Current Plots Discussion II: Discussing Today's Episode and Current Storylines

[Pearson80]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:56 PM, DaphneCat said:

Yup, plain old soapy fun.  Interpersonal drama, someone using a plain old drug, someone lying, someone scheming.  Don't need supernatural or back from the dead.  And since I'm waving my magic wand, I REALLY want people to get over someone.  Jan Spears still obsessed over Shaun after 20 plus years (or is it 30 plus now?) this Meagan person obsessed with Bo from what 40 years ago?   I liked the Jan Spears actor but don't really want her to come back because we really don't need version 394 of the exact. same. plot.  We ALL know the interloper will never win, so why not have them move on?

Ron did the same thing with Anjelica and Diana. I never believed that  Anjelica would still be in love with Justin after all of these years.  Her bone of contention with Adrienne should have been over Alex preferring Adrienne over her. 

Ron's character assassination of Diana was vile.  Diana would still care about John but she would not be obsessed with him and try to hurt Marlena over him.  Ron does not know how to write women who don't center men as the reason for their existence in life.  

[CanaryFan98]

14 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Me too. I think the current MM is exactly what I'd imagine the only biological child of Jarlena to be. Stephano, Orpheus, Roman, Kristen, Sami, and the literal Devil could not stop that epic romance. I imagine the child of such an epic once-in-a-lifetime couple to be quite entitled. How could she not be?

I think one problem with Belle is that the men she clicked with, except JKJ's Philip, were destined for someone else. I think Abby was "dead" when Chad/Belle first started sharing scenes, but we the audience knew Abby was alive and going to eventually be reunited with Chad. EJ is obviously still on hold for Sami. Of the men on canvas, Stefan is for Gabi, and Xavier- who I can't imagine her liking - is for Sarah. The other men, like Alex or Tripp, don't seem age appropriate. I'm also not certain who Shawn could be paired with, but I don't think the show cares about him outside of cop and his friendship with Chloe and barking at Philip who isn't currently on canvas.

 I wonder if the show would invest in a Belle/Chad/Stephanie triangle. Also, I think another complication is that MM/Belle lives in Texas, so they probably have to film around her availability. 

No Chad was brainwashed by Andre into going after Belle. Abby was very much around she even barged in on them almost having sex and stopped it( I remember finding it odd she acted like she didn't know Belle considering she was married to Shawn at the time) 

Actually, I think the show should've revisited Chad/Belle instead of going the EJ/Belle route which let's face it wasn't going to be something the show would ever fully pursue. I thought the actors had chemistry and would beat whatever story both Chad and Belle are in at the moment.

13 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

Oh my goodness, someone made a writing error on a message board, I'll call the firing squad.

Nicole/Eric are obviously still endgame. The show just did a tribute to the two last week, and E.J. has a decade-long history of only wanting Nicole when he can't have Sami. While the two discussed last week whether Nicole sees E.J. as an Eric replacement, they didn't discuss whether Nicole is a Sami replacement. Sami has been a much bigger factor in the Ejole relationship than Eric has been. AS/Sami not coming back full-time has not stopped this show from writing storylines around her schedule. The recent Sami/Lucas storyline shows that.

Li is obviously an obstacle for Stabi. The show is constantly having people, like Nicole this week or Brady last week, or even Chloe last week, talk about their great love. Gabi isn't even pretending to be torn between the two. Obviously, anything can change in the writing, but the show is pretty committed to Stabi right now.

Sarah is pregnant with Xander's child. The two are not done with each other yet.

Anything can happen, but the show isn't even dangling the possibility of Belle becoming involved with any of these men.

I wonder why the show didn't recast BB's Shawn a long time ago. I can't remember the show ever having much interest in him, and when Bo died a few years ago, the show brought back Jason Cook. I think he's okay, but I think the problem with BB's Shawn is with the lack of characterization and how the show positions him and not with BB himself.

I think they only brought back JC's Shawn because of PR's Bo beyond that they probably weren't planning on him being around long term.

[CanaryFan98]

14 hours ago, norcalgal said:

It’s just crazy to me that the show would rather write for Belle while ignoring the child of a SuperCouple! For me, I never thought of Jarlena as a SuperCouple because of John’s crazy and multi retcon background (he’s Roman, no he’s Forrest, no he’s blah blah blah). 
Also, I watched during the SuperCouple heyday of the’80s so maybe that’s why I feel Bope are more deserving of the SuperCouple tag. 

