S01.E10: The Black Queen

[Meredith Quill]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As for the civil war, it would have started anyway.

Nah, to end up at that conclusion we must 100% dismiss that Rhaenrya ever even considered a peaceful solution, which we were shown very clearly she did seriously consider... until her son died.

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The chief blame must be put on Viserys.

You spelled Otto incorrectly.

[Avabelle]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Have you forgotten that Aemond was bullied first by Aegon and Jace and Luke? And that Jave and Luke just recently reminded Aemond of their cruelty ("pig")?

Jake and Luke aren't no sweet angels. Aemond had a valid cause to revenge on them for losing his eye.  

As for the civil war, it would have started anyway. The chief blame must be put on Viserys.

This is Alicent levels of denial and justification. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Avabelle

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

When he was a kid, he was a shitty bully.

Aemond was not the bully when he was a kid.  He was the victim.  Aegon was the clear bully.  Jace and Luke were obviously in on the pig prank, which was a shitty thing to do, but other than that one instance, I'd hesitate to call them bullies since we saw no other evidence although it certainly indicates a possible capacity for it.

Honestly Alicent and Viserys were crappy parents, at least to Aemond.  Alicent didn't care that Aegon bullied him as long as he didn't do it in front of others and prior to the fight at Driftmark Viserys barely seemed to notice his youngest children even existed.  And after the fight, Aemond found out that his father cared less about his having lost an eye than he did about the slander against Rhaenyra and his grandsons.  That realization had to have been as painful as the actual wound.

That doesn't in any way excuse how Aemond behaved at Storm's End, which absolutely was deranged, but it does add complexity to his character.  I tend to prefer characters who aren't just cardboard caricatures of villainy and I like that HOTD isn't making Aemond one.  Not that he isn't clearly a villain, but he's one with layers.

12 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I thought the exact same thing! I'm sure it was intentional.

According to a interview with Greg Yaitanes, the director of this episode, that was exactly what he was trying to invoke with that shot.  If I can find it again, I'll post a link.

Edited October 28, 2022 by proserpina65
you'd think by now I'd know how to spell "Viserys", but you'd be wrong

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I never saw the pig prank as bullying, it was a prank, teasing on ONE occasion. If it had been frequent, repeated and/or relentless then sure, but we were shown only a single instance = 'A' prank. Kids will be kids and as is generally known, kids can be cruel at times because their frontal lobes aren't developed, but that doesn't make them insta-bullies. I loathe that the word bully is so overused these days, it diminishes real bullying when it's applied so widely. I know bc one of my kids was actually bullied, repeatedly and regularly.

If you infer anything beyond one single instance, then that's your own pure speculation and not a universal truth. Ergo, Jace & Luc are not 'bullies' as they have often been accused of, but hey, if it suits your narrative/argument to characterise it as such, you do you.

100% agree - on all points. I was bullied in junior high, name-calling of the "slut" and "whore" variety as well as being kicked, tripped, and pushed with the bruises to show for it. Multiple instances. 

Andplusalso -  We've debated ad nauseum about that incident and I'm not looking to rehash it as I do hold him partially responsible and my mind is not going to be changed on that.

Don't want to lose an eye? Maybe don't threaten to bash in someone's head with a rock.

Aemond lost his eye and I'm not saying that is no big deal, but Luc lost his LIFE.

These are worlds apart and Aemond's losing his eye is zero justification for him to chase and hunt down Luc, much less kill him. Because yes, I hold him entirely responsible. He chose to follow after Luc, who very clearly stated he was not there to fight but as a messenger only. He chased after him on dragon-back, taunting him and cackling, gleeful over Luc's fear, revving Vhagar up like an engine and his worthless "No, no" when it was obvious Vhagar, reading her rider's mood, was going for the kill, was far too little and too late. 

That the war would have happened anyway is not a foregone conclusion IMO as I think Rhaenyra was leaning toward peace and was visibly touched seeing the page from the book that Alicent sent. But Aemond killing Luc was the point of no return. 

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

These are worlds apart and Aemond's losing his eye is zero justification for him to chase and hunt down Luc, much less kill him. Because yes, I hold him entirely responsible. He chose to follow after Luc, who very clearly stated he was not there to fight but as a messenger only. He chased after him on dragon-back, taunting him and cackling, gleeful over Luc's fear, revving Vhagar up like an engine and his worthless "No, no" when it was obvious Vhagar, reading her rider's mood, was going for the kill, was far too little and too late. 

I absolutely agree.  Whatever Aemond's reasons, what he did was wrong.  And he may not have intended to kill Luke, but he was playing a stupid, dangerous game with the Westeros equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction - he should've known it was not likely to end well.  So Luke's death, however unintended it might have been, was completely Aemond's fault.

