S01.E04: The Great Wave

[paulvdb]

Episode Synopsis:

Queen Regent Míriel’s faith is tested; Isildur finds himself at a crossroads; Elrond uncovers a secret; Arondir is given an ultimatum; Theo disobeys Bronwyn.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books or stories.

[Anduin]

I didn't think they'd show Numenor's fate that early! I thought it would be a surprise!

Bronwyn mentioned Orodruin AKA Mount Doom. That suggests they're actually within Mordor. Given the name Tir Harad, I figured they'd be just outside, on the south side. Anyway, if I were in that position, I might just surrender to Adar. Gondor hasn't been founded yet. For all she or Arondir knows, there's no help closer than Lindon, 2,000 miles away. Help is on the way, but they don't know it yet.

So Halbrand's advice paid off. Galadriel managed to get Miriel and the navy coming. Again, so soon! Some people have said the show is a bit slow. Me, I'm finding it quite fast. I wouldn't mind if it slowed down. That was one of my problems with For All Mankind. Too much story for the run time, giving us abbreviated looks at things we could have dwelled on.

Finally, Elrond/Durin/Durin Sr. That was the highlight of the episode by far. Those two scenes really got me a little misty of the eye. Well done to everyone involved.

[Harvey]

I like Pharazon. Even though he had an ignoble end, this WAS the man who would go on to defeat the forces of Sauron in battle and lead him back to Numenor in chains.

Yes, Sauron did go along with it because he had a plan B in mind to corrupt Numenor from within, but he didn't intend to lose his plan A. Pharazon, while a flawed man, was also a great one. And I'm loving that we're seeing that he is in fact a very savvy and wise ruler when it comes to reading the will of his people.

[Anduin]

We've had several mentions of Eärendil, this ep being the biggest. I can't help wondering if he'll turn up at some point.

[cambridgeguy]

The people of Numenor are kind of fickle, aren't they?  If you hate the elves then why are you volunteering to go to war based on her word alone?  The more likely reaction is to believe she bewitched Miriel and should either be executed or tossed in the dungeon forever.

Was that Narsil sitting in the tower?  Or just a sword with a similar hilt?

So Halbrand was able to influence Pharazon immediately.  A red herring that's he's Sauron? I don't think the timeline works out since he still needs to teach Celebrimbor about rings before convincing Pharazon to sail west, but who knows how much they'll fiddle with the timeline.

Edited September 16, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[Aulty]

This is the first episode that made me bemoan the weekly release schedule. Thats a good thing, the story telling is finally getting somewhere.
I find it a bit odd that the last episode was titled 'Adar' when we really really didn't get much beyond the orcs chanting the name and only met him this week. I did enjoy that small glimpse of orc culture.

I still think some of the dialogues in Numenor are a bit too ... modern? I do like Arondir, Ismael did a good job there. Didn't miss the Harfoots this week but I think they might become more interesting once their story gets merged with the others'. The scene between Durin the elder and Durin the younger was the opposite of what I expected. Love Disa.

That scene between Theo and the old guy has me on tenterhooks now.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Aulty

[Haleth]

One thing is for sure, the Dwarves are the best.  I love love Disa.

I'm confused.  We see Galadriel on a boat (sit down, for goodness sake!) heading to the ship that will take her to ME.  Then we see her emerge to stand with Miriel.  Was there a scene in between that we didn't see where Miriel changes her mind and calls Galadriel back to shore (because the tree was losing blossoms)?  Maybe Galadriel jumped off this ship too.  It's becoming a habit, girl.

Adar = the Mouth of Sauron?  (Wasn't he a human?)

Could Halbrand be Sauron?  Handsome. ✔️  In prison. ✔️ Charms Pharazon?  Maybe.  (But the Numenoreans knew who they had imprisoned, so maybe not Sauron.)  The crazy cult Sothroner seems to think the Stranger is Sauron, or at least a sign of his coming.  This will be interesting.

Speaking of signs, so Miriel already knows Numenor's fate.  That looked terrifying.

Stupid Theo (with the Greek name).  Now that you know what the eeeevil knife/sword is maybe you should give it to someone not a teenager?  Uh oh, it hadn't occurred to me that these Sotheroners were already in preMordor Mordor.  Makes sense with all the Orcs tunneling underneath it.

Loved the shout outs to the books - Earendil, Orodrin, etc.

[Constantinople]

You should not speak of matters you do not understand, Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin - Míriel to Galadriel

I get that in the books that characters are sometimes referred to as X child of Z, but it still sounds goofy to me.

