S05.E02: Ballet

[Scarlett45]

Quote

June struggles to move on with her life in Toronto. Serena plans an elaborate memorial. Aunt Lydia and Janine prepare Esther for her first posting as a Handmaid.

Air Date: September 14, 2022

[PurpleTentacle]

Yeah, I think I'm rooting for Serena now. That is some evil genius level stuff she pulled off there, to give June a massive "fuck you!".

This show has lost every bit of realism and gravitas a long time ago. Might as well root for the fun villains!

[jenn31]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Might as well root for the fun villains!

😆 I’m with you. Let’s start a club! 😉

[HMFan]

I'm not so sure that there won't be a plot twist...Serena forms an alliance with June. Much like commander Lawrence and Nick do -- they work from the inside. If Serena can use her husband's death to travel freely between the borders, she can also use it to her advantage, and Tutello can use it for intel as well.

The look on Serena's face when she gets off the plane is like FuGiliad.

I love how the series uses ambiguity so the characters can talk in plain sight.

When Serena speaks to Nick and mentions all the trouble June has caused, he simply responds he has been blessed and you have as well.  Hmmm....  Commander Lawrence infers that sympathy for her late husband will only go so far, and Serena will need male insiders to back her. Serena knows Lawrence and Nick helped June. She says as much in the first church.

She uses the broadcast of the funeral to show what Gilead really looks like and imply she has the ability to infiltrate.

I'm still left wondering though how Esther obtained poison unless it was commander Putnam's intention to poison Esther because he held her responsible for the brothel deaths.

Janine infers the only reason Serena is protected is because she is pregnant.

I also wonder who the father of Serena's baby is. We know it's not Fred. That would explain Serena's immediate want and need to depart to Canada...so she wouldn't be put on the wall.  I believe in Season 4, Fred even acknowledged that the child inside Serena is no more his than Nicole is Serena's. Serena does look a bit large for 7 months pregnant. I wouldn't be surprised if she went into labor "early" in Gilead, and Gilead kidnaps the child and sends her back. Afterall, their agreement only covered Serena's safe return, not her yet to be born child.

And who is Nick's wife?  She seems to be a sympathizer with a bad leg.

Edited September 14, 2022 by HMFan

[crashdown]

7 minutes ago, HMFan said:

I'm not so sure that there won't be a plot twist...Serena forms an alliance with June. Much like commander Lawrence and Nick do -- they work from the inside. If Serena can use her husband's death to travel freely between the borders, she can also use it to her advantage, and Tutello can use it for intel as well.

That's what I'm expecting to happen at the end of season six, a teaming-up of Serena and June in which both of them come together to create a better version of Gilead, one in which women can read and there are no salvagings, tortures, or rapes but one in which the basic nineteenth-century societal structure remains. I think June will be forced into working toward a revised Gilead instead of blowing it to bits because she's going to get Hannah back and ultimately lose her again when Hannah is miserable in Canada and wants to return to Gilead. Serena, of course, has her own reasons for wanting a more palatable version of Gilead.

12 minutes ago, HMFan said:

I also wonder who the father of Serena's baby is. We know it's not Fred.

What do you mean, "we know it's not Fred"? We know that it *is* Fred. The showrunners have been very, very clear on that point.

[LavenderSunset]

My thoughts while watching:

I'm confused.  Serena lured Fred to Canada and helped them capture him.  Wouldn't Gilead view her as a traitor?  Why would she go back there?  Now he has no husband and is about the give birth to a valuable child.  If they don't punish her for betraying Fred, it seems like they would give her to another commander as a wife or handmaid.  June agrees with me!

It's interesting that Nick's wife (CC says her name is Rose) seems to know everything.  Nick must trust her.  

So Janine and Esther will end up at the Putnams' house.  I almost forgot that they have Janine's child!  Aunt Lydia must have allowed Janine to go as a reward to her, to be able to see her child.  It seems like that's the last thing the Putnams would want!

Esther = June Jr.  Commander Putman should worry about her biting off his fingers.  I like the friendship between Janine and Esther and how Janine is teaching her how to stay alive.  I think Janine really does like Esther and was trying to help.  OMG. Poisoned chocolates?!

Nick did get to see his daugher in person, not that long ago when he gave June the files about Hannah.  I bet Serena wants to invite the commander who has Hannah to the funeral.  (was that Commander Scott?) It will be broadcast on TV and Serean can subtly threaten to hurt Hannah.  That will get to June.

Wow, they went through with the funeral.  I kept hoping that it was all a ruse to trick Serena and surrender her to Gilead to hang for treason.  And I totally called it about Serena giving June a message about Hannha!  Not subtle though.  That was a huge F.U.  (It's a great opportunity for Nick to grab Hannah and get go to Canada with Mark though!)

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, LavenderSunset said:

I'm confused.  Serena lured Fred to Canada and helped them capture him.  Wouldn't Gilead view her as a traitor?  Why would she go back there?

I hear from a reliable source that they treat you better when you're pregnant.

Do they know that Serena lured Fred to Canada? They know Fred talked but I don't remember if the detail of Serena luring Fred to Canada was taken back to Gilead.

1 hour ago, LavenderSunset said:

Wow, they went through with the funeral.  I kept hoping that it was all a ruse to trick Serena and surrender her to Gilead to hang for treason.

Not too late for that to happen.

4 hours ago, HMFan said:

I also wonder who the father of Serena's baby is. We know it's not Fred.