As for the war being inevitable, I think it probably was, simply because there's no way Otto Hightower would've honored the offer being made to Rhaenyra.

[rhygirl720]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I absolutely agree.  Whatever Aemond's reasons, what he did was wrong.  And he may not have intended to kill Luke, but he was playing a stupid, dangerous game with the Westeros equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction - he should've known it was not likely to end well.  So Luke's death, however unintended it might have been, was completely Aemond's fault.

As for the war being inevitable, I think it probably was, simply because there's no way Otto Hightower would've honored the offer being made to Rhaenyra.

Since the birth of Aegon, Otto had made it clear to Alicent that a civil war was inevitable as the realm would never accept a woman as ruler. Rhaenys also made that point Rhaenyra on several occasions. There is no way Otto would honor any peace treaty.

Aemond was bullied by his brother. The other boys were willing participants however there is a significant age difference. Aemond is fully responsible for the death of Luke and his dragon. Accidently or not. His character is layered, and I like it although I don't necessarily like him.

I won't rehash the eye for an eye dilemma. As I said there is an age difference in play here.

The control or lack of control was interesting to watch to me. Daemon, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys exhibited full control over their dragons. Their riders were all in danger but were able to stop their dragons from acting out. Luke and Aemond not so much. I wonder if this is related to the purity of the blood. Interesting concept.

Daemon singing to that dragon was mesmerizing. Dragon charmer?

[proserpina65]

20 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

The control or lack of control was interesting to watch to me. Daemon, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys exhibited full control over their dragons. Their riders were all in danger but were able to stop their dragons from acting out. Luke and Aemond not so much. I wonder if this is related to the purity of the blood.

I think it may have more to do with how long they've had their dragons and the dragons' ages.  Daemon, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys have been bonded with their dragons for many years, probably since they were small children.  Luke had Arrax since he hatched, but a much shorter length of time nonetheless and Arrax was still a young dragon.  Aemond's only been bonded with Vhagar for 6 years, which isn't really that long a time to get to a relationship where the dragon will listen to him all the time; add in her immense age, and his tenuous control over her isn't entirely surprising.

Edited October 28, 2022 by proserpina65
typing is not my friend this morning

[rhygirl720]

11 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I think it may have more to do with how long they've had their dragons and the dragons' ages.  Daemon, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys have been bonded with their dragons for many years, probably since they were small children.  Luke had Arrax since he hatched, but a much shorter length of time nonetheless and Arrax was still a young dragon.  Aemond's only been bonded with Vhagar for 6 years, which isn't really that long a time to get to a relationship where the dragon will listen to him all the time; add in her immense age, and his tenuous control over her isn't entirely surprising.

Yes, I considered that. But Rhaenyra at 14 had more control of Syrax.  Meeting on the bridge at Dragonstone with Daemon. So, might be more to it.  Also, Laena being torched by Vhagar when she clearly didn't want to, who she claimed at 15? so 10-12 yrs of bonding? 

[Affogato]

I don't think there is enough information given on the show to construct a clear view of the dragon/rider bond in this show, such as and if it exists, much less to make subtle comparisons between different riders. I do think that Raenerys, for all her entitlement and issues, was probably well schooled in the dangers of dragons by her father, but that during his dragon riding years Viserys probably had no control and not much contact with Aemond. But whether Vhaegar torched her mistress because she sensed emotions and needs, or because she was ordered to by someone she respected, or ?, who can tell? Does Vhaegar regret letting Aemond take her, in her immediate loneliness, or does she relish the bond? Who can tell.

[go4luca]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:00 PM, proserpina65 said:

That shot of Arrax from below when the lightning briefly showed Vhagar above him reminded me of the opening shot of Star Wars with the small space ship being pursued by the Imperial battle cruiser. 

14 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I thought the exact same thing! I'm sure it was intentional.

While @proserpina65 tries to find the link referencing Star Wars, for the actual chase, the DP, Pepe Avila Del Pino, mentioned Top Gun as one inspiration:

Quote

I worked on the ‘dragon chase’ for over a year. I started putting together an edit with airplane sequences with movies like Top Gun and other dragon films, just to have a sense of what camera moves and rules we would like to use. From there, @gregyaitanes and I choreographed the sequence with dragon toys, shooting them with our iPhones.- pure fun - And then we spend months working with storyboards, animatics and Previs sequences.

I knew early on, that staging the scene during day and in a storm, instead of at night would help us in two ways: narratively to build tension…. a sense of threat and dread.

