S06.E09: Fun and Games

[Crashcourse]

Kim and Jimmy were never your common hustlers.  They're both psychopaths.    

[Dev F]

43 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

On Jimmy's marital history: Although I get what Dev F is saying about how things Saul said in BB could have been encoded, he said he caught his second wife cheating. That would be the one before Kim.

True, but that obviously wasn't what convinced Saul that it's a cruel world and you need to just grow up and deal with it, because we saw Jimmy for years after that moment and he didn't think that way—whereas Kim leaving him apparently did turn him into the kind of cynical asshole who would make that sort of statement.

My suggestion is that Kim's betrayal was so painful that Saul can't even acknowledge it directly, and instead couches it in terms of some sleazy event with his previous wife that, if it happened at all, certainly didn't have the same dire impact.

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Kim's smacking down Cheryl's pride was certainly a vicious turn.  However, let's not make Cheryl out to be virginally pure.  She was done with Howard long before Howard was done.  I am NOT saying she was wrong to separate. 

I don't understand this at all. Kim was a complete shitbag to Cheryl. Cheryl may not have wanted to be married to Howard anymore, but that doesn't mean she didn't care about Howard, wasn't upset by his death and wanted to see his reputation ruined.

And we the viewers know Cheryl is right to be skeptical about Howard's alleged drug use, a lie for which Kim and Jimmy are completely responsible.

[Blakeston]

4 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

Kim and Jimmy were never your common hustlers.  They're both psychopaths.    

Kim's not a psychopath. A psychopath wouldn't have had a crisis of conscience like she did in this episode.

Jimmy has been acting more and more like a psychopath over the course of the series, but I don't think he's a genuine one. A psychopath wouldn't have been consumed by guilt about his treatment of Chuck, or had empathy for the elderly Sandpiper residents. 

[wendyg]

31 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

This universe started with Walt's birthday celebration, will it end with Gene's birthday reunion????

Another bit of synchronicity: BB began with Walt's 50th birthday. Jimmy will be 50 on the date he told Francesca to wait for a call.

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, wendyg said:

Minor musical note: in the earliest BCS episodes, we saw Jimmy revving himself for courtroom appearances accompanied by the music Bob Fosse uses for the same purpose in ALL THAT JAZZ.

Where he looks into the mirror with jazz hands and says "It's show time!"?

Describes Saul Goodman, (and the Joker) to a tee. Good Catch!

Edited July 19, 2022 by Eulipian 5k
Often used call back

[wendyg]

Yes. Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

[Constantinople]

13 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I feel like Eladio knows Gus had a hand in Lalo's disappearance but he let it go because:

• Hector didn't bring shit for proof other than his raging mad-on for Gus
• Between Lalo disappearing himself (with the swapped dental records) and Gus being discreet, Lalo really is just gone
• Eladio has no particular fondness for that smug prick Lalo and if Lalo wanted to fuck around and find out, so be it

Don Eladio loved Lalo, it was Bolsa who was cool to Lalo, as this scene from Season 5 shows

And while Don Eladio may not particularly like Hector, I doubt Eladio would take Gus's side if there were any evidence to support Hector's claim (I'm not even sure the Cousins believed Hector after they heard all of the "evidence"). Gus is still an outsider to the cartel and the Salamancas aren't.

[tennisgurl]

I actually love that after all that buildup as to what happened to Kim, we find out that it was the most simple explanation. She just left after realizing that she and Jimmy feed each others worse impulses, at least for now. This is the official end of Jimmy and full birth of Saul, there is really nothing left of Jimmy for him to hold onto without Kim. I admit that I am surprised that Kim pulled back, she has been going full lady Macbeth for some time now, but I guess that lying to Howards widow was the last straw. It was never really going to be over, she was never going to stop digging that hole she found herself in, it finally hit her that she has gone way too far. 

Both Kim and Mike got hit in the face with their brutal realities in this one, that the lies they tell themselves about the things they do are just that, lies to make what they have done easier to swallow. Kim finally had something of a "I did it because I liked it" realization, that this was never about her clients or sticking it to the man or whatever she cooked up in her head to make her feel like the hero, she spent all of that time and effort messing with Howard for the fun of it, because it made her feel good. Luckily for Kim, she can still get out, but Mike is fully in the hole and he knows that he can never unbury himself from the shit he's in. Mike can tell himself that he has more honor and more of a code than the other criminals he surrounds himself with but, at the end of the day, he's a criminal just like the rest of them. He knows that Mr. Varga was right when he said that killing more people wont be justice, but he also knows he cant change who is he now. 

