S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[peeayebee]

Quote

I assumed Hector went bananas because Lalo was lying about what he was going to do and Lalo wanted Hector to have a real reaction (we know Hector's not very good about faking emotions even post-stroke). So whatever Plan A was, and Hector knew it was, he knew Hector wouldn't be happy about it, which just convinced Mike more.

Yes, I figured Hector didn't know the line was tapped, so he was reacting sincerely to what Lalo was saying. I just wondered what exactly had him so frantic. 

There were several mentions of Chuck in this ep. Howard talking about Chuck's quirk with carbonated beverage cans, the whiskey that Howard and Chuck used to drink to celebrate, Howard suggesting that Kim and Jimmy thought he had sided with Chuck too often. Seems there was more. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by peeayebee

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Holy shit. It's great writing when something is a big enough shock for me to audibly gasp (Lalo appearing out of the shadows) and at the same time think, "Of course, that makes sense."

It's funny you should say that. On Talking Saul, when they were briefly discussing (in general terms of course) what's coming in the back half of the season, Bob praised the writers, saying that we will not be able to predict what happens, but at the same time what happens will feel very organic and earned. 

I felt the same way as BB was ending. Even when things were shocking, they still felt right.

[dwmarch]

Look on the bright side Howard. No more sleeping in the guest house!

(...too soon?)

48 minutes ago, SnarkAttack said:

I thought the knock on the door was Lalo.

Turns out Lalo is not the one who knocks, he just helps his damn self. It's actually a nice through-line in this episode. Every time we see him, Lalo is in all kinds of places he isn't supposed to be.

52 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Howard's death might the most brutal since Andrea's, which technically hasn't happened yet. With Jane a close third.

Indeed. This show doesn't have the same cruel edge to it that Breaking Bad had. Like when Nacho died for example. We knew he had it coming and in the end he was kind of able to choose how he went out so it didn't feel unjust. But Howard's demise was a lot more like the ones we saw on the parent show: cruel, unexpected and shockingly violent.

24 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

And suddenly she threw away her moral compass, and decided that any crazy scam could be justified if she convinced herself that she was taking down the powerful.

YMMV of course but I think this episode tied a nice bow on where I thought Kim's motivation came from. As I recall, they hatched this scheme right after their first visit from Lalo when they talked him down. And after getting a ruthless cartel badass to walk away they probably felt invincible. So Howard was an obvious choice for who to take down next because there was no way he'd ever show up at their door with a gun. Lalo on the other hand...

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Yes, I figured Hector didn't know the line was tapped, so he was reacting sincerely to what Lalo was saying. I just wondered what exactly had him so frantic. 

Oops! Sorry, I meant to make a guess at that as well. I figure it meant he was going to go at Gus in a way that seemed more risky, so Hector would think he was going to fail and get himself killed.

3 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

There were several mentions of Chuck in this ep. Howard talking about Chuck's quirk with carbonated beverage cans, the whiskey that Howard and Chuck used to drink to celebrate, Howard suggesting that Kim and Jimmy thought he had sided with Chuck too often. Seems there was more. 

I did love all the mentions of Chuck in this ep. Chuck pushed Jimmy to be Saul, then Jimmy proved Chuck was right about him.

[Starchild]

2 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

There were several mentions of Chuck in this ep. Howard talking about Chuck's quirk with carbonated beverage cans, the whiskey that Howard and Chuck used to drink to celebrate, Howard suggesting that Kim and Jimmy thought he had sided with Chuck too often. Seems there was more. 

It felt like they were drawing parallels. Like with Jimmy targeting Chuck, however deserved you might think Kim's plan against Howard is (looking at you Bannon :P ), the final outcome for the character is totally undeserved, and a part of the soul dies. And we as viewers lose a little respect for the characters.

[Armchair Critic]

Maybe what will happen to Kim is after Howard's death she will tell Jimmy they are no good for each other and breaks up with him and that is why we don't see her in BB? Or will she grow a conscience and admit she set up Howard (but that would implicate Jimmy too)?