But also practically: I knew the lighting, the water and the clouds would work great on ‘the volume’. We would be able to get a lot of shots in camera with this tech in this atmosphere.

Of course, then came the magic of Angus Bickerton (VFX supervisor) and his team to make it all come together along with the stellar performances of Ewan Mitchell and Elliot Grihault @elliotgri

Source:  https://www.instagram.com/p/CkHRjPWupis/

[proserpina65]

I was driving home last, pondering the online speculation about the possible true paternity of Helaena's children and realized I was shipping Aemond with his own damned sister!  GRRM, what the hell have you done to me??????

Interview with Greg Yaitanes:

https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-finale-ending-explained-director-interview.html

Here it is.  The relevant part is about 5 sections down from the top.

Edited October 28, 2022 by proserpina65

[bluvelvet]

9 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I was driving home last, pondering the online speculation about the possible true paternity of Helaena's children and realized I was shipping Aemond with his own damned sister!  GRRM, what the hell have you done to me??????

Interview with Greg Yaitanes:

https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-finale-ending-explained-director-interview.html

Here it is.  The relevant part is about 5 sections down from the top.

While I don’t ship Aemond and his sister, I’m surprised he would agree to a betrothal to a Baratheon.  Aemond somewhat strikes me as a purist who would want someone with Valeryian blood. Technically his Valeryian blood is already weakened by his mother. 

[rhygirl720]

35 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I don't think there is enough information given on the show to construct a clear view of the dragon/rider bond in this show, such as and if it exists, much less to make subtle comparisons between different riders. I do think that Raenerys, for all her entitlement and issues, was probably well schooled in the dangers of dragons by her father, but that during his dragon riding years Viserys probably had no control and not much contact with Aemond. But whether Vhaegar torched her mistress because she sensed emotions and needs, or because she was ordered to by someone she respected, or ?, who can tell? Does Vhaegar regret letting Aemond take her, in her immediate loneliness, or does she relish the bond? Who can tell.

All very true. Yet the show has chosen to show instances of complete control and instances of lack of control, and I find it highly interesting.

[Oscirus]

If Aemond is a bully for talking shit and deserved to get his eye put out for that ( cuz contrary to popular belief, he got his eye put out for calling them bastards not for threatening their lives), then yes they were bullies for taking part in that pig prank. 

As for the war itself, it was a foregone conclusion, the only thing rhaenyra was doing was making sure she had the backup, which Id be shocked if the Starks dont give her the required manpower.

Even if one believes that maybe that page would magically get her to give up her claim, a hot head like daemon almost surely wouldve done something to get them into the war.

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

The control or lack of control was interesting to watch to me. Daemon, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys exhibited full control over their dragons. Their riders were all in danger but were able to stop their dragons from acting out. Luke and Aemond not so much. I wonder if this is related to the purity of the blood. Interesting concept.

Dany couldnt stop her dragons from eating whatever they want and she probably had more control over her dragons than anybody else in this story.

None of Daemon, Rhaenyra or Rhaenys's dragons were ever in the situation that either vhagar or arrax was in so its impossible to say how much control they mightve had in such a situation. I reckon we'll probably learn as the dance continues.

[Avabelle]

51 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I’m surprised he would agree to a betrothal to a Baratheon.

I’d say at this stage of the war he’d be happy to betroth himself to get them the necessary support. 

[PatsyandEddie]

Rhaenyra did say that,  “When dragons go to war, everything gets burned.”

A bit of foreshadowing there. 

[proserpina65]

49 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

I’d say at this stage of the war he’d be happy to betroth himself to get them the necessary support. 

I think "happy" is an overstatement.  "Willing but wishes Aegon would drop dead" is probably a better way to put it.

[Avabelle]

4 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I think "happy" is an overstatement.  "Willing but wishes Aegon would drop dead" is probably a better way to put it.

Probably. Either way the point is he’s willing to do it in the grand scheme of things. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Whatever Aemond's reasons, what he did was wrong. 

I haven't noticed that such concepts as "wrong" has any meaning in this universe. What matters is cleverness, resolve and ruthlessness.

[proserpina65]

Just now, Roseanna said:

I haven't noticed that such concepts as "wrong" has any meaning in this universe. What matters is cleverness, resolve and ruthlessness.

I don't know about other commenters, but I was looking at it from an outside perspective.  As such, it was morally wrong and absolutely unjustified.  (And I say that as someone whose favorite character is Aemond.)