Would there have been any confusion to whom Míriel was speaking if she had just said Galadriel?

Was there another Galadriel in the room?

Did Míriel need to distinguish between Galadriel daughter of Finarfin and Galadriel daughter of Julie?

[Good Queen Jane]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

You should not speak of matters you do not understand, Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin - Míriel to Galadriel

I look at it as a stern rebuke, like when your mother addresses you by all your names. "John Joseph Doe, come here now." You know you're on thin ice.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Good Queen Jane

[Haleth]

Galadriel Finarfinsdottir doesn’t fit on her drivers license. 

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The people of Numenor are kind of fickle, aren't they?  If you hate the elves then why are you volunteering to go to war based on her word alone?  The more likely reaction is to believe she bewitched Miriel and should either be executed or tossed in the dungeon forever.

Did you not see the rain of falling petals from the White Tree?  The only clearer omen would have been for the Valar to appear in the sky over Numenor as a choir singing "Oy!  Morons!  Get your arses on those ships and help the rude pointy-eared lady.  Now!!!"

[Anduin]

So Elrond is going to break his oath. The question is when. Why do I think this is? Sorrow for his family line. And certainly his life will have high points, but it's mostly a long decline. Consider what happened to Celebrian. And he has a ring, but it only helps his small area. Then it stops working entirely. Arwen chooses to stay behind when he sails west, and then she chose to die after Aragorn passes away. But what about their children?

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see under what circumstances he breaks his oath. Will he accidentally let slip? Will it be tortured out of him? But he survived the end of the oath of Feanor, he should know better than to make oaths like that to start with.

[QuantumMechanic]

I wonder if Adar is supposed to be the quasi-Jango Fett of the Orcs.

So is Miriel’s force the thing that will defeat Sauron and take him back to Numenor in chains?

And will Pharazon stay home and (undoubtedly) work to supplant Miriel or will he be going along for the fight?

(In the books, Pharazon was king (by usurpation) and led the force that went to Middle-earth.)

Like several others I didn’t miss the Harfoots AT ALL and the episode was better for it.

I think the scenes with Elrond, Durin, and Disa are far and away the best in the series so far.

[Rushmoras]

So, the mithril that the dwarves are digging... is this a prelude to what happens in Moraia?

[cambridgeguy]

15 hours ago, Anduin said:

So Elrond is going to break his oath. The question is when.

One of the three elven rings (Galadriel's) is made of mithril, so it won't be too long before mithril's existence gets out there. 

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So, the mithril that the dwarves are digging... is this a prelude to what happens in Moraia?

I’m guessing we’ll see the balrog. 

[QuantumMechanic]

5 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So, the mithril that the dwarves are digging... is this a prelude to what happens in Moraia?

Presumably, since they are in Moria right now. And we have all the foreshadowing about the digging being dangerous.

[quarks]

So, like everyone else, I thought the hands down best part of this episode was everything to do with the dwarves - even if, also like everyone else, I am kinda blinking at a) Elrond deciding to investigate his friend based on a hint from Celebrimbor, and b) just how quickly that tower was getting built. I guess the dwarves really are skilled builders!  

But regardless of plot/timeline questions, I loved the bit where the dwarves were singing to the stones to save the miners, and the conversations between Elrond and Durin. I especially loved that Elrond felt close enough to Durin to explain his very mixed feelings about his father.

That was harsh enough even without the context that, yes, the Elves generally do have the hope of meeting "dead" loved ones at some point,  either in the halls of Mandos, or through reincarnation. Except for Earendil, who is permanently separated from Elros, and probably permanently separated from Elrond.  With that context, well - a lot going on there, explaining just why this friendship is so important to Elrond, and why he's willing to make an oath that is almost certainly going to end up going very very very badly at some point in the next five seasons.

I did twitch a little when Elrond urged Durin to try to make amends with a father who is coming across as borderline abusive, but, well, Elrond clearly has his own regrets, and also clearly realized that Durin needed to at least try. And, hey, it sorta worked out and showed us that the dwarves are having some of the same doubts about this whole tower thing that I'm having.

Also, may I take this early moment to express my sincere sympathies to that Balrog who was just having a nice nap and is now having to deal with a lot of banging and singing. I get you, Balrog. I get you. I'm not saying that you should have harbored that anger for several centuries more, mind you, but I get you.

Meanwhile, in the other plots - 

1. I think I needed more between Galadriel and Miriel.  I mean, I'm sorta buying it - that tree started shedding blossoms very conveniently and I would have been freaked out too - but I'm not 100% buying it.  The tsunami bit was pretty effective, though.

