S22.E03: Camouflage

[WendyCR72]

Airing October 6, 2022:

Quote

A deadly subway shooting has Cosgrove and Shaw racing to find the culprit before another attack is orchestrated. Price and Maroun struggle to put their ethical principles aside when the U.S. Attorney's office pushes for the death penalty in the case.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Airing October 6, 2022:

Price and Maroun struggle to put their ethical principles aside when the U.S. Attorney's office pushes for the death penalty in the case

Whoever is in charge of writing out the synopsis needs to just STAHP. Every week it seems Price and Maroun are "struggling" with "ethics" or some such. Oh how I miss the descriptions of seasons past where only the fucking crime was described.

[dttruman]

I thought the title of this episode was Vicious Cycle. I got to get my TV guide button on my cable updated or fixed.

Edited October 7, 2022 by dttruman

[dttruman]

22 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Whoever is in charge of writing out the synopsis needs to just STAHP. Every week it seems Price and Maroun are "struggling" with "ethics" or some such. Oh how I miss the descriptions of seasons past where only the fucking crime was described.

Even when Price and Maroun have discussions, Price sounds like he is giving another summation. IMO, summations are just time wasters. I saw plenty of them on L.A. Law.

Edited October 7, 2022 by dttruman

[MerBearHou]

I am so sick of the platform that L&O has become.  And I suddenly decided that Hugh Dancy is not a great actor when he’s a lawyer or an American.  His manner of speaking is not convincing to me.  Plus it doesn’t help things that he’s given such clunky dialogue that seems to over-explain to the audience.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by MerBearHou

[WendyCR72]

23 minutes ago, dttruman said:

I thought the title of this episode was Vicious Cycle. I got to get my TV guide button on my cable updated or fixed.

Just rechecked the database, and it still lists "Camouflage" as the title. *shrug*

[dubbel zout]

Camryn Manheim was a sign language interpreter for a while; it's cool the show incorporated that. Fun fact: In an earlier appearance on OG L&O, she got to use ASL there, too.

I knew as soon as Price swore he'd keep the woman's identity confidential, he'd have to spill the beans/she'd get killed (on the courthouse steps, ha!)/both. Can't she testify behind a screen and with a voice distorter? Do they have to see her?

"I don't care about your word. I care about the verdict!" Heh. Take that, Price.

Nice to see Claire Coffee. I've always liked her.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Camryn Manheim was a sign language interpreter for a while; it's cool the show incorporated that. Fun fact: In an earlier appearance on OG L&O, she got to use ASL there, too.

When she played a defense attorney in season three, she used ASL then too, as her client was the first suspect, who was deaf. So nice to read that Dixon is familiar with signing.

I’m still not watching, though!

[dttruman]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

I knew as soon as Price swore he'd keep the woman's identity confidential, he'd have to spill the beans/she'd get killed (on the courthouse steps, ha!)/both. Can't she testify behind a screen and with a voice distorter? Do they have to see her?

i thought she would testify and then go into witness protection, as simple as that. What I don't understand is how can there be a clash of who prosecutes. If Federal jurisdiction has precedents then how can Price demand NYC gets to prosecute? What I don't get even more is why would the Feds let Price prosecute in the first place, if he is against the death penalty? Getting appointed (Price) as a federal prosecutors is really stretching it, if you ask me.

[storyskip]

15 hours ago, dttruman said:

i thought she would testify and then go into witness protection, as simple as that. What I don't understand is how can there be a clash of who prosecutes. If Federal jurisdiction has precedents then how can Price demand NYC gets to prosecute? What I don't get even more is why would the Feds let Price prosecute in the first place, if he is against the death penalty? Getting appointed (Price) as a federal prosecutors is really stretching it, if you ask me.

nvm

Edited October 7, 2022 by storyskip

[Jenniferbug]

12 minutes ago, storyskip said:

I'll park myself on the unpopular bench again; I thought it was a damn good episode. 

I will join you on your bench. I thought it was a good episode and had good moments for many of the characters- Dixon signing, Shaw checking in and empathizing with their tech person, Jack's talks with Nolan, Maroun talking through the case with Nolan, and I thought Nolan on the train with the jury was effective- he sounded like he was struggling to keep it together. 

[Door County Cherry]

23 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I knew as soon as Price swore he'd keep the woman's identity confidential, he'd have to spill the beans/she'd get killed (on the courthouse steps, ha!)/both. Can't she testify behind a screen and with a voice distorter? Do they have to see her?