From a Westerosi perspective, it was wrong because it was a terrible misstep likely to ignite a shooting war earlier than it might've started otherwise.  The Greens had the benefit of time on their side, but Aemond's action most likely has cost them time and possibly some potential allies who could very well be put off by brutal, cold-blooded kinslaying.  Which absolutely how others are going to perceive it, no matter what Aemond actually intended.

I don't see Aemond trying to justify it as accidental anyway.  No one besides maybe his mother would believe it, so he's gonna have to lean into the kinslaying thing.

[cambridgeguy]

5 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

While I don’t ship Aemond and his sister, I’m surprised he would agree to a betrothal to a Baratheon.  Aemond somewhat strikes me as a purist who would want someone with Valeryian blood. Technically his Valeryian blood is already weakened by his mother. 

He can always be like Daemon and ignore his wife for years, sleep around, eventually kill her, and then move on to someone with a better bloodline.  One of Aegon's kids is a girl, right?

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

but it does add complexity to his character.  I tend to prefer characters who aren't just cardboard caricatures of villainy and I like that HOTD isn't making Aemond one.  Not that he isn't clearly a villain, but he's one with layers.

To me, the problem of this show is that there are no "characters", still less ones with layers, but only puppets who act according to the demands of the plot - and the plot demands senseless violence and other shock effects.

[AshleyN]

Just finished up on this season and while generally quite liked it, I'm really hoping that next season can slow down the plot a bit and focus more on the characters. As it was, I found it hard to really care much about anyone outside of the central Targ trio of Rhaenyra/Daemon/Viserys*. I especially hope that we're done with the time jumps, because while I get why they did them, I do think they cost us a lot of really interesting character work. In particular, I really hate that we didn't get to see anyone's reaction to Daemon and Rhaenyra's elopement, especially the Hightower's (given that Daemon is  much more formidable potential opponent than Laenor) and Viserys (given his love/hate relationship with Daemon, his love/frustration relationship with Rhaenyra, and his reaction the last time Daemon tried to marry her).

*Except for Ser Criston I guess, but that's more about me desperately wanting him to get eaten by a dragon.

I also hope, assuming the time jumps are gone, that we can get to spend more time with characters outside of the main ones. One of Game of Thrones' biggest strengths was it's fantastic cast of supporting and side characters, which this show is really lacking right now.* I really hope they find their own Davos/Hound/Bronn/Brienne/etc., not only because it makes for a richer world, but also to lighten the mood amongst this cast of otherwise ultra-serious characters. 

*One of the more jarring points of the season for me was the whole storyline with Harwin Strong in episode 6. Here's this guy that our protagonist apparently cared about enough to risk it all having a decade-long affair and 3 very obviously illegitimate children with, and who's murder should have been a big deal. Only it barely resonated because we'd only had like 3 scenes with him in the whole show.

Also, regarding all the talk about Rhaenyra not doing anything to secure the throne for herself, that ties in with what was probably my single biggest issue with this season, which is the writer's apparent determination to portray her and Alicent as innocent bystanders while the men plunge the realm into war. I don't know if they were trying to make them more sympathetic, or to say something about gender, but I think making them so passive ended up being a huge detriment to both of their characters, and mostly just served to make them look incompetent.

Edited October 29, 2022 by AshleyN

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, AshleyN said:

I especially hope that we're done with the time jumps, because while I get why they did them, I do think they cost us a lot of really interesting character work.

I agree with that. 

It's quite different to hear long afterwards that Rhaenyra had tried to get children with her husband than to see it and how exavtly she made a decision to have an affair with Laenor's brother. Was it for love, sex or to become pregant or two or three combined? And why Viserys really blind or was it OK for him?  

[LanceM]

Ryan Condal the showrunner had stated that the time jumps are done. As far as new characters going forward I am guessing since they were mentioned in episode 10 we will probably see Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark. We also heard they Daemon us headed to the Riverlands so we will probably get sone Tullys.as well. It is also possible we will see more of Borros Baratheon and daughter now betrothed to Aemond. And I am sure we will get additional characters not even mentioned yet.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, AshleyN said:

Also, regarding all the talk about Rhaenyra not doing anything to secure the throne for herself, that ties in with what was probably my single biggest issue with this season, which is the writer's apparent determination to portray her and Alicent as innocent bystanders while the men plunge the realm into war. I don't know if they were trying to make them more sympathetic, or to say something about gender, but I think making them so passive ended up being a huge detriment to both of their characters, and mostly just served to make them look incompetent.

The writers seems to forgotten that there were also active queens in the Middle Ages. And while it's wrong to criticize them for the behavior that would have been accepted from the king, nor should they be absolved for mistakes only because they were women.  