He's a Horton male I'm not surprised I mean its rather disappointing for the reasons you described. This is why I wish they didn't make Jan a complete psycho I think she has more chemistry with BB"s Shawn than MM's Belle does. Plus she would actually be devoted to him.

[Nique]

On 3/6/2023 at 7:12 PM, CanaryFan98 said:

I'm pretty much content with EJ in any pairing that doesn't involve Sami.  However yes Shelle should divorce amicably regardless that pairing is DOA. Should've stayed as first love nothing more.

Shelle hasn't worked and don't work outside of JC/KS I don't know why they don't realize that. Shelle never had the greatest writing but their chemistry overcame it.

[Nique]

16 hours ago, CanaryFan98 said:

KS's Belle was a teen so it didn't bother me as much not sure if I could picture her version as an adult. I at least bought her version loved Shawn which is something I can't say with MM's version.

I don't with MM's. I think the character would fare better if she was allowed to move on from Shawn for good as the actress has chemistry with every other guy but Shawn.

Like teenagers are immature I don't know one that wasn't. She wasn't immature all the time. MM Belle isn't the epitome of maturity either Carrie she isn't.

She wasn't when she married a man she didn't love cause she couldn't have the one she did. When she strung Shawn & BlockheadPhil (While playing house)along for over a yr cause she liked the attention. Then only wanted Shawn when he moved on to Mimi. Trying to Blocking Sami from seeing their dying mother. Tried to buy Claire's love with a club. 2 yrs whining and crying about Phil/Shawn. Months of Whining to EJ about being a weak woman instead of dealing with her marriage.

Belle weak as hell she let some psycho bitch run her out of her home and spent months whining about it. I be damn if I let someone run me out of my house.

[boes]

UO, but I love Martha Madison's Belle unlike how I loathed KS's interpretation of Belle. I agree that she and Shawn are sorta lackluster but that's on BB.  He's gotten better over the years but still......

It was refreshing to see her call Eric out on his bullshit and actually make him pay a price for being such a dick to her husband, and to her.  Sami gets called out regularly, most of the time, justly so, but Eric squeaks by with everyone because of, what exactly?  Not being Sami?

Humorless, judgmental, Fadda Eric has pretty much always fallen short of who he is supposed to be but pretty much always gets a pass.  I'm hoping that this time, Sloan is pulling a fast one and gives him a lasting taste of his own medicine.

 

[norcalgal]

16 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

It's such a change in character for Eric - he seems to accept Sloan for who she is - including ALL her faults.  With Nicole, he was constantly holding her to some standard she could never reach - he never accepted her at all.  They're both better characters away from each other.

For the same reason I prefer EJ and Nicole together.  They are clear about who the other person is and don't try to change the other. Further, neither EJ nor Nicole feel like they aren't "good enough" to deserve the other. Both are free to be their true selves.

[rcc]

I was always a fan of the great love story that is/was Nicole and Eric. But not anymore. Today killed it. Let Nicole and EJ  be together. Eric can have the wicked (according to Paulina) Sloan. The show has given Paulina an office I see.

[peachmangosteen]

7 minutes ago, rcc said:

The show has given Paulina an office I see.

I figured it's just the Dimera office redressed. 

Another good episode. They are firing on all cylinders right now.

[CanaryFan98]

5 hours ago, Nique said:

Like teenagers are immature I don't know one that wasn't. She wasn't immature all the time. MM Belle isn't the epitome of maturity either Carrie she isn't.

She wasn't when she married a man she didn't love cause she couldn't have the one she did. When she strung Shawn & BlockheadPhil (While playing house)along for over a yr cause she liked the attention. Then only wanted Shawn when he moved on to Mimi. Trying to Blocking Sami from seeing their dying mother. Tried to buy Claire's love with a club. 2 yrs whining and crying about Phil/Shawn. Months of Whining to EJ about being a weak woman instead of dealing with her marriage.

Belle weak as hell she let some psycho bitch run her out of her home and spent months whining about it. I be damn if I let someone run me out of my house.