2. I also think I needed a bit more information about just how many Faithful GO ELVES GO are around, because that crowd jumped into the "Yes, let's take a long voyage across the sea to save those Southern people even though the only one we've seen recently just beat some of us up." I mean, I get that in the case of Isildur's friends, this was a solid chance to get back on a ship and pursue their dreams, and lots of white blossoms were flying around, but I didn't find it 100% convincing.

3. And on the palantri - I'm kinda surprised that the Queen only seems to have one of them. Is Elendil hiding the other six?

4. I'm pretty sure that Adar's "Hey, go deliver a message to those human scum," did not include "and slaughter some orcs along the way," Alondir! Stay focused!

5. My general dislike of Theo grows in each episode. Kid, when and if you drop screaming to your death as a burning Nazgul at the end of the Third Age, take comfort in knowing this is all on you.

(I don't actually know that Theo is going to become a Nazgul, to be clear, but of everyone we've seen so far he does seem to be the most likely candidate. Not that his friend is particularly awesome either. Maybe they will both end up as Nazgul.)

6. Were all of those mentions of Earendil meant to suggest that Meteor Guy could be Earendil, or at least that Elrond will assume he is? Bit odd since Elrond specifically stated that Earendil is on the Evening/Morning Star, not a random meteor, but the multiple mentions seemed kinda meaningful. Or I'm reading way too much into them.

7. Kinda loving that we now have at least two, maybe three possible Saurons running around - Adar, Halbrand (I'm not at all convinced, but I can see the argument), and (possibly) whatever is hissing in that sword. Yet none of them have weirdly huge cat eyes. HMM.

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So, the mithril that the dwarves are digging... is this a prelude to what happens in Moraia?

No. I’m fairly sure it is exactly happening in Moria. Dig too deep (for mithril, it was).  Wake ancient terror. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Affogato

[Affogato]

33 minutes ago, quarks said:

Also, may I take this early moment to express my sincere sympathies to that Balrog who was just having a nice nap 

5. My general dislike of Theo grows in each episode. Kid, when and if you drop screaming to your death as a burning Nazgul at the end of the Third Age, take comfort in knowing this is all on you.

(I don't actually know that Theo is going to become a Nazgul, to be clear, but of everyone we've seen so far he does seem to be the most likely candidate. Not that his friend is particularly awesome either. Maybe they will both end up as Nazgul.)

You would think going under a mountain to nap would be safe. Quiet. But no…

weren't the Nazgul all kings? So Theo will be a king?

[Haleth]

Maybe Theo becomes The Mouth. He can’t remember his name because it’s Greek and not appropriate for this culture.  (Sorry. This annoys me more than any racial diversity.)

[cambridgeguy]

24 minutes ago, Affogato said:

No. I’m fairly sure it is exactly happening in Moria. Dig too deep (for mithril, it was).  Wake ancient terror. 

And then wait two thousand years until it actually busts out, since that doesn't happen until well into the Third Age.  Although I suppose they could modify that for the show.

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

And then wait two thousand years until it actually busts out, since that doesn't happen until well into the Third Age.  Although I suppose they could modify that for the show.

There are warnings, signs, but greed makes them ignore the signs. Like, oh, climate change. 

[JustHereForFood]

This series is making me want to read Simarilion and the rest of books about the history of Middle Earth. I'm sure I would get bored quickly, same as when I tried to read LOTR a second time, but I have so many questions about the timeline. 

So, Numenor gets drowned. I think I remember some mention of it from LOTR books (it's been almost 20 years since I've read them). Do all those people die, or do they move to the continent? Rohan and Gondor are not yet formed, right?

Those Southlanders are where Mordor will be? So these are the people who will join him? Will it be some self-fulfilling thing? - the Elves are acting like they are all inherently evil because their ancestors joined this Morgoth fellow, so will they just eventually get pissed at how they're treated and decide to be evil, or will they be somehow magically brainwashed? I wouldn't be happy to join orcs in their shoes, after they destroyed my village. BTW, it's a bit hard for me to watch those disgusting orcs now and I never had this problem before. Real world parallels are strong right now.

One more question about Sauron. Galadriel already mentioned fighting him and it seemed like the Elves believed he was dead and she was the only person not convinced, at least that is how I understand it. Yet, this is supposed to be before all of the Rings are created, so he still needs to form some alliance with Elves, Dwarves and Humans (is that capital or small H?) and create his own Ring, before trying to conquer all, right? Does that mean there are two periods when everyone thinks he is gone and he's still somehow alive? And judging by all the speculation, he's still supposed to be a normal human at this point?