[Ottis]

To underscore how little happens on this show, I discovered today that my device had downloaded eps 8, 9 and 10 out of order. I didn't know that when I watched episode 8, and then thinking it was 9 actually watched 10 - and *nothing* stood out as a gap despite missing ep 9. Oh, there was a reference to Aegon being named king "in front of thousands" ... "in the septim!" I just assumed the show intended for that to be off screen. 

So imagine my shock when I started what I thought was ep 10 and everyone was mourning ... the king's death? What?

This show has a lot of hair, childbirth and examples of men being clods. Don't get me wrong, it is well done - it's just godawful boring.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ottis

[AshleyN]

One thing I found kind of interesting in this episode was the contrast between the ending, with Luke and Aemond struggling to control their dragons, with the scene where Daemon threatens the kingsguard, which was not the first time they've shown Daemon and Caraxes almost seeming to share one mind. Throw in the scene with him singing to Vermithor, and the one with him personally spelunking for dragon's eggs and they seem to be showing him to have the strongest connection to the dragons in general.

Given that they seem to be setting him and Aemond up to be more or less the chief badasses of their respective factions, I wonder if that will play a part in any future confrontation - Aemond/Vhagar have the size advantage, but Daemon and Caraxes have the stronger bond.

Or maybe they just wanted that cool shot of the two of them together in the foreground and background.🤷‍♀️

On 10/25/2022 at 10:28 AM, Enigma X said:

I don't understand why Viserys took Otto back as hand after Strong was murdered. Surely, there was someone else at least equal in crappiness he could have tried out. If the books explained it better than the show, kudos. But the show did not show why he re-installed Otto as his hand.

Agreed. Of all of the mistakes Viserys made in the series, I think this is easily the biggest. The whole reason that he fired Otto in the first place was because he knew he wanted to supplant Rhaenyra as heir so why bring him back and give him another opportunity to do just that?

Honestly, he should have just named Rhaenyra herself Hand IMO. Not only would it have given the Hightowers less opportunity to take control in King's Landing, it would have given Rhaenyra more experience in the day-to-day running of the kingdom and, given that part of the Hand's job is to rule in the King's stead, it would have been a chance for people to get used to being governed by a woman. It also would have made HER, as both the named heir and the Hand, the natural person to become the de facto regent once Viserys got too sick to rule.

On 10/26/2022 at 8:15 AM, The Kings Foot said:

Its worth noting HER reaction.  She's not surprised at him.  And in fact she even understands that in that moment he's more hurt than she is  (He realized he never had Viserys' trust)   and he's lashing out the only way he knows how.  She also understands that the only way to control him is to not escalate.

Make no mistake she knows what he is. She wasnt joking at her wedding when she told him to grab his sword, kill her guards and kidnap her. 

Yeah, I find the dynamic between Daemon and Rhaenyra pretty fascinating, and I think they do genuinely love each other, but their relationship has always been weird and twisted even by Targaryan stardards. I can't imagine it will end in anything but tragedy.

Re: the wedding - at the time I took that as her just calling his bluff, but yeah, as time goes on I'm leaning toward her actually meaning it lol. Then there was the scene in the brothel where, while he definitely had other motivations too, I think Daemon expected her to be shocked and freaked out, only to get freaked out himself when it turned out she was totally into it.

Daemon is nuts, but they've always shown Rhaenyra to have his number and see through him better than anyone else, probably because she can be just as nuts herself, at least when it comes to him.

14 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

Since the birth of Aegon, Otto had made it clear to Alicent that a civil war was inevitable as the realm would never accept a woman as ruler. Rhaenys also made that point Rhaenyra on several occasions. There is no way Otto would honor any peace treaty.

One thing that's been kind of bugging me with all this talk about "the realm" not accepting Rhaenyra, is that without the complicity of Alicent and her kids, there really isn't anything "the realm" could do about it. This isn't like Robert's Rebellion, where you just pick the guy with the closest ties to the royal family to be the figurehead of the rebellion you were launching anyway - the presence of dragons make the politics here completely different. You need dragons, and dragonriders, to mount any real challenge, otherwise the only thing any rebellious Lord would likely get for their efforts would be a King Harren Special that I'm sure Daemon would be only too happy to dish out. And given that last episode showed that Aegon, despite being raised by his mother to think of himself as the future king, had no desire for the role whatsoever and would most likely never have made a play for the throne on his own, the claim that war was inevitable seems a bit more dubious.

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Honestly, he should have just named Rhaenyra herself Hand IMO. Not only would it have given the Hightowers less opportunity to take control in King's Landing, it would have given Rhaenyra more experience in the day-to-day running of the kingdom and, given that part of the Hand's job is to rule in the King's stead, it would have been a chance for people to get used to being governed by a woman. It also would have made HER, as both the named heir and the Hand, the natural person to become the de facto regent once Viserys got too sick to rule.