[Starchild]

1 minute ago, Armchair Critic said:

Maybe what will happen to Kim is after Howard's death she will tell Jimmy they are no good for each other and breaks up with him and that is why we don't see her in BB? Or will she grow a conscience and admit she set up Howard (but that would implicate Jimmy too)?

However this shakes out, Saul doesn't lose his license to practice, so if anyone takes a professional fall, I can't see it being anyone but Kim.

[SunnyBeBe]

Ok.  I have to be critical of the attorneys and mediator just walking out of the mediation.  So what if one attorney wasn’t well. There was another attorney available representing the Plaintiffs.  It’s court ordered and you have to stay, even if there’s a delay and make a good faith effort.  It’s not up to the mediator  to leave either.  I guess they had to go that route for it to fit their storyline.  
 

Lalo bores me.  

[Lalo Lives]

I thought Mrs. Landry was going to get a bad reaction (read: death) from (the pictures, Howard, the wheelchair) secondary contact. Jimmy would have been crushed.

They had me going because she too drank chamomile.

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Howard's death might the most brutal since Andrea's, which technically hasn't happened yet. With Jane a close third.

Also don't forget Crazy 8's murder...WW first

[ahmerali]

OK, I wasn't expecting that.

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

The saddest part is that Lalo was probably there for the most banal possible reason: to give Saul the tape he made so he can give it to Don Eladio if he doesn't make it out of the laundry alive.

Edited to add: Well, banal for Lalo. I guess that would be a pretty dramatic reason for anyone who isn't an evil genius drug kingpin.

Good call. I admit I was totally wrong with my prediction last week, other than that Howard would be dead. I think you're absolutely right about what Lalo is looking for.

[Arkay]

There should be no world in which a Venn Diagram puts Howard and Lalo in the same circle.

His death is 1000% on Jimmy and Kim, and poor Howard was right about every aspect of what they had become. If only he hadn’t gone to their home.

Good writing, though. I didn’t see that coming. And I’m one who is a fan of how creepy cool Tony Dalton plays  Lalo.

[SimplexFish]

For Kim to be so paranoid about Lalo's (remember chair under the door knob) they were both pretty nonchalant about a knock on their apartment door in the middle  of the night.

I actually thought Lalo was going to kill Kim...maybe he still will

How about Kim wanting to save Howard by telling him to go a few times when Lalo entered?

Wasn't Plan A, Lalo going to kill Gus? That was right after the assignation attempt ad he was using the coyotes to take him to the US and Hector said No...proof. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by SimplexFish

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Lalo bores me.  

That last scene was really the best use of a character like that. They didn't try to play him up as some super interesting villain with a monologue. He just showed up and it was understand that someone was going to die. Like as if a velociraptor had just walked in and only Howard didn't know what it was. So it wasn't about Lalo being scary or unique, just deadly.

[Bannon]

44 minutes ago, Starchild said:

It felt like they were drawing parallels. Like with Jimmy targeting Chuck, however deserved you might think Kim's plan against Howard is (looking at you Bannon :P ), the final outcome for the character is totally undeserved, and a part of the soul dies. And we as viewers lose a little respect for the characters.

Gotta take exception to this. I repeatedly said that what Kim and Saul were doing to Howard could not be excused in any way. What I did say, and will stand by, is that Kim's contempt for Howard was very well earned. Howard was an A-hole who reformed himself. People do change sometimes, and that's where Howard was wrong in his final words. People can be awful, awful, human beings without actually being sociopaths. Saul and Kim are awful, but they aren't sociopaths, although it's quite understandable that Howard would think they were.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, I don’t have a cold bloodied killer on my tail, yet I’m much more security minded than Kim.  Lol

[SunnyBeBe]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That last scene was really the best use of a character like that. They didn't try to play him up as some super interesting villain with a monologue. He just showed up and it was understand that someone was going to die. Like as if a velociraptor had just walked in and only Howard didn't know what it was. So it wasn't about Lalo being scary or unique, just deadly.

To me he’s a super villain and I’m over it.  I hate super villains, because it’s just frustrating and unbelievable, for me.  Except, maybe Gus.    

