S01.E10: The Black Queen

[proserpina65]

Having watched this episode again last night, it strikes me that Rhaenyra really screwed up by sending Luke to Storm's End with that message.  I realize she didn't have much in the way of messenger choices since Rhaenys was needed to patrol the Gullet and Jace was assigned a much longer journey.  But despite telling her son that Borros Baratheon was a proud man, she sent a "reminder" of his father's oath and failed to include any other incentive to support her.  He obviously took offense at the tone of the message.  Had she been savvier, she might've been able to craft a missive which wouldn't have been so off-putting to him.

Of course, Luke was introduced by the guards as a messenger from "Princess" Rhaenyra Targaryen, and Borros himself referenced the king having already sent an envoy, so probably it was a hopeless mission to begin with.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, rhygirl720 said:

Yes, I remember Drogon being willful, but he mostly obeyed Dany except when he rescued her, and she wanted to go back, and he wasn't having it. Maybe the bond was stronger? maybe she was more Tarq? more magical who knows. 

Theyve snapped at her plenty of times and she had a better relationship with them than anybody on this show has with their dragon

Hell one of the main storylines was her having to chain two of her dragons up cuz they wouldnt listen to her.

[rhygirl720]

3 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Having watched this episode again last night, it strikes me that Rhaenyra really screwed up by sending Luke to Storm's End with that message.  I realize she didn't have much in the way of messenger choices since Rhaenys was needed to patrol the Gullet and Jace was assigned a much longer journey.  But despite telling her son that Borros Baratheon was a proud man, she sent a "reminder" of his father's oath and failed to include any other incentive to support her.  He obviously took offense at the tone of the message.  Had she been savvier, she might've been able to craft a missive which wouldn't have been so off-putting to him.

Of course, Luke was introduced by the guards as a messenger from "Princess" Rhaenyra Targaryen, and Borros himself referenced the king having already sent an envoy, so probably it was a hopeless mission to begin with.

Agreed! The writers have consistently shown Rhaenyra's inability to read the room. Shé seems to navigate the world from a place of entitled power. She isn't nuanced or savvy.

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Theyve snapped at her plenty of times and she had a better relationship with them than anybody on this show has with their dragon

Hell one of the main storylines was her having to chain two of her dragons up cuz they wouldnt listen to her.

Dany seem to understand that the dragon better than our current Targs. My take is she chained them because she was afraid, she couldn't control them. Drogon of course had other ideas.

[Oscirus]

13 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Having watched this episode again last night, it strikes me that Rhaenyra really screwed up by sending Luke to Storm's End with that message.  I realize she didn't have much in the way of messenger choices since Rhaenys was needed to patrol the Gullet and Jace was assigned a much longer journey.  But despite telling her son that Borros Baratheon was a proud man, she sent a "reminder" of his father's oath and failed to include any other incentive to support her.  He obviously took offense at the tone of the message.  Had she been savvier, she might've been able to craft a missive which wouldn't have been so off-putting to him.

Of course, Luke was introduced by the guards as a messenger from "Princess" Rhaenyra Targaryen, and Borros himself referenced the king having already sent an envoy, so probably it was a hopeless mission to begin with.

The more I think about it, the more Im wondering who cares how fast they got there. If she really thought the houses were just going to honor their words without any offers, all she had to do was send them ravens reminding them of this fact. She just needlessly put her kids in danger just to add a personal touch.

[rhygirl720]

I was so hoping Daemon would behead Otto and Syrax torched the rest...

[proserpina65]

45 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

The more I think about it, the more Im wondering who cares how fast they got there. If she really thought the houses were just going to honor their words without any offers, all she had to do was send them ravens reminding them of this fact. She just needlessly put her kids in danger just to add a personal touch.

Well, if Luke had gotten there before Aemond, it might not have mattered.

[Avabelle]

1 hour ago, rhygirl720 said:

Shé seems to navigate the world from a place of entitled power.

Her entitlement comes from the fact that she was named heir to the throne. Regardless of who any of them feel should have been heir she is the actual Heir so while I agree her political savviness leaves a lot to be desired, She should feel entitled to the throne because it is rightfully hers. 
 