I don't think it's would be a good idea if the king has Hand who just learns things and whose ability to act and give sound advice is thus limited. It's the job for the able, experieced and loyal person. Rhaenyra could and should have suggested somebody *she* could trust.   

[Meredith Quill]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's would be a good idea if the king has Hand who just learns things and whose ability to act and give sound advice is thus limited. It's the job for the able, experieced and loyal person. 

I agree with this.

My personal take is that as he was clearly already in fairly serious declining health, rather than get into a disagreement with Alicent over it, for an easy life Viserys let her have her way (as she had stated previously to Larys). Which, as king, was rather un-kinglike behaviour, however, being ruled by his heart vs his head wasn't out of the norm for him. Frankly, I think Corlys would've been the best choice for Hand at that stage.

From a Watsonian perspective, when Viserys knew he was no longer able to reign effectively, rather than allow the Hightowers to rule in his name, it seems to me that the wisest course of action would've been to abdicate the throne in favour of Rhaenyra and thereby avoid any attempt to usurp the throne or rebellion. My Doylist take knows that had he done that, there'd be no story to tell, lol. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[AshleyN]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's would be a good idea if the king has Hand who just learns things and whose ability to act and give sound advice is thus limited. It's the job for the able, experieced and loyal person. Rhaenyra could and should have suggested somebody *she* could trust.   

Rhaenyra had been sitting on the Small Council for years at that point, and had been attending meetings for years prior to that as Viserys' cupbearer. She was also Princess of Dragonstone, which aside from being a title used to denote the heir, if I'm not mistaken also made her ruler there the way that Starks ruled Winterfell or the Tullys ruled Riverrun. I'm not sure who, among Team Rhaenyra at least, would have more experience than her at that point?

But again, I think this is one of the spots where the show's need to barrel through plot really hurt it. We don't know how Viserys came to that decision. Did he even consider anyone other than Otto? Did he just not have the energy to argue when Alicent brought it up? Did Rhaenyra push back at all (especially since she was the one who got him to fire Otto in the first place)? Maybe she felt like she was already on thin ice with the whole paternity drama and didn't want to rock the boat more? We're basically just left to guess, which kind of sucks given how major the consequences of that decision were.

Edited October 30, 2022 by AshleyN

[Roseanna]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:30 PM, AshleyN said:

Also, regarding all the talk about Rhaenyra not doing anything to secure the throne for herself, that ties in with what was probably my single biggest issue with this season, which is the writer's apparent determination to portray her and Alicent as innocent bystanders while the men plunge the realm into war. I don't know if they were trying to make them more sympathetic, or to say something about gender, but I think making them so passive ended up being a huge detriment to both of their characters, and mostly just served to make them look incompetent.

Well, Rhaenyra and Alicent aren't exactly described sympathetic here.

I think it's simply due the plot: if Rhaenyra *had* been active, she would have chosen her husband wisely and got children with him, Otto wouldn't become Hand and couldn't have intrigued with members of the Council, she would have been by her father's deathbed and after his death would have crowned Queen. No Civil War, no story - unless Daemon (who wouldn't be married to Rhaenyra) had started it.

On the other hand, Rhaenyra's character (feeling entitlement without having to do anything, always chosing her own desires without thinking consequenses) isn't impossible in the circumstances, especially for a daughter of Viserys.

Basically, Luke's death was demanded by the plot: Rhaenyra needed a motivation to fight. 

Does "Black Queen" mean "Queen of Death"?

[jeansheridan]

On 10/28/2022 at 11:46 AM, Roseanna said:

On 10/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, proserpina65 said:

Whatever Aemond's reasons, what he did was wrong. 

I haven't noticed that such concepts as "wrong" has any meaning in this universe. What matters is cleverness, resolve and ruthlessness.

If you include GOT I would argue Brienne & Daavos operated from an internal sense of right from wrong. Brienne probably is the closest character to an Arthurian knight of the round table. Daavos is a bit more flexible in how he executes things, but when push comes to shove, he saved Gendry, he saved Jon, he understood why Tyrion needed to try to negotiate with Jamie. He fully condemned the Red Woman when he knew what she did. And Brienne and Daavos came in the 2nd season so that may happen.

I actually think Corlys may be someone who follows his own sense of right. So far I can't judge him too harshly. Yes he ignored his son's sexuality but did his son ever push back? Directly? And he clearly made a decision to love his grandsons no matter what. His one scene with Luce he was warm. 