4 hours ago, crashdown said:

What do you mean, "we know it's not Fred"? We know that it *is* Fred. The showrunners have been very, very clear on that point.

I thought it was settled last season that Fred is the father. Apparently, Fred's swimmers weren't dead.

Edited September 14, 2022 by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, HMFan said:

She uses the broadcast of the funeral to show what Gilead really looks like and imply she has the ability to infiltrate.

I didn't think of it that way but I like this better than what I was thinking, which was absolutely nothing.

[Helena Dax]

Oh, I liked this one! I wasn't feeling the ballet/funeral thing, but what an ending! I don't think Serena's intentions were anything but a FU to June... And it worked.

As much as I love Janine, I can understand Ester's actions. I don't think Janine was responsible for sending her to the Putnam's, but she knew what exactly was waiting for Ester there and she went along happily. Janine is only looking for herself now, and while I don't blame her, given the circumstances, Ester isn't someone you want to cross. Anyway, I'm pretty sure they won't die, since they are the only handmaids left whose names we know.

Tuello and Serena back in Gilead is still stupid.

[NeenerNeener]

7 hours ago, HMFan said:

If Serena can use her husband's death to travel freely between the borders, she can also use it to her advantage, and Tutello can use it for intel as well.

God, I hope that's why she  did that. I can't imagine going back there just to piss off June, or because she missed being the head heifer in the Gilead herd.

Edited September 14, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[MichaelaRae]

I’m sorry, but Serena is a MONSTER (you wanna talk “gender traitors,” Gilead, I’m looking at the women who willingly put other women into slavery for their gain - HI, SERENA!”) and while I don’t have great love for June at ALL (or Elizabeth Moss - sweet Jesus, can she direct an episode where she isn’t staring “dramatically” into the camera for 1/3 of the episode? No, no she can’t.) but only one of these two women was ritualistically raped and beaten and had her identity removed. Serena’s calculation to ensure the funeral was televised, to ensure that Hannah was the funeral “flower girl” (whatever they call that “ceremonially” in their “country” that is, what, 6 fucking years old?) and the way she looked into the camera after she kissed Hannah and held her hand and smirked? She KNOWS June is seeing this, she KNOWS it’s a literal THREAT (you killed my husband - who I so conveniently now remember I loved at one point, maybe after he gave me a baby because that’s LITERALLY my entire identity, wanting a baby - so I am making sure you know that your daughter is right beside me and can’t escape and ANYTHING could happen to her) and she cares about NOTHING except her precious standing, her precious respect and her precious baby (Nicole is a distant memory now that she has a “real” one to her). 

I want her separated from her son forever, forced to stay in her blessed biblical country of Gilead but as a Handmaid now that she’s proved she’s “fruitful” (those are the rules, sweetie, that you have so fervently clung to, sucks doesn’t it?) and suffer every bit of what her beloved “country” allows the unprivileged. 

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

God, I hope that's why she  did that. I can't imagine going back there just to piss off June, or because she missed being the head heifer in the Gilead herd.

I think you’re giving a lot more credit to Serena than 4 seasons of Serena have largely shown. Serena wants what she thinks she’s OWED because she’s a white conservative ‘Christian’ woman and what she thinks is “white conservative Christian women” appropriate - she might enjoy the “decadent” freedoms of Canada where you can yoga in a non-caftan but she thinks the Gilead way is BETTER overall since they believe in theocracy and “traditional gender roles.” She only “betrayed” Gilead because she wanted to spend time with the baby she stole (and promptly stopped caring about once she got pregnant.)

[LavenderSunset]

9 hours ago, HMFan said:

I also wonder who the father of Serena's baby is. We know it's not Fred.

Serena slept with Fred at that house in the country, right before she turned him over in Canada.  So it's pretty clear that Fred is supposed to be the father.

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Do they know that Serena lured Fred to Canada? They know Fred talked but I don't remember if the detail of Serena luring Fred to Canada was taken back to Gilead.

Good point!  Maybe they don't know that Serena was responsible for Fred's capture.

[steph369]

“Directed by Elizabeth Mioss”. No kidding. Of course it had to end with a closeup of her mug with the usual grimacing. I have no more interest in June’s story. It’s time to retire the character and let other handmaids shine. Unfortunately Emily is gone, but I’m interested to see what happens with Esther. She’s not your typical handmaid, given her backstory. I was thinking she’s a loose cannon just waiting to go off, just before her poisoning the chocolate. But I hope she survives. She’d make a better rebel and leader in the end than June. If the writers don’t screw up the character like they did June. 

15 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

This show has lost every bit of realism and gravitas a long time ago. Might as well root for the fun villains!

12 hours ago, jenn31 said:

😆 I’m with you. Let’s start a club! 😉

Count me in! The “fuck you” from Serena was a master plan. She is deliciously evil. Pretty sad when a show starts you rooting for the villain. 😆

[greekmom]

I can't believe that a political prisoner as Serena can just fly back to Gilead. Especially since she and Fred did narc on the place.  Honestly. They knew Fred was a traitor. Even the Putmans washed their hands of him last season. Both of them. I cannot believe Serena was welcomed back to bury Fred and will get away from there scot free.

Serena is only safe as her child is in her womb.  Honestly I thought the woman was alot smarter than this. She should know that once she has that baby, her head is up on the Gilead chopping block. And since she has proven she can have a child, she could be relegated to Handmaid.  