[SimplexFish]

(queue black and white set)

"So...after all that...a happy ending"

Edited May 24, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Bannon]

Could barely watch the conference room scene, it was so hideous, what Kim and Saul were doing to Howard. As soon as Howard said to young assistant Cary that perhaps there were more important things than being thought of as a great legal mind, I knew for a fact that Howard was dead, although I didn't expect that Lalo would be the instrument. Yeah the parallels between Howard, Hank, and, I think, Nacho, are quite strong. All three went about the hard work of becoming better human beings, and died anyways. Grim indeed.

It was really gross to see my suspicion confimed, that nothing aroused Kim like executing the plan to ruin Howard.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Bannon

[Penman61]

27 minutes ago, Arkay said:

His death is 1000% on Jimmy and Kim, and poor Howard was right about every aspect of what they had become. If only he hadn’t gone to their home.

Doesn’t Lalo get even 1% of the blame for Howard’s death?

[Bannon]

What's worse? A sociopath like Lalo, who is incapable of feeling remorse, and thus engages in great evil, or somebody like Jimmy, who does awful things, despite being capable of feeling remorse? The former is certainly less interesting.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ok.  I have to be critical of the attorneys and mediator just walking out of the mediation.  So what if one attorney wasn’t well. There was another attorney available representing the Plaintiffs.  It’s court ordered and you have to stay, even if there’s a delay and make a good faith effort.  It’s not up to the mediator  to leave either.  I guess they had to go that route for it to fit their storyline. 

Yeah.  And that's why I'm not as...flabbergasted or awed by this episode as others.  That the weirdness would tank the case makes no sense.  The facts are the facts. 

45 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

To me he’s a super villain and I’m over it.  I hate super villains, because it’s just frustrating and unbelievable, for me.  Except, maybe Gus.    

I enjoy Lalo but they've introduced a conundrum.  The only reason to kill Howard is if he plans on killing Kim and Jimmy.  But if Kim and Jimmy live, then there was no more reason to killing Howard than there was to killing Margarethe.  Lalo doesn't know who this guy is and this guy doesn't know who Lalo is. 

But overall, Lalo isn't on enough for me to get irritated by his omnipresence. 

I'm actually more irritated by the fact that everything Kimmy and Jim wanted had basically gone off without a hitch. I feel that Lalo killing Howard feels as cheap to me as the introduction of the white supremacists in Breaking Bad. 

But I feel like this show is at its best with the quiet tragedies. For a while, the big spec was that the caffeine would do him in.  I think that would've worked better.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Irlandesa

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Also don't forget Crazy 8's murder...WW first

In my opinion Walt killing Krazy 8 was in no way comparable to Lalo killing Howard.

Walt killed in self-defense. Krazy 8 had already threatened Walt and Jesse's life once before, and Krazy 8 was trying to manipulate Walt into letting him go. Walt almost did until he realized Krazy 8 was hiding a piece of the broken plate and Walt realized Krazy 8 was planning to kill Walt all along.

As this episode's title says, Lalo executed Howard. Howard wasn't a violent criminal as Krazy 8 was. Which is why I compared Howard's death to Andrea's.

[millennium]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I hope that Howard’s words are burned into the souls of Jimmy and Kim.

I hear they're soulless, so ...

[millennium]

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

As this episode's title says, Lalo executed Howard. Howard wasn't a violent criminal as Krazy 8 was. Which is why I compared Howard's death to Andrea's.

I will compare Howard's death to Drew Sharpe's.

Wrong place, right time.

[anoninrva]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Could barely watch the conference room scene, it was so hideous, what Kim and Saul were doing to Howard. As soon as Howard said to young assistant Cary that perhaps there were more important things than being thought of as a great legal mind, I knew for a fact that Howard was dead, although I didn't expect that Lalo would be the instrument. Yeah the parallels between Howard, Hank, and, I think, Nacho, are quite strong. All three went about the hard work of becoming better human beings, and died anyways. Grim indeed.

