S01.E07: Driftmark

[paigow]

4 hours ago, ursula said:

Tbf, Otto had no problem supporting Rhaenyra if it kept Daemon, someone he hated (and probably feared) out of power.

Otto: [Interior Monologue] Who should I support as heir? Who would be more likely to retain me as Hand? Who would be less likely to kill me when Viserys dies? 

[bunnyblue]

My favorite scene so far in the entire show was Aemond claiming Vhagar. Regardless of what I think of Aemond or what happened after with his cousins & nephews, watching that 10 year old kid tame the oldest, biggest, and grumpiest dragon alive had me smiling from ear to ear. I love that Vhagar was grumpy at first and then that she tested Aemond's mettle by trying to shake him off and taking him on a death defying ride. But the little twat held on and his laugh of joy and triumph was just pure kid. I loved it. And I may have gotten a bit misty eyed when Vhagar finally accepted Aemond, spread her wings and soared over the water as the music swelled (the same music that played when Dany first rode Drogon 😭).

All the adults suck, some more than others (looking at you, Alicent). It's sad that the toxicity between their mothers prevented Aemond & Jace from connecting in any way during the funeral; especially when they looked at each other over the fire pit. I think it does say something about the nature of the kids that Jace & Luke were able to form a bond with Baela & Rhaena, but none of Alicent's children can get along with either Daemon's or Rhaenyra's kids. Hell,  Aegon, Aemond, & Helaena don't seem to like each other either. A stark contrast to Jace & Luke and Baela & Rhaena, who show affection and concern for their siblings.

I'm surprised that Daemon didn't plan ahead and encourage Rhaena to claim Vhagar before the family returned to Westeros. But judging by his concerned look as he watched Aemond ride Vhagar, Daemon now realizes his tactical error in letting the dragon to get away. She has definitely balanced the scales by joining team Green. 

[paigow]

Did Aemond stumble into a trap? Maybe Daemon wanted to embed a double agent dragon...

[Meredith Quill]

If any posts which have spoiler tags remain in the thread it means the content therein is not actually a spoiler.

However, in an over-abundance of caution, our advice is to treat this situation as you would a preview trailer and not click tags if you don't watch trailers.

[ursula]

4 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I think it does say something about the nature of the kids that Jace & Luke were able to form a bond with Baela & Rhaena, but none of Alicent's children can get along with either Daemon's or Rhaenyra's kids. Hell,  Aegon, Aemond, & Helaena don't seem to like each other either. A stark contrast to Jace & Luke and Baela & Rhaena, who show affection and concern for their siblings.

Alicent was so determined to teach her children to hate and fear Rhaenyra's, that she didn't realize (or care) that she was teaching her children... to hate. 

[Meredith Quill]

10 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Hell,  Aegon, Aemond, & Helaena don't seem to like each other either.

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Alicent was so determined to teach her children to hate and fear Rhaenyra's, that she didn't realize (or care) that she was teaching her children... to hate. 

Quite so. Those siblings have shown no fondness for each other, let alone anyone else who isn't... them.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I'm surprised that Daemon didn't plan ahead and encourage Rhaena to claim Vhagar before the family returned to Westeros. 

That. 

This is not a modern society where children have time to grieve but a world where there is vicious struggle of power: if you don't act in time, others will. And who knows, maybe the best way to grieve for Rhaena would have been to claim mom's dragon and thereby be connected with mom for ever? 

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, ursula said:

Alicent's performative outrage over Rhaenyra's proposal is just that - performative. She would rather pursue her vendetta against Rhaenyra than take a peaceful option. This is a woman that would happily ally herself with murderers and kinslayers (if we're talking what people in Westeros find taboo, let's start with that). Her moral outrage is suspiciously selective.

Alicent had no reason to have "performative outrage" because the there was nobody else present. Also, so far she hadn't done any evil deed herself. Therefore, it's clear that her reaction was genuine.

As for taking "a peaceful option", why would she have believed it to be genuine from a person who had during ten years shown to be a liar and betrayer?