The wake at the Putmans was interesting.

Poor Esther. Putman is one batshit crazy dude.  No wonder she poisoned herself and Janine. She should have poisoned all the Aunts as well.

I want Serena to have a girl. So that Gilead can take her away.

But Serena getting back at June by showcasing Hannah at Fred's funeral. Ohhhhh that's not going to go down well. She just  threw down the gauntlet.  BTW Canada wouldn't show a traitor commander's funeral on all the televisions in Dundas square. Highlights on the news maybe but not a live stream. And not the way it was shown. That is utter bullcrap. Plus how would she know that June was watching at that exact moment that Hannah was shown?! Plot contrivance. 

I wonder when they filmed this. It must have been freaking cold.
 

[goldilocks]

10 hours ago, crashdown said:

The showrunners have been very, very clear on that point.

Not as clear as all that, unless you mean in offscreen material which shouldn’t apply here. They kept strongly implying that Fred was sterile through the series, then bang! He fathers a child. I keep thinking it will eventually be revealed that Serena slept with someone else. So I wouldn’t be surprised if we find out that it really wasn’t his. 

[steph369]

49 minutes ago, greekmom said:

And since she has proven she can have a child, she could be relegated to Handmaid.  

That would be poetic justice. The Putnam’s handmaid would be perfect.

[jmnf19]

2 hours ago, greekmom said:

I wonder when they filmed this. It must have been freaking cold.

I have to laugh at how American producers always show snow and cold in shots of Canada as if we all live in the Yukon. Toronto and Montreal are a lot warmer in the winter than the midwest of the U.S. and get horribly hot and humid in the summer. It hit 47C (117F) with the humidex this summer!

Edited September 15, 2022 by jmnf19

[greekmom]

One thing I forgot.  I wonder if Lawrence realized why Serena wanted what she wanted and went along with it so that it seems "he's sticking it" to June as well?!

I'm also thinking that most of the season will be in Gilead. 

[madpsych78]

As much as we're supposed to hate Gilead, I really liked this episode because there were a lot of Gilead scenes. Several Season 1 vibes. Not only some of the flashbacks, but also that thing with Esther and the Putnams. Commander Putnam offering chocolate to Esther had similar grooming vibes as Fred playing scrabble with June in Season 1. And Janine seeing her daughter, who she gave birth to in Season 1 I believe.

Just speculation, but Hannah....doesn't seem much younger than Esther TBH. I wonder if she is going to be groomed to be a wife?

I didn't realize how much I missed Lawrence and I love that I never totally know what side he's on.

[Brn2bwild]

They're really going to devote several jumbo screens to a funeral in Gilead?  It's not like the Queen died.

[Redrum]

I am kinda tired of Esther being utterly crazypants. The poisoning was weirdly placed. I genuinely don't care enough about the Putnams to care, and we seem to be back to the center of the Gilead government being in Cambridge Mass and not in Washington DC. Regardless, the Lydia/Janine/Esther silliness is really just that. Unless there's a very long game being played storywise, who really cares what Esther and Janine are assigned to do by Lydia?

I liked that Tuello made an offer to Nick.

I don't believe Fred would ever have been given a state funeral due to the nature of his actions against Gilead. I also genuinely don't believe Serena would ever be allowed into Gilead. There's just no reason for it. 

I feel like, with the presentation of Hannah at Serena's side that this season is very much being set as Serena vs June and to hell with the worldbuilding. If nothing else, I really don't believe Serena would be tolerated by the men of Gilead and I can't believe she isn't aware of that and that her lack of a man means she's totally unprotected. 

I liked Rita telling June to leave her out of June's crazy. 

[chocolatine]

Very little of this episode made sense. Serena traveling freely between Gilead and Canada, Tuello being able to go into Gilead with her without immediately being captured as an enemy of the state, Serena being able to convince the commanders that a public funeral for Fred would be good PR for Gilead, and, least believable of all, other countries broadcasting the entire funeral on what seems like every news channel. Fred wasn't even a very high ranking commander, let alone a head of state.

In other news, poor Janine gets crapped on again. At least she got to see Charlotte.

[paulvdb]

7 hours ago, greekmom said:

Plus how would she know that June was watching at that exact moment that Hannah was shown?! Plot contrivance. 

She wouldn't know that June was watching at that exact moment. But she knew that June would end up seeing it. If June hadn't seen it live someone who watched it would have mentioned it to her. Or she would have seen it in re-broadcasts of the highlights or photos in the newspapers.

[Cinnabon]

8 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

I’m sorry, but Serena is a MONSTER (you wanna talk “gender traitors,” Gilead, I’m looking at the women who willingly put other women into slavery for their gain - HI, SERENA!”) and while I don’t have great love for June at ALL (or Elizabeth Moss - sweet Jesus, can she direct an episode where she isn’t staring “dramatically” into the camera for 1/3 of the episode? No, no she can’t.) but only one of these two women was ritualistically raped and beaten and had her identity removed. Serena’s calculation to ensure the funeral was televised, to ensure that Hannah was the funeral “flower girl” (whatever they call that “ceremonially” in their “country” that is, what, 6 fucking years old?) and the way she looked into the camera after she kissed Hannah and held her hand and smirked? She KNOWS June is seeing this, she KNOWS it’s a literal THREAT (you killed my husband - who I so conveniently now remember I loved at one point, maybe after he gave me a baby because that’s LITERALLY my entire identity, wanting a baby - so I am making sure you know that your daughter is right beside me and can’t escape and ANYTHING could happen to her) and she cares about NOTHING except her precious standing, her precious respect and her precious baby (Nicole is a distant memory now that she has a “real” one to her). 

