Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm hardly young--I'm in my mid-thirties, and there are several people of varied demographics that use both social media platforms, I assure you. It's not all bad. ;-)

 

 

Yes, you are young.  I'm hardly young, but you are young.

 

 

It's funny; I'm 33, and sometimes I totally feel like a grandma, depending on where I am. Like, ff.net? I feel like a grandma. Tumblr sometimes, too. Then there was the group of friends I made years ago playing an LJ-based RP where I ended up being one of the babies of the group. LJ led me into discussion of SVU, where I was also one of the babies of our little group. So it kind of all depends on the group.

 

I like Twitter (I actually love Twitter) and Tumblr for what they're good for, but they aren't good platforms for discussion or for creating a community forum. Since my real life friends don't care to discuss TV like I do (they think I'm weird), that's what I enjoy about a place like this.

 

Exactly. Twitter and Tumblr have their places, but I don't think they're going to replace discussion forums any time soon, not for people who really want to get into the kinds of in-depth discussions we do here. There is discussion going on on Tumblr, but depending on how long the thread gets, it looks like it can get unwieldy.

[ABitOFluff]

Does anyone remember eGroups, which became YahooGroups? YG is pretty much dead now, but it was a great place for discussions. I also wish LiveJournal was as active as it once was. You know you've been around online fandoms for a long time when you're constanly moving from community to community looking for some good conversation.

 

I know Reddit doesn't have the best reputation, and it's a pain to read when there are a lot of posts under one thread, but I've been pleasantly surprised by some of the subreddits there. This place is the best I've found in awhile though.

[retrograde]

I like Reddit for some things, but I don't find the OuaT subreddit very good. It is sometimes funny, though. I miss the regular AV Club recaps, as I generally find the comments there intelligent and funny.

[ABitOFluff]

I was so bummed to find out AV Club would no longer be doing the recaps! Agreed, they have some of the funniest commentors. I can't remember, but did TLO ever do regular recaps of OUAT?

[Leia1979]

I think Shanna Marie accurately described why I haven't really gotten into Tumblr. Also, the overload of animated gifs that most pages have hurt my eyes.

 

I love discussion. I'm a fairly frequent Redditor, and it's always about the comments and discussion to me. r/OnceUponaTime isn't all that exciting--it's definitely a different vibe than here, and I can't really handle all the Regina love over there. On the other hand, PTV's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. forums aren't very busy compared to the huge amount of traffic in r/SHIELD. However, those comments tend to be of the one-liner variety, and I don't find it as easy to follow as the very linear and generally much longer responses here.  I think PTV's OUAT forum feels more like TWoP than anyplace else I've found on the internet, which is why I spend so much time here.

 

ETA: I apologize for the abundance of acronyms and initialisms in my post. It's like reading a work email!

Edited November 24, 2014 by Leia1979

[Souris]

Jane Espenson is currently getting a ton of really ugly hate on her Twitter from SQ fans railing about "Adultery Queen." She's being remarkably calm and reasonable about it.

[retrograde]

As much as I dislike the storyline for various reasons, some of the shit being flung at her is just bonkers. Apart from anything, major plot points like Regina and Robin continuing their relationship aren't decided by individual episode writers -- their job is to flesh out the actual scenes and dialogue. 

[Stuffy]

She did handle it well. Also I have to laugh at the person complaining about Regina's reputation being dragged through the mud. Because adulterer, while bad, has to be a step up from her previous reputation as a murdering rapist.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Stuffy

[Souris]

And now I guess Lana is getting hate on Twitter from SQ fans because of a TV Guide interview where she said Regina & Robin are true love and she hopes they end up together. She posted "To #SwanQueen & #OutlawQueen Fans - Let's all continue to enjoy the creative narrative of the writers & root for all ships! #HOPE4ALL #NOH8" and then posted a link to her AfterEllen interview again. Honestly not sure what that latter move was meant to convey.