Instead of "happily" allying herself, she was in the trap. She couldn't announce the crime without being accused by giving the order or at least being conscious of the deed, especially as she benefitted of it when her father was promoted.  

Her options then were to keep silent - or punish the murderer herself by killing him, i.e. to become a murderer herself.

Only now the situation has changed. As her opponent is shown to be capable and willing not only lie and cheat but murder and marry a man who killed his first wife, she would be a fool to believe that she and her children could win, or even stay alive, if she couldn't use, or somebody else use for her, the same kind of methods. It's only now she had accepted the alliance but only out of necessity. 

In this show, I think it's useless to judge characters according to morality. What matters is evidently who is most greedy of power and without any scruples to use it. This episode shows that Rhaenyra has more those qualities but I hope Alicent will get them also, so the struggle of power will become more equal.     

[Roseanna]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:01 AM, magdalene said:

People always say "oh, but in the MA things just were that way, or but in Westeros things were that way.  Westeros is a fictional place written by a fantasy author who lives in the here and now, like I live in the here and now. 

If this is so, why is incest not only allowed as a Westeros' custom but presented glamorous in the show? Or why has somebody to be killed in each episode and senseless violence seems to be one of the chief reasons to the success of this show?      

Edited October 9, 2022 by Roseanna
clarifying meaning

[Constantinople]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:09 PM, Ottis said:

First, that's how easy it is to control a dragon? You walk up to it, shout a few words and hang on?

It's not as easy as it looks.

I say Dohaerās and Lykirī to my cat all the time and she just ignores me.

[MrWhyt]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If this is so, why is incest not only allowed as a Westeros' custom but presented glamorous in the show?

it's a Targaryen custom not a Westeros one. And where has it been presented as glamorous?

[magdalene]

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If this is so, why is incest not only allowed as a Westeros' custom but presented glamorous in the show? Or why has somebody to be killed in each episode and senseless violence seems to be one of the chief reasons to the success of this show?      

I don't think incest is portrayed as glamorous on the show.  I doubt anybody watches this going "oh my, I had no idea incest is this awesome!" For me personally, I enjoy Matt Smith doing his thing with his various scene partners, including his leading ladies. He happens to play a character from a family without an incest taboo.  So I put up with all the incest in this fictional show.  In real life I believe there to be good reasons why there is an incest taboo.

As to all the violence - it's the GOT universe.  And I don't believe the violence is the chief reason people are liking this show.

[FnkyChkn34]

So I turned on HBO early tonight and caught this episode right before the scene where Aemond "claims" Vhagar...  I've made my thoughts known, but I think I did notice something new - Vhagar isn't crying out in anguish, is she?  She's snoring.  At least it seems to me that she was sleeping.

[millennium]

Rhaenyra is giving me Peta Wilson vibes.

This episode was more exciting, but it required the threat of child mutilation to get there.

As the three dragons were flying above the castle I had to wonder, what happens when they poop?   It must be pretty large.  And heavy.   Are people below ever killed by falling scat?  At the very least it would take one heck of a squeegee to get that off the windshield.  

On 10/8/2022 at 4:41 PM, bunnyblue said:

'm surprised that Daemon didn't plan ahead and encourage Rhaena to claim Vhagar before the family returned to Westeros.

Or at least put a dragon alarm on the thing -- although everybody probably would have ignored it if went off.

Edited October 10, 2022 by millennium

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't think incest is portrayed as glamorous on the show.  I doubt anybody watches this going "oh my, I had no idea incest is this awesome!" For me personally, I enjoy Matt Smith doing his thing with his various scene partners, including his leading ladies. He happens to play a character from a family without an incest taboo.  So I put up with all the incest in this fictional show.  In real life I believe there to be good reasons why there is an incest taboo.

As to all the violence - it's the GOT universe.  And I don't believe the violence is the chief reason people are liking this show.

What I meant to ask was why it's only patriarchy that is regarded bad that must be opposed even if it can led to the civil war whereas incest and brutal violence as well as oppressive class system are just accepted as Westeros' customs? 