It was really gross to see my suspicion confimed, that nothing aroused Kim like executing the plan to ruin Howard.

I just wrapped up Breaking Bad and El Dorado again, and I still don't like Hank.  Sure, he's one of the most moral characters in the show, low bar that that is, but he's still a jerk.  I felt a lot worse for Howard tonight than I did for Hank getting mixed up with the prison nazis.  Howard was also a jerk, but he didn't deserve this.  I think Kim may end up dead or imprisoned, but of course I could be wrong.  I don't see her splitting with Jimmy.  They seem to really love each other.

Has anyone mentioned a spin-off with Jesse?  He seems to be in the vacuum protection program at the end of El Dorado.

[anoninrva]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I enjoy Lalo but they've introduced a conundrum.  The only reason to kill Howard is if he plans on killing Kim and Jimmy.  But if Kim and Jimmy live, then there was no more reason to killing Howard than there was to killing Margarethe.  Lalo doesn't know who this guy is and this guy doesn't know who Lalo is. 

Lalo is a wanted fugitive - arguably.  He doesn't seem to be in the habit of leaving witnesses.  Margaethe had no idea who he was.  Howard may have.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ok.  I have to be critical of the attorneys and mediator just walking out of the mediation.  So what if one attorney wasn’t well. There was another attorney available representing the Plaintiffs.  It’s court ordered and you have to stay, even if there’s a delay and make a good faith effort.  It’s not up to the mediator  to leave either.  I guess they had to go that route for it to fit their storyline.  

Did they ever say the mediation was court ordered? I'm not saying it wasn't. I just don't remember one way or the other.

I can understand why the mediation had to be called off for the day. Arguably, after what happened, the mediator should be replaced because the mediator should be seen as being neutral. That's may not be fair to the mediator, but fairness to the plaintiff and defendant should take precedence.

That said, ultimately I don't see why the case had to be settled that day for an amount that had already been rejected.

[Constantinople]

Lenny wants a new backstory for his character after discovering he has a broken arm.

Actors!

[millennium]

Am I the only one who thought Howard's comeuppance was funny?   I laughed.   Jimmy and Kim having sex while listening in ... it made perfect sense to me.   For four seasons they were condescended to and beaten down by self-righteous tools like Howard and Chuck, who, while they may have had one or two admirable qualities, were incorrigible pricks regardless.

Jimmy and Kim only did what many of us wish we could do to some of the assholes in our lives.   The Ken Wins of the world.  Jimmy and Kim are anti-heroes and I was cheering them on all the way.   Even Howard grudgingly admired them in the end, their determination, their dedication to taking him down.    They didn't plan for Howard to die.   They never envisioned that outcome.   How can they be blamed for it?  Sure, Howard wouldn't have been at their apartment if not for their hijinks but they're not psychic.  Lalo, on the other hand, is psychotic, so maybe, just maybe he can be blamed for Howard's death instead.

[thuganomics85]

Yup, it's definitely the final season, y'all!  Outside of those we know will be sticking around for Breaking Bad, I'm starting to think everyone else is fair game here (although I'm actually starting to think Kim might make it since they won't go through all of their non-BB regulars.  Right?)

Fare the well, Howard Hamlin.  You weren't a perfect man, but you weren't the monster that Kim and Jimmy seemed to have created in their minds, and at least some of your final words seem to be hitting the mark with them.  And while Lalo is 100% responsible for his death, you know it's rightfully going to impact both Jimmy and Kim, so even if they "won", they will have to live with his shadow for the rest of their lives.  That's at least fitting for two budding sociopaths like them.  Also liked that Howard was already putting the pieces together (the photo switch, how he was drugged, etc.), so even if he fell for the con, he was clearly figuring things out (although he noticeable was still under the false impression that Jimmy was the ringleader.)  Credit to Patrick Fabian for helping make what easily could have been an one-dimensional bore someone way more compelling than that.