At least Nacho's dad knows that he's dead, he doesn't have to spend his life wondering what happened to his son. That was a rough one for Mike for several reasons. He knows what its like to lose a son, and he knows that everything Mr. Vargas said was true. No matter what happens to the people who killed Nacho, nothing will bring his son back, whatever gang land killings happen after this just means more blood, not justice. 

The scenes with Gus and the sommelier were really interesting, it was such a rare moment of Gus just talking to someone with no agenda or secrets, he was just enjoying his time with a nice guy talking about something he loves. But then it hit him that he's never going to be the person who gets to sit in a bar and chat with someone about wine, its too dangerous, his life just cant allow those connections anymore. Its another look at being in too deep, he might have even regretted devoting his life to crime and revenge for just a minute, but he knows that this is who he is now. 

Howard's marriage might have been on the rocks, but it does seem like his wife did love him enough to be heartbroken at losing him and convinced that he wasn't an addict, which is nice but also really sad. If he had survived, maybe they could have improved their marriage one day.

I would have liked to see Kim getting more of a comeuppance, but she will have to live with this crushing guilt for the rest of her life, giving up her marriage and career out of guilt, and its like Mr. Varga said, nothing that happens to her will make things different. Having to live with the person she became might be punishment enough. Saul might be getting away with everything for now, but his life of hookers and golden toilets is a painfully empty one, and we know where things are heading for him. He survives and never faces legal consequences (yet) but his existence is bleak and meaningless. 

[Bannon]

50 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Kim's not a psychopath. A psychopath wouldn't have had a crisis of conscience like she did in this episode.

Jimmy has been acting more and more like a psychopath over the course of the series, but I don't think he's a genuine one. A psychopath wouldn't have been consumed by guilt about his treatment of Chuck, or had empathy for the elderly Sandpiper residents. 

Yeah neither one of them is a psychopath or sociopath. That's what makes their awful behavior interesting. They actually DO know better.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Manuel Varga, unlike Mike with his pretensions, is a man with a selfless moral code. His son ought to have respected that, as difficult as it may have been. Ignacio eventually came to understand what his father knows in his bones; that there are fates worse than dying. I understand what Kim did. She's decided to be a terrible person, because doing so serves her interests, even as she seeks cheap grace (as opposed to Ignacio's deliberate monumental sacrifice) by giving up her occupation and relationship with Jimmy. She's not remotely close to atoning for the suffering she's visited upon innocent people.

Yes, exactly. So many people on this show break bad, but the audience often to me seems way too quick to credit people with breaking good when they have just decided to get out of the kitchen because they couldn't stand the heat any more. 

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

True, but that obviously wasn't what convinced Saul that it's a cruel world and you need to just grow up and deal with it, because we saw Jimmy for years after that moment and he didn't think that way—whereas Kim leaving him apparently did turn him into the kind of cynical asshole who would make that sort of statement.

My suggestion is that Kim's betrayal was so painful that Saul can't even acknowledge it directly, and instead couches it in terms of some sleazy event with his previous wife that, if it happened at all, certainly didn't have the same dire impact.

I agree--I think that's a brilliant catch. Saul by BB is completely cynical. He's making a joke to Walter about the kind of thing that would make him think that because the memory of what really made him think that is buried too deep and is still too painful.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

If Kim actually wanted to be a decent human being, deserving of forgiveness?

Forgiveness from whom? She doesn’t need forgiveness from Jimmy, and she doesn’t care about anyone else. Well, she probably won’t forgive herself. 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I realized that after I posted it but then went to bed and didn’t fix it.   I think Gus  presented Max as “his business partner” but he was killed by the Salamancas on the orders of Don Eladio in  that freaking pool as a message to Gus to stay in his lane.  Which is why he has a hates them so much.   It is sad that he won’t allow himself even the smallest amount of happiness because of his war with the cartel but then again we know what kind of man he ultimately becomes.   Still it was nice to see him happy if only for a minute.  