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

Her entitlement comes from the fact that she was named heir to the throne. Regardless of who any of them feel should have been heir she is the actual Heir so while I agree her political savviness leaves a lot to be desired, She should feel entitled to the throne because it is rightfully hers. 
 

If GOT taught us anything, its all about who can hold the throne, not whos owed it.  She can feel entitled all she wants, but when you're begging daddy to help you a few days before he dies, that tells me that you're not ready to sit on the throne

[rhygirl720]

1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

Her entitlement comes from the fact that she was named heir to the throne. Regardless of who any of them feel should have been heir she is the actual Heir so while I agree her political savviness leaves a lot to be desired, She should feel entitled to the throne because it is rightfully hers. 
 

That wasn't the point I was making. I believe her entitlement is a lot deeper than that. She acted entitled before she was ever named heir. She is the rightful heir per her father, unfortunately expecting people to behave in ways they have never shown the capacity for...seems short sighted at best. She left Kings Landing because of what had transpired. Did she think it improved with her absence. 

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Dragons are faster than ravens and rhaenys left right for dragonstone as soon as she could. Perhaps a city watch soldier couldve sent something sooner but it wouldve been maybe a couple hours difference at best.

I wasn't sure how long it took them to find Aegon. So was he found in the late morning and crowned at night?  It felt like one night had passed. Because the White Wyrm's house was burned at night. 

They should have least have gotten word of his death if not the crowning. For drama the screenplay makes them look extra unprepared.

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Rhaenyra and Daemon should have been pressing relentlessly for Otto's dismissal for years rather than accept his return as fait accompli. Or pressed Viserys to give them more lands to make Rhaenyra's position as heir apparent stronger. Or at least placed some spies in the king's palace. Instead they did absolutely nothing to prevent the coup or to make sure they are informed immediately when the king died and the only supporters in the capital Daemon could think of were some gold cloaks whom he commanded almost two decades ago. Way to be caught with your pants down, guys.

This is where the time jump between episodes 7 and 8 really hurt.  In the show it's portrayed as if Rhaenyra and Daemon decided to just peace out on Dragonstone and didn't even bother visiting, hence their shock at the redecorating and how much Viserys had declined.  That makes them look stupid, especially since both of them have expressed how much they distrust Otto.  If, instead, we had a scene where a furious Viserys made it clear they weren't welcome after their secret wedding (but, being Viserys, was still unwilling to disinherit Rhaenyra) then at least there would be a logical reason for their absence.  Stay away until he had time to cool off.

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Of course, Luke was introduced by the guards as a messenger from "Princess" Rhaenyra Targaryen, and Borros himself referenced the king having already sent an envoy, so probably it was a hopeless mission to begin with.

Perhaps, but you never really know it's a useless mission until you send someone.

I liked that Luke asserted Rhaenyra's title and dominion in that scene. "I shall take your message back to the Queen."

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

Dany seem to understand that the dragon better than our current Targs. My take is she chained them because she was afraid, she couldn't control them. Drogon of course had other ideas.

Didn’t she chain them because they killed a child? She couldn’t control their hunting. 

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

That wasn't the point I was making. I believe her entitlement is a lot deeper than that. She acted entitled before she was ever named heir. She is the rightful heir per her father, unfortunately expecting people to behave in ways they have never shown the capacity for...seems short sighted at best. She left Kings Landing because of what had transpired. Did she think it improved with her absence. 

I think there is multiple facets to her appearing entitled. I understand her feeling of being ignored or overlooked before she was heir because she was the King's only child and she was not the heir. That appears off.

She felt ignored and overlooked, and truthfully she was. Her father wanted a son for his heir instead of her. Her father wanted someone else who was not her to be his heir. I can understand her acting out and appearing entitled. Then, she is named the heir and has a formal investiture with "all the signs of legitimacy" of being the next ruler of seven kingdoms. After that, no one cares and she is still ignored because everyone expects Viserys will remarry and eventually have a son, who would replace her as heir. She has felt overlooked almost her whole life in the shadow of some male relative that would come along.

Viserys reassures Rhaenyra that she will not be replaced as heir. When the day finally comes for her to assume the throne, the suspicions she's held her entire life became a reality. They usurped her throne in favor of a male relative.