[Dani-Ellie]

I still don't understand what's so hard to grasp about canon vs. non-canon. Of course Lana is going to be promoting Outlaw Queen in interviews. That's the storyline her character is involved in. I mean, what, do they think she can say, "Oh, I don't know, maybe Robin's just a stepping stone in Regina's development"? Like that wouldn't get her into all kinds of trouble. Much like when people were slamming Jen re: Captain Swan, I have zero idea what the hell these fans expect the actresses to do when it comes to questions about their canon material.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FabulousTater]

And now I guess Lana is getting hate on Twitter from SQ fans because of a TV Guide interview where she said Regina & Robin are true love and she hopes they end up together. She posted "To #SwanQueen & #OutlawQueen Fans - Let's all continue to enjoy the creative narrative of the writers & root for all ships! #HOPE4ALL #NOH8" and then posted a link to her AfterEllen interview again. Honestly not sure what that latter move was meant to convey.

It's probably wrong that I'm laughing at this, but I'm just sitting here thinking "Welcome to JMo and Adam's world, Lana! Isn't it great!?!" Tagging it with the AfterEllen interview is especially amusing.  The takeaway to me is that she did that interview to pander to the SQ militants but now she's using it as a pacifier 'cause looks like the tide turned on her. Gee, all that doesn't seem to work when the audience you're pandering to is cray-cray militants, does it now. Imagine that...unreasonable militants. Inconceivable!

Edited November 26, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Rumsy4]

I find it hilarious that these SQ fans tweeting at Lana are so concerned with adultery (tagged "adultery queen"). Apparently, it's against family values and stuff. Got to roll my eyes at that. 

[Crimson Belle]

Rape, genocide, patricide, oppression of an entire civilization, child neglect and mental abuse. All those are okay, but adultery is the evil to end all evils. (Unless it happened to be a married Emma that Regina is banging on her father's grave.)

[Minneapple]

I think this is why I don't fit in well with fandom and why I stay on the fringes of it. Do I hate the Outlaw Queen pairing? Hells yes. Do I think that it's gross and wrong? Hells yes. Would I go on Twitter and yell at the writers for #AdulteryQueen? Hells no.

[Serena]

But you guys, the real Regina from S1 would never condone adultery! That's why she tried to seduce David.

[Rumsy4]

But you guys, the real Regina from S1 would never condone adultery! That's why she tried to seduce David.

 

And intentionally curse-roofied married couples into other relationships. 

[Faemonic]

I forgot who else broke it down really well about how in the earlier seasons, adultery was clearly A Bad Thing. So, Regina putting the moves on David was a clearly desperate effort to get him away from Mary Margaret when Katherine's curse-marriage was no longer sufficient.

Now, though, Regina's the only one considering that Robin Hood is still married--and then continues with the crypt sex (that does too count as happening again), and encounters Mary Margaret cheering Regina on and providing irrational rationalizations. So, it's not only what Regina does, I think, that sparks the outrage...but the way the world of the show conforms to condoning it.

One handy tip I read of recently (by Dan Olsen, a.k.a. The Foldable Human) is to semi-personify the work as a whole to create a sort of buffer between how the audience takes a "message" and the "opinion" that we can't actually pinpoint who's saying in a collaborative effort such as a television show. If Once Upon A Time were a person, what would zir opinion on adultery be? What about zir opinion on redemption? (Even if the kudos is granted to Regina, though, and Emma's supposed to be the main character but is usually the fish out of water or the foil more than the mood-setter... so, when I think of Once Upon A Time personified, I think of Snow.)

[SilverShadow]

To be honest I was uncomfortable back in Season 1 when the show seemed to want us to root for Mary Margaret and David to have their affair. David's marriage was just another element of drama. The present day scenes of them in "7:15 AM" and "Skin Deep" just read as so sketchy, and they didn't come off as cursed. It came off as a sleezy married dude stringing along a lonely schoolteacher while lying to his wife who was unable to make a freaking decision and stick to it. And yet we were still supposed to want them to be a couple. Like the big kiss at the end of "7:15 AM." Gross, gross, gross.