As for the episode, I really like the friendship between Elrond and Durin. I already liked the Elf-Dwarf friendship between Legolas and Gimli in LOTR, with how everyone acted surprised because they are supposed to hate or at least dislike each other. I'm already dreading what will probably happen to break this one friendship.

I dislike stubborn people being stubborn on principle and female characters being bitchy towards each other, so I was pleasantly surprised at the end with Miriel and Galadriel finding some common ground, I was beginning to get pissed at both of them, even though I understand both perspectives. 

I like Elendil's actor and his voice.

[Haleth]

Ooooh, I have a theory!  Benjen Stark is called Adar because it was his genetic material that was cloned to make the Orcs.

[Anduin]

40 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Ooooh, I have a theory!  Benjen Stark is called Adar because it was his genetic material that was cloned to make the Orcs.

Interesting. A theory I read, Adar is in fact Maeglin. Who was thrown off a tower into fire. I suppose it's possible, depending exactly on the Silmarillion rights.

My own theory, the Stranger is Eärendil. Eärendil has been talked about a lot, and was last seen in the sky. Where the Stranger fell from. But surely Elrond would notice if Venus went missing.

[QuantumMechanic]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

No. I’m fairly sure it is exactly happening in Moria. Dig too deep (for mithril, it was).  Wake ancient terror. 

It is.  They said it was the "lost mine beneath the Mirrormere".  The Mirrormere is the lake below the East Gate of Moria/Khazad-Dum.

13 minutes ago, Anduin said:

My own theory, the Stranger is Eärendil. Eärendil has been talked about a lot, and was last seen in the sky. Where the Stranger fell from. But surely Elrond would notice if Venus went missing.

Well, the show is playing fast and loose with canon, so who knows, but the lord of the Valar  (Manwe) specifically said that Earendil would never be allowed to walk in the "Outer Lands" (i.e. anything other than Valinor or the sky) ever again.

[QuantumMechanic]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

You would think going under a mountain to nap would be safe. Quiet. But no…

weren't the Nazgul all kings? So Theo will be a king?

The Nazgul were "mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old".  Sounds about the polar opposite of Theo.  And at least some of them were Numenorean lords.

[QuantumMechanic]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

This series is making me want to read Simarilion and the rest of books about the history of Middle Earth. I'm sure I would get bored quickly, same as when I tried to read LOTR a second time, but I have so many questions about the timeline. 

So, Numenor gets drowned. I think I remember some mention of it from LOTR books (it's been almost 20 years since I've read them). Do all those people die, or do they move to the continent? Rohan and Gondor are not yet formed, right?

Yes, it gets mentioned, perhaps even as explicitly as "drowned Numenor".  I also think it's mentioned how Elendil brought the "seven stones and one white tree" out of the wreck of Numenor in the main text of LoTR.  And the RotK appendices certainly say Numenor was destroyed by Eru Illuvatar.

And yes, everyone dies except some of the Faithful.  Elendil starts moving the Faithful onto his fleet, anchored off the eastern shore of Numenor before the destruction and so when it happens they are able to (barely) get away.  Everyone else dies.  Including Miriel. (Pharazon and the Numenorean army die separately in Valinor (it is their invasion that's the final straw and causes Illuvatar (i.e. God) to destroy Numenor).

Gondor (and Arnor, the lost-by-the-time-of-LotR northern kingdom) were founded by Elendil and the Faithful when they arrived on the shores of Middle-earth after the drowning of Numenor.

Quote

One more question about Sauron. Galadriel already mentioned fighting him and it seemed like the Elves believed he was dead and she was the only person not convinced, at least that is how I understand it. Yet, this is supposed to be before all of the Rings are created, so he still needs to form some alliance with Elves, Dwarves and Humans (is that capital or small H?) and create his own Ring, before trying to conquer all, right? Does that mean there are two periods when everyone thinks he is gone and he's still somehow alive? And judging by all the speculation, he's still supposed to be a normal human at this point?

Here's the "real" timeline: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline/Second_Age
So you can see how much they are crunching things down.  We must be somewhere around S.A. 3240 given that Elendil and Isildur are there and given the age of Isildur.  In the books the One Ring had already been in existence for 1,640 years at this point.

And it's not so much that he's a "normal human".  He is and always will be an angel (a Maiar), though fallen, of course.  However, he could take a "fair form" and look like who he wanted to.  He permanently lost that ability when his physical form was killed in the destruction of Numenor (he was brought to Numenor as a prisoner after a vast Numenorean force landing in Middle-earth caused Sauron's army to literally turn tail and abandon him.  Of course, that suited Sauron's plans just fine.  Though he never expected Illuvatar would actually destroy Numenor.)