I'll be the first in line to say she should have stayed in King's Landing but I wouldn't say her appearances of entitlement were wrong or misplaced.

Edited October 26, 2022 by AntFTW

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

Yes, I remember Drogon being willful, but he mostly obeyed Dany except when he rescued her, and she wanted to go back, and he wasn't having it. Maybe the bond was stronger? maybe she was more Tarq? more magical who knows. 

Bear in mind that Daenerys was literally the mother of her three dragons as far as she and they were concerned. Their bond was on a more instinctual level.

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Theyve snapped at her plenty of times and she had a better relationship with them than anybody on this show has with their dragon

Hell one of the main storylines was her having to chain two of her dragons up cuz they wouldnt listen to her.

To be precise, Drogon ate a child while roaming freerange without Dany around and she chained up Rhaegal and Viserion because she was afraid of the same thing happening, since her lack of formal instruction made her doubt her ability to control them the way her ancestors did. She'd have chained up Drogon too, but he was harder to corner.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Stardancer Supreme]

23 hours ago, snickers said:

as for the comments on how can Rhae/beesbury/Matt daemon think viserys was well, I have a theory- daemon knew they were feeding him milk of the poppy, then when viserys quit taking it he was more coherent (he showed up to work) so I think perhaps as long as viserys was off the poppy he was “well” 

and it would be suspicious the minute u leave your loved one dies, especially in the hands of the hightowers, if this was the lannisters it be the same thing….

There is a more human explanation for this; when people are real close to a family member, they "see" the person as they were in their prime. It boggles my mind when family is so surprised and scream "He's too young to die!" when Pop Pop stopped taking care of himself 20 years ago, is damn near 100 and is clearly starting to resemble the Cryptkeeper.  I have a hard time agreeing with the above sentiment when I can see that you are making arrangements with the Higher Power to see them soon!  Viserys looked like he died years ago in Episode 9 and his body simply didn't know it.  Yes, Rhaenyra and Daemon could have stayed behind after that disastrous Last Supper, but then Otto probably would have had them all killed as soon as Viserys' death was discovered. 

[FnkyChkn34]

On 10/25/2022 at 11:18 PM, ShannaB said:

If you check out his IMDb page with photo it seems that chin is for real.  The white hair just makes it stand out more.  His face is leaner now as well.

And probably some excellent work by the make-up department to do contouring.

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, Cristofle said:

for the time being I think he intends to help Rhaenyra take the throne, not take it for himself.

Could it be both, first to help Rhaenyra and then kill her and Jace? *That* would be interesting.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Well, if Luke had gotten there before Aemond, it might not have mattered.

That "if" wasn't likely, because Otto and Alicent had more time to act than Rhaenyra who, if *she* had any sense, should have realized that. 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

She felt ignored and overlooked, and truthfully she was. Her father wanted a son for his heir instead of her. Her father wanted someone else who was not her to be his heir. I can understand her acting out and appearing entitled.

She knew that his father was chosen to king over her aunt, so if she had any kind of gasp of the reality she couldn't even expect to be named as heir. And actually she was only named because Viserys thought his younger brother unfit to become king and felt remorse for forcing her wife to bear so much pregnancies in order to get a son.

No doubt she was ignored and overlooked by her father but other kind of father than Viserys, while not wanting his daugher as his heir, would have loved and cared for her *as a person*. Then she could perhaps have understood that there was benefits not to be the heir, most of all more personal freedom.

As it was, she wanted to become the heir in order not to be ignored and overlooked, not realizing that then she would also fullfill duties. She wanted the prize without paying the prise.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

but then Otto probably would have had them all killed as soon as Viserys' death was discovered. 

Only if they were stupid enough not to have bodyguards and not to have someone to taste their foods and drinks. 

Plus, if Rhaenyra had been near her father's bed, she would be first to know of his death, not Alicent who would then never have heard and misunderstood Viserys' words avout prophesy. 

[Avabelle]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

not Alicent who would then never have heard and misunderstood Viserys' words avout prophesy. 

I think Alicent would have found a way to justify her behaviour regardless of the Viscerys death bed “misunderstanding”. Otto would have gotten into her head and Rhaenyra would have done something else that she would have used to justify usurping the throne. 