Gus was always a violent sociopath, imo. He chose to get into the meth business and new exactly what that would entail. He doesn’t deserve happiness.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Forgiveness from whom? She doesn’t need forgiveness from Jimmy, and she doesn’t care about anyone else. Well, she probably won’t forgive herself. 

I disagree that she only cares about Jimmy. She's not a sociopath, incapable of moral reasoning. Her entire good bye speech to Jimmy is an expression of guilt for the harm inflicted upon undeserving others. She's still unwilling to acknowledge, however, that feeling guilty, changing her career and ending her marriage is not enough, to atone for what she's done. She still hasn't taken responsibility, really. 

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

You know you're getting up there in years when you see Arye Gross playing a cranky judge...and doing it rather well. I still hear that name and think of the young actor from '80s teen movies like Just One of the Guys and Soul Man. Also Ellen's guy friend on the early seasons of Ellen. 

Yes! I kept trying to remember all the things I’d seen him in other the years. I loved “Just one of the Guys.”

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I will say that the extension of this universe, created by Gilligan and Gould, I'd like to see, is Manuel Varga, Albuquerque's Seneca, running his small business, imparting his own brand of stoicism on the souls that surround him that desperately need him, whether they know it or not.

Such a shame that Nacho had such a father, yet chose to join the Salamancas in ruining other people’s lives. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Such a shame that Nacho had such a father, yet chose to join the Salamancas in ruining other people’s lives. 

An excellent example of how your children are their own agents, and how even the best parenting efforts don't always result in good outcomes.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Bannon

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

I don't understand this at all. Kim was a complete shitbag to Cheryl. Cheryl may not have wanted to be married to Howard anymore, but that doesn't mean she didn't care about Howard, wasn't upset by his death and wanted to see his reputation ruined.

And we the viewers know Cheryl is right to be skeptical about Howard's alleged drug use, a lie for which Kim and Jimmy are completely responsible.

Ultimately, I don’t think Howard’s reputation was ruined. Addiction is a disease, not a moral failing (and obviously Howard wasn’t an addict, In reality). If he had died from cancer, would that have ruined his reputation? Both Cliff and the other lawyer both understood that addiction is a serious disease and that Howard’s legacy was much more than that. 

[Sharper2002]

59 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

And while Don Eladio may not particularly like Hector, I doubt Eladio would take Gus's side if there were any evidence to support Hector's claim (I'm not even sure the Cousins believed Hector after they heard all of the "evidence"). Gus is still an outsider to the cartel and the Salamancas aren't.

And Eladio didn’t even offer Gus the chance to spend the night at his home. Yes, he said he didn’t want to hear Hector’s bell ringing all night, but I thought it solidified his outsider status. 

[Constantinople]

In the last episode Howard and Lalo are entombed together.

In this episode, both Cheryl and Hector know something is wrong with the official story about Howard/Lalo, but their concerns are discounted because of manufacturerd evidence.

[Eulipian 5k]

12 minutes ago, Sharper2002 said:

And Eladio didn’t even offer Gus the chance to spend the night at his home

I thought he did offer him a bed. But, he was going to send some women to Hector's room; I'm not sure if he would presume to send women to Gus' room? A lot is unsaid about what they know about Gus. (Except that he's a big earner, and those Curly Fries are to die for.)

[carrps]

Maybe it was just me (and we didn't get a good look at her), but I thought the hooker in Saul's bed looked a lot like Kim in the face.

[Sailorgirl26]

4 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

 Operation Mincemeat. So much misdirection.

Side note: I just watched the movie about this on Netflix. Colin Firth and Matthew McFadyen. Crazy story!! I had no idea!! 

[Sharper2002]

24 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I thought he did offer him a bed. But, he was going to send some women to Hector's room; I'm not sure if he would presume to send women to Gus' room?

He said he would, but he didn’t want to hear Hector’s bell ringing. I’m inclined to believe he wouldn’t offer him a bed even if Hector wasn’t there. 

[One Imaginary Girl]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Yes! I kept trying to remember all the things I’d seen him in other the years. I loved “Just one of the Guys.”

He also went out with Rachel once on Friends.

[Cinnabon]

31 minutes ago, carrps said:

Maybe it was just me (and we didn't get a good look at her), but I thought the hooker in Saul's bed looked a lot like Kim in the face.