I want her separated from her son forever, forced to stay in her blessed biblical country of Gilead but as a Handmaid now that she’s proved she’s “fruitful” (those are the rules, sweetie, that you have so fervently clung to, sucks doesn’t it?) and suffer every bit of what her beloved “country” allows the unprivileged. 

I think you’re giving a lot more credit to Serena than 4 seasons of Serena have largely shown. Serena wants what she thinks she’s OWED because she’s a white conservative ‘Christian’ woman and what she thinks is “white conservative Christian women” appropriate - she might enjoy the “decadent” freedoms of Canada where you can yoga in a non-caftan but she thinks the Gilead way is BETTER overall since they believe in theocracy and “traditional gender roles.” She only “betrayed” Gilead because she wanted to spend time with the baby she stole (and promptly stopped caring about once she got pregnant.)

7 hours ago, steph369 said:

“Directed by Elizabeth Mioss”. No kidding. Of course it had to end with a closeup of her mug with the usual grimacing. I have no more interest in June’s story. It’s time to retire the character and let other handmaids shine. Unfortunately Emily is gone, but I’m interested to see what happens with Esther. She’s not your typical handmaid, given her backstory. I was thinking she’s a loose cannon just waiting to go off, just before her poisoning the chocolate. But I hope she survives. She’d make a better rebel and leader in the end than June. If the writers don’t screw up the character like they did June. 

Count me in! The “fuck you” from Serena was a master plan. She is deliciously evil. Pretty sad when a show starts you rooting for the villain. 😆

I’m rooting for Gilead to take away her baby and make her a handmaid. Even better - put her on the wall, as June mentioned.

[Anela]

Fuck Serena.  
It was nice seeing June and her husband, being happy for a little while.  

[Anela]

9 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

I’m sorry, but Serena is a MONSTER (you wanna talk “gender traitors,” Gilead, I’m looking at the women who willingly put other women into slavery for their gain - HI, SERENA!”) and while I don’t have great love for June at ALL (or Elizabeth Moss - sweet Jesus, can she direct an episode where she isn’t staring “dramatically” into the camera for 1/3 of the episode? No, no she can’t.) but only one of these two women was ritualistically raped and beaten and had her identity removed. Serena’s calculation to ensure the funeral was televised, to ensure that Hannah was the funeral “flower girl” (whatever they call that “ceremonially” in their “country” that is, what, 6 fucking years old?) and the way she looked into the camera after she kissed Hannah and held her hand and smirked? She KNOWS June is seeing this, she KNOWS it’s a literal THREAT (you killed my husband - who I so conveniently now remember I loved at one point, maybe after he gave me a baby because that’s LITERALLY my entire identity, wanting a baby - so I am making sure you know that your daughter is right beside me and can’t escape and ANYTHING could happen to her) and she cares about NOTHING except her precious standing, her precious respect and her precious baby (Nicole is a distant memory now that she has a “real” one to her). 

I want her separated from her son forever, forced to stay in her blessed biblical country of Gilead but as a Handmaid now that she’s proved she’s “fruitful” (those are the rules, sweetie, that you have so fervently clung to, sucks doesn’t it?) and suffer every bit of what her beloved “country” allows the unprivileged. 

I think you’re giving a lot more credit to Serena than 4 seasons of Serena have largely shown. Serena wants what she thinks she’s OWED because she’s a white conservative ‘Christian’ woman and what she thinks is “white conservative Christian women” appropriate - she might enjoy the “decadent” freedoms of Canada where you can yoga in a non-caftan but she thinks the Gilead way is BETTER overall since they believe in theocracy and “traditional gender roles.” She only “betrayed” Gilead because she wanted to spend time with the baby she stole (and promptly stopped caring about once she got pregnant.)

Agreed!!

the fact that she was having Fred’s baby, when she wasn’t supposed to be sleeping with her husband (which is all kinds of messed up, by itself), that they spoke out about gilead, for a sweet deal (that’s why she’s looking all soft about Fred, isn’t it?) - she shouldn’t be putting on a funeral to match that of a royal, or president. And TV cameras in Gilead? I know the commanders use technology, hypocrites that they are about everything, but I’m not sure why that would be allowed.  Unless they think it would suck some cult members into their way of life.  
I really need to see that smug look wiped off her face.  

Edited September 15, 2022 by Anela

[greekmom]

8 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

As much as we're supposed to hate Gilead, I really liked this episode because there were a lot of Gilead scenes. Several Season 1 vibes. Not only some of the flashbacks, but also that thing with Esther and the Putnams. Commander Putnam offering chocolate to Esther had similar grooming vibes as Fred playing scrabble with June in Season 1. And Janine seeing her daughter, who she gave birth to in Season 1 I believe.

Just speculation, but Hannah....doesn't seem much younger than Esther TBH. I wonder if she is going to be groomed to be a wife?

I didn't realize how much I missed Lawrence and I love that I never totally know what side he's on.

Hannah is being groomed for a wife as she is a Commander's daughter. Unless she steps out of line.  

Which begs to question. Where will they get future Handmaids when the first lot grow too old to have kids? The Econo girls?