[Cristofle]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Could it be both, first to help Rhaenyra and then kill her and Jace? *That* would be interesting.

I don't think so. I don't think the intention of Daemon is to be a 100% villain - the writers and the actor have consistently said that he does love his family, just not necessarily in a healthy way that allows for good relationships, lol. I don't think this spec has any basis in the show thus far. 

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

There is a more human explanation for this; when people are real close to a family member, they "see" the person as they were in their prime.

Only *if* they see that person day by day like Alicent. But as Rhaenyra and Daemon haven't seen Viserys for years, so they can't help but see how he has changed - he was bedridden and the other side of his face was rotten.  

[Roseanna]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:04 AM, cambridgeguy said:

I'm not sure Otto could have done much because if word got out he was trying to rally support behind Aegon then he would have been screwed.  Getting Tyland and the people in Kings Landing on his side is one thing since they saw each other all the time, but sending ravens and emissaries means people would talk.  Maybe if he were as clever as Tywin, Olenna,  or early seasons Tyrion he could have pulled it off, but I'm not sure he's in their league.

Why would the word got out? Otto could f.ex. go hunting or to talk about the military affairs and when in private advance very carefully, probing if they were dissatisfied with something and what their ambitions were.  

The conspiracy of the German officiers lasted for years and was revealed only because Stauffenberg's bomb failed to kill Hitler. Participants met each other in the natural way (work, relatives's birthdays, musical evenings etc).

[SharonH58]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:17 PM, aquarian1 said:

I hope there's a lot less labor and delivery in season 2.  It seems nearly every ep has been baby heavy in one way or another.  (Yes, I know children, and family lines/trees, are important for succession I just didn't need to see so many bloody (literally) deliveries).

Luke was not smart in dracarysing Vager and Aemon, even if he wasn't trying to kill them.  I understand why though - he was scared,

I don't think you just spontaneously have a miscarriage with bad news.   Enough bloody births.    

Luke didn't tell his dragon to dracaryse.   The dragon did it itself as it was scared.  Same with Vager.   He said no baby dragon is spitting fire in my face!   

[paigow]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:31 PM, Constantinople said:

Maester Gerardys on Dragonstone is Jimmy from Quadrophenia. Pity. He used to be such a snappy dresser.

Does this mean Sting will appear in Season 2???

Edited October 27, 2022 by paigow

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

She knew that his father was chosen to king over her aunt, so if she had any kind of gasp of the reality she couldn't even expect to be named as heir.

I disagree because her father’s and Rhaenys’ circumstances were different. One can argue that Rhaenys and Viserys, both as grandchildren to the previous king, had an equal claim to the Iron Throne. Rhaenys was passed over for someone who, arguably, had just as much of a claim to the Iron Throne as her. Additionally, the fact that Rhaenys was considered as a potential heir is a good reason for Rhaenyra to believe she would, at least, be considered as a potential heir, and being the only child of the King at the time only helps that belief. Before Aemma died, she wasn’t even considered for the position as heir.

When Rhaenyra was named heir, she was the only living offspring to the current King. To me, that’s a powerful argument in Rhaenyra’s favor. There was no one else to pass on the King’s lands, titles, holdings or whatever other things Westerosi monarchs, Lords, and Lady-Lords pass onto the next generation. She was the only person of the next generation that the Throne could be passed to at the time. That one circumstance which was not true of Rhaenys, IMO, was an overwhelming one in Rhaenyra’s favor.

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Perhaps, but you never really know it's a useless mission until you send someone.

Oh, absolutely, she couldn't have known it was useless.  It just makes Luke's death all that much sadder because we saw that ultimately he had no chance of succeeding in his mission.

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I disagree because her father’s and Rhaenys’ circumstances were different. One can argue that Rhaenys and Viserys, both as grandchildren to the previous king, had an equal claim to the Iron Throne. Rhaenys was passed over for someone who, arguably, had just as much of a claim to the Iron Throne as her. Additionally, the fact that Rhaenys was considered as a potential heir is a good reason for Rhaenyra to believe she would, at least, be considered as a potential heir, and being the only child of the King at the time only helps that belief. Before Aemma died, she wasn’t even considered for the position as heir.