Me too.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

An excellent example of how your children are their own agents, and how even the best parenting efforts don't always result in good outcomes.

Or at least not soon enough to sve them.

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Ultimately, I don’t think Howard’s reputation was ruined. Addiction is a disease, not a moral failing (and obviously Howard wasn’t an addict, In reality). If he had died from cancer, would that have ruined his reputation? Both Cliff and the other lawyer both understood that addiction is a serious disease and that Howard’s legacy was much more than that. 

But addiction, imo, seems like it would imply that his decision-making could have been impaired in ways cancer usually wouldn't. For instance, making a fool of himself in that last meeting. When people find out their attorney was an addict they might very well question whether they got the best work they could have gotten. It does potentially cast doubt on his work.

Edited July 19, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Colorado David]

helluva episode, this one.

eta: according to IMDB, the opening song is: Perfect Day
Performed by Dresage X Valente Bertelli (as Slow Shiver)

i would absolutely watch a show with Giancarlo E just having wines and talking about whatever comes into his head. Like a Dinner for Five version 2.0 with him as host. Tho the sommelier was being a bit too chatty, you can tell if someone wants to chat by the feedback. If they go all quiet, you've overstepped.

that poolside scene....man great edge of your seat stuff. and gus just plays it cool as a cucumber. you know he was thinking of his partner when we got the shot of him looking down into the pool

That cross examination by Howard's wife at the memorial. TENSE. i was so uncomfortable. The camera pullback through all the people was interesting.

With all that is invested in Kim's time, I'd just have taken a break and not practiced for awhile, rather than submitting a resignation to the board. Does anyone know, can you reapply if you resign?

Jimmy and his mansion, man living large my friend. I wonder if that fills the hole in your soul.

Mike giving closure to Nacho's dad, that was a nice moment even tho it didn't please his father.

That shot in the parking garage was nicely lit, and I wonder if that is the point Kim has already decided she's leaving practice.
 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Colorado David
adding music info

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Or at least not soon enough to sve them.

But addiction, imo, seems like it would imply that his decision-making could have been impaired in ways cancer usually wouldn't. For instance, making a fool of himself in that last meeting. When people find out their attorney was an addict they might very well question whether they got the best work they could have gotten. It does potentially cast doubt on his work.

Much like Howard himself hid Chuck’s illness from their clients. For many years.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[luna1122]

6 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

That shot in the parking garage was nicely lit, and I wonder if that is the point Kim has already decided she's leaving practice  

I believe she has. And she's already decided she's leaving Jimmy too. That was a goodbye kiss. 

I just realized I kind of thought Ayre Gross and Arliss Howard were the same person. No, Ayre Gross is NOT married to Debra Winger. 

I felt just an overwhelming sadness after this episode, on so many levels. I can't root for Jimmy or Kim anymore, but that doesn't mean its not tragic. 

Yeah, the hooker looked a little like Kim. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by luna1122

[Crashcourse]

14 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

The wine scene bored the 💩 out of me.

It bored me, too.  In particular, I wanted the sommelier to STFU.  Frankly, I couldn't tell if Gus was enjoying the guy's yapping, or if Gus was thinking about how he was going to kill him. 

[Cinnabon]

Just now, Crashcourse said:

It bored me, too.  In particular, I wanted the sommelier to STFU.  Frankly, I couldn't tell if Gus was enjoying the guy's yapping, or if Gus was thinking about how he was going to kill him. 

He asked Gus if he was talking too much, and Gus said “not at all.” I think they were both into it.

[SimplexFish]

I'm just glad Kim is gone, I was certainly hoping for a more of a sinister way she would have been taken off but at least no Kim Wexler's BS and no more of Rhea Seehorn's horrible acting.  

Only two episodes after the break and already the last two cast members not in BB are gone...the last four should be quite interesting 

In BB did Saul really have that bad a comb over?? I don't really remember

Edited July 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[BC4ME]

9 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

In BB did Saul really have that bad a comb over?? I don't really remember

I don't either but if the last scene before the time jump is in 2004 and the time jump is in 2005, he sure did loose a lot of hair in a year.

[Crashcourse]

10 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

and no more of Rhea Seehorn's horrible acting.  

Yes, no more of her barking in my ears.  Thank goodness.