The point was to evaluate the reliability of the witness.  To do that, the defense argued they had a right to know who it was.  And I guess they sufficiently destroyed her on the stand that her witness information was tossed.

And frankly, that angered me so much.  Because I found it all so nonsensical that the judge would agree to the defense's request to know who the confidential informant was.  

1)  The guy who threw the bag away had a picture of a girl in it.  They identified the girl.  She looked scared of the person which made the police believe she recognized him.  They would have eventually tracked down his identity even if they hadn't spoken up.

2) The dude confessed.  To cops.  

And in the end, it didn't matter because even though they got the weapons tossed, they switched to an insanity plea. So they made me mad for legal shenanigans that didn't mean a thing in the end.  And that the episode didn't need.

I half expected the ethical question to come down to Dixon being able to interpret sign and learning something that implicated the woman because she read sign even though the woman had asked for a lawyer.  

[dttruman]

32 minutes ago, storyskip said:

Simply speaking, Jack called in a huge favor.  That's what the whole scene at the restaurant with the woman was about. Also what -I suspect- he meant when he told Nolan later that Nolan asked for the case.  Nolan wanted the case, Jack went to the Feds, called in a marker (or offered a marker) and Nolan got the case. That's why Jack was so adamant that Nolan had to see it through.

I found this quite unbelievable and was only done to extend the narrative.

36 minutes ago, storyskip said:

Technically speaking Nolan shouldn't have been near that case. He was damn near an on scene witness himself, he was personally involved. But Law & Order likes to fudge those lines and if I wanted to watch real courtroom procedure I'd spool up a livestream of my local courthouse.

They really fudge this one up. I thought them taking the jury to the subway shooting area itself to make his summation was something the defense would object to as strenuously as possible.

[watcher1006]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

i thought she would testify and then go into witness protection, as simple as that. What I don't understand is how can there be a clash of who prosecutes. If Federal jurisdiction has precedents then how can Price demand NYC gets to prosecute? What I don't get even more is why would the Feds let Price prosecute in the first place, if he is against the death penalty? Getting appointed (Price) as a federal prosecutors is really stretching it, if you ask me.

I can't see a deal being made without a Federal attorney being attached to the prosecution as co-counsel, as a bare minimum requirement.

The judge's rulings early on about revealing the confidential informant's identity and tossing the gun evidence made me wonder if this was going to be a case of a biased judge (think Kyle Rittenhouse). I guess it didn't quite turn out that way but why did the defense decide to go with a mental illness/defect plea at the point that they did? If it was going to be so improbable to win a straight out not guilty verdict why go through all the motions?

[Clawdette]

I also really liked the episode.  I don't work in either the state or federal legal systems so I can't comment on the credibility of the sharing of the case and the assignment of lead counsel.  My niece is an assistant district attorney, however, and I do know that markers are given and taken.  Sometimes it's because someone really want to prosecute the case.  Other times they really don't want to prosecute it.

Both state and federal systems are overwhelmed with cases.  I can freely imagine that if the federal government had the opportunity to hand off a case to a state court along with the pledge to seek the federal desired result, they'd find it an appealing deal.

As is usual, the Law portion of the evening was stronger than the Order part.  Shaw and Cosgrove are settling into a grove and Dixon and her sign language were a nice touch.  I also liked that we had a real overlap between the two groups with Price's involvement in the crime.

[storyskip]

nvm

Edited October 7, 2022 by storyskip

[Raja]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Camryn Manheim was a sign language interpreter for a while; it's cool the show incorporated that. Fun fact: In an earlier appearance on OG L&O, she got to use ASL there, too.

I sat there telling myself that the mother had invoked her right to an attorney and  Lieutenant Dixon  eavesdropping on mother and daughter was going to drop a monkey wrench into the DA's case.

My question about Mechad Brooks possibly being unable to run from the previous episode  got answered as he was the go to action cop in this one

18 minutes ago, Clawdette said:

I also really liked the episode.  I don't work in either the state or federal legal systems so I can't comment on the credibility of the sharing of the case and the assignment of lead counsel.  My niece is an assistant district attorney, however, and I do know that markers are given and taken.  Sometimes it's because someone really want to prosecute the case.  Other times they really don't want to prosecute it.