[SharonH58]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:02 PM, dramachick said:

"Power resides where men believe it resides." - Lord Varys

Ah Varys,  You got cheated.   And to whoever said about forensics, Ned would have figured out it wasn't Leanor (i am confused on all these names).  I am excited about Aemond as he is going to be played by one of my favorites from Last Kingdom.  Baby Monk!

[paigow]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

Or at least put a dragon alarm on the thing -- although everybody probably would have ignored it if went off.

[Starchild]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

As the three dragons were flying above the castle I had to wonder, what happens when they poop?   It must be pretty large.  And heavy.   Are people below ever killed by falling scat?  At the very least it would take one heck of a squeegee to get that off the windshield.  

Maybe they have anatomy like pigeons, where it's not possible to poop and fly at the same time.

[millennium]

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I didn't catch that it was Leanor in the boat at the end.  The whole plot was lost on me until I read it here.  In fact, I thought the guy rowing was some anonymous lackey who would kill Ser Qarl before he ever reached the ship, to prevent any potential loose lips from sinking it, so to speak.

As for the impostor body in the fire ... who was that?  The guard Qarl killed on the staircase?   Was he Black?  Whoever it was, wouldn't he have to be?

(I feel like that person at the movies nobody wants to sit next to)

[blackwing]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:42 PM, Constantinople said:

When Aegon said, "We know, Father. Everyone knows. Just look at them.", everyone reacted with stunned silence. No denials, no gasps. Eventually Viserys starts yelling but even he doesn't deny it.

It was obvious to me that the person who told Aegon the "vicious lie" was Alicent herself.  Viserys is an idiot, he created this situation, he's allowed his wife and queen to stew and resent Rhaenyra and her children for years.  Can't he see that it is patently obvious that the minute he dies, Rhaenyra and Alicent will go to civil war?

When Alicent demanded an eye, he should have been more forceful in stopping it immediately, instead of waiting until Rhaenyra was physically attacked.  Isn't it a crime to attack the Crown Princess?  Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne.  Alicent is Queen but she has no royal blood in her at all, and if she attacked the Crown Princess or the Crown Princess' heir, she should face the consequences.

It seems like Alicent is supposed to be this show's Cersei?  If so, they are failing.  I liked Cersei and her scheming, but I feel nothing but hate for Alicent.  And her twerpy sons.

[Affogato]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:59 PM, Starchild said:

Maybe they have anatomy like pigeons, where it's not possible to poop and fly at the same time.

I think they would use it to fuel the fire they breath. 

[jeansheridan]

Now the season is over, this is my favorite episode. The most balanced in terms of character screen time,  nuance, and action. 

[Ambrosefolly]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:41 PM, bunnyblue said:

I'm surprised that Daemon didn't plan ahead and encourage Rhaena to claim Vhagar before the family returned to Westeros. But judging by his concerned look as he watched Aemond ride Vhagar, Daemon now realizes his tactical error in letting the dragon to get away. She has definitely balanced the scales by joining team Green. 

On 10/9/2022 at 4:07 AM, Roseanna said:

That. 

This is not a modern society where children have time to grieve but a world where there is vicious struggle of power: if you don't act in time, others will. And who knows, maybe the best way to grieve for Rhaena would have been to claim mom's dragon and thereby be connected with mom for ever? 

For one thing, Daemon, was, ahem, busy with his niece. Another, despite sleeping with the niece, he was probably grieving Laena too and was off his game. He hadn't seen his brother and Otto in a long time and didn't know his new kids.  He had no idea how desperately Aemond wanted a dragon and didn't realize that Otto's opportunistic tendencies, no matter how bad the situation is, was passed down to his grandchildren. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Ambrosefolly

[Roseanna]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:41 PM, blackwing said:

It was obvious to me that the person who told Aegon the "vicious lie" was Alicent herself.  Viserys is an idiot, he created this situation, he's allowed his wife and queen to stew and resent Rhaenyra and her children for years.  Can't he see that it is patently obvious that the minute he dies, Rhaenyra and Alicent will go to civil war?