While the overall plan made more sense at the end, I still think there were a few variables that could have easily derailed it.  What if Howard went to get the photos himself?  Or if the mediator just decided that Howard was the one at fault, but was willing to continue on with the rest of them?  Or, hell, there could have even been an outside chance that Howard would have simply made the P.I. wait until after the mediation.  Granted, no plan is ever going to be foolproof, but this still seemed to be one hell of a gamble.

I do wonder if anything is going to come out of Kim skipping that meeting for her dream job.

Looks like Mike is hauling Gus away to the safe house, but while I'm not sure Gus fully knows what Lalo is up to, he definitely made a face over them leaving the laundry mat with less guards.  I wonder if he'll figure out what Lalo is really trying to pull off.

Curse the break for the last six episodes!  I want them all now!

[PeterPirate]

Howard, at the very least, would understand from Saul and Kim's reaction that the mysterious non-knocking night visitor was not a good person.  It wouldn't take long for Howard to figure out who Lalo was.  From Lalo's perspective Howard was a threat to the secret of his undeadedness.  Margarethe posed no such threat--or if she did, then so did the bartender and everyone else in the establishment.   

For that matter, it might be considered a minor plot hole that Howard was unaware Saul was known as the bagman for a murder suspect.  The entire staff of the criminal justice system was treating Saul like he was kryptonite, and the entire underworld was treating him like he was Superman.  Once word got out to anyone at HHM it would have traveled up the chain of command at light speed.  The same with the people at Davis and Main.  And HHM did take on criminal cases like the Kettlemans, although I suppose they were "white-collar" criminals who didn't descend into the bowels of the county courthouse.  

Edited May 24, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, anoninrva said:

I just wrapped up Breaking Bad and El Dorado again, and I still don't like Hank.  Sure, he's one of the most moral characters in the show, low bar that that is, but he's still a jerk.  I felt a lot worse for Howard tonight than I did for Hank getting mixed up with the prison nazis.  Howard was also a jerk, but he didn't deserve this.  I think Kim may end up dead or imprisoned, but of course I could be wrong.  I don't see her splitting with Jimmy.  They seem to really love each other.

Has anyone mentioned a spin-off with Jesse?  He seems to be in the vacuum protection program at the end of El Dorado.

Yes, Hank was a jerk at the beginning of BB, although one consistent attribute throughout was an unwavering, loyal, unselfish, unconditional, love for his wife Marie. What changed him was his being humbled after his PTSD from experiencing the slaughter of his DEA associates via the Tortuga bombing, and then his brutal rehab following the Cousins' attempted assassinarion. He had the courage to look at his failings and weaknesses, and resolve to be a better human being. In large measure, he succeeded, and the courage and quiet nobility with which he faced his death were quite moving to me. Did he become perfect? Of course not; his damnable pride, like nearly all the other major characters in BB, still raised it's ugly head at the end, and resulted in his and Gomey's death.

One of the aspects of what makes the writing of BCS and BB so good is that the major characters, wirh the exceptions of the actual sociopaths like Lalo, Hector, Tuco, and Uncle Jack,  are written as complex human beings, instead of one dimensional tropes. They are allowed to be more than one unchanging thing. They can evolve, or devolve. Howard WAS a real A-hole to Kim and Jimmy, but that doesn't justify for a second what Kim and Saul did (no, I've never once contemplated wholly unethical complex revenge schemes, which entailed drugging someone, because they were an A-hole to me), but Howard did go on a journey of frank self assessment and improvement, and succeeded, albeit imperfectly. Going to Kim and Saul's apartment in anger was extremely understandable, but it was done out of a sense of wounded ego. The resiliency and serenity, grounded in respect for others, that Howard was working hard to obtain at the end of his life, might have helped him undestand that Kim and Saul had become so toxic (and he certainly recognized their toxicity in his final words to them) that there was nothing to be gained by interacting with them again. His understandable anger, however, compelled him to seek a face to face confrontation, so he can inform them that he's going to make it one of his central goals to reveal to the world what Saul, and especially Kim, truly are.  Nobody in the BCS/BB universe ever has a good outcome from serving their anger/ hatred via a pursuit of revenge.