Both state and federal systems are overwhelmed with cases.  I can freely imagine that if the federal government had the opportunity to hand off a case to a state court along with the pledge to seek the federal desired result, they'd find it an appealing deal.

As is usual, the Law portion of the evening was stronger than the Order part.  Shaw and Cosgrove are settling into a grove and Dixon and her sign language were a nice touch.  I also liked that we had a real overlap between the two groups with Price's involvement in the crime.

In this case that was impossible because the state of New York got rid of the death penalty again. Why the US Attorney would allow an ADA with a public anti death penalty stand to become a special AUSA for that case is odd. You would think another DA from New York County would have to take the case other than a witness of the aftermath/prosecutor.

[Xeliou66]

I was unsure about this episode at the start but I wound up liking it - I enjoyed the legal stuff quite a bit actually. I thought all of the legal stuff was well done - and I was glad the jury sentenced the shitbag mass murderer to death, this was one case that called for a death sentence, it was a mass murder fueled by hate and the killer was not insane. The attempt by the defense to have bigotry considered a mental disorder was reminiscent of the season 12 episode Prejudice, and I didn’t buy it then either. The killer carried out the crime with precision and knew exactly how to escape, as Jack said, he was lucid and he was a monster.

I was somewhat surprised that the defense changed strategies but I guess the defense attorney thought she could have a better shot of keeping her client off death row with psychiatric testimony.

I did wonder about why Price was prosecuting the case given that he was at the scene and had an emotional connection to it, but I guess since he wanted it badly Jack has enough juice to ensure he could try the case. Jack had a nice role in this one and it’s great seeing him used more, I liked his talks with Nolan and his meeting with the US Attorney at the restaurant. I thought Price’s closing was extremely effective. Maroun was good as well and seems to have more personality this season.

The police investigation wasn’t as in depth as normal, and I was puzzled by why they didn’t have more police at the park for the meet up between the guy buying the ammo from who they thought was the shooter. But Cosgrove and Shaw have gelled nicely, and I liked seeing Price interact with them, and Dixon knowing sign language was interesting.

I was very glad this episode didn’t end with witnesses getting killed by other white supremacists, that would’ve been overboard, especially after the last episode.

And the defense attorney can fuck off with her self-righteous attitude towards Nolan, he did his job and did it well and she just came off as whiny.

I liked this episode more and more as it went along, and I thought the legal stuff was particularly strong. Good episode.

[jcbrown]

I like the Law parts of the new iteration of this show but I feel like once it shifts to the attorneys there is a big record scratch and the show stops dead. This episode was no exception.

[Kemper]

I do like his show; and the “police” side is nicely finding it’s groove.  As soon as the action shifts to the lawyers it loses something. I don’t know why- is it the actors or the writing?  Maybe the headline-ripping style of the crimes. I still wish they would toss in a few episodes about old-fashioned murder. Stamps, coins, jealousy, infidelity, terrible relatives, etc. I am still loving the fact that the show is back.

[dttruman]

7 hours ago, Clawdette said:

As is usual, the Law portion of the evening was stronger than the Order part.  Shaw and Cosgrove are settling into a grove and Dixon and her sign language were a nice touch.  I also liked that we had a real overlap between the two groups with Price's involvement in the crime.

One commentator (storyskip) brought up a good point about Price's involvement in the crime as a possible witness. This should have excluded him from even being involved in the prosecution, right? Can you ask your niece that? My only experience comes from the Perry Mason School of Law.

[dttruman]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The police investigation wasn’t as in depth as normal, and I was puzzled by why they didn’t have more police at the park for the meet up between the guy buying the ammo from who they thought was the shooter. But Cosgrove and Shaw have gelled nicely, and I liked seeing Price interact with them, and Dixon knowing sign language was interesting.

I was very glad this episode didn’t end with witnesses getting killed by other white supremacists, that would’ve been overboard, especially after the last episode.

I thought they were being very superficial with the character of the shooter. If they would have made him more in depth the trial would have been much better. If the defense was going with the mental disorder, they should have had him testify to show how messed up he was. There white supremacist angle was lightweight also. All we heard him say were a couple of quick racist statements as he was being apprehended and that was it. With all the white supremacist scenarios we have seen on all the L & O outlets, they always make a definite speech or two.