Edited November 27, 2014 by SilverShadow

[Featherhat]

The AE link is clearly to remind some SQ fans she has said nice, pro SQ things in the past. Those tweets were hopeful to be all things to all people, which in general is impossible but Lana has found it easier than most with this fandom until very recently. I don't hate Lana and she should certainly not receive abuse for  supporting her canon ship, but linking to an AE interview is basically worthless these days. It's the most mainstream Lesbian pop culture site but it's on the PR radar for coverage of shows and interviews with actresses who's characters ever eye fucked another woman briefly mean that that interview doesn't mean anything by and of itself if you try to use it as a shield. I don't think she should have to do so, but she seems to be finding out that trying to appease everyone doesn't work long term.

[HoodlumSheep]

I still don't understand what's so hard to grasp about canon vs. non-canon. Of course Lana is going to be promoting Outlaw Queen in interviews. That's the storyline her character is involved in. I mean, what, do they think she can say, "Oh, I don't know, maybe Robin's just a stepping stone in Regina's development"? Like that wouldn't get her into all kinds of trouble. Much like when people were slamming Jen re: Captain Swan, I have zero idea what the hell these fans expect the actresses to do when it comes to questions about their canon material.

I know that they're kind of obligated to support and talk about their ship, but what if the actresses genuinely like their canon ship? I don't know about Lana, but I think JMo actually likes Captain Swan? They love their fans and I'm sure they support people shipping whatever they want, but they should also be allowed to show their own preference or be able to promote whatever the higher ups tell them to without receiving hate.

Where is the outrage about Josh and Ginny promoting Snowing? Where are all the Snow x Whale fans hiding?

A teeny tiny bit happy that Lana has finally gotten a small taste of what Adam and Jen and whoever else have been dealing with. But also hoping things will cool down.

[Camera One]

Where is the outrage about Josh and Ginny promoting Snowing? Where are all the Snow x Whale fans hiding?

 

More like where's the outrage for the horrible writing for Ginny.  

[KAOS Agent]

More outrageous is that Ginny has talked publicly about how exhausted she is and then I watch and think how much better off she'd be if they'd just let her rest rather than pushing the crap writing she's gotten this season. If I were an outraged fan with Twitter (which I am not), that's the topic for which I'd direct my displeasure with the writers. 

[Camera One]

Yes.  I supposed she might actually want to work.  However, if they made better use of her limited screentime, she could get rest and continue to be the awesome Snow/Mary Margaret we know she could be.  Instead of providing her with emotional scenes or bonding scenes which would be Snow-centric, she has been saddled with boring dialogue for the exposition fairy (most of 3A), character assassinating pep talks with Regina in lieu of scenes where she can deal with her own sadness or issues (3B and The Snow Queen), and lines/entire sequences that makes her look stupid (eg. Zelena scenes in 3 separate episodes all with the same purpose). 

[Dani-Ellie]

I know that they're kind of obligated to support and talk about their ship, but what if the actresses genuinely like their canon ship? I don't know about Lana, but I think JMo actually likes Captain Swan? They love their fans and I'm sure they support people shipping whatever they want, but they should also be allowed to show their own preference or be able to promote whatever the higher ups tell them to without receiving hate.

 

Oh, absolutely. This goes back to the discussion we had a couple months back regarding differences of opinion. The actresses have their own opinions based on what they believe is best for their characters, and just as the fans may want to wave their SQ/OQ/CS/XYZ flag in the air, the actresses should be able to as well without the fans jumping down their throats. Fans can still ship Ship X even if the actors involved don't because frankly, the actors' opinions are just that ... opinions.