It is so, so, unusual to have writing in a format like this that takes such care in illuminating a character who, while quite prominent, is not one of the character around whom the story revolves.

[Bannon]

From a plotting perspective, Lalo shooting Howard in the head, in Kim and Saul's apartment, poses some real challenges.The senior partner of one of a state's most prominent law firms can't just disappear, or have his gunshot body discovered in a ditch, or supposedly kill himself in somebody's apartment, without there being a deep investigation. The phony PI aspect, with the photos of Saul in the park with the frisbee player, would be uncovered. I hope this isn't just hand-waved away.

[nodorothyparker]

Again, some genuinely great TV as we enter the home stretch. 

The jowly painting of Chuck looming over that doomed meeting really set the tone for everything that came after. I had long believed that the house that Chuck built wouldn't survive the operatic feud of the Brothers McGill, but it had seemed in the past season or so like HHM just might. So all the callbacks to Chuck here, including Howard's wry acknowledgement that there's more important things than being the greatest legal mind ever, foreshadowed that the show hadn't forgotten and wasn't quite done after all with Chuck's legacy, which both correctly called and helped create Saul Goodman. 

Howard's end was shocking and made me gasp too but it also felt perfect from a storytelling stance. Jimmy had wanted to bail on the big plan as loose details emerged but went through with it anyway because it's what Kim wanted, was celebrating thinking he'd gotten away with it even if Howard would have a few mean things to say to him about it that he'd never be able to prove, but couldn't anticipate the Lalo factor because Kim hadn't clued him in that Lalo was thought to still be alive and had already been warned might come knocking. Both he and Kim now have to live with that, that Howard's final moments were spent correctly naming what they were only to be gunned down by someone Jimmy's extracurriculars had invited into their lives. There would have otherwise never been any reason for Howard and Lalo's paths to cross at all except for them. I can only guess enough time had passed since Kim and Mike's meetup had happened with nothing happening that she got caught up in their plotting and forgot about it.

I wonder now how Howard's death in going to be handled. If it's made to look like a suicide, and it might be readily accepted as such given that he'd just had a spectacularly public and humiliating meltdown earlier that same day with marital problems and rumors of drug use swirling, Jimmy and Kim are going to have a much harder time rationalizing how that was for the greater good.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

Am I the only one who thought Howard's comeuppance was funny?   I laughed.   Jimmy and Kim having sex while listening in ... it made perfect sense to me.   For four seasons they were condescended to and beaten down by self-righteous tools like Howard and Chuck, who, while they may have had one or two admirable qualities, were incorrigible pricks regardless.

Jimmy and Kim only did what many of us wish we could do to some of the assholes in our lives.   The Ken Wins of the world.  Jimmy and Kim are anti-heroes and I was cheering them on all the way.   Even Howard grudgingly admired them in the end, their determination, their dedication to taking him down.    They didn't plan for Howard to die.   They never envisioned that outcome.   How can they be blamed for it?  Sure, Howard wouldn't have been at their apartment if not for their hijinks but they're not psychic.  Lalo, on the other hand, is psychotic, so maybe, just maybe he can be blamed for Howard's death instead.

I don't think Howard was an incorrigible prick, or comparable to the Ken Wins guy at all.

He's been a jerk on a few occasions, but he's also been a good guy plenty of times, too. He was far more patient with Chuck than almost anyone else would have been. He and the other partners agreed to pay for Kim, a mail room employee, to go to law school. And unlike Jimmy and Kim, he became a better person over the course of time.

[Bannon]

28 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Again, some genuinely great TV as we enter the home stretch. 

The jowly painting of Chuck looming over that doomed meeting really set the tone for everything that came after. I had long believed that the house that Chuck built wouldn't survive the operatic feud of the Brothers McGill, but it had seemed in the past season or so like HHM just might. So all the callbacks to Chuck here, including Howard's wry acknowledgement that there's more important things than being the greatest legal mind ever, foreshadowed that the show hadn't forgotten and wasn't quite done after all with Chuck's legacy, which both correctly called and helped create Saul Goodman. 