[TakomaSnark]

I keep watching because I'm a L&O junkie but... this reboot continues to be terrible. OG Mothership had such good writing and 2.0 is just the worst version of a basic CBS procedural, complete with shitty acting, bad cinematography and constantly swelling music in lieu of organic plot development in the script.

I can think of so many great episodes from 20+ years ago dealing with racism and white supremacists, because the crime/investigations were so well done and they created indelible bad guys who stand the test of time. And victims/witnesses (Joe Seneca's ability to ID the bad guy in 'Profile' from 1993 still stands out as a top ten moment for me).

By the end of last night's episode, I couldn't tell you a damn thing about the shooter. I barely remembered what he looked like.

Also, in no universe would someone who was a witness to the hate crime and actually attended to victims in the aftermath be allowed to serve as prosecutor on the case.

Also, New York doesn't have the death penalty anymore, so they finagled some weird special 'AUSA' status for Hugh Dancy so he could pursue the federal death penalty, which was utterly laughable. They wanted an excuse to gin up drama over Price's background being against the death penalty and came up with this ham-fisted plot to do it. 

I did like that they incorporated Camryn Manheim's background as an ASL interpreter - she has seemed criminally underserved as Dixon - but that was really the only good, memorable thing.

Edited October 7, 2022 by TakomaSnark
Formatting

[shapeshifter]

I almost loved ol' L&O traditional end-of-opening-scene detective lines.

• [DETECTIVE COSGROVE] Where'd he go?
• [DETECTIVE SHAW] Back into the melting pot.

And then at the end of the next segment, again:

• [RACIST PERP] I'm doing you a favor. . . Send them back to China where they belong.
• . . . 
• [DETECTIVE COSGROVE AS DETECTIVE SHAW CUFFS PERP] And you're going to Rikers. Where you belong.

But these 42 minute episodes are not working for such complicated plots.

The writers are crackerjack at manipulating our emotions to fit the short running time, but to what end? [rhetorical question] 

Some of the most glaring problems with this episode:

4 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

in no universe would someone who was a witness to the hate crime and actually attended to victims in the aftermath be allowed to serve as prosecutor on the case.

and:
   although:

18 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Camryn Manheim was a sign language interpreter for a while; it's cool the show incorporated that. Fun fact: In an earlier appearance on OG L&O, she got to use ASL there, too.

  then:

16 hours ago, Raja said:

I sat there telling myself that the mother had invoked her right to an attorney and  Lieutenant Dixon  eavesdropping on mother and daughter was going to drop a monkey wrench into the DA's case.

and then:

17 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

so nonsensical that the judge would agree to the defense's request to know who the confidential informant was.  

1)  The guy who threw the bag away had a picture of a girl in it.  They identified the girl.  She looked scared of the person which made the police believe she recognized him.  They would have eventually tracked down his identity even if they hadn't spoken up.

2) The dude confessed.  To cops.  

Sheesh.

Edited October 7, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Diana Berry]

Maybe dancy’s character  questioning his beliefs opens up the possibility of another DA?  You know the whole I need to take another direction with my career. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, storyskip said:

The characters aren't characters on the Order side of things, they're vehicles for the writers' agenda.

And this is why I’m not watching-but especially @TakomaSnark hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Plus, original run hired actors from Broadway world who made the guest stars so memorable.

The only time I noticed agenda of Wolf’s, it was his hatred of the military-I could see it in the few episodes that featured murders or rapes (before we got SVU) of military personnel.

Then there’s the FACT that Rene Balcer is nowhere to be found in this…”revival” or any of the better writers.

2 minutes ago, Diana Berry said:

Maybe dancy’s character  questioning his beliefs opens up the possibility of another DA?  You know the whole I need to take another direction with my career. 

Except he’s not the DA-Jack is. Nolan is the executive assistant DA. Is this Claire Redux?

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, dttruman said:

I thought the title of this episode was Vicious Cycle. I got to get my TV guide button on my cable updated or fixed.

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Just rechecked the database, and it still lists "Camouflage" as the title. *shrug*

I'm seeing "Vicious Cycle" listed as episode 22.3 in a couple of places, but I guess it's going to be 22.5?
For instance, currently showing on 2 different (imdb.com/title/tt0098844 and imdb.com/title/tt22242118), linked pages of IMDb:

 

See Wikipedia:

And that same Wikipedia page shows the assigned production code numbers as being 2203 for "Camouflage" and 2205 for "Vicious Cycle," so I guess maybe there was some concern about showing a mass shooting event at this time like there was on FBI, but this show didn't get its ducks in a row in time for IMDb, TV Guide, et al.?