When Rhaenyra was named heir, she was the only living offspring to the current King. To me, that’s a powerful argument in Rhaenyra’s favor. There was no one else to pass on the King’s lands, titles, holdings or whatever other things Westerosi monarchs, Lords, and Lady-Lords pass onto the next generation. She was the only person of the next generation that the Throne could be passed to at the time. That one circumstance which was not true of Rhaenys, IMO, was an overwhelming one in Rhaenyra’s favor.

Except that then he had 2 healthy sons who reasonably could have been expected to supplant Rhaenyra in the line of succession in a primarily patriarchal system; indeed, many of the lords at Aegon's second name day gathering fully expected Viserys to change heirs at that point.

The only reason that Rhaenys was even in contention was that Jaehaerys' sons were already dead.  Had her father, the eldest, been dead but Viserys' father, the younger son, still been alive, Rhaenys would've been bypassed.

So Rhaenyra should've been a little more aware of the possibility of being supplanted.  That she wasn't was down to Viserys' love for her.

Edited to note: this was just as much on Viserys'.  He knew damned well several of his lords were pushing to replace Rhaenyra as heir but he didn't do nearly enough to support her claim and prepare her for the role, imo.

Edited October 27, 2022 by proserpina65

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Except that then he had 2 healthy sons who reasonably could have been expected to supplant Rhaenyra in the line of succession in a primarily patriarchal system; indeed, many of the lords at Aegon's second name day gathering fully expected Viserys to change heirs at that point.

I understand that but I'm referring the time period up to the point that she was named as heir and was also an only child.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

The only reason that Rhaenys was even in contention was that Jaehaerys' sons were already dead.  Had her father, the eldest, been dead but Viserys' father, the younger son, still been alive, Rhaenys would've been bypassed.

Yes, and that's why I say that both Viserys and Rhaenys had an arguably equal claim to the Throne. The circumstances made it so that they both were in the same position, and she was ultimately considered.

We can say that her consideration was a sham and the Lords of Westeros would have never let a woman ascend to the Iron Throne, and I wouldn't disagree with that. I suspect that to be the case. However, regardless of whether it was a sham, Rhaenys was considered as a potential heir so it is reasonable for Rhaenyra to think that she would be a potential heir because, at the time, she was the only child of the King.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

So Rhaenyra should've been a little more aware of the possibility of being supplanted.  That she wasn't was down to Viserys' love for her.

She was hyper aware of the possibility of being supplanted. Viserys had to reassure and swear to her that she wouldn't be supplanted as heir. I would say that she should have been aware of the possibility of her position being usurped.

ETA: I misinterpreted. I thought you meant being formally supplanted by Viserys.

Edited October 27, 2022 by AntFTW

[proserpina65]

On a different note: on another site, a commenter pointed out that the Maester had stitched Aemond's eye up after the fight at Driftmark, so at some point in the following 6 years, he must've had the scar tissue cut open to put that sapphire in.  Now that's real commitment to an aesthetic.

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

She was hyper aware of the possibility of being supplanted.

Yes, but she did little to nothing to prepare herself for the role either way.  And then acted quite shocked that the Hightowers did exactly what everyone expected them to do.

I just find some of her behavior contradictory and a bit perplexing, honestly.  Doesn't keep her from being an interesting character, though.

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yes, but she did little to nothing to prepare herself for the role either way.  And then acted quite shocked that the Hightowers did exactly what everyone expected them to do.

I misinterpreted. I thought you meant being formally replaced by Viserys. I edited my previous post the moment after I pressed the 'submit' button 🤣

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yes, but she did little to nothing to prepare herself for the role either way.  And then acted quite shocked that the Hightowers did exactly what everyone expected them to do.

Agreed though! She didn't do much.

On one end, I ask how much should she take the role serious if she truly believes her father will replace her for his son. On the other end, I feel like she should have taken the role seriously and made herself a more "irreplaceable" heir.

[proserpina65]

34 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I misinterpreted. I thought you meant being formally replaced by Viserys. I edited my previous post the moment after I pressed the 'submit' button 🤣

No problem.  Thank goodness for the edit button.

