S22.E03: Camouflage

[shapeshifter]

59 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Based on the rest of your post, you liked the Law portion. The Order portion focuses on the ADAs, defense attorneys and trial.

Yes, that is the way the show defines it, but it always seemed backwards to me too.

[edhopper]

Defense attorney put the mother and daughter's lives at risk. Then she tried to get a mass murderer off. She has no moral high ground to question him.

Also, the informant did not say she saw the gun, she simply gave them a lead to his location, there were no grounds to exclude the gun, and no need to know here identity. 

And the guy basically confessed to the cops when arrested,  it shouldn't have been hard to convict.

[Zaffy]

17 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Based on the rest of your post, you liked the Law portion. The Order portion focuses on the ADAs, defense attorneys and trial.

Isn't Order the police and Law the DA?

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Zaffy said:

Isn't Order the police and Law the DA?

IRL, yes, IMO.
On the show, no.
The only way I keep it straight is:
the first part of the show is the cops, and the second part is the lawyers (for the most part),
and:
the first part of the show title is "Law," and the second part is "Order."

🤷🏻‍♀️ 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Zaffy said:

Isn't Order the police and Law the DA?

No.

The opening credits tells you what and who the Law portion is (the detectives) and when the Order flashes, you then see the actors portraying the ADAs and the DA.

[dttruman]

8 hours ago, Zaffy said:

Isn't Order the police and Law the DA?

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

the first part of the show is the cops, and the second part is the lawyers (for the most part),
and:
the first part of the show title is "Law," and the second part is "Order."

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The opening credits tells you what and who the Law portion is (the detectives) and when the Order flashes, you then see the actors portraying the ADAs and the DA.

I sent an email to Dick Wolf suggesting he change the name of the show from "Law & Order" to "Investigate & Prosecute". He said he would get back to me on that.

[NoReally]

On 10/8/2022 at 7:59 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

On 10/8/2022 at 5:05 PM, Zaffy said:

I like the "Order" part, but the show looses me on the "Law" part.

Based on the rest of your post, you liked the Law portion. The Order portion focuses on the ADAs, defense attorneys and trial

Yeah, I've never understood this. To my mind, the police keep Order in the streets, and the lawyers debate the Law in courtrooms. 

[ML89]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:38 PM, Door County Cherry said:

I half expected the ethical question to come down to Dixon being able to interpret sign and learning something that implicated the woman because she read sign even though the woman had asked for a lawyer.  

On 10/6/2022 at 11:33 PM, Raja said:

I sat there telling myself that the mother had invoked her right to an attorney and  Lieutenant Dixon  eavesdropping on mother and daughter was going to drop a monkey wrench into the DA's case.

I remember an ep with Lennie saying to Jack that they could just hit the button to eavesdrop on the conversation between the perp and the lawyer, so I was expecting the same thing.

On 10/7/2022 at 11:08 AM, TakomaSnark said:

(Joe Seneca's ability to ID the bad guy in 'Profile' from 1993 still stands out as a top ten moment for me).

This one had echoes of "Profile" - another white racist in a ball cap, with his guns in a duffel bag, and his family turning on him. And yes, I will always remember Seneca's performance, especially that moment on the witness stand. "Profile" is still one of the best L&Os for me, with some great character work and a tight plot.

I think the order side is beginning to gel, although it was helpful that it was really "follow the clues" instead of "let's put in conflict for conflict's sake." All those cameras made it so much easier than Mike and Lennie knocking on doors. The law side is still all over the place, but for me, this was the best of the new eps so far.  (although I was screaming for one of those uniforms or Hugh Dancy to CALL 911!)

[Joimiaroxeu]

I don't understand why Price would run to the shooting. He's not an EMT, cop, or firefighter. And he wasn't armed. He risked getting killed himself for no reason.

I didn't realize NYC had seemingly condoned homeless encampments. Not judging, it just seems unlikely to me given the weather in the winter.

Loved the way Price eyeballed the defense attorney after the verdict was read. Not sure he should've been proud though.

Quote

My question about Mechad Brooks possibly being unable to run from the previous episode  got answered as he was the go to action cop in this one

He's probably had time to get back in shape.

[Raja]

16 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

He's probably had time to get back in shape.