[Sharper2002]

17 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

I'm just glad Kim is gone, I was certainly hoping for a more of a sinister way she would have been taken off but at least no Kim Wexler's BS and no more of Rhea Seehorn's horrible acting.  

I normally like Rhea’s acting, but I didn’t feel like she sold the crying at the end there. It felt like someone who was trying to cry, but the tears just weren’t squeezing out. Maybe I’ll watch again and feel differently, but it rang hollow to me.

[Eulipian 5k]

8 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

Yes, no more of her barking in my ears.  Thank goodness.

Don Eladio? ding...ding...ding.....

Maybe Kevin might mention to Cliff that Saul was there at the country club when the cocaine "appeared" in Howard's locker. He'll get an epiphany while on the toilet...... Dum-de-dum-dum.

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

I'm just glad Kim is gone, I was certainly hoping for a more of a sinister way she would have been taken off but at least no Kim Wexler's BS and no more of Rhea Seehorn's horrible acting.  

Only two episodes after the break and already the last two cast members not in BB are gone...the last four should be quite interesting 

In BB did Saul really have that bad a comb over?? I don't really remember

I truly don't understand why someone would watch dozens of episodes of a drama, over many years, while thinking that one of the two or three most significant characters was being portrayed by a horrible actor.

[Crashcourse]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I truly don't understand why someone would watch dozens of episodes of a drama, over many years, while thinking that one of the two or three most significant characters was being portrayed by a horrible actor.

Because the other characters aren't horrible actors?  At least that was the difference for me.

[monagatuna]

I suspect this is not the last we've seen of Kim, but this show has never failed to surprise me, so I'm taking my suspicions with a healthy dose of salt. Her departure hit me harder than Howard's, honestly, despite the fact that she went on her own and presumably goes on to continue living. The last time they had this conversation, they ended up married. I get that it had to be this way, or else they would continue to leave destruction in their wake (but who's to say they wouldn't do that separately), but I still feel gutted.

Four more episodes to go. I can't even begin to speculate what is going to happen. I have literally no idea. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I truly don't understand why someone would watch dozens of episodes of a drama, over many years, while thinking that one of the two or three most significant characters was being portrayed by a horrible actor.

She was nominated for awards, so clearly many think she’s an excellent actor. 🤷‍♀️I think there’s more to it for those who vehemently dislike her. I wonder how they felt about Skyler and Marie in BB . . .

Edited July 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[SimplexFish]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I truly don't understand why someone would watch dozens of episodes of a drama, over many years, while thinking that one of the two or three most significant characters was being portrayed by a horrible actor.

Very simple...

"Because the other characters aren't horrible actors?  At least that was the difference for me." DITTO

Edited July 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

Because the other characters aren't horrible actors?  At least that was the difference for me.

To each their own, of course, but when somebody has that many lines and scenes, and they're horrible, the rest of it doesn't matter. I stop watching, because it's a big world, with other stuff to do.

[Eulipian 5k]

I don't think Gus considers Kim a loose end. He made a point of not showing himself to Kim, and Mike has some "influence" with her husband. A careful, successful criminal like Gus won't kill a lawyer to avoid attention. His "and the lawyers?" was the extent of his concern. The paranoid, desperate, Gus Lalo had the drop on is gone; he went to the sit-down without back up or contingency.

The one Luminol/black light spot under Jimmy's carpet was the biggest "loose end"; but Saul has moved on up out of there!

[scenario]

57 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

He asked Gus if he was talking too much, and Gus said “not at all.” I think they were both into it.

I think he really liked the guy. He just wanted to hear him talk. He didn't care about what. Gus love the enthusiasm in his voice. His love of life that Gus was slowly losing in himself.

It's like that in a lot of relationships. Some times you just like to hear the sound of your partners voice. They weren't partners but Gus was dreaming of it. 

[Colorado David]

I think Gus doesn't have much of a social life, so hitting the restaurant/bar is his little celebration for getting the North territory and NOT being discovered by Don Eladio. And for sticking it to Hector.

I think Rhea has Skylar syndrome - the actress is good, but the characters are written dislikable enough we can't separate the character. Raymond Cruz is a really good actor - he's done some notable films. But his Tuco is so despicable sometimes you just hate the guy.