[TakomaSnark]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And this is why I’m not watching-but especially @TakomaSnark hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Plus, original run hired actors from Broadway world who made the guest stars so memorable.

The only time I noticed agenda of Wolf’s, it was his hatred of the military-I could see it in the few episodes that featured murders or rapes (before we got SVU) of military personnel.

Then there’s the FACT that Rene Balcer is nowhere to be found in this…”revival” or any of the better writers.

Except he’s not the DA-Jack is. Nolan is the executive assistant DA. Is this Claire Redux?

OG also used a lot of playwrights on the writing staff. They had a much better grasp on how to use dialogue to advance the story. 

Now, it's just talking points for whatever the hot issue of the day is that they want to highlight.

It is such a stain on the legacy of L&O to continue with this charade.

(Sorry but I am a L&O junkie and this reboot makes me mad.)

[storyskip]

Does anyone know of any other forums where people can go to talk about what they enjoy about a show? 

I know this forum absorbed a lot of the TWOP approach to discussion which, hey you do you, but I'm just wondering if there is somewhere folks can gather to talk about things they enjoy in an episode? Even little fun details, without feeling like we're out of step with the main focus of the rest of the forum population?

Pleasedon'tsaytumblrpleasedontsaytumblr.

[TakomaSnark]

2 minutes ago, storyskip said:

Does anyone know of any other forums where people can go to talk about what they enjoy about a show? 

I know this forum absorbed a lot of the TWOP approach to discussion which, hey you do you, but I'm just wondering if there is somewhere folks can gather to talk about things they enjoy in an episode? Even little fun details, without feeling like we're out of step with the main focus of the rest of the forum population?

Pleasedon'tsaytumblrpleasedontsaytumblr.

The subreddit for L&O?

[storyskip]

12 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

The subreddit for L&O?

Oh yeah, that's much better.

Okay guys, peace I'm out!

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, dttruman said:

I thought they were being very superficial with the character of the shooter. If they would have made him more in depth the trial would have been much better. If the defense was going with the mental disorder, they should have had him testify to show how messed up he was. There white supremacist angle was lightweight also. All we heard him say were a couple of quick racist statements as he was being apprehended and that was it. With all the white supremacist scenarios we have seen on all the L & O outlets, they always make a definite speech or two.

I was kind of glad they didn’t go overboard with the character of the shooter going on racist rants other than when he was apprehended, sometimes the franchise goes over the top with perps motivated by hate, I thought it was better having this guy sit quietly at trial rather than constantly go on hateful rants, I’m sure his attorney told him to shut the fuck up and behave. About him testifying I wondered about that as well, I thought the defense lawyer might put him on to show how hateful he was and try to portray him as sick, but I guess she thought he would turn the jury against him if they saw his hatefulness up close. 
And I was glad this didn’t turn out to be a network of white supremacists but just one bigoted scumbag, I was worried the episode would go in the direction of having the defendant’s sympathizers harass witnesses and stuff and I’m glad they didn’t go that route, that would’ve been over the top. Almost no one sympathizes with mass murdering scum. I thought the writing was actually good for the perp for the most part. 

[dubbel zout]

I thought it was pretty obvious the guy would be found guilty; whether he'd get the death penalty seemed the bigger issue. And to that end the show barely got into it, which was kind of odd. Yes, Price was personally against it, but it was hardly dealt with aside from some tsk-tsking by the defense lawyer in the elevator. So why make such a big deal about it in the first place?

This iteration of the mothership really confuses me sometimes.

[blackwing]

Yet another episode where there is absolutely zero mention of Kevin Bernard.  How about "hey Shaw, Bernard is on the toilet again, how about you work this case with me".  I'm assuming he left the force, but why no mention of it?  Are episodes being aired out of filming order?

I am glad they incorporated a storyline about Asian hate in NYC, after multiple incidents in recent months, including that beating where the apartment security guard ignored the woman getting beaten on the sidewalk and casually closed the door.

16 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

The point was to evaluate the reliability of the witness.  To do that, the defense argued they had a right to know who it was.  And I guess they sufficiently destroyed her on the stand that her witness information was tossed.

And frankly, that angered me so much.  Because I found it all so nonsensical that the judge would agree to the defense's request to know who the confidential informant was.  