[HMFan]

5 hours ago, Anela said:

Agreed!!

the fact that she was having Fred’s baby, when she wasn’t supposed to be sleeping with her husband (which is all kinds of messed up, by itself), that they spoke out about gilead, for a sweet deal (that’s why she’s looking all soft about Fred, isn’t it?) - she shouldn’t be putting on a funeral to match that of a royal, or president. And TV cameras in Gilead? I know the commanders use technology, hypocrites that they are about everything, but I’m not sure why that would be allowed.  Unless they think it would suck some cult members into their way of life.  
I really need to see that smug look wiped off her face.  

Why wasn't Serena supposed to be sleeping with her husband? I'm still confused how the baby was conceived when I saw no indication they had sex. I mean the child isn't an immaculate conception. IMO, it's someone elses. I see a plot twist.

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, HMFan said:

When did we ever see Serena and Fred - even implied - engage in having sex at any time leading up to her pregnancy?

I thought they banged on their way to America, when they stayed at the farmhouse in where the family was singing?

5 hours ago, Anela said:

the fact that she was having Fred’s baby, when she wasn’t supposed to be sleeping with her husband (which is all kinds of messed up, by itself)

I just never really accepted this as canon, that wives with handmaids couldn't sleep with their husbands. Sorry, I just don't believe that in a misogynist system designed for men to rule over women, that *men* designed a system where they can only have sex three times a month with one woman and can never sexually touch their wives ever if they qualify for a handmaid. 

There's rules that I buy but a rule where a man can't fuck as he pleases? Not buying it in a system set up by men and designed for multiple sex partners. 

[crashdown]

37 minutes ago, HMFan said:

When did we ever see Serena and Fred - even implied - engage in having sex at any time leading up to her pregnancy?

The sexual event leading to the pregnancy occurred in 3.11 ("Liars"). Fred and Serena stop at a friend's house in the country on their way to meet Tuello and reminisce about their pre-Gilead lives. They're sleeping in twin beds in the guest room, lock hands across the bed, and Serena pulls Fred over to her bed, whispering "come." 

32 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I just never really accepted this as canon, that wives with handmaids couldn't sleep with their husbands. Sorry, I just don't believe that in a misogynist system designed for men to rule over women, that *men* designed a system where they can only have sex three times a month with one woman and can never sexually touch their wives ever if they qualify for a handmaid. 

There's rules that I buy but a rule where a man can't fuck as he pleases? Not buying it in a system set up by men and designed for multiple sex partners. 

It's canon, in that it's both in the book and in the series (and in the Bible). Married couples are only supposed to engage in sex for the purposes of creating children. If a Commander has a handmaid, it's been demonstrated that his wife is not capable of providing him with children--they don't entertain the thought that the problem might lie with the man. Since the wife is officially barren, there's no religious-state-sanctioned reason why the husband should be engaging in sex with his wife. That leaves him free for the handmaid and the Jezebels, and it leaves the wives with precisely nothing at all.

[Redrum]

I tend to assume that unless the wife has had a hysterectomy it can't be assumed she's 100 percent barren and can still try.

But honestly I just think its implausible and stupid and I suspect it will be ignored.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Redrum

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

There's rules that I buy but a rule where a man can't fuck as he pleases? Not buying it in a system set up by men and designed for multiple sex partners. 

In Gilead sex is only for procreation - not pleasure.  Boy they didn't think that one thoroughly did they?

10 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I tend to assume that unless the wife has had a hysterectomy it can't be assumed she's 100 percent barren and can still try.

But honestly I just think its implausible and stupid and I suspect it will be ignored.

Remember, there was an issue - environmental - that has caused a major shift in extremely low birth rates.   That is why many women are not giving birth and those who had were conscripted as Handmaids.  Men are never sterile and it's the woman's fault. Therefore if a Handmaid wasn't getting pregnant, some of them would resort to having doctor's inpregnant them or even drivers.

[Redrum]

Right, totally aware of the environmental factor that in no way seems to impact any of these societies.

I'm saying in a low tech society (and Gilead is low tech in this respect) there's no way to be certain a wife is barren unless she's had parts removed. Why wouldn't a man want to keep trying with his wife if there's an outside chance she can have his baby still, but also do the handmaid? If he really wants intimacy with his wife it can be justified.

And why wouldn't wives point to Serena's obvious success as a reason to ignore this rule?

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Right, totally aware of the environmental factor that in no way seems to impact any of these societies.

I'm saying in a low tech society (and Gilead is low tech in this respect) there's no way to be certain a wife is barren unless she's had parts removed. Why wouldn't a man want to keep trying with his wife if there's an outside chance she can have his baby still, but also do the handmaid? If he really wants intimacy with his wife it can be justified.

And why wouldn't wives point to Serena's obvious success as a reason to ignore this rule?

Wives can point to whatever they want, but their words and feelings have no value in Gilead. The wives may very well be relieved not to have to sleep with their controlling, selfish, humorless husbands. I highly doubt those insecure assholes know how to please women. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Wives can point to whatever they want, but their words and feelings have no value in Gilead. The wives may very well be relieved not to have to sleep with their controlling, selfish, humorless husbands. I highly doubt those insecure assholes know how to please women. 

Oh agreed, but honestly the husbands are selfish and self involved and restraining themselves from sexual intercourse with available women? Frankly I assume they're nailing the Martha's and their wives. 