[quarks]

4 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

One more question about Sauron. Galadriel already mentioned fighting him and it seemed like the Elves believed he was dead and she was the only person not convinced, at least that is how I understand it. Yet, this is supposed to be before all of the Rings are created, so he still needs to form some alliance with Elves, Dwarves and Humans (is that capital or small H?) and create his own Ring, before trying to conquer all, right? Does that mean there are two periods when everyone thinks he is gone and he's still somehow alive? And judging by all the speculation, he's still supposed to be a normal human at this point?

Minor things to add to what Quantum Mechanic said above, since some of this has been referenced in the show:

Tolkien usually used Elves, Dwarves, and Men, capitalized, when talking about specific races. Not humans, capitalized or uncapitalized. But in a text written well after The Lord of the Rings was published he said he regretted using the word "Elf" at all. The later writings avoid that word, and instead go with something like "Eldar" or "Quendi" or "Avari." Or sometimes more specifically, "Vanyar," (not in this show, although Galadriel and Elrond are descended from them), "Noldor" (this includes Galadriel, Gil-galad, Celebrimbor, and....technically Elrond), "Teleri," (not in this show - yet) "Sindar" (again, technically sorta Elrond but this hasn't really come up on this show, and also a character that Amazon says will be appearing in season two), and "Silvan" (Arondir and the other elves in the Southland). Tolkien also discusses other groups of elves - but not in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, so I don't think they can or will get mentioned on this show.

Most of the differences have to do with where they are or where living, and what languages they use. The Vanyar are still in Valinor, and speak Quenya. The Noldor are kinda split between Valinor, Tol Eressea and Middle-Earth, and speak Quenya and Sindarin. The Teleri are in Tol Eressea, an island very close to Valinor, and speak their own version of Quenya. The Sindar started heading towards Tol Eressea, but never quite got there, and speak Sindarin.  The Silvan were like, yeah, we're good, and stayed in Middle-Earth; at the time depicted in the show, they are all speaking Sindarin. 

To go back to the humans, Tolkien also used the word Edain - used in this episode - for a fairly specific group of humans, who are descended from people who fought against Morgoth. Most - not all - of the Edain are on Numenor, something referenced in this episode. The show hasn't gotten into this yet, but as the extended edition of The Lord of the Rings mentioned, the people of Numenor live longer than other humans do. 

As Quantum Mechanic noted, Sauron is not a normal human. But he can look like one - and he speaks all of the languages I listed above, plus the various human languages.

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Well, the show is playing fast and loose with canon, so who knows, but the lord of the Valar  (Manwe) specifically said that Earendil would never be allowed to walk in the "Outer Lands" (i.e. anything other than Valinor or the sky) ever again.

I have no memory of that. But the Gateway backs you up. Ah well, further proof of my lack of predictive skills. :)

[Haleth]

But that doesn't mean that it is necessarily wrong.  Earendil was name dropped twice and the show runners have their own story mapped out.  There is wide speculation that the Stranger is Olorin and that wouldn't be technically correct according to The Books either.

[Affogato]

I admit to being puzzled. Why not give rights to the silmarillion?  Waiting for a movie deal? And why film it without the rights. It is so very convoluted. It is a fake history and while real history also gets fi tiinal treatment, why bother with this?  What is the actual purpose of the show, if not to tell this story? I find this confusing. 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I admit to being puzzled. Why not give rights to the silmarillion?  Waiting for a movie deal? And why film it without the rights. It is so very convoluted. It is a fake history and while real history also gets fi tiinal treatment, why bother with this?  What is the actual purpose of the show, if not to tell this story? I find this confusing. 

Tolkien ran into some tax trouble back in the day. He had to sell the screen rights to the Hobbit and LOTR. It's these rights that have been passed around the place. Christopher Tolkien didn't sell anything else. This show was in production before he passed. However, I gather the estate is a little more open to these things. Some more rights were sold to the Embracer Group last month.

If you care at all, here's an article on the whole rights thing.

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Tolkien ran into some tax trouble back in the day. He had to sell the screen rights to the Hobbit and LOTR. It's these rights that have been passed around the place. Christopher Tolkien didn't sell anything else. This show was in production before he passed. However, I gather the estate is a little more open to these things. Some more rights were sold to the Embracer Group last month.

If you care at all, here's an article on the whole rights thing.

Thanks. I’ll read it. 

[quarks]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

You would think going under a mountain to nap would be safe. Quiet. But no…

weren't the Nazgul all kings? So Theo will be a king?