[Roseanna]

On 10/29/2022 at 10:38 PM, AshleyN said:

One thing that's been kind of bugging me with all this talk about "the realm" not accepting Rhaenyra, is that without the complicity of Alicent and her kids, there really isn't anything "the realm" could do about it. This isn't like Robert's Rebellion, where you just pick the guy with the closest ties to the royal family to be the figurehead of the rebellion you were launching anyway - the presence of dragons make the politics here completely different. You need dragons, and dragonriders, to mount any real challenge, otherwise the only thing any rebellious Lord would likely get for their efforts would be a King Harren Special that I'm sure Daemon would be only too happy to dish out.

A good point.

Only, this strength (power is based on dragons) is also the weakness for both Viserys and Rhaenyra feel so entitled and secure that they don't bother, or even have no inkling, to govern well, bring justice (proved that even lords can killed without the court's sentence), make alliances (marriages within the family) - in other words, to be a good ruler.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I actually think Corlys may be someone who follows his own sense of right. So far I can't judge him too harshly. Yes he ignored his son's sexuality but did his son ever push back? Directly? And he clearly made a decision to love his grandsons no matter what. His one scene with Luce he was warm. 

I think it was shown that Gorlys's motive is power. That's why he chose to ignore Rhaenyra's sons' bastardy and his son's murder.

Although Gorlys may love these boys, he still acts wrongly according the morality of that kind of society.

[rhygirl720]

Daemon's song

"Fire breather

Winged leader

But two heads

To a third sing

From my voice:

The fires have spoken

And the price has been paid

With blood magic

With words of flame

With clear eyes

To bind the three

To you I sing

As one we gather

And with three heads

We shall fly as we were destined

Beautifully, freely"

[jeansheridan]

On 10/30/2022 at 11:58 PM, Roseanna said:

Although Gorlys may love these boys, he still acts wrongly according the morality of that kind of society

Doesn't Brienne too? Isn't she an oddity? Unnatural in both size and demeanor? At least in the South. Obviously there's Greyjoy too from the West. 

He does pursue power but that doesn't seem inherently wrong. Power is what keeps his family, his region safe. And by region I mean his small folk. I mean he could still be a Bolton hunting young ladies but thus far they haven't given that impression. We actually know much too little about him and his nature. He did pursue Daemon and married his daughter to him. Daemon had the full grown dragon which gave his house two dragons and strong access to a third. And Eventually his daughter got her own dragon thank you very much. 

The whole bastard thing seems...overdone to me. They're Rhynearas' and there are witnesses to the births. No babyswapping. And since Rhyneara is the direct line to the throne not her husband, shrug. With the Lannisters Cersei was pretending her children were Robert's. Rhyneara knows her kids are related to Aegon the Conqueror. Matriarchy makes so much more sense if people are so fussed about bloodlines. 

[LennieBriscoe]

Well!

An extended stillbirth grotesquerie. 

A death-by-dragon of a teen prince.

And a "Who Killed J.R.?" ending.

Targaryens, I wish I knew how to quit you!

Edited November 3, 2022 by LennieBriscoe

[magdalene]

On 11/1/2022 at 8:51 AM, jeansheridan said:

Matriarchy makes so much more sense if people are so fussed about bloodlines. 

Indeed. And everybody benefits in a Matriarchy, unlike the Patriarchy.   Don't get me started, just the word "Patriarchy" makes me grind my teeth.

[Scarlett45]

On 10/26/2022 at 9:14 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Daemon was also frustrated that Rhaenyra was talking about prophecies at all while in his mind he was feeling the pressure of the enemies bearing down on them in a very immediate way.

That’s how I saw it. I don’t think Daemon cared about the prophecy or any of that. He wanted to get this HANDLED and the war over to secure Rhaenyra’s rule. 

[LennieBriscoe]

Queen-in-Absentia isn't  thrilled with her Consort's usurpation of the Commander-in-Chief (as it were) role. 

[Scarlett45]

I’m late watching this because I had things going on, but I still want to tip my hat to Eve Best as Princess Rhaenys. She didn’t have a flashy role (Paddy did an excellent job as King Viserys but it was a flashier part), but she BROUGHT the quiet determination and subtle facial work in every episode. I can’t wait to see more of her. 
 

I do agree with those up thread who said that we would appreciate more side characters to bring a little levity. Characters like Bronn and Ser Davos from GOT were a part of the highborn world but weren’t “of” that world. I would appreciate a consistent lady in waiting or a dragon keeper who “kept it real” why the great lords play their games. 
 

It will be a long two years!