For that matter, if infertility is always the woman's fault, why is Esther a handmaid? She was an infertile wife. 

[madpsych78]

32 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Oh agreed, but honestly the husbands are selfish and self involved and restraining themselves from sexual intercourse with available women? Frankly I assume they're nailing the Martha's and their wives. 

For that matter, if infertility is always the woman's fault, why is Esther a handmaid? She was an infertile wife. 

When Esther was a wife, she didn't have a handmaid. There was no assumption about her infertility. She may have been a commander's daughter who was picked by another commander, and that was why she was made a wife right off of the bat. The ones who have handmaids are the commanders/wives who do not have children.

The individuals that are handmaids had a proven record of fertility, as well as probably some record of sin. Some may have been previously married and others were not. That is why Esther is now a handmaid, and why Serena has previously voiced the possibility of becoming a handmaid. The Wives may or may not be infertile, but they presumably do not have a record of sin.

[Redrum]

Esther has no proven record of fertility. She has not had a child despite her fertile husband and his fertile friends going at her. 

Why would there be an assumption of fertility when she's by all Gilead reasoning infertile?

Mind you, not that invested here. Esther is a handmaid because we need a face to get kicked and tortured even though in an execution happy dictatorship killing her husband would be a death sentence. Its just if we were really playing by the rules if Gilead, no baby means absolutely infertile. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Redrum

[RunningMarket]

Damn Serena is a stone cold, calculating bitch. And I'm here for it. Not that in any shape or form do I condone the general principles of Gilead, but in context of fictional characters on a show, she is far more compelling than June.

I get that Esther was scared, but to turn on Janine like that was sudden. Janine was giving her the right advice. It's not the advice she wanted to hear, but it was definitely advice that would help her survive in Gilead.

The wheels are starting to fall off Gilead. I'm interested to see if Mrs. Puttnam plays a role in this.

Edited September 15, 2022 by RunningMarket
adding more

[Cinnabon]

26 minutes ago, RunningMarket said:

Damn Serena is a stone cold, calculating bitch. And I'm here for it. Not that in any shape or form do I condone the general principles of Gilead, but in context of fictional characters on a show, she is far more compelling than June.

I get that Esther was scared, but to turn on Janine like that was sudden. Janine was giving her the right advice. It's not the advice she wanted to hear, but it was definitely advice that would help her survive in Gilead.

Survive as a slave with no rights? Maybe that’s not a goal all women want to pursue. If no one fights back, Gilead will continue their terrorism.

[Whimsy]

21 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

God, I hope that's why she  did that. I can't imagine going back there just to piss off June, or because she missed being the head heifer in the Gilead herd.

Oh, I believe it was 100% ONLY to fuck with June.  No other reason.  Or, better said, this...

19 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

I’m sorry, but Serena is a MONSTER (you wanna talk “gender traitors,” Gilead, I’m looking at the women who willingly put other women into slavery for their gain - HI, SERENA!”) and while I don’t have great love for June at ALL (or Elizabeth Moss - sweet Jesus, can she direct an episode where she isn’t staring “dramatically” into the camera for 1/3 of the episode? No, no she can’t.) but only one of these two women was ritualistically raped and beaten and had her identity removed. Serena’s calculation to ensure the funeral was televised, to ensure that Hannah was the funeral “flower girl” (whatever they call that “ceremonially” in their “country” that is, what, 6 fucking years old?) and the way she looked into the camera after she kissed Hannah and held her hand and smirked? She KNOWS June is seeing this, she KNOWS it’s a literal THREAT (you killed my husband - who I so conveniently now remember I loved at one point, maybe after he gave me a baby because that’s LITERALLY my entire identity, wanting a baby - so I am making sure you know that your daughter is right beside me and can’t escape and ANYTHING could happen to her) and she cares about NOTHING except her precious standing, her precious respect and her precious baby (Nicole is a distant memory now that she has a “real” one to her). 

I want her separated from her son forever, forced to stay in her blessed biblical country of Gilead but as a Handmaid now that she’s proved she’s “fruitful” (those are the rules, sweetie, that you have so fervently clung to, sucks doesn’t it?) and suffer every bit of what her beloved “country” allows the unprivileged. 

I think you’re giving a lot more credit to Serena than 4 seasons of Serena have largely shown. Serena wants what she thinks she’s OWED because she’s a white conservative ‘Christian’ woman and what she thinks is “white conservative Christian women” appropriate - she might enjoy the “decadent” freedoms of Canada where you can yoga in a non-caftan but she thinks the Gilead way is BETTER overall since they believe in theocracy and “traditional gender roles.” She only “betrayed” Gilead because she wanted to spend time with the baby she stole (and promptly stopped caring about once she got pregnant.)

I agree a thousand percent with this post. 

10 hours ago, Anela said:

Fuck Serena.  
It was nice seeing June and her husband, being happy for a little while.  

Eh.  Despite everything, I've never warmed to Luke.  

2 hours ago, Redrum said:

Oh agreed, but honestly the husbands are selfish and self involved and restraining themselves from sexual intercourse with available women? Frankly I assume they're nailing the Martha's and their wives. 

For that matter, if infertility is always the woman's fault, why is Esther a handmaid? She was an infertile wife. 

That's what the Jezebel's are for.  I don't know if they would be ready to claim Esther as infertile.  She's still very young.  But, I want to see Serena as a handmaid now SO badly that she's proven she's fertile. 