I sincerely hope that Theo will not be a king.

He probably won't be a Nazgul, either. But if we're all lucky - ok, if I'm lucky - that sword will eat him.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I admit to being puzzled. Why not give rights to the silmarillion?  Waiting for a movie deal? And why film it without the rights. It is so very convoluted. It is a fake history and while real history also gets fi tiinal treatment, why bother with this?  What is the actual purpose of the show, if not to tell this story? I find this confusing. 

The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and The Histories of Middle-Earth weren't published until after Tolkien's death, so Tolkien's heirs have the rights to them for several more decades. For everyone saying, "Oh, Amazon could have just thrown more money out for those rights --" Until this year, and possibly even now, that wouldn't have worked. The family members were already well off thanks to the books, and Tolkien's kids were primarily interested in preserving his legacy - which in their view, meant not handing any other properties to evil Hollywood companies who would just produce terrible films anyway.  Tolkien's last child lived until February of this year - well after this season finished filming.

In terms of why make this show despite this - well, industry speculation at the time was that Amazon wanted to take over the streaming market, and/or drive WB/New Line/HBO out of business, but needed something big to do so. Whatever can or can't be said about the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit films, they made a lot of money, so this project came with a built in audience - something that would certainly be attractive to Amazon.

[silverstream]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:53 AM, Anduin said:

So Elrond is going to break his oath. The question is when. Why do I think this is? Sorrow for his family line. And certainly his life will have high points, but it's mostly a long decline. Consider what happened to Celebrian. And he has a ring, but it only helps his small area. Then it stops working entirely. Arwen chooses to stay behind when he sails west, and then she chose to die after Aragorn passes away. But what about their children?

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see under what circumstances he breaks his oath. Will he accidentally let slip? Will it be tortured out of him? But he survived the end of the oath of Feanor, he should know better than to make oaths like that to start with.

I agree that we're probably going to see Elrond break his oath - I hope it's not going to be an accidental slip, but something more along the lines of him having to decide whether to break his oath for the greater good, maybe in a situation where the revelation that mithril exists could save lives/turn the tides of the war etc. That could make for good character conflict.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I sincerely hope that Theo will not be a king.

He probably won't be a Nazgul, either. But if we're all lucky - ok, if I'm lucky - that sword will eat him.

The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and The Histories of Middle-Earth weren't published until after Tolkien's death, so Tolkien's heirs have the rights to them for several more decades. For everyone saying, "Oh, Amazon could have just thrown more money out for those rights --" Until this year, and possibly even now, that wouldn't have worked. The family members were already well off thanks to the books, and Tolkien's kids were primarily interested in preserving his legacy - which in their view, meant not handing any other properties to evil Hollywood companies who would just produce terrible films anyway.  Tolkien's last child lived until February of this year - well after this season finished filming.

In terms of why make this show despite this - well, industry speculation at the time was that Amazon wanted to take over the streaming market, and/or drive WB/New Line/HBO out of business, but needed something big to do so. Whatever can or can't be said about the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit films, they made a lot of money, so this project came with a built in audience - something that would certainly be attractive to Amazon.

Jane Espenson wrote an essay, I think on her blog a while ago (over a decade, now) about the 'chosen one' and how the hugely popular media stores feature 'the chosen one'--Buffy, Harry, and Frodo were mentioned. It occurs to me that The song of ice and fire is a chosen one story, although it plays outrageously with the trope and it isn't clear, yet, who the chosen one is in the story. (look at the response, in the show, to Daenerys, for goodness sake. Mess with the audience's chosen chosen-one at your peril). The Lord of the Rings is a chosen one story.

Neither 'the house of the dragon' or 'the rings of power' are chosen one stories. They aren't going to spark the same magic. In addition the people who are really drawn in by the original stories, they know what happens. More or less.

Did anyone else notice that the entrance to Moria is the same as the one in the movies? Allowing for foliage, time, and magic moon locks. I think, right? I'm haven't seen the movie since the first run theater, but pretty sure?

Edited September 18, 2022 by Affogato

[Good Queen Jane]

I am of the opinion that “Theo” is a shortening of “Theoden” and look for him to end up in Rohan.

[quarks]

5 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Jane Espenson wrote an essay, I think on her blog a while ago (over a decade, now) about the 'chosen one' and how the hugely popular media stores feature 'the chosen one'--Buffy, Harry, and Frodo were mentioned. It occurs to me that The song of ice and fire is a chosen one story, although it plays outrageously with the trope and it isn't clear, yet, who the chosen one is in the story. (look at the response, in the show, to Daenerys, for goodness sake. Mess with the audience's chosen chosen-one at your peril). The Lord of the Rings is a chosen one story.