Brooks' has certainly jacked up from his younger days. It was sort of like Anthony Anderson being at his physical height during his original run as Detective Bernard.

[Linda956]

There were some things about the opening scenes of this episode that I feel compelled to mention.  I have lived in NYC all my life and ride the subways daily.  I am familiar with the Canal Street station used in the opening scenes.  There were several things wrong with it.  The lawyer finds out there is a shooter in the subway, hears the shots and yet runs into the subway station.  What person (especially a New Yorker) in their right mind does this?  There are 2 cops in the station. As I said, I ride the subways daily.  I can't even tell you the last time I saw a cop, let alone 2 in a station or on the train.  And what were those cops doing?  Nothing!  They stood there looking at the carnage and did nothing,  You never saw the cops on a walkie-talkie calling for help or even trying to help the wounded (until the lawyer started asking him for help).  Sadly, that was accurate, yet it shouldn't have been.  The cops didn't even have their guns drawn.  What if the shooter was still lurking on the subway platform?  Those cops couldn't even defend themselves.  Yes, the cop pulled out his gun when the lawyer entered the train, but it should have been out way before that.

[Raja]

41 minutes ago, Linda956 said:

There were some things about the opening scenes of this episode that I feel compelled to mention.  I have lived in NYC all my life and ride the subways daily.  I am familiar with the Canal Street station used in the opening scenes.  There were several things wrong with it.  The lawyer finds out there is a shooter in the subway, hears the shots and yet runs into the subway station.  What person (especially a New Yorker) in their right mind does this?  There are 2 cops in the station. As I said, I ride the subways daily.  I can't even tell you the last time I saw a cop, let alone 2 in a station or on the train.  And what were those cops doing?  Nothing!  They stood there looking at the carnage and did nothing,  You never saw the cops on a walkie-talkie calling for help or even trying to help the wounded (until the lawyer started asking him for help).  Sadly, that was accurate, yet it shouldn't have been.  The cops didn't even have their guns drawn.  What if the shooter was still lurking on the subway platform?  Those cops couldn't even defend themselves.  Yes, the cop pulled out his gun when the lawyer entered the train, but it should have been out way before that.

I was thinking that post the deputy and the Florida school and the entire police force in Ulvade Texas  why did the two cops stop and not move forward in the train to try to find and make contact with the shooter

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, Linda956 said:

lawyer finds out there is a shooter in the subway, hears the shots and yet runs into the subway station.

This was just weird. 
I can only guess they cut a few lines.

[andromeda331]

I really liked Camryn signing but thought she would get in trouble too for evasdropping while the woman and her daughter were with the lawyer. Nolan shouldn't have tried the case since was a witness. 

While the defense does have the right to know who told the police where to find him. It was unncessary since her client confessed. The judge was stupid for insisting on it but also for not insuring the witness safety. The father of her kid just committed mass murder they could easily become targets from angry people. Also her excuses for not going into witness protection weren't good enough either.  

The defense lawyer was a little crazy herself. I love how she upset with Nolan for no longer believing in the death penalty even though that's not what he said. Ah, your coming off a little fanatical about the death penalty even though your defending a mass murderer. What was with her 20 years ago you were against it. Ah, really? Your upset about something he said 20 years ago? People change. I really wish this part was better written. How much better would it have been if she said something like even though her client is dispicable she still believes it's wrong. Or Nolan thinking or discussing with someone like how seeing the dead in person right after it happen really made him waver and he never had before or something. They really could have made it more interesting but they didn't. 

I like the submission on the subway. What he said there was really good

[Kemper]

This was one of the best episodes so far; and I am grateful the major focus was on the policing side. That was more old-school L&O. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the “lawyer” side; it seems it is simply my personal preferences that keep me from warming up to the ADA and I wish I knew why. The actor (Hugh Dancy?)  is more in line with Michael Moriarty’s style, but for me he is missing the quiet outrage and controlled passion that actor did so very well. I do think the show is finding it’s groove. So yay.

[Kemper]

Sorry - I posted above but thought I was posting on last night’s show!

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Kemper said:

Sorry - I posted above but thought I was posting on last night’s show!

You can always edit and move it to this week's thread.

[Route66]

I will never understand why writers on a crime show don't know anything about firearms. 