[paigow]

50 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

so at some point in the following 6 years, he must've had the scar tissue cut open to put that sapphire in.  Now that's real commitment to an aesthetic.

Probably inspired by seeing a royal stonemason- who lost an eye in a workplace accident- rocking a common bright pebble... 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

When Rhaenyra was named heir, she was the only living offspring to the current King. To me, that’s a powerful argument in Rhaenyra’s favor. There was no one else to pass on the King’s lands, titles, holdings or whatever other things Westerosi monarchs, Lords, and Lady-Lords pass onto the next generation. She was the only person of the next generation that the Throne could be passed to at the time. That one circumstance which was not true of Rhaenys, IMO, was an overwhelming one in Rhaenyra’s favor.

Actually, in such cases the younger brother of the king was the obvious heir, not his daughter.

[Roseanna]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:58 AM, DigitalCount said:

there's nothing that actually makes the Greens seem good or supportable in and of themselves.

So far, the Greens have been far smarter, making plans and and carrying them out swiftly and resolutely whereas Rhaenyra has just eaten lotus and made blunders.

The only thing in which she has succeeded was to secure Gorlys with his fleet as an ally. And considering that he believes that her sons are aren't by his blood *and* she murdered his son, I don't find it likely.

[Notwisconsin]

Remember that old Chinese saying: "If you strike the King you must kill him?" That is the moral of this story. Period.

[proserpina65]

9 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

Remember that old Chinese saying: "If you strike the King you must kill him?" That is the moral of this story. Period.

Or, as Omar put it on The Wire, "You come at the king, you best not miss". 

[Oscirus]

Unless we get new married couples in season 2, I reckon thats the last of the miscarriage scenes we'll be seeing since Id imagine these people would be too busy warring to make babies.

[Oscirus]

The fact that the hightowers were clearly running the kingdom in viserys's absence and both Rhaenyra and daemon saw this and said sounds reasonable to me and peaced back out to dragonstone knowing Viserys was on the verge of death demonstrates had much they sucked at the game. 

Otto's legit not that good at the game, the other sides just been that bad.

[Johnny Dollar]

Rhaenys should’ve been the envoy to visit House Baratheon, since she is directly related through her mother. 

[magdalene]

20 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And probably some excellent work by the make-up department to do contouring.

I saw some season 1 set pics of Ewan Mitchell on Lovely PS. He looks a lot younger out of Aemond make-up and smiling. Seeing those I can believe he is twenty. He looks about the same age as the Jace actor.

[bluvelvet]

Something I noted on re-watch, we see Jacerys learning high Valeryian in the last episode, yet here it seems as if Lucerys seems to have command of the language?

[CeeBeeGee]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:41 PM, Cristofle said:

Oh, however it's done, Aemond has done a terrible thing that he had no business starting given the circumstances. Killing a member of his family - who was under a peace banner, no less - is a grave, grave crime in Westeros. It's a literal war crime. And to be publicly known as a kinslayer is even worse than Jaime was seen in GoT, regarded as the kingslayer. As Jaime said himself, it didn't matter how terrible Aerys was - they still never forgot or forgave or trusted Jaime again. No one else gives a shit that Aemond lost his eye several years ago - if anything, it means no one would believe him if he were to claim it was an accident. No one's going to give him a pass for that. Aemond was arrogant and careless. He's the same spiteful, stupid brat he was that night he tried to take on four angry, grieving kids at once. Anyone could have foreseen that his little game was easily bound to end in Luke's death - Vhagar was terrifying Arrax, and young dragons are erratic. We SAW him learn all those years ago that younger dragons have a harder time listening. Aemond is filled with the same malicious hubris he had all those years ago. He's learned nothing.

When he was a kid, he was a shitty bully. Now he's a Kinslayer who just started a civil war. Congratulations, jackass! You've learned nothing.

Did it make you feel good to menace a young boy and a young dragon with your enormous one? Feel like a man to see the terror on your nephew's face? Oh, except at the end, when you realized you'd just shit the bed?

What a fucking [c-word].

On 10/23/2022 at 11:00 PM, proserpina65 said:

That shot of Arrax from below when the lightning briefly showed Vhagar above him reminded me of the opening shot of Star Wars with the small space ship being pursued by the Imperial battle cruiser. 