[Redrum]

9 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

Oh, I believe it was 100% ONLY to fuck with June.  No other reason.  Or, better said, this...

I agree a thousand percent with this post. 

Eh.  Despite everything, I've never warmed to Luke.  

That's what the Jezebel's are for.  I don't know if they would be ready to claim Esther as infertile.  She's still very young.  But, I want to see Serena as a handmaid now SO badly that she's proven she's fertile. 

Agree Esther is young. And we need a handmaid to torture. 

Very much agree that Serena sentenced to be a handmaid would be pleasing ;)

Though both she and Elizabeth Moss are starting to look like they're aging out of the handmaid business.

[Baltimore Betty]

Would Gilead take Serena's baby from her? Call it property of a founding father therefore it belongs to Gilead and send her back to Canada? And what is planned for her in Canada, will there be some trial or something, is she just a political prisoner? What will Mr. Tuello do with the Widow Waterford?

Do we know what happens to Janine? That poor girl has been thru it all.

[RunningMarket]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Survive as a slave with no rights? Maybe that’s not a goal all women want to pursue. If no one fights back, Gilead will continue their terrorism.

She can't fight back if she's dead. That's the point I was trying to make. Play the game so you can move within the system and then make your move. 

[crashdown]

I’ve been thinking a lot about the intercuts between the ballet and Fred’s funeral. It might have been a heavy-handed directorial choice, but I’m really digging it. The whole episode, and probably this entire season, is framed as a ballet between June and Serena. It’s almost comical how alike they are in their impulses and reactions in this episode. Each is convinced that the other has a master plan of destruction, when in fact neither has such a plan. (June never intended to go after Serena the way she went after Fred, and Serena certainly never intended to mess with June directly.) But their very certainty in the other’s deviousness has made it actually come to pass: Serena uses Hannah out of her own feeling of desperation (Hannah is her only weapon, and it’s clearly an effective one against June), and now June has no choice except to fight back. They’ve made themselves into the death-match adversaries that they currently are to one another.

I also love the fact that June is watching a literal ballet during Fred’s funeral. Remember the music box with the ballerina twirling inside it? It first showed up at the end of the Jezebel’s episode in season 1—Serena has been out of town but then, uncharacteristically, gives June the music box and tells her that it was something that she herself had in her room as a child and that she thought June might enjoy. June’s voiceover says that it’s “the perfect gift—a girl, trapped in a box. She only dances when someone else opens the lid, when someone else winds her up. . . . I will not be that girl in the box.” The music box disappears from June’s room after June is finally returned to the Waterfords after trying and failing to escape to Canada. Serena returns it to her after the two of them worked together writing and editing Fred’s memos in season two, as a gesture of solidarity and thanks. In short, there’s a lot of meaning in the whole idea of ballerinas and music between the two of them.

That’s why I just think it’s wonderful that we see June briefly, very briefly, enjoying the sight of a ballerina who is NOT trapped in a box, one who dances out of joy and not because someone else winds her up. But it doesn’t last for her—the sight of Serena with Hannah makes June think that in many ways she is still inside of Serena’s box, and it’s a place that she has sworn never to be again.

Edited September 15, 2022 by crashdown

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, RunningMarket said:

I get that Esther was scared, but to turn on Janine like that was sudden.

It wasn't sudden. Esther hated Janine when she and the other handmaids were hiding at her farmhouse. She noticed that Janine "befriended" a certain pig, so she had that pig slaughtered and forced Janine to eat its meat at dinner. And after the trip to the Putnams' house, Esther thinks Janine recommended her to be their new handmaid just to get access to Charlotte. Esther was obviously sickened by creepy Putnam and his game of hand-feeding her a chocolate truffle. I don't think that this situation was Janine's fault, but Janine was the easiest person for Esther to lash out against.

[Baltimore Betty]

35 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

It wasn't sudden. Esther hated Janine when she and the other handmaids were hiding at her farmhouse. She noticed that Janine "befriended" a certain pig, so she had that pig slaughtered and forced Janine to eat its meat at dinner. And after the trip to the Putnams' house, Esther thinks Janine recommended her to be their new handmaid just to get access to Charlotte. Esther was obviously sickened by creepy Putnam and his game of hand-feeding her a chocolate truffle. I don't think that this situation was Janine's fault, but Janine was the easiest person for Esther to lash out against.

Also, Esther dislikes weak women, June was not weak but Janine can be daft and weak. Sadly Janine knew how the systems works and was doing her best to survive but Esther was not interested in merely just surviving.

[chaifan]

I've always thought Serena was the best character of the show.  The best written character, the most interesting character.  Partly because you never knew which Serena you were going to get, and I think that was quite purposeful.  I really like what they've done with her this season, even only 2 episodes in.

7 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Oh, I believe it was 100% ONLY to fuck with June.  No other reason. 

Sorry, no, I disagree.  I think using Hannah as a prop in the funeral was an added bonus.  My call on this, formulated during last episode, is that Serena is building her power base.  She has a following in Canada, and playing the role of the grieving martyr's widow is only increasing that following.  She wants to be back in the spotlight, as she was prior to Gilead, and she sees this as her chance.  I really think that's where this is leading, that Serena will be more or less a cult leader in Canada.

6 hours ago, crashdown said:

I’ve been thinking a lot about the intercuts between the ballet and Fred’s funeral. It might have been a heavy-handed directorial choice, but I’m really digging it. The whole episode, and probably this entire season, is framed as a ballet between June and Serena.