Actually Belle is more like Abby than Carrie based on this description. Although even Abby had more of a backbone tbh. 

[SouthernChick]

Nicole is a busybody. She needs to leave Sloan and Eric alone. 

[Nique]

2 hours ago, CanaryFan98 said:

Actually Belle is more like Abby than Carrie based on this description. Although even Abby had more of a backbone tbh. 

True

[SouthernChick]

1 hour ago, Elio Kukui said:

Right?!  She has E.J. now!  She should be focusing on him!

Exactly. She upgraded big time, but she always wants what she can’t have.

[Artsda]

Gabi had an out and instead she's going to whore herself for some stock. 

Johnny is always really quick to choose everyone else over his father. 

I like this new bad Eric he's so much more interesting. 

[tribeca]

Wendy is very smart.  Although Johnny and Wendy should try to find private places to talk.  
 

Edited March 9, 2023 by tribeca

[brisbydog]

I don't care how many characters say Sloane is trash and unethical, I still am firmly in her corner against Paulina 

And for the love of everything Abe STOP CHUCKLING 

[Frozendiva]

Nicole, let Sloan and Eric run their course. Don’t you get that it is more satisfying to watch? EJ is rich, he accepts you as-is, he seems kind to you and Holly. Eric is just more of the same whiny, pompous, judgmental jerk and you will only get more of the same.

Sloan, it is more than likely that your dad was not a saint and most likely a predator hiding behind academia to prey on young, naive first year students. Chanel wasn’t the first. Your mother probably knew all about his affairs every year. Her death was an accident. Paulina is annoying.

So we meet the new baker to be? You do have to fill out an application.

If Stefan was smart, and on to EJ, he would offer him the clean drink, knowing he would do the switcheroo.

Wendy is clever and Johnny maybe needs to not be as hard on his father and actually listen to him. Li, go to the Van Gogh exhibit. Enjoy the summer of discontent with Gabi.

[DaphneCat]

1 hour ago, Frozendiva said:

Li, go to the Van Gogh exhibit. Enjoy the summer of discontent with Gabi.

I really think Gabi is setting him up.  She's MUCH too compliant.  

[methodwriter85]

2 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

I really think Gabi is setting him up.  She's MUCH too compliant.  

I feel like she's going to goad him into hitting her and then claiming domestic violence. That feels like something that would have happened on Melrose Place, and that's basically the type of character that Gabi feels like.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Artsda said:

Gabi had an out and instead she's going to whore herself for some stock. 

And she only did it because her supposed one true love told her to, which is kinda sad. I wish she would have decided to continue on her own. I still enjoy the hell outta this story though so I don't really care lol. I hate the spec that she'll try to goad him into hitting her though. Li is literally the greatest character currently and you better not ruin him for me, Ron!

[CanaryFan98]

12 hours ago, Artsda said:

Gabi had an out and instead she's going to whore herself for some stock. 

Johnny is always really quick to choose everyone else over his father. 

I like this new bad Eric he's so much more interesting. 

This is a large part of what keeps me from taking Gabi seriously. There's no depth or growth to her whatsoever. 

[4evaQuez]

8 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I feel like she's going to goad him into hitting her and then claiming domestic violence. That feels like something that would have happened on Melrose Place, and that's basically the type of character that Gabi feels like.

I've been saying this about Gabi for months. She often feels out of place in Salem.

51 minutes ago, Elio Kukui said:

Really?  Bella magazine is named after Isabella?  When was Alex working on it?

This was months ago, but when he, Nicole, and Eric were working together was for Bella Magazine, I believe.

I was more shocked Alex knew and cared who Isabella was since they often act like he has no idea who Ciara is. I know the Ciara thing is supposed to be a wink, wink, and nudge, nudge joke, but I was still kinda surprised he mentioned Isabella. 

It was odd seeing Xander and Alex in the same scene as I always wished Xander was Alex instead of the made-up character he is.

I don't know how I feel about Talia. There's something about the actress' voice I find irritating. I felt the same about the Stephanie actress when she first arrived. I'm hoping she isn't slated for a Chanel romance, but there's really no one else on canvas I would want her with either. I think I liked the brief scene with Jada as sisters. She seems like she could be a bit of a troublemaker based on the scene, and the age group needs someone a tad sneaky and underhanded. I'm open to the character, but I'm a little guarded, too.