When Alicent demanded an eye, he should have been more forceful in stopping it immediately, instead of waiting until Rhaenyra was physically attacked.  Isn't it a crime to attack the Crown Princess?  Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne.  Alicent is Queen but she has no royal blood in her at all, and if she attacked the Crown Princess or the Crown Princess' heir, she should face the consequences.

Viserys created the situation in many ways: (a) he made Rahenyra an heir but after making lord to vow loyalty to her, did nothing to support her, (b) marrying Alicent or anybody else) and begetting sons and thus creating rival claimants to the throne (c)  by not refusing to admit, and thus react, when it was obvious that Rhaenyra's son weren't begotten by her husband.

Viserys though in harnony and chose not to do anything in the situation where he should have chosen either party (either Rhaenyra or Alicent's sons), support them strongly, punish the other party and destroy its power base in order to prevent the civil war. Never mind that they were his wife, daughter, sons and grandsons - the king must make hard choices. 

[Ambrosefolly]

I feel sorry for Daemon's girl, especially Rhaena. The commentary of the episode vs the episode. Rhaena & Baela weren't on a "side" until Aemond forced it. It seems that Daemon didn't speak much about Viserys and Rhanerya their whole lives, so they weren't part of the rivalry. Then their mother kills herself through dragon fire (where they saw the corpse) and are forced to interact with unknown family at one of their lowest points. Rhaena, who also wants a dragon, is shocked that someone would be so brash and more importantly, callous enough to claim the dragon their beloved mother proudly rode during the mom's funeral. I understand a dragon can't be stolen, but what a prick Aemond was to kids that never did a thing to him. Your mother dead! Maybe your cousins can get you a pig. It would suit you better. What the hell? Rhaena didn't take part in the pig prank and if she was there, probably wouldn't find it funny considering her own insecurities with being dragon-less. Cherry on top is her father's quicky marriage to Rhaenrya and being forced to move to Dragonstone. Aemond takes her mother's dragon away and her father moves her with his new wife. It was like Laena basically evaporated overnight.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Ambrosefolly

[proserpina65]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:46 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

Rhaena, who also wants a dragon, is shocked that someone would be so brash and more importantly, callous enough to claim the dragon their beloved mother proudly rode during the mom's funeral.

Aemond had one chance to claim Vhagar, at that funeral.  The dragon wasn't going back to King's Landing (who knows where Vhagar might've gone afterwards) so there's little likelihood that he and she would've been in the same place at the same time again.  If Rhaena wanted to claim Vhagar, she should've tried already.  Clearly she wasn't brash enough and probably wouldn't have succeeded for that very reason.

I agree, though, that she didn't deserve the pig remark, and the whole Daemon marrying Rhaenyra like five minutes afterwards was cruel.

[Ambrosefolly]

On 12/5/2022 at 11:52 AM, proserpina65 said:

Aemond had one chance to claim Vhagar, at that funeral.  The dragon wasn't going back to King's Landing (who knows where Vhagar might've gone afterwards) so there's little likelihood that he and she would've been in the same place at the same time again.  If Rhaena wanted to claim Vhagar, she should've tried already.  Clearly she wasn't brash enough and probably wouldn't have succeeded for that very reason.

I agree, though, that she didn't deserve the pig remark, and the whole Daemon marrying Rhaenyra like five minutes afterwards was cruel.

Or she was grieving. It was her mother, who seemed totally awesome. I did imply that no one owns a dragon, so Aemond was technically allowed to claim Vhager.  I prefer to blame Daemon for not being more attentive than a child.

 I worked with a bereavement group for years, so I get really protective in fictional universes when people who lost love ones are attacked, either online or in the shows. It isn't like Rhaena waited a long time. Her mother just died. 

[proserpina65]

17 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Or she was grieving. It was her mother, who seemed totally awesome. I did imply that no one owns a dragon, so Aemond was technically allowed to claim Vhager.  I prefer to blame Daemon for not being more attentive than a child.