[peeayebee]

In BB didn't Gus have children's toys in his house? Since viewers knew about Max, I think there was the theory that Gus was either creating a facade of a married, family man or that he was actually married, for whatever reason (love or convenience). 

I think I'm remembering the toys correctly, so I wonder if the show will touch on this in any way. I know it's not important.

[gallimaufry]

Amazing episode.

The Manuel/Mike scene was perfection.  Mike started the show opining that you can be one side of the law or the other and still be good.  Manuel shoots that morality down.  Whether he's right to, it's not clear - like Chuck, sometimes that moral certainty can be punishing.  Let's face it, Nacho would almost certainly be alive if Manuel were willing to run with his son.  But it's a powerful counterpoint and I'm so glad the scene was there.

The Gus and Reed Diamond scene I completely missed the subtext of first time - feel stupid.  I was expecting it to lead into something to do with Madrigal for some reason and then was confused that it didn't lead anywhere.  Definitely need a rewatch.  The pool shot at the hacienda was terrific though (although definitely is one of the rare cases where people who haven't watched BB will have missed something big).  Gus is still a massive loose end to me though - there are just so many unanswered questions and I still feel we learned significantly more about him in two and a bit seasons of BB as an antagonist than in four seasons as the "and" credit protagonist.

I have a slightly more sympathetic take on Kim and Cheryl Hamlin than many of you.  There is no evidence of Howard's murder.  His body and his murderer's are never going to be found and Kim has absolutely no way to even start to meaningfully unpick the business with Lalo.  All the truth would do at this point is rake up more uncertainty, more fear, more doubt and potentially even invite really bad elements into Cheryl's life.  Instead, she burns her soul to give her what Mike tried to offer Manuel - closure.  It's horrible, but it worked.  She can move on thinking that this was a terrible tragedy and Howard is gone rather than questioning whether he was a drug addict, violently murdered or anything else, without ever being able to get closer to the truth than the word of a confessed con artist.

One beat I loved in that scene was Kim's genuine surprise at Jimmy actually being honest about his jealousy for Howard, something I'd never really thought about too much but makes perfect sense.  It's the only time I think he's ever really admitted the pain he feels about Chuck and I thought it was fascinating that he almost has healed through this greater tragedy.

A brief mention but an interesting one was that Kim called Paige so she must have known Kim's intentions.  Although the structure of the scene meant that it was impossible to see that conversation without blowing the surprise, I really, really hope we get that scene shown in a flashback before the end as I'm absolutely fascinated by the Kim/Paige friendship and would love to see it explored more deeply.

I also loved Kim leaving.  I can't imagine (and will be really sad if) this is the last Kim episode but certainly it felt right.  I thought it was really interesting that Kim's fear that drove her to embrace the crime so completely was losing Jimmy.  However, I think one failing of the season is just that the Howard scam did not feel fun.  The other scams they've done did - Huell, Mesa Verde.  But this one not only felt cruel but hardly ever did it feel really funny.  The car stunt was meant to be funny but didn't really land to me, the country club was good but rarely did we see anything that felt like it was enjoyable in the same way as that montage of delays to Everett Acker's house being demolished in 505.  Also, given how dark Kim went really abruptly in 510, pulling it back to 509 Kim feels... strange.  I just don't know they ever did enough for me to justify that switch in 510.

Time jumps... okay, as time jumps go, this was well-executed.  I'm not a big fan of the genre.  Particularly in a show like this which is so meticulous at plotting the tiniest details, there was a lot that got swallowed up.  Francesca's hopeful face at the start compared to her cynical attitude at the end, the sourcing of the KettleStatue... lots of little details that felt left on the table.  Plus, even this Jimmy I can't see glibly advocating murder.  Now, to be fair, not every loose end has dramatic merit but I hope we have the time to dig into this version of Jimmy.  I did think it was 2008 already with the talk of the public masturbator but I'm glad it's not as there's a lot more to do.

Let's hope Rhea Seehorn isn't gone for too long.

[scenario]

6 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

In BB didn't Gus have children's toys in his house? Since viewers knew about Max, I think there was the theory that Gus was either creating a facade of a married, family man or that he was actually married, for whatever reason (love or convenience). 

I think I'm remembering the toys correctly, so I wonder if the show will touch on this in any way. I know it's not important.