[CanaryFan98]

28 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

I've been saying this about Gabi for months. She often feels out of place in Salem.

This was months ago, but when he, Nicole, and Eric were working together was for Bella Magazine, I believe.

I was more shocked Alex knew and cared who Isabella was since they often act like he has no idea who Ciara is. I know the Ciara thing is supposed to be a wink, wink, and nudge, nudge joke, but I was still kinda surprised he mentioned Isabella. 

It was odd seeing Xander and Alex in the same scene as I always wished Xander was Alex instead of the made-up character he is.

I don't know how I feel about Talia. There's something about the actress' voice I find irritating. I felt the same about the Stephanie actress when she first arrived. I'm hoping she isn't slated for a Chanel romance, but there's really no one else on canvas I would want her with either. I think I liked the brief scene with Jada as sisters. She seems like she could be a bit of a troublemaker based on the scene, and the age group needs someone a tad sneaky and underhanded. I'm open to the character, but I'm a little guarded, too.

Alex was technically alive/around when Isabella was but due to wacky SORASing one wouldn't know that. Although Justin did end up leaving around the time Isabella was a fixture on the show. I am glad they referenced that Bella magazine was named after her. This was back when John was a businessman at Titan(honestly should've stayed in that role now as its more believable than him being an action hero at 70).

[Pearson80]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:45 AM, Nique said:

Shelle hasn't worked and don't work outside of JC/KS I don't know why they don't realize that. Shelle never had the greatest writing but their chemistry overcame it.

Original recipe Shelle was awesome and their chemistry did overcome the terrible writing.  I just wished that the show had not tried to make them a supercouple even with the original actors when they never were.. The supercouples were a moment in time and that era could never be duplicated in my opinion..

[Nique]

1 hour ago, Pearson80 said:

Original recipe Shelle was awesome and their chemistry did overcome the terrible writing.  I just wished that the show had not tried to make them a supercouple even with the original actors when they never were.. The supercouples were a moment in time and that era could never be duplicated in my opinion..

100%💯 with you I didn't like it either it was never gonna be. Show hasn't had one since JnJ 

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, Elio Kukui said:

Oh, but points back for showing at a modicum of fairness to Gwen despite her clear (and rightful) hatred of her.  Xander is kind of leading her on, albeit unintentionally.

Yeah, but at the same time, Gwen knows she is a backup. So, she lets Xander use her, hoping it will change.

Which is why, if she really does want a man that will love only her, she should walk away. But she won't.

[Artsda]

Of course Gwen gets a full set for her job plus is the bestest ever to raise traffic and newspaper sales.  🙄

Chad is a stupid moron.  He should know better.  They should be fired by Titan, but Maggie won't fire them, but Alex will the one she treats bad. 

Maggie's sorry Sarah didn't give Xander a second chance? Aren't we past second? 

Maggie seems really bad as CEO. What does she know to run Titan? "Ooh there's a lot of emails." She's so happy to see Xander who kidnapped Susan and Bonnie and assisted in Susan's death but Alex she treats like nothing?

 

[SouthernChick]

I hate Maggie’s “friendship” with Xander. I firmly believe if she had to pick one to save, between Xander and her own daughter, she would pick Xander. She’s a horrible mother.

[tribeca]

Did it look to anyone else that Gwen was thinking about getting pregnant?

 

[tribeca]

Just now, Elio Kukui said:

Not really.  It didn't look like it crossed her mind.  Nor did it seem to come up while talking to Leo.

Leo said they would make beautiful babies (referring to zander and Gwen ).  Gwen repeated the beautiful babies line when she was talking to herself. 

[Frozendiva]

So one article gets an uptick in readers? Uh, that is one article. Maybe see how the numbers are a month, three months, and six months from now. Don’t think there has been a newspaper set in years.

Chad, do be careful what you say around Leo. You are a good story for him.

Alex, it is rude to sit in the CEOs chair without permission. Not like you were making a private call.

I did like Xander bringing flowers for Maggie.

Gwen, Sarah is gone for now. Think of her absence as a vacation. I thought the Xarah reference was cute.