[cambridgeguy]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:51 AM, jeansheridan said:

The whole bastard thing seems...overdone to me. They're Rhynearas' and there are witnesses to the births. No babyswapping. And since Rhyneara is the direct line to the throne not her husband, shrug. With the Lannisters Cersei was pretending her children were Robert's. Rhyneara knows her kids are related to Aegon the Conqueror. Matriarchy makes so much more sense if people are so fussed about bloodlines. 

So the monarch should just be sleep around then?  And the first kid who pops out is the heir?  Because hey, if we're sure who the child is the biological offspring of the monarch then good enough?  Viserys shouldn't have bothered getting remarried, he should have relived his youth and slept through the Street of Silk if he really wanted spares for his heir. 

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

So the monarch should just be sleep around then?  And the first kid who pops out is the heir?  Because hey, if we're sure who the child is the biological offspring of the monarch then good enough?  Viserys shouldn't have bothered getting remarried, he should have relived his youth and slept through the Street of Silk if he really wanted spares for his heir. 

It's a lot easier to tell who the biological offspring of a monarch is, when that monarch has a uterus to pop them out of.  People may doubt who fathered Rhyneara's kids, but there's no doubt that they are *her* children. 

Whereas short of locking his partner away from any other male contact, there's no way for Viserys - or any King - to be 100% sure of the provenance of his offspring. 

[Ailianna]

On 10/24/2022 at 12:15 AM, Constantinople said:

The main point is that Corlys thinks Rhaenyra is responsible for his son's death yet rather than sit out the war or he's going to fight for Rhaenyra because...reasons.

I just watched the whole season, but I think I saw something here maybe no one else did. I think he now knows his son is alive. I don't think we will see that son again, but when Rhaenys first goes to talk to Rhaenyra and Daemon, there's an abrupt cut when the subject of her "dead" son is raised. I think they told her the truth then. Later, there's a similar cut when she's talking to Corlys and he brings up their dead son. I think she told him the truth at that time. Just the way the two conversations were edited. So when he's suddenly team black, I thought immediately it was because his issue with them was gone, though of course none of them would ever discuss it with anyone else.

[jeansheridan]

17 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

So the monarch should just be sleep around then?  And the first kid who pops out is the heir? 

If the monarch is a female, sure. If we want a RL example, we know all of Queen Elizabeth's kids are hers absolutely. 

The logic of bloodlines following men has never made sense to me. Following bloodlines in general has never made sense but that's the nature of hereditary monarchies so fine. But following the women is the sure thing. I guess since women die in childbirth and men can scatter their seed like...seed, there is a genetic advantage there. His DNA will go forth. But it's never a sure thing it will actually be the man's child. It's so not a sure thing there is all this anxiety and control over women's bodies to try to make it a sure thing. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by jeansheridan

[FozzyBear]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:28 PM, SilverStormm said:

I would guess that when one hears of, and one has good reason to suspect, conspiracy to usurp the throne - no action is considered unthinkable at that point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

The Greens don’t actually have a reason to kill Visarys though. They’re safer with him alive then dead. Rhenerya (or maybe Daemon) actually has the motive to kill him so she can take the throne. I don’t think she ever would have but on paper she has a reason to kill him and then kill his children with Alicent to avoid a civil war. The Greens were better off keeping him barley alive, ruling as a puppet government, and continuing to work on him to officially change the order of succession. Once he died they had to step up their usurping plans waaaay ahead of schedule.

Ultimately I think Visarys failed as a king in the end. Sure he named Rhenyra future Queen but failed to campaign on her behalf to make sure she could actually take the throne. He ignored his children with Alicent creating resentment and fear as to what would happen to them when he died. He refused to see the obvious with Rhaneyras older children putting the alliance with House Vallerian in jeopardy and fueling the idea that Rhaneyra could be taken down. He never sat Rheynera down and explained just what the potential danger of continuing to have very obviously not Vallerian children might be and that maybe she should come up with some way to avoid said problem. Ultimately he sort of picked a successor and then checked out for 20 years letting resentments and conspiracies flourish.

*sorry about the misspelling of names. I don’t really know how to spell English, let alone valerian 

[FozzyBear]

Can someone who has been watching closer then I have explain why we’re going full Threes Company Misunderstanding here with no one mentioning that there are two Aegons in play. Speaking of, where are the twins? Were they not real or something? Were they supposed to be a delusion of Visarys in his illness? I’m very confused about this.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

Speaking of, where are the twins? Were they not real or something? Were they supposed to be a delusion of Visarys in his illness? I’m very confused about this.

Which twins?  Helaena's children with Aegon or the twins on the Kings Guard?