I'm guessing its just a façade. Or maybe he is divorced and his kids/grandkids visit once or twice a year and he just leaves the toys out. 

[Eulipian 5k]

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

he just leaves the toys out. 

You're kidding, right? Have you ever been to Pollos Hermanos? It's spotless! Don't libel Gus!

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Amazing episode.

The Manuel/Mike scene was perfection.  Mike started the show opining that you can be one side of the law or the other and still be good.  Manuel shoots that morality down.  Whether he's right to, it's not clear - like Chuck, sometimes that moral certainty can be punishing.  Let's face it, Nacho would almost certainly be alive if Manuel were willing to run with his son.  But it's a powerful counterpoint and I'm so glad the scene was there.

The Gus and Reed Diamond scene I completely missed the subtext of first time - feel stupid.  I was expecting it to lead into something to do with Madrigal for some reason and then was confused that it didn't lead anywhere.  Definitely need a rewatch.  The pool shot at the hacienda was terrific though (although definitely is one of the rare cases where people who haven't watched BB will have missed something big).  Gus is still a massive loose end to me though - there are just so many unanswered questions and I still feel we learned significantly more about him in two and a bit seasons of BB as an antagonist than in four seasons as the "and" credit protagonist.

I have a slightly more sympathetic take on Kim and Cheryl Hamlin than many of you.  There is no evidence of Howard's murder.  His body and his murderer's are never going to be found and Kim has absolutely no way to even start to meaningfully unpick the business with Lalo.  All the truth would do at this point is rake up more uncertainty, more fear, more doubt and potentially even invite really bad elements into Cheryl's life.  Instead, she burns her soul to give her what Mike tried to offer Manuel - closure.  It's horrible, but it worked.  She can move on thinking that this was a terrible tragedy and Howard is gone rather than questioning whether he was a drug addict, violently murdered or anything else, without ever being able to get closer to the truth than the word of a confessed con artist.

One beat I loved in that scene was Kim's genuine surprise at Jimmy actually being honest about his jealousy for Howard, something I'd never really thought about too much but makes perfect sense.  It's the only time I think he's ever really admitted the pain he feels about Chuck and I thought it was fascinating that he almost has healed through this greater tragedy.

A brief mention but an interesting one was that Kim called Paige so she must have known Kim's intentions.  Although the structure of the scene meant that it was impossible to see that conversation without blowing the surprise, I really, really hope we get that scene shown in a flashback before the end as I'm absolutely fascinated by the Kim/Paige friendship and would love to see it explored more deeply.

I also loved Kim leaving.  I can't imagine (and will be really sad if) this is the last Kim episode but certainly it felt right.  I thought it was really interesting that Kim's fear that drove her to embrace the crime so completely was losing Jimmy.  However, I think one failing of the season is just that the Howard scam did not feel fun.  The other scams they've done did - Huell, Mesa Verde.  But this one not only felt cruel but hardly ever did it feel really funny.  The car stunt was meant to be funny but didn't really land to me, the country club was good but rarely did we see anything that felt like it was enjoyable in the same way as that montage of delays to Everett Acker's house being demolished in 505.  Also, given how dark Kim went really abruptly in 510, pulling it back to 509 Kim feels... strange.  I just don't know they ever did enough for me to justify that switch in 510.

Time jumps... okay, as time jumps go, this was well-executed.  I'm not a big fan of the genre.  Particularly in a show like this which is so meticulous at plotting the tiniest details, there was a lot that got swallowed up.  Francesca's hopeful face at the start compared to her cynical attitude at the end, the sourcing of the KettleStatue... lots of little details that felt left on the table.  Plus, even this Jimmy I can't see glibly advocating murder.  Now, to be fair, not every loose end has dramatic merit but I hope we have the time to dig into this version of Jimmy.  I did think it was 2008 already with the talk of the public masturbator but I'm glad it's not as there's a lot more to do.

Let's hope Rhea Seehorn isn't gone for too long.

I like the fact that the Howard scam didn't feel fun. The other scams were them trying to trick rich people out of some money or help someone. The Howard scam was the first one where the purpose was to hurt the victim. Kim wanted to destroy Howards career for the sheer enjoyment of it. She lied to herself that it was to help people but it wasn't. She had no really good reason to do it. She just enjoyed the power. That's the point where Kim truly crossed over the line into being a villain.