Rafe, Jada is your subordinate and you may get into trouble with HR at some point. At least Jada knows that her sister is in town. Outbaking Chanel!

[brisbydog]

Well can't see Alex lasting long at Titan now, And with Sarah out of town and Gwen out of Xander's orbit, I imagine Maggie will be hiring him back as her second. I noticed him mention his mother not being dead today, so maybe there will be a plot with his birth mother vs. Maggie who loves him more than her daughter most of the time

[WendyCR72]

56 minutes ago, brisbydog said:

Well can't see Alex lasting long at Titan now, And with Sarah out of town and Gwen out of Xander's orbit, I imagine Maggie will be hiring him back as her second. I noticed him mention his mother not being dead today, so maybe there will be a plot with his birth mother vs. Maggie who loves him more than her daughter most of the time

 I'm still in the camp of "Maggie was going to kill herself, so I get why she'd forever have a bond with Xander!" camp. But I know it's the minority, and I'm okay with it. 😎

[brisbydog]

39 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

 I'm still in the camp of "Maggie was going to kill herself, so I get why she'd forever have a bond with Xander!" camp. But I know it's the minority, and I'm okay with it. 😎

I adore them. Just agree she prefers him to Sarah. But so do I!

[peachmangosteen]

I mean, I think it's kind of messed up Maggie cares more about Xander than her own daughter but yea I don't care. They're cute together and Sarah's gone for now anyway lol.

[tribeca]

Where Johnny and Stefan always close or is that new thing just for this drug

story ?

[WendyCR72]

By the way, Leo? He can fuck right off. He has no business interfering with Xander's divorce papers. NONE OF HIS BUSINESS.

If he is so invested in Gwennie-Poo, let him discover he plays for both teams and let them contaminate each other and remain isolated from the rest of society for the good of the show. 

[nilyank]

39 minutes ago, tribeca said:

Where Johnny and Stefan always close or is that new thing just for this drug

story ?

Johnny had never met/know Stefan until after Stefan came back from the dead in the last few months. He also apparently doesn't know that Stefan demanded millions from Sami so that he could reveal where Kristen and Rolf were holding a not dead EJ.

[Artsda]

The fact Johnny keep choosing people he doesn't know like Ava and Stefan over his own father is really annoying. 

Alex should quit. Leave Titan to someone who has no experience. 

[boes]

There's got to be some sort of plot line where Leo and Alex somehow end up buried up to their necks in a fire ant nest with no possibility of escape.  Come on, Ron C., give me a reason to root for the ants!

We had yet one more riveting scene of Gwen pouring her heart out about how difficult it is for her, after all she's done, to not have landed Xander.  It's not fair, as she's the most giving person in all of Salem.  Especially if what's she giving are drug overdoses or intentionally trying to actively harm others.  Girl is such a saint that it's hard to imagine Xander not being overwhelmed by her love.

It's sort of sweet, though, that she's so downright repulsive that she's not even good enough for Xander.  That says something.

Not a spoiler, just an observation, but I can't wait till Maggie dumps Alex and gives his job to Xander.  

Edited March 11, 2023 by boes

[Frozendiva]

Xander may not be much, but he still has some standards and poor Gwendolyn is not it. Why does Leo have anything to do with his divorce from Sarah. Gwennie, Xander may see you as a Pick Me girl, and you and he just won’t work at this time. Both of you have done some terrible things but together, you aren’t better.

Maggie has a soft spot for him. Maybe she sees a younger Victor in him, and she learned to accept and love the good in him. As he aged, he got out of the criminal life. I too see her dumping Alex and hiring Xander to help her out.

Why does Johnny care about Uncle Stefan? Listen to your dad about the weird drugs. Why is Mr. Shin coming for dinner?

Guess the hospital is low on staff for Tripp to come back.

Johnny should be careful with Wendy, too. As smart as she is, her loyalty is to her dad and I would think Shin would not mind a Shin and DiMera marriage merger, at the high price of his daughter.

Dont know why DiMera and Titan just can’t hire non-family CEOs to do the actual business work. Nepotism and all, and most aren’t qualified to do much except sit by the pool.