1)  The guy who threw the bag away had a picture of a girl in it.  They identified the girl.  She looked scared of the person which made the police believe she recognized him.  They would have eventually tracked down his identity even if they hadn't spoken up.

2) The dude confessed.  To cops.  

And in the end, it didn't matter because even though they got the weapons tossed, they switched to an insanity plea. So they made me mad for legal shenanigans that didn't mean a thing in the end.  And that the episode didn't need.

I half expected the ethical question to come down to Dixon being able to interpret sign and learning something that implicated the woman because she read sign even though the woman had asked for a lawyer.  

I don't understand why the judge was so quick to agree with the defense on both the identity of the informant and the gun.  It seemed like he was committed to helping them when Price asked about the gun in the apartment and the judge says "ask another question".  I can't figure out what Price was doing improperly, he was trying to establish where the gun came from, and the witness had the knowledge.

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

And the defense attorney can fuck off with her self-righteous attitude towards Nolan, he did his job and did it well and she just came off as whiny.

Agreed, I get that this was written in the script, but I thought the actress was terrible.  Completely whiny and petulant.  She and Price went to law school together, "20 years ago".   The characters have to be at least 45, and it doesn't help that I thought she looked like she was 25, playing dress up in the courtroom.  It doesn't help that I thought of her as Poor Man's Reese Witherspoon.   So I was thinking she sounded like Elle Woods, trying to ridiculously defend her client, and the only difference was that there was a lot less pink.

[Riplet68]

I’m so glad they replaced the guy from “blackish”. I don’t like him and he was the reason I wasn’t going to watch show. Last night was first time I saw it had new guy, yay!! I thought that Camryn gives her lines rather boringly. Sam waterson was great, I like the girl DA, love both cops

[buckboard]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

And the defense attorney can fuck off with her self-righteous attitude towards Nolan, he did his job and did it well and she just came off as whiny.

I liked this episode more and more as it went along, and I thought the legal stuff was particularly strong. Good episode.

Both the defense attorney and the DA's office were just doing their jobs.  She had quite the nerve going off at him for doing what federal prosecutors are required to do.  While she is throwing in a plea for insanity to save her client, a white nationalist who murdered 7 innocent people is an example of putting personal feelings about her job? 
 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

This iteration of the mothership really confuses me sometimes

Yes. Confusing. I keep wondering if they cut an explanatory line for time.  

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, storyskip said:

Does anyone know of any other forums where people can go to talk about what they enjoy about a show? 

I know this forum absorbed a lot of the TWOP approach to discussion which, hey you do you, but I'm just wondering if there is somewhere folks can gather to talk about things they enjoy in an episode? Even little fun details, without feeling like we're out of step with the main focus of the rest of the forum population?

Pleasedon'tsaytumblrpleasedontsaytumblr.

Don't get us wrong, we are huge SVU fans and still are to a point, It's just that the show has really changed but we are still hooked. There used to be another forum we belonged to on IMdB, but it was almost all Olvia is so great here or so great there, she is such a warm and caring person. If you said something objective, but did not flatter Benson, you were considered a Hater. Bottom line, we would like to see episodes with the quality of seasons past.

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, buckboard said:

Both the defense attorney and the DA's office were just doing their jobs.  She had quite the nerve going off at him for doing what federal prosecutors are required to do.  While she is throwing in a plea for insanity to save her client, a white nationalist who murdered 7 innocent people is an example of putting personal feelings about her job? 
 

I think what the writers and producers were trying to get across was that Price was part of her world where Capital Punishment was wrong. He was betraying her and she was trying to make him feel guilty so he would be off his game. But I thought the premise of him prosecuting was weak anyway.

[Clawdette]

dttruman, my niece is of the opinion that Price prosecuting would be verboten in our neck of the woods.

I thought of something else I really like from the episode.  There was no outburst from the defendant at the trial, only glaring.  That's all we needed from him after seeing his initial tirade.

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, Clawdette said:

dttruman, my niece is of the opinion that Price prosecuting would be verboten in our neck of the woods.

I thought of something else I really like from the episode.  There was no outburst from the defendant at the trial, only glaring.  That's all we needed from him after seeing his initial tirade.

That's why I thought the defendant character had no real substance, very superficial

[shapeshifter]

56 minutes ago, dttruman said:

There was no outburst from the defendant at the trial, only glaring.