 

Even still, I simply do not understand why these fans continually harp about being "ignored" in interviews about canon material. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about Emma and Regina not being a couple on the actual show, especially now that both of them are in relationships with other people on the actual show. I mean, I'm all for crack ships and subtext ships but by their very nature, they do not trump what is being shown every Sunday night. Interviews for outfits like TV Guide and Entertainment Weekly and TV Line or even the talk shows are not going to address non-canon material because interviews are, by and large, advertisements for the show. So yeah, they're going to talk about what's actually happening onscreen.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Faemonic]

I get that social media is supposed to be seen as this great marketing opportunity and to keep an ear to the fanbase, and it's just adorable when members of the official media deign or decide to mix with us mere members of fandom. Elatingly adorable. But, wow, somebody should have written up a Survivor's Handbook with an entire chapter dedicated to: Do Not Engage the Shipper Wars. Do. Not. Engage. The. Shipper. Wars.

[sharky]

And that would Ber the whole chapter! No need to elaborate.

[unbrokensavior]

Not that I wish hate on anyone, but it is  just a tiny little bit gratifying to know that people who were previously worshiped and made no attempt to help supposed friends who were being 'bullied' are finally getting a taste of what it was like.

 

I hate to be so vague, but I've gotten some hate and death threats these past few days (which have finally calmed down).  But I think you get what I'm trying to say.

[Souris]

Hate and death threats? Yikes! And yet sadly I am not surprised, because I've seen such things in this fandom too often before. (Once is of course too often.) I hope you reported those!

[unbrokensavior]

 

I hope you reported those!

It was on tumblr, and I just deleted them.  I responded to some of the hate (sent by anonymous users on tumblr), to make my point, and on ff.net, they were by 'guest' reviewers so I couldn't respond to them.  But it's so frustrating when you can't respond to explain your train of thought.

[Souris]

Anonymity on the Internet really brings out the worst in some people. It's like our world's own Spell of Shattered Sight!

 

I've learned the hard way that it really does very little good trying to argue one's point with the type of people who will send hate online; they're clearly not responsive to logic or manners.

[Rumsy4]

It was on tumblr, and I just deleted them.  I responded to some of the hate (sent by anonymous users on tumblr), to make my point, and on ff.net, they were by 'guest' reviewers so I couldn't respond to them.  But it's so frustrating when you can't respond to explain your train of thought.

 

That's terrible! I got some nasty anon reviews on one of my fics at ff.net, so I turned on the "moderate anonymous reviews" option, and just delete the trashy ones. There's no point in explaining things to some people.

[Serena]

So this is definitely gonna be the new source of wank in fandom, and I'm being nice enough to let you know first. You're welcome.

 

The Tumblr staff created a "Year in Review" blog. This is the "most reblogged ship" list they made. Both Captain Swan (#4) and Swan Queen (#20) are on it. CS is actually the number one het ship and the number one canon ship. I actually wouldn't have guessed it, so I'm impressed. But I'm anticipating the wank from both sides.

[pezgirl7]

I haven't seen any wank from the CS side yet, except for self congratulatory and 'haters gonna hate' remarks. Perhaps you consider that wank though. :) I stay far away from SwanQueen blogs, so not sure what they think. But that list... oy vey. I just can't believe that people actually ship real life people who are not close to being in a romantic relationship.

[HoodlumSheep]

Congrats to those parts of the fandom...I guess? That certainly shows a lot of dedication. That list is definitely interesting.

[maryle]

CS is my guilty pleasure, So I'm happy!

But I looked at the list and the r.l ship irk me

[Faemonic]

 

CS is my guilty pleasure, So I'm happy!

But I looked at the list and the r.l ship irk me

 

To add awkwardness to insult, Harry Styles & Louis Tomlinson are more reblogged than CS. Harrumph, I say!

Although, had it been lower on the list or on it at all, I'd still get squicked. How can you ship something you can't know the canon of? I guess with enough disclaimers that it's fanart or fanfiction or personal interpretation for fun and no profit, can save that sort of shipping from being out-and-out libelous but I imagine that's still awkwaaard...