Neither 'the house of the dragon' or 'the rings of power' are chosen one stories. They aren't going to spark the same magic. In addition the people who are really drawn in by the original stories, they know what happens. More or less.

I haven't gotten around to watching The House of the Dragon yet, but I think that The Rings of Power might end up becoming a chosen one story. At least three characters appear to be heading towards that role - Nori, Arondir, and Elrond.  Possibly Halbrand and Galadriel as well. The show has made a point of noting that Nori, Arondir and Elrond are all somehow different from their peers and to a certain extent outsiders, and made a point of showing how they, again unlike their peers, are willing to befriend people outside their immediate culture. On top of that, Nori just happened to be the first person to encounter Meteor Man (a Chosen One trope); Elrond just happens to have a magical heritage that he is struggling with emotionally; and Arondir just happens to be in a Forbidden Romance. And they are all mostly being written as sympathetic heroes. Even Elrond's spying on his friend in this episode and following him to the Secret Mithril Place got turned into a positive.

It's possible that Halbrand and Galadriel will end up as Chosen Ones as well, and the show also seems to be playing with the concept with Isildur (who is getting those magical, Chosen One visions of Tol Eressea and Valinor) as well as showing some of the negative aftereffects as Elrond discusses what it's been like to be the son of a Chosen One, Earendil.

1 hour ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I am of the opinion that “Theo” is a shortening of “Theoden” and look for him to end up in Rohan.

My deepest sympathies to everyone in Rohan. 

[MJ Frog]

5 minutes ago, quarks said:

Even Elrond's spying on his friend in this episode and following him to the Secret Mithril Place got turned into a positive.

BOY did that make me uncomfortable. Disa was far more patient with his nosiness than he deserved. Which, come to think of it, was kind of a giveaway that there was indeed something to hide.

[Raachel2008]

On 9/17/2022 at 7:15 PM, quarks said:

2. I also think I needed a bit more information about just how many Faithful GO ELVES GO are around, because that crowd jumped into the "Yes, let's take a long voyage across the sea to save those Southern people even though the only one we've seen recently just beat some of us up." I mean, I get that in the case of Isildur's friends, this was a solid chance to get back on a ship and pursue their dreams, and lots of white blossoms were flying around, but I didn't find it 100% convincing.

This. I don't mind folks joing the 'let's save Middle Earth' bandwagon, but we were not shown why they would do that. That speech about 'the elves are going to take your/our jobs' was as stupid as it gets; we have yet to see any elf doing any real ordinary work (I know they do) and that is not what shouldn't scare humans, but the fact that elves can live very very very long lives and outlast any of them. It would haver worked better for me if in that scene the words were something like 'the elves may come and take our island, our lands, our shores, our buildings, blah blah blah' and then others would have pointed 'she is a castaway, she doesn't want to be here, elves don't want to be here or they would have come ages ago'. And while at that, they could - and should - have shown how people really really really belive in profecies/stuff like leaves falling from an ancient tree.

I really like the show and I'm okay with some cannon divergence. However, I cannot with the lazyness.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Raachel2008

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

This. I don't mind folks joing the 'let's save Middle Earth' bandwagon, but we were not shown why they would do that. That speech about 'the elves are going to take your/our jobs' was as stupid as it gets; we have yet to see any elf doing any real ordinary work (I know they do) and that is not what shouldn't scare humans, but the fact that elves can live very very very long lives and outlast any of them. It would haver worked better for me if in that scene the words were something like 'the elves may come and take our island, our lands, our shores, our buildings, blah blah blah' and then others would have pointed 'she is a castaway, she doesn't want to be here, elves don't want to be here or they would have come ages ago'. And while at that, they could - and should - have shown how people really really really belive in profecies/stuff like leaves falling from an ancient tree.

I really like the show and I'm okay with some cannon divergence. However, I cannot with the lazyness.

What else would you want regarding the White Tree?  We were flatly told about it earlier and the petals falling was them paying that off.  And the stupid was blathering about elves taking their jobs because he was stupid.  That was the point of him - being a stupid guy that was stirring up a riot that Pharazod calmed and dispersed with his own speech.

[QuantumMechanic]

And you could see Pharazon make eye contact with “our jobs!!” dude and give a nod. Totally a plant.