 I worked with a bereavement group for years, so I get really protective in fictional universes when people who lost love ones are attacked, either online or in the shows. It isn't like Rhaena waited a long time. Her mother just died. 

Nothing Daemon could've done.

[Ambrosefolly]

5 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Nothing Daemon could've done.

Could have not slept with Rhanerya and encouraged Rhaena to claim Vhagar before the funeral. He is the adult. While I have defended him, and I stand by the defense, that is something he could have done to help Rhanea grieve her mother. 

Look at that, two things. 

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Could have not slept with Rhanerya and encouraged Rhaena to claim Vhagar before the funeral. He is the adult. While I have defended him, and I stand by the defense, that is something he could have done to help Rhanea grieve her mother. 

Look at that, two things. 

Okay, yes, those I agree with.  I don't think he could've stopped Aemond otherwise, but if he'd encouraged Rhaena to try before that, she might've been able to claim Vhagar first.

[Ambrosefolly]

3 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Okay, yes, those I agree with.  I don't think he could've stopped Aemond otherwise, but if he'd encouraged Rhaena to try before that, she might've been able to claim Vhagar first.

Again, I never entirely blamed Aemond for claiming Vhaegar. I pointed out his attitude afterwards towards a girl that never did a thing to him (up until she started the fight that lead to him losing the eye, after the pig comment) who had just lost her mother. 

[Affogato]

On 12/6/2022 at 1:58 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

Or she was grieving. It was her mother, who seemed totally awesome. I did imply that no one owns a dragon, so Aemond was technically allowed to claim Vhager.  I prefer to blame Daemon for not being more attentive than a child.

 I worked with a bereavement group for years, so I get really protective in fictional universes when people who lost love ones are attacked, either online or in the shows. It isn't like Rhaena waited a long time. Her mother just died. 

Right, absolutely right. But I think the point here is that this is an opportunistic game that favors the opportunistic, brash character. Daemon recovers and makes a game play, marrying his niece. You cannot blame the daughter for putting aside her ambitions in order to grieve the death of her mother, but it cost her. Perhaps Daemon could have been more attentive, shared the grief process, talked about feelings, but I don't know how that somehow transforms itself to 'and now, quick, grab that old dragon'. Because if you aren't the person who does that kind of thing, it is likely someone telling you to do it won't help. The failing would have been not raising her nearer the heart of the kingdom and training her for a cutthroat rule, and her parents probably thought they had time. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Affogato

[proserpina65]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:24 PM, Affogato said:

Right, absolutely right. But I think the point here is that this is an opportunistic game that favors the opportunistic, brash character. Daemon recovers and makes a game play, marrying his niece. You cannot blame the daughter for putting aside her ambitions in order to grieve the death of her mother, but it cost her. Perhaps Daemon could have been more attentive, shared the grief process, talked about feelings, but I don't know how that somehow transforms itself to 'and now, quick, grab that old dragon'. Because if you aren't the person who does that kind of thing, it is likely someone telling you to do it won't help. The failing would have been not raising her nearer the heart of the kingdom and training her for a cutthroat rule, and her parents probably thought they had time. 

There's no guarantee that Vhagar would've gone with them to Dragonstone or stayed at Driftmark.  She could've flown off to Essos after the funeral for all we really know.  She'd apparently been without a rider for a long time before Laena claimed her, so who knows what she was doing between then and the death of her previous rider.  Basically Rhaena's only real chance to claim the dragon was in the time between Laena's death and the funeral because she couldn't know if she'd still be in the proximity of Vhagar at all afterwards .  She didn't take it.  Understandably she was still mourning her mother's death, but it seems that with dragons, success favors the bold and Rhaena was not bold enough to take the opportunity while she had it.