[SouthernChick]

Maggie was on a power trip with Alex. Why couldn’t she fire the employees herself? She’s the one who wants to make cuts. Maggie was arrogant and on her high horse. I get that they want to give SR something to do, so send her back to managing a restaurant.

[WendyCR72]

Maggie being CEO actually sort of makes sense to me.

I mean, they started when I was literally a toddler, so I am not speaking firsthand here, but when amnesiac Mickey Horton as Marty Hansen met and fell in love with Maggie Simmons, she was on her own, even with a disability, and running a farm.

And farming IS a business.

So while it draws on very long history from 1974 (!), it still gives a foundation versus those that have none. (Hi, Gwen!)

And no, I do NOT give the hacks any credit here. It's just convenient that there is precedence for Maggie. Even if no one mentions it.

[WendyCR72]

2 minutes ago, Elio Kukui said:

She did mention it.  To Alex.

I must have missed it. Because I tend to tune out Alex whenever possible or try to skip around on Peacock. (The additional commercials suck, but at least I bypass what I don't like.) But good. Glad someone did pick up on it.

[tribeca]

Gwen “you killed Susan Banks ”

Zander  “you killed Laura Horton “

Gwen “ that was an accident “

Zander “was it?”

[brisbydog]

Xander didn't kill Susan. He refused to do so and let her go. Only Ava is responsible for that temporary death 

Jury out on Laura. Could have gone either way

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, SouthernChick said:

Maggie was on a power trip with Alex. Why couldn’t she fire the employees herself? She’s the one who wants to make cuts. 

Didn't she go to do that but Alex had already let the employees go home for the day? 

19 minutes ago, brisbydog said:

Xander didn't kill Susan. He refused to do so and let her go. Only Ava is responsible for that temporary death 

I wouldn't say Xander holds no responsibility in Susan's death but it's quite a stretch for Gwen to claim he killed her.

I've said this before but imo the notion that Gwen is somehow worse than Xander is ridiculous. Xander has done a lot of bad shit and he has never stopped doing bad shit. Neither of them, like most of the residents of Salem lol, are good people.

Xander pining for Sarah is almost worse than when they're together so if they're not going to move on from that ship then I wish they'd bring Sarah back and put them together so I can just fast forward their scenes.

[CanaryFan98]

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Maggie being CEO actually sort of makes sense to me.

I mean, they started when I was literally a toddler, so I am not speaking firsthand here, but when amnesiac Mickey Horton as Marty Hansen met and fell in love with Maggie Simmons, she was on her own, even with a disability, and running a farm.

And farming IS a business.

So while it draws on very long history from 1974 (!), it still gives a foundation versus those that have none. (Hi, Gwen!)

And no, I do NOT give the hacks any credit here. It's just convenient that there is precedence for Maggie. Even if no one mentions it.

Running a farm is infinitely harder than running a corporation I know people find it hard to believe but its true.

[4evaQuez]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Maggie being CEO actually sort of makes sense to me.

For me, the thing that hurts this storyline/development is that it comes out of nowhere. In the decade Victor and Maggie have been married and the musical chairs of Kiriakis CEO: Brady, Philip, Alex, Deimos, Sonny, am I missing anyone? I don't believe Maggie has ever expressed wanting to be CEO. This development and even her credentials like owning restaurants - which I miss for Maggie - and running a farm seem like justifications after the fact. 

This is one of the times where characters not having friends hurts storylines for me. I know Maggie mentors/mothers a lot of characters: Xander, most notably, but she doesn't have peers anymore who are her friends like Julie or Marlena to discuss her reasoning for becoming CEO.

Even a scene with Victor could help me transition into this new role for Maggie, but we all know why that isn't possible. 

All that being said, I do think Maggie/Alex work well together. Similar to Alex's scenes with Allie, Alex isn't a complete horndog with Maggie, and RSW feels more real and less plastic. I can't say I'm excited about the prospect of more Kiriakis CEO antics, but I at least enjoy Alex with Maggie more than him with Stephanie or Chad.

[nilyank]

45 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

For me, the thing that hurts this storyline/development is that it comes out of nowhere. In the decade Victor and Maggie have been married and the musical chairs of Kiriakis CEO: Brady, Philip, Alex, Deimos, Sonny, am I missing anyone?

Xander.

If Ciara or Claire were around, Victor would have named them as well.