[Grimnar]

I think that writing/storytelling is main issue for this show. First half of the season is gone and the story still needs to pick up pace so we don't end with first half which is "snooze" and second which will be "rushed". Most characters are not writen very well(at least for me). They are either annoying and/or unlikable(Galadriel, Theo, ...) or I have to create some connection with them because so far they are not very interesting(Elrond, Gil-Galad, ...). So far only Durin, Dis and Nori are likeable or interesting for me.

Also I feel like we are missing some scenes. I would like to see how orcs captured Arondir's friends, how Celembrimbor negotiated with dwarves(maybe promised one of the seven rings), etc. On other hand some writing is very contrived - Numenor has information about Morgoth's backup plan, Arondir is freed with weapons so he can save Theo, Númenor's support didn't feel earned, elves didn't notice that orcs are destroying villages in Southland, Elrond is spying on Durin because Celebrimbor complained that dwarves have secret(I hope that fate of Celebrían and Arwen isn't beacuse Elrond broke his promise to Durin), etc.

Regarding Númenor I was afraid that compressed timeline will hurt their story and I think it is the case. We will not see that Numenor started their fall before Sauron was captured. It seems that they live in isolation from rest of the world so there isn't how they changed they behaviour in Middle-earth where they went from explorers/teachers to opressing people in Middle-earth. Also it seems that they dislike of elves is not from jealousy but from being afraid of "loosing job".

[Anduin]

If there's one thing missing so far, it's a sense of time passing. Tolkien was big on the passage of time. Working out how long it took to travel somewhere, the weather, the phase of the moon. It's been a few weeks since the Stranger crash-landed, but how many is a few? Celebrimbor wants the tower built by spring, but how many weeks away is that? I'd like a little more detail in future. and maybe we get to actually see a few moments from journeys, rather than people just teleporting from place to place.

Now a couple of details I noticed. Isildur's black-haired friend is called Valandil. There's been two others. One a Numenorean lord and ancestor of Isildur, the other Isildur's son and a king of Arnor. Good use of the name.

Second, I only noticed this in a screencap. But the mark on Theo's arm, it looked like an incomplete eye of Sauron. Not the flaming one from the movies, the classic red eye on black. I'm sure it's coincidence. :)

[Anduin]

Oh, and the word girlfriend really sounds too modern. Any etymologists out there who know when it first appeared? Is it like the name Jason, really old but somehow sounds new?

[PeterPirate]

10 hours ago, Grimnar said:

Regarding Númenor I was afraid that compressed timeline will hurt their story and I think it is the case. We will not see that Numenor started their fall before Sauron was captured. It seems that they live in isolation from rest of the world so there isn't how they changed they behaviour in Middle-earth where they went from explorers/teachers to opressing people in Middle-earth. Also it seems that they dislike of elves is not from jealousy but from being afraid of "loosing job".

This.  Even the Tolkien Professor acknowledged the inconsistency between Numenor having a sailing fleet and there being no evidence of contact with Middle Earth. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Affogato]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:32 PM, quarks said:

I haven't gotten around to watching The House of the Dragon yet, but I think that The Rings of Power might end up becoming a chosen one story. At least three characters appear to be heading towards that role - Nori, Arondir, and Elrond.  Possibly Halbrand and Galadriel as well. The show has made a point of noting that Nori, Arondir and Elrond are all somehow different from their peers and to a certain extent outsiders, and made a point of showing how they, again unlike their peers, are willing to befriend people outside their immediate culture. On top of that, Nori just happened to be the first person to encounter Meteor Man (a Chosen One trope); Elrond just happens to have a magical heritage that he is struggling with emotionally; and Arondir just happens to be in a Forbidden Romance. And they are all mostly being written as sympathetic heroes. Even Elrond's spying on his friend in this episode and following him to the Secret Mithril Place got turned into a positive.

It's possible that Halbrand and Galadriel will end up as Chosen Ones as well, and the show also seems to be playing with the concept with Isildur (who is getting those magical, Chosen One visions of Tol Eressea and Valinor) as well as showing some of the negative aftereffects as Elrond discusses what it's been like to be the son of a Chosen One, Earendil.

My deepest sympathies to everyone in Rohan. 

Thought for a minute and Tolkien honestly averts the chosen one trope over and over. Frodo, big chosen one, fails horribly. Survives because plodding, loving Samwise picks him up and carries him home. The ring is destroyed by an addict, too far gone in his need to watch where he is stepping. Many people in Tolkien's works drip with excess destiny, but LOTR, anyway, wasn't a story about that (or, rather, it was, but in a backhanded way). It will be interesting if they find anyone relatable, who also has a destiny. Durin is a good start, I think and Durin may make Elrond likeable.