Howard's end was shocking and made me gasp too but it also felt perfect from a storytelling stance. Jimmy had wanted to bail on the big plan as loose details emerged but went through with it anyway because it's what Kim wanted, was celebrating thinking he'd gotten away with it even if Howard would have a few mean things to say to him about it that he'd never be able to prove, but couldn't anticipate the Lalo factor because Kim hadn't clued him in that Lalo was thought to still be alive and had already been warned might come knocking. Both he and Kim now have to live with that, that Howard's final moments were spent correctly naming what they were only to be gunned down by someone Jimmy's extracurriculars had invited into their lives. There would have otherwise never been any reason for Howard and Lalo's paths to cross at all except for them. I can only guess enough time had passed since Kim and Mike's meetup had happened with nothing happening that she got caught up in their plotting and forgot about it.

I wonder now how Howard's death in going to be handled. If it's made to look like a suicide, and it might be readily accepted as such given that he'd just had a spectacularly public and humiliating meltdown earlier that same day with marital problems and rumors of drug use swirling, Jimmy and Kim are going to have a much harder time rationalizing how that was for the greater good.

Powerless people, without survivors who have power themselves, can have their outlandish "suicides" staged successfully, but even that usually doesn't work in real life. One of a state's most powerful attorneys, survived by what appears to be a highly accomplished spouse, isn't going to have a "suicide" by gunshot, in the home of a couple he stated he had a conflict with, so quickly accepted on an unquestioned basis. Especially with a pistol that can't be tied to the "suicide" victim. It's an interesting plotting problem, and I'm curious to see how it is dealt with. As much as I loved BB, there were a few plotting issues, like the ability to stage near simulteaneous assassinations of witnesses in multiple prisons. We'll see.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think Howard was an incorrigible prick, or comparable to the Ken Wins guy at all.

He's been a jerk on a few occasions, but he's also been a good guy plenty of times, too. He was far more patient with Chuck than almost anyone else would have been. He and the other partners agreed to pay for Kim, a mail room employee, to go to law school. And unlike Jimmy and Kim, he became a better person over the course of time.

I agree that Howard was obviously not incorrigible; his story was one with corrigibility at it's core, which is what makes his story so tragic. Where I differ is the notion that his dealings with Chuck were commendable in anything but an extremely superficial way. Howard's behavior with regard to Chuck were an abdication of ethics and responsibility, as a friend, a lawyer, and an employer to a large number of people. Yes, dealing with the situation responsibly would have been very difficult,  but when you're being paid more than anyone in the building, that's what is demanded; the effort to attempt, in full,  to do very difficult things. If you're not willing to go the distance to do what needs to be done, then you can't accept the money on an ethical basis.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I agree that Howard was obviously not incorrigible; his story was one with corrigibility at it's core, which is what makes his story so tragic. Where I differ is the notion that his dealings with Chuck were commendable in anything but an extremely superficial way. Howard's behavior with regard to Chuck was an abdication of ethics and responsibility, as a friend, a lawyer, and an employer to a large number of people. Yes, dealing with the situation responsibly would have been very difficult,  but when you're being paid more than anyone in the building, that's what is demanded; the effort to attempt, in full,  to do very difficult things. If you're not willing to go the distance to do what needs to be done, then you can't accept the money on an ethical basis.

[Rickster]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Powerless people, without survivors who have power themselves, can have their outlandish "suicides" staged successfully, but even that usually doesn't work in real life. One of a state's most powerful attorneys, survived by what appears to be a highly accomplished spouse, isn't going to have a "suicide" by gunshot, in the home of a couple he stated he had a conflict with, so quickly accepted on an unquestioned basis. Especially with a pistol that can't be tied to the "suicide" victim. It's an interesting plotting problem, and I'm curious to see how it is dealt with. As much as I loved BB, there were a few plotting issues, like the ability to stage near simulteaneous assassinations of witnesses in multiple prisons. We'll see.

I’d really doubt the body will be found in the apartment. Also forensics (powder residue) won’t support suicide either. He might end up buried in the desert.