Nelson was supposedly carrying around a gym bag with fifty boxes of 9m ammunition. Each box weighs almost a pound, so fifty boxes is around fifty pounds. Nobody planning on escaping a crime scene is going to bring an extra fifty pounds with him. 

[Samsnee]

This was so stupid. Why does the identity of the informant matter? There’s no reason for it and the legal rationale made zero sense. 

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, Samsnee said:

This was so stupid. Why does the identity of the informant matter? There’s no reason for it and the legal rationale made zero sense. 

I think the identity of the informant mattered because the police got their warrant based on the informant’s info, and the defense wanted to make sure the informant existed and was credible, because I know there have been a few real life cases where the police made up informants in order to get warrants. Plus it was a death penalty case so I think the judge wanted to make extra sure everything was done extremely by the book. I’m not a lawyer but I didn’t find it ridiculous that the defense wanted to know who the informant was.

[Door County Cherry]

31 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m not a lawyer but I didn’t find it ridiculous that the defense wanted to know who the informant was.

Except, the true connection wasn't because of the informant; it was because they connected the picture in the backpack to the girl.  And the woman identified who they thought it was.  But I'm thinking they would have inevitably gotten there once they looked into everyone related to her.  The informant saying it was the bio father just helped them skip a few steps.  

Second, the guy confessed when caught.  That too would given them inevitable discovery grounds. 

I can believe the defense might want to know.  I think it's a stretch that the judge agreed to it, especially since they went in with a good faith warrant. 

[Samsnee]

35 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think the identity of the informant mattered because the police got their warrant based on the informant’s info, and the defense wanted to make sure the informant existed and was credible, because I know there have been a few real life cases where the police made up informants in order to get warrants. Plus it was a death penalty case so I think the judge wanted to make extra sure everything was done extremely by the book. I’m not a lawyer but I didn’t find it ridiculous that the defense wanted to know who the informant was.

Fair enough 

[dttruman]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:41 AM, Route66 said:

I will never understand why writers on a crime show don't know anything about firearms. 

Nelson was supposedly carrying around a gym bag with fifty boxes of 9m ammunition. Each box weighs almost a pound, so fifty boxes is around fifty pounds. Nobody planning on escaping a crime scene is going to bring an extra fifty pounds with him. 

It's those little things of realism that they leave out that make an episode look so cheaply made. I and many others almost take it as a challenge to look out for instances where common sense is lacking or their use of their dramatic license is totally abused.

But Congrats to you for spotting this one! Many doctors, lawyers, and people of other professions have commented on certain scenarios and pointed out obvious and not so obvious inconsistencies.

[Route66]

5 hours ago, dttruman said:

It's those little things of realism that they leave out that make an episode look so cheaply made. I and many others almost take it as a challenge to look out for instances where common sense is lacking or their use of their dramatic license is totally abused.

But Congrats to you for spotting this one! Many doctors, lawyers, and people of other professions have commented on certain scenarios and pointed out obvious and not so obvious inconsistencies.

I'm a recreational pistol shooter. I can't count the number of mistakes this show has made. Probably the worst was the somewhat iconic "Gunshow" episode where the killer orders a gun shipped to him. Briscoe and Green track down the dealer who admits to having shipped a firearm directly to a customer, rather than sending it to a licensed dealer who would run a background check. Green tells the dealer he's going to lose his license and the dealer snorts that it's "barely a traffic ticket" which is untrue. It's a major violation and will absolutely result in a lost dealer license. It's something no gun dealer would do. 

[Samsnee]

The most unbelievable thing in all these episodes is that there are always working cameras and the images are super crisp and clear.  

[dttruman]

9 hours ago, Samsnee said:

The most unbelievable thing in all these episodes is that there are always working cameras and the images are super crisp and clear.  

9 hours ago, Samsnee said:

The most unbelievable thing in all these episodes is that there are always working cameras and the images are super crisp and clear.  

Except it still doesn't help the writing or production

[Cotypubby]

I’m just glad that Price didn’t actually bring the jury into the subway car, and it was just a narrative device to show what the jurors were feeling while he was really just using photos of the scene in the courtroom.

Because the idea that a blood-covered subway car would be left in the station for almost two months (thereby stopping all train service there) would probably be the dumbest writing error I have ever seen on this show.