49 minutes ago, dttruman said:

That's why I thought the defendant character had no real substance, very superficial

The actor, director, and cinematographer gave us some excellent glaring, but it seemed inescapably obvious that the show did not have time to make his reactions realistic.

[WendyCR72]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

The actor, director, and cinematographer gave us some excellent glaring, but it seemed inescapably obvious that the show did not have time to make his reactions realistic.

See, I think the glaring versus outburst was more realistic. Rarely do you see a load of theatrics in a real courtroom. The shouting seems strictly made for TV.

I'm glad the show remembered the idea of less is more/restraint.

[CraftyHazel]

I’ll join the people on the bench who actually enjoy the show.  It’s not original L&O, for me, it’s a new show.  And it’s fine.  Not perfect, but original L&O wasn’t always perfect, either.

My biggest takeaway from this episode was that apparently uniformed police officers enter an active crime scene and stand around gaping.  The attorney takes off his tie and makes a tourniquet for a victim’s leg, while the cop in the background leans against a subway door observing the carnage.  Never saw a cop checking a pulse, assisting a victim, or doing anything really.  What was up with that?  Bad writing?  Bias?

[Zaffy]

I like the "Order" part, but the show looses me on the "Law" part.
One reason is that I cannot stand of Dancy, I think he is a mediocre actor and his voice/way he talks is extremely annoying.
But I think the main reason is the writing.
I know nothing about American law, but I wonder if someone who was a witness of a crime can be the DA in the trial  for the same crime.
As someone already mentioned, they had all the clues who their suspect was and they could do it without the CI.
I also found annoying how easy the judge decided to make the CI go public. I really do not get this. Couldn't they do that without her name being known to the public? Or let her testify only in front of the jurors? 
The defense lawyer also frustrated me. She cares about human life but didn't seem to care at all about the safety of the CI. Hypocrite.
And how on earth her cause against Death Penalty would get any sympathy from the public opinion? Does she goes and tries to free every mass shooter or/and serial killer?

It seems the writers try to shove a social issue in every damn episode. And the result is bad. The approach is juvenile and unbearable just poorly written.  

[dttruman]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The actor, director, and cinematographer gave us some excellent glaring, but it seemed inescapably obvious that the show did not have time to make his reactions realistic.

If he had said more, would he have been paid more?

[dttruman]

22 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

See, I think the glaring versus outburst was more realistic. Rarely do you see a load of theatrics in a real courtroom. The shouting seems strictly made for TV.

I'm glad the show remembered the idea of less is more/restraint.

Is this because of more influence from David Graziano or less from Hargitay?

[Xeliou66]

22 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

See, I think the glaring versus outburst was more realistic. Rarely do you see a load of theatrics in a real courtroom. The shouting seems strictly made for TV.

I'm glad the show remembered the idea of less is more/restraint.

Agreed. Courtroom outbursts don’t happen frequently, so I preferred how the perp just sat there glaring throughout the trial process instead of acting out and going on tirades. It made things more realistic I felt. I thought the situation with the perp was handled pretty well although his rant at Cosgrove and Shaw when apprehended was a bit over the top, and I thought it was interesting we didn’t see that brought up later when Price was trying to prove the defendant was motivated by hate (maybe he called Cosgrove/Shaw to testify about it offscreen and we just didn’t see it).
I liked the legal stuff better than the investigative stuff in this episode, the investigation was rather routine, although mass murderers are usually pretty dumb and don’t care much about getting caught so it was realistic that they tracked him down rather easily. But the legal stuff was compelling and it was a nice look at Price’s character, I feel like both Price and Maroun are coming in to their own more this season, and I may be in the minority but I like them both fine. 

1 minute ago, dttruman said:

Is this because of more influence from David Graziano or less from Hargitay?

Not sure what either of them have to do with the Mothership, Graziano and Hargitay are solely SVU. 

[dttruman]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

4 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Is this because of more influence from David Graziano or less from Hargitay?

Not sure what either of them have to do with the Mothership, Graziano and Hargitay are solely SVU. 

I did it again, getting my shows mixed up again! Sorry if I confused anyone else. Please forgive the mistake!

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I like the "Order" part, but the show looses me on the "Law" part.

Based on the rest of your post, you liked the Law portion. The Order portion focuses on the ADAs, defense attorneys and trial.