I thought the exact same thing! I'm sure it was intentional.

On 10/23/2022 at 11:01 PM, scarynikki12 said:

Here's my take on Baratheon's tantrum about Luke not coming with gifts or offers: if he were truly honorable his oath would be enough. When he took over for his father he presumably was expected to honor the oaths his father took on behalf of House Baratheon. His father stood in Harrenhal and swore allegiance to Rhaenerya as Viserys' heir. If Junior here had no intention of honoring that oath then no one can count on his house to keep their word on anything else. Apparently all anyone has to do is show up and kiss his ass sufficiently and he'll do whatever you want. It's a wonder the house was still standing when Game Of Thrones began.

THIS. If customs and understandings are meaningless, then nothing stands for anything. Civilization stops.

On 10/23/2022 at 11:07 PM, CountryGirl said:

Viserion and Rhaegal for me. 

Oh my God, I sobbed when Viserion was murdered. And once I realized what was happening to Rhaegal, I threw up a hand to block the screen and immediately turned off the sound. Fuck Urine and the Night King.

On 10/24/2022 at 1:40 PM, Cristofle said:

I mean...if the argument is that Luke underestimated what an unhinged psychopath Aemond apparently is...I guess. But it's an actual war crime to harm Luke as an envoy. Aemond has committed a war crime. They did not happen upon each other in a neutral place. No one will ever believe it's an accident, to the point where I still doubt he'll even try to pass it off as one. Luke was sent there as an envoy by his mother who is also his queen. Maybe Luke should have guessed that Aemond is the same spiteful, malicious, short-sighted brat he's been all his life, but he wasn't there for some unimportant reason. 

Yep. You cannot simply attack an envoy--the medieval world on which Westeros is based frowned heavily on that. There's a scene in GOT between Danaerys and the envoy from Yunkai--Drogon shrieks threateningly at him after he speaks sharply to Dany and the envoy protests "you swore me safe conduct!"--the scene is referencing a very well-known jus in bello. (Which is why I detest the scene in 300 when they push the Persian envoy into the void. No one would've treated with Sparta after such a huge violation of the customs of war. It's just a cheap bit to make the scene more "shocking.")

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Rhaenys should’ve been the envoy to visit House Baratheon, since she is directly related through her mother. 

Rhaenys was otherwise occupied

[DigitalCount]

2 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Something I noted on re-watch, we see Jacerys learning high Valeryian in the last episode, yet here it seems as if Lucerys seems to have command of the language?

He may just know what he needs to control his dragon, like specific commands and such. Or knew, I guess :(

[Stardancer Supreme]

14 hours ago, SharonH58 said:

I don't think you just spontaneously have a miscarriage with bad news.   Enough bloody births.    

Childbirth is a bloody, nasty, life-threatening business that women do every day.  Men have to see the gory bits in order to truly understand that women are not the "weaker" sex.  I think I read a comment either here or on a YouTube video that women have shed more blood for the Crown than any man for years and yet have nothing to show for it. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

When he was a kid, he was a shitty bully. Now he's a Kinslayer who just started a civil war.

Have you forgotten that Aemond was bullied first by Aegon and Jace and Luke? And that Jave and Luke just recently reminded Aemond of their cruelty ("pig")?

Jake and Luke aren't no sweet angels. Aemond had a valid cause to revenge on them for losing his eye.  

As for the civil war, it would have started anyway. The chief blame must be put on Viserys.

[Meredith Quill]

I never saw the pig prank as bullying, it was a prank, teasing on ONE occasion. If it had been frequent, repeated and/or relentless then sure, but we were shown only a single instance = 'A' prank. Kids will be kids and as is generally known, kids can be cruel at times because their frontal lobes aren't developed, but that doesn't make them insta-bullies. I loathe that the word bully is so overused these days, it diminishes real bullying when it's applied so widely. I know bc one of my kids was actually bullied, repeatedly and regularly.

If you infer anything beyond one single instance, then that's your own pure speculation and not a universal truth. Ergo, Jace & Luc are not 'bullies' as they have often been accused of, but hey, if it suits your narrative/argument to characterise it as such, you do you.