[InsertWordHere]

I've already seen people saying CS is only that high because posters reblog things multiple times, which may be true, but isn't that the case for any ship or fandom?

 

I agree with everyone else about real people shipping. It squicks me out. It even squicks me out with confirmed real life couples, like GG and JD.

[Leia1979]

By "One Direction" do they mean people are 'shipping members of the boy band? I'm very confused.

 

I recently learned #17 (Captain America & Bucky Barnes) is very, very popular on AO3. I was not expecting that. Exist? Sure. Account for 75% of the fics? Color me surprised.

 

I'll stick with my canon (or reasonably canon) ships.

[Faemonic]

By "One Direction" do they mean people are 'shipping members of the boy band?

Yes. Yes, indeedy, that is what it means.

I mean, I can kind of accept that the lines are blurry between a real person and a fiction, especially with celebrities, because of Personality as a job qualification, and Image is an industry standard, and I mean look at Spice World--that girl band did not start out singing in tiny cafes and bouncing band names off each other (I think that's what happened in the movie, I haven't watched it in a while), and there's Being John Malkovitch. So I suppose that some vague sentiment by a lot of strangers that "they're cute together" and a handful of fanfics can't do nearly as much damage to somebody's personal, professional, or real life than tabloid journalism and gossip columns. But I don't knooowwwww that I can " 'ship and let 'ship" on real person shipping for some reason. I guess I'd have to, since it's not against the law and I don't have the time or energy that I wouldn't rather be dedicating to making forum posts here. So, don't mind me, One Direction Shippers, just side-eying and moving along...

[Dani-Ellie]

I've already seen people saying CS is only that high because posters reblog things multiple times, which may be true, but isn't that the case for any ship or fandom?

 

Maybe I'm just being dense, but ... so? (The complaint, not your point.) The list isn't "the ship with the most reblogged unique content." It's "the most reblogged ship." Reblogs of previously reblogged content is still a reblog, yes?

[sharky]

Yea, everyone can reblog anything. If you're a Rumbelle fan, you can just as easily reblog as much as you want.

And yes, I find real person shipping a bit weird too. I keep going back to the fact that some One Direction fanfic writer just got a book deal. Weirdness. And yes that probably would've been me about 25 years ago with NKOTB -- if the Internet was actually as widespread in the Dark Ages as it is now. That's beside the point! ;-)

[FurryFury]

Haha, I've actually thought first "wow, #1 canon ship" (among those, what, 3? on the list) rather than "#1 het". And hell, at least with stuff like John/Sherlock or even Emma/Regina, there is some basis on the shows, interaction, dynamic, etc. But many of the non-RL ships on the list are completely crack. It just amazes (and amuses) me to no end.

Edited December 3, 2014 by FurryFury

[Aliasscape]

Yeah I split my time on tumblr between OUAT and a real person band and was surprised (and disappointed) to learn there's just as much shipping and arguing about  shipping about real life people who've never dated (or aren't even oriented the way they're being shipped) as there is in OUAT fandom. And just as people get angry at the actors for what they're characters do, they get angry at real people for not dating each other.

[retrograde]

Real-person shipping freaks me out, too. But I guess it is oddly heartening to see that homosexuality has become so much more widely accepted now that today's teens look at their favorite boy bands and Youtube personalities and think "Wouldn't it be awesome if they were in a gay relationship with each other?!" (I mean I know some teens have always done this, but it appears to be far more mainstream and out in the open now).

[Minneapple]

I don't think it has much to do with homosexuality being widely accepted. Slash shipping by women is basically the same thing as guys getting hot over two girls kissing. It fetishizes homosexuality. And the worst part is when people who don't ship those slash couples are accused of homophobia -- which I've seen in both Sherlock and Teen Wolf fandoms.

