect way to judge people". Anyway, this tweet was interesting, since it actually referred to something specific: Regency Magic @RegencyMagic 1 hour ago @AdamHorowitzLA Anyway, I was already doubtful to watch 4B after lack of payoff for Hook's heart arc. All this makes it even less likely Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA @RegencyMagic if you're not gonna watch no point in us chatting. But if you do watch, happy to hear feedback All these tweets have been deleted (or I can't find them). But really, Adam doesn't know how to deal with fans, and he should limit to his stupid script teases and the BTS pics and not engage in conversation with the fans. Edited February 22, 2015 by RadioGirl27 Link to comment
Serena February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 You're right, they've been deleted. And now Adam is saying he doesn't support the use of the word cliterference (oh, and also cockblock). 2 Link to comment
sharky February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 Ha! That was my tweet he responded to! Amazing how being a rational fan with a rational response can actually get a rational response from Adam. I actually sent him another tweet to thank him for that. Unfortunately, he sometimes goes for the lowest common denominator like the previous fan who was just spouting crap and wouldn't back it up. 11 Link to comment
Selina K February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 Good for you, Sharky! I'm reading some of the replies with the Captain Rapist refs. Twitter makes me sad. 1 Link to comment
Dani-Ellie February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 (edited) I'm reading some of the replies with the Captain Rapist refs. Oh, ffs. (Not you, Selina K. The Twitter users.) This just kills me. Hook is Captain Innuendo for a season and he might as well have been a perp on SVU. Regina is an actual, canon rapist ("you're now mine ... my pet," "if you ever disobey me, if you ever try to run away, all I have to do is squeeze," and "guards, take him to my bedchamber" don't leave a lot to the imagination) and she's just totally misunderstood, you guys. Edited February 22, 2015 by Dani-Ellie 7 Link to comment
sharky February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 Good for you, Sharky! I'm reading some of the replies with the Captain Rapist refs. Twitter makes me sad. One of those was directed at me -- something like "sounds typical from a Capt Rapist" fan. I told her words like rapist and cliterference have meaning and shouldn't be thrown around lightly. Anyone want to make a bet on how long it will be before she sends me a "shut up old lady you're ugly" tweet. 4 Link to comment
OnceUponAJen February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 One of those was directed at me -- something like "sounds typical from a Capt Rapist" fan. I told her words like rapist and cliterference have meaning and shouldn't be thrown around lightly. Anyone want to make a bet on how long it will be before she sends me a "shut up old lady you're ugly" tweet. Good for you,sharky! I dislike fandom on Twitter. It just has this hit-and-run feeling to it. There's no room for a substantive discussion. 2 Link to comment
Camera One February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 He deleted those tweets and yet he's engaging them again today? I wish he'd just block them all from his twitterfeed. Now there are people complaining that he stayed silent when Sean Maguire called his haters "idiots", which they deserved. 2 Link to comment
Serena March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Is this the trolliest thing Adam has done? I laughed. I wonder who got offended? 2 Link to comment
daxx March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Is this the trolliest thing Adam has done? I laughed. I wonder who got offended? Adam has been and shall always be a troll. He loves trolling the fandom, why I take his tweets with a grain of salt. A really big one. 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 At least it's not a Swan Queen tease, that's all I have to say. 1 Link to comment
Lieutenant March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 Oh my God people. Just NO. Ugh, disgusting idiots need to seriously have respect for people's private lives. It makes me embarrassed to even be a fan of the show at all sometimes. 3 Link to comment
Stuffy March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 (edited) The next time ABC asks JMo to live tweet she should just say "Hell no!" She just can't win with people twisting what she says. Of course Fangirl is at the center of the swan queen drama again. I don't know the crazies tweeting about her about "coffee" or I'd mention them too. Edited March 2, 2015 by Stuffy 3 Link to comment
Souris March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 And THAT is why you shouldn't ship real-life people, especially when one of them is married. I HATE that JMo saw the Colifer crap enough that she had to say something about it. Imagine how uncomfortable that makes her and Colin and Helen to see that. Some people need to be shaken repeatedly until some sense falls into place. Obviously she meant actual coffee with no hidden meaning -- good heavens, the woman always has a Starbucks cup in her hand -- but people are obnoxious and don't think. Dear Lord, the SQers pounce on JMo like lions on a wounded zebra. Sadly, I think she abets that behavior by clarifying and apologizing, because she doesn't want to offend or upset anybody. She's not on enough to see that the people screaming are the same bullying drama mongers as always. Nobody jumped on Lana when she said Emma/Regina's relationship was a friendship tonight. But, of course, Regina's the only one they really care about in that fanship. 6 Link to comment
sharky March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 Ugh. JMo earned some mad respect from me tonight for her tweet. Just makes me like her more -- and Colin and his wife. Despite the ridiculousness of the fandom, she smacked them down while being a total class act in the process. It sucks, yes, but so glad we have someone like her to throw our fandom support to. 6 Link to comment
Minneapple March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 (edited) And THAT is why you shouldn't ship real-life people, especially when one of them is married. I HATE that JMo saw the Colifer crap enough that she had to say something about it. Imagine how uncomfortable that makes her and Colin and Helen to see that. Yeah. And I don't know if Colin and his wife have kids, but imagine they do and they go to google their famous actor dad's name and "Colifer" comes up. How the hell do you explain that to your child? Real-life shipping just creeps me out SO MUCH. I read through Jen's timeline to figure out what happened and she said something about coffee, which is apparently a euphemism for having sex, so a bunch of deranged people decided she and Colin were hooking up? THIS IS WHY THE FOURTH WALL SHOULD GO BACK UP AND STAY UP. FOREVER AND EVER. Apparently Jen also used "Savior/Queen" magic to describe Emma and Regina's combined magic and the SQ fans flipped out because it's WRONG and EVIL to use that tag instead of SwanQueen. Poor Jen. Edited March 2, 2015 by Minneapple 4 Link to comment
Faemonic March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who disrespected Helen and how? I want names. And addresses. And a stock of severed horse heads to hide between the sheets of the people who have done this. Colifer sounds like a veggie floret. 2 Link to comment
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