[Ambrosefolly]

17 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

There's no guarantee that Vhagar would've gone with them to Dragonstone or stayed at Driftmark.  She could've flown off to Essos after the funeral for all we really know.  She'd apparently been without a rider for a long time before Laena claimed her, so who knows what she was doing between then and the death of her previous rider.  Basically Rhaena's only real chance to claim the dragon was in the time between Laena's death and the funeral because she couldn't know if she'd still be in the proximity of Vhagar at all afterwards .  She didn't take it.  Understandably she was still mourning her mother's death, but it seems that with dragons, success favors the bold and Rhaena was not bold enough to take the opportunity while she had it.

She was mourning her dead mother. All of this talk about HOTD being a brutal world so Rhaena needed boldness, stop attributing adult reasoning to a child. 

[proserpina65]

9 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

She was mourning her dead mother. All of this talk about HOTD being a brutal world so Rhaena needed boldness, stop attributing adult reasoning to a child. 

This is my final comment on this subject: I stand by my assertion that Rhaena needed boldness to claim Vhagar and she has done and said nothing to show that she has any.  Which, yes, is required precisely because the world of HOTD IS brutal.

[Fool to cry]

Rhaneyra's "Thank you father" definitely pushed Alicent over the edge. All that resentment building up for a decade and she finally snapped.

People unhappy with the characters being played by new actresses means they're doing a good job. On long running shows viewers usually get tired of characters played by the same actor by the 10th season!

[proserpina65]

On 3/5/2023 at 3:15 AM, Fool to cry said:

Rhaneyra's "Thank you father" definitely pushed Alicent over the edge. All that resentment building up for a decade and she finally snapped.

Yep, I think that's the point where she just couldn't suppress it anymore.

[millennium]

On 10/6/2022 at 7:02 PM, Oscirus said:

Laenors a piece of shit who contributed to this current situation more than anybody else but hes gone so I can only hold accountable those he left behind

I'm rewatching the season and I must concur -- Laenor is a shit.   He made an agreement with Rhaenyra that granted each of them wide latitude but Laenor failed time and again to hold up his end.   He couldn't be bothered even to simply be on hand when needed; instead he's off drinking, fucking and goofing off.   But for some reason the show saw fit to bestow upon him a heroic escape, complete with Rhaenyra assuring him that he's a good man with a good heart.   A good heart?   Check out Rhaenys' face when she learns of Laenor's "death."  Does someone with a good heart do that to their parents?  To their children?   And what about the rando who was slaughtered to fake Laenor's corpse?   Laenor was okay with that?   How does a couple being liberated to love freely outweigh all the moral and emotional harm inflicted in the name of that liberation? 

Another thing that occurs to me upon rewatch is how is it possible that Alicent, who, by all we saw, was a kind and gentle soul for all of her life preceding this episode, would have raised two grotesquely selfish and hateful children like Aegon and Aemond? 

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, millennium said:

would have raised two grotesquely selfish and hateful children like Aegon and Aemond? 

This description fits Aegon to a T, but not Aemond.  Up until he lost an eye, he was the victim of bullying by his brother AND his nephews, so I completely understand his being hateful towards Jace and Luke.  Was it right, no, but absolutely understandable.  And there was nothing selfish about his behavior.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

This description fits Aegon to a T, but not Aemond.  Up until he lost an eye, he was the victim of bullying by his brother AND his nephews, so I completely understand his being hateful towards Jace and Luke.  Was it right, no, but absolutely understandable.  And there was nothing selfish about his behavior.

I would contend that many people are bullied as children (including yours truly) but do not become hateful as a result.   I think hatefulness is in one's nature, perhaps dormant until forced to the surface, but there nonetheless.   And when one allows it to drive one's actions, it is a choice, one that can never be justified regardless of past negative experiences.  

 

[proserpina65]

On 9/6/2023 at 3:56 PM, millennium said:

I would contend that many people are bullied as children (including yours truly) but do not become hateful as a result.   I think hatefulness is in one's nature, perhaps dormant until forced to the surface, but there nonetheless.   And when one allows it to drive one's actions, it is a choice, one that can never be justified regardless of past negative experiences.  

 

I didn't say all children who were bullied become hateful or that Aemond did solely because of the bullying.  In fact I literally said it wasn't right, only that it was understandable.