 

And real life shipping is creepy as fuck. I've seen what the Jared/Jensen shippers write about Genevieve Cortese and it's vile. The One Direction fans IIRC once hassled one of the band member's girlfriends so much on Twitter that he had to tell them to back off.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Minneapple

[KAOS Agent]

There are people out there who ship Jen and Lana in real life and that just baffles me. I can understand shipping Swan Queen, but that's based on onscreen interaction and fictional characterization. The idea that the actresses should have some sort of romantic relationship is just beyond my comprehension. 

[Faemonic]

Real-person shipping freaks me out, too. But I guess it is oddly heartening to see that homosexuality has become so much more widely accepted now that today's teens look at their favorite boy bands and Youtube personalities and think "Wouldn't it be awesome if they were in a gay relationship with each other?!" (I mean I know some teens have always done this, but it appears to be far more mainstream and out in the open now).

Nah, in my opinion... I'll use the spoiler tag because I'm a queer Negative Nelly...

the unit of a personal boundary is an individual, so it shouldn't be okay to further a cause (of a group of people) by making presumptuous personal comments (about individual people.) It's still imposing pressure on someone's sexual identity or sexual life, which was kind of the problem in the first place. This can seem to further the cause in terms of uniting the front, but if it's at the cost of individual people then it's still part of the problem. All fronts should be progressing together, but what seems to be propping up the LGB community...is actually kind of kicking down on asexuality as a recognizable and valid sexual identity, for example, compounding on the oppression that aces already get from the heterosexual hegemony.

From another angle, I would actually see real-life same-sex shipping as an indicator that "more widely accepted" isn't enough. Maybe if there were way, way, way more Jack Harknesses, more shows like

, in fiction, or even many more out-and-transparent celebrities, then there wouldn't be quite an intense drive or need or focus on sexual orientation or any representation of it...where it is not present, or wouldn't be our business if it were.

It's a display of relative freedom, but I can't take heart from it because I feel that it's a stop-gap staving off of the realization that representation really isn't enough, that there's still a keen lack of LGBT characters in official media that fanfiction just barely takes the edge off.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Faemonic

[retrograde]

Yeah, you guys make some good points. I haven't really had anything to do with shipping communities -- real-person or fictional characters -- outside of the odd thing I see on tumblr and twitter regarding TV shows. I guess I was looking at it from the perspective of not being able to imagine teenagers openly squeeing over gay relationships when I was in high school. But you're right: that is a skewed way of looking at it, they're not real relationships so it's not really the same thing. 

 

And no question none of it makes up for the lack of LGBT representation in mainstream TV shows (not least of all this one). I guess at least Kurt and Blaine from Glee was in there, that is something (I have no idea how well that relationship was depicted -- I ditched Glee after two seasons -- but it is an actual canon relationship, at least). 

[MaiLuna]

There are people out there who ship Jen and Lana in real life and that just baffles me. I can understand shipping Swan Queen, but that's based on onscreen interaction and fictional characterization. The idea that the actresses should have some sort of romantic relationship is just beyond my comprehension. 

The worst part about that is that some people get really nasty about it, telling Jen to come out of the closet and accusing her of promoting CS just because she's mad and heartbroken since she's in love with Lana and she got married. I really wish I was kidding about this.

[Souris]

And the worst part is when people who don't ship those slash couples are accused of homophobia -- which I've seen in both Sherlock and Teen Wolf fandoms.

 

That's a favorite argument/insult of some SQ fans, too.

 

Real-person shipping makes me SO uncomfortable. Real-people shipping when one or both of the people are not even of the sexual persuasion to make it feasible, or if one or both of the people are married/in a relationship majorly skeevs me out.

 

I admit that there are some celebs who are dating/married where I think, "Oh, they're so cute together!" Or if a celeb couple splits up and I think, "Dang it, that's sad." It's kind of like how I would feel about random people I vaguely know in real life; it's a general desire of mine for people I like to be happy. But mentally putting nonromantic couples together -- no. I don't think it's particularly healthy. It makes the objects of the shipping into, well, objects rather than real people, which I think is a problem of celebrity culture, anyway.