I like this, but I had a different take on it.  I saw it as highlighting Serena as a performer.  Her performance as a grieving widow, her performance in front of the commanders, and the whole funeral was one big performance for her, to get her international recognition.  (See power hungry cult leader theory above.)  Hers is a well choreographed dance, just like the ballet dancer. 

Now, Commander Lawrence's role in all of this, I just can't figure out and I have no good theories.  I don't know why he would want to go along with this, unless he thinks the publicized funeral will spectacularly backfire and make Gilead look even more batshit crazy to the rest of the world.  But I love that I can't figure Lawrence out.  He's the second best character, next to Serena.

My one criticism of this episode is, as almost everyone else has mentioned, they failed to give the viewers a plausible explanation as to how/why Canada would go along with any of this.  Why does she get to leave the country and mingle about Gilead relatively freely?  They knew Serena wanted a big funeral for Fred - that is the last thing Canada would want to see.  Or why Gilead would allow Tuello to take her back to Canada.  It would be very easy to fake a "rebel" attack that kills Tuello and injures Serena just enough to justify her having to remain in a hospital in Gilead.  (Granted, we haven't seen her leave yet, I'm just speculating it happens.)

Other random thoughts:

Damn, the handmaid funeral costumes - black robes & hats with the red veils - were really creepy.

I hope Jeanine and Esther are really dead.  I'd like a little background on where Esther got the poison from, though.  We know she knew her herbs from her time at the farm, and knew how to drug her commander.  But where would she get poison from now?  I like both characters, but I think their deaths would be better to move the plot along than either/both of them surviving. 

If we're going to spend more time in Gilead, I'd really like to see Mrs. Putnam as part of the resistance. 

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I've always thought Serena was the best character of the show.  The best written character, the most interesting character.  Partly because you never knew which Serena you were going to get, and I think that was quite purposeful.  I really like what they've done with her this season, even only 2 episodes in

Co-sign--I feel the exact same way. She's definitely my favorite, because she's the most interesting and nuanced. She's written very well, and Yvonne portrays her brilliantly. There's something about Serena that makes me root for her to be better, and I'll be very curious to learn what the writers do with her ultimately.  Now that Fred is out of the way, now that she has options beyond Gilead, anything can happen. Until I can't think it anymore, I envision Serena and June working on the same side, if not precisely for the same reasons. 

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

My call on this, formulated during last episode, is that Serena is building her power base.  She has a following in Canada, and playing the role of the grieving martyr's widow is only increasing that following.  She wants to be back in the spotlight, as she was prior to Gilead, and she sees this as her chance.  I really think that's where this is leading, that Serena will be more or less a cult leader in Canada.

8 hours ago, crashdown said:

I agree, because it's her best way to survive the threat that she perceives from June. Serena, like June, will do whatever it takes to survive. I know that so many people are horrified at the idea of Serena's using Hannah as a prop, sure that it just solidifies her as irredeemably evil. But if things were reversed, would June have hesitated to pull something similar? I doubt it very much.  

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Now, Commander Lawrence's role in all of this, I just can't figure out and I have no good theories.  I don't know why he would want to go along with this, unless he thinks the publicized funeral will spectacularly backfire and make Gilead look even more batshit crazy to the rest of the world.  But I love that I can't figure Lawrence out.  He's the second best character, next to Serena.

Co-sign again; I agree. I'm sure he's ultimately more good than bad, but the categories of "good" and "bad" seem to be becoming less and less meaningful.

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

My one criticism of this episode is, as almost everyone else has mentioned, they failed to give the viewers a plausible explanation as to how/why Canada would go along with any of this.  Why does she get to leave the country and mingle about Gilead relatively freely?

The writers are interested in emotional truth and clearly not at all interested in rational world-building. It is what it is.

[sadie]

I understood Serenas motivation, but why would the Commanders want all of the freak show that Gilead is, on display for the world? The funeral procession was one of the creepiest things I’ve seen, the red face coverings on the women, the peasant looking onlookers, the men dressed in weird military uniforms. It looked like something out of N Korea. Did any of them really think this would make the world accept them more? And Fred wasn’t even anyone special, so to speak, he wasn’t their leader, he was just one of what seems to be hundreds of “Commanders”, so why the fuss other than Serena convincing them it will make the world see their humanity, yea they see your humanity with your shackled Handmaids lined up like prisoners, yup that is a really good look. 

[Baltimore Betty]

23 minutes ago, sadie said:

I understood Serenas motivation, but why would the Commanders want all of the freak show that Gilead is, on display for the world? The funeral procession was one of the creepiest things I’ve seen, the red face coverings on the women, the peasant looking onlookers, the men dressed in weird military uniforms. It looked like something out of N Korea. Did any of them really think this would make the world accept them more? And Fred wasn’t even anyone special, so to speak, he wasn’t their leader, he was just one of what seems to be hundreds of “Commanders”, so why the fuss other than Serena convincing them it will make the world see their humanity, yea they see your humanity with your shackled Handmaids lined up like prisoners, yup that is a really good look. 

Yes! Like we would all forget the violence of war, dehumanization of Americans and their rights, enslaved people, etc...one fancy funeral and suddenly the world is okay with Gilead? Serena thinks all their crimes will be forgiven while the world is impressed by their use of color coordination?

Shame on Tuello, this keeping his enemy close will not be good.