[nodorothyparker]

12 hours ago, Bannon said:

Powerless people, without survivors who have power themselves, can have their outlandish "suicides" staged successfully, but even that usually doesn't work in real life. One of a state's most powerful attorneys, survived by what appears to be a highly accomplished spouse, isn't going to have a "suicide" by gunshot, in the home of a couple he stated he had a conflict with, so quickly accepted on an unquestioned basis. Especially with a pistol that can't be tied to the "suicide" victim. It's an interesting plotting problem, and I'm curious to see how it is dealt with. As much as I loved BB, there were a few plotting issues, like the ability to stage near simulteaneous assassinations of witnesses in multiple prisons. We'll see.

Maybe. You may be right. My first thought was that of course Howard's body would have to be moved if it's not disappeared altogether, but I can also see the show going with a story after he was ranting about Jimmy in that doomed meeting and has ranted about Jimmy to Cliff Main in the past, all without any evidence, that he showed up at Jimmy's home drinking and ranting some more before shooting himself. At this point to outsiders, it looks like he's developed some serious paranoia and fixation with Jimmy, who he doesn't really have much official interaction with anymore since they parted ways after Chuck's death. Jimmy's smear campaign has been that good in discrediting Howard to those who knew him. I try not to get too ahead of myself speculating with this show and don't presume to know. But I almost think it's worse for Jimmy and Kim in their de-evolution if they still don't suffer any external consequences for what they did. That's kind of what's led them here. They kept getting away with stuff and it kept getting bigger and bigger, feeding their sense of invincibility to go after Howard the way they did. Because it wasn't really hurting anyone. Knowing that he's at least partially responsible for the death of a person from his old life who really didn't deserve it and never had to own up to it would certain explain some of Saul's obvious self loathing as much as everything that went down with Chuck.

There can't be much of the way of official consequences because Saul Goodman is still practicing law when Breaking Bad happens. Sure, everyone we see rightly thinks he's a scumbag but that seems to be entirely about the kind of lawyer he is. Again, the big question mark is Kim.

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Rickster said:

I’d really doubt the body will be found in the apartment. Also forensics (powder residue) won’t support suicide either. He might end up buried in the desert.

His disappearance would trigger perhaps an even more in-depth investigation, even if an authentic-looking "suicide note" could be successfully planted for someone to discover. There are a lot of powerful people who have strong incentive to find out what happened to one of the most powerful attorneys in a state. I can't envision a world where the phony PI aspect isn't uncovered.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Bannon

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Maybe. You may be right. My first thought was that of course Howard's body would have to be moved if it's not disappeared altogether, but I can also see the show going with a story after he was ranting about Jimmy in that doomed meeting and has ranted about Jimmy to Cliff Main in the past, all without any evidence, that he showed up at Jimmy's home drinking and ranting some more before shooting himself. At this point to outsiders, it looks like he's developed some serious paranoia and fixation with Jimmy, who he doesn't really have much official interaction with anymore since they parted ways after Chuck's death. Jimmy's smear campaign has been that good in discrediting Howard to those who knew him. I try not to get too ahead of myself speculating with this show and don't presume to know. But I almost think it's worse for Jimmy and Kim in their de-evolution if they still don't suffer any external consequences for what they did. That's kind of what's led them here. They kept getting away with stuff and it kept getting bigger and bigger, feeding their sense of invincibility to go after Howard the way they did. Because it wasn't really hurting anyone. Knowing that he's mostly responsible for the death of a person from his old life who really didn't deserve it and never had to own up that would certain explain some of Saul's obvious self loathing as much as everything that went down with Chuck.

There can't be much of the way of official consequences because Saul Goodman is still practicing law when Breaking Bad happens. Sure, everyone we see rightly thinks he's a scumbag but that seems to be entirely about the kind of lawyer he is. Again, the big question mark is Kim.

Is it possible that Kim is so remorseful that she concocts a way to completely take responsibility for the plot against Howard, leaving Saul standing? 

[bad things are bad]

7 hours ago, Penman61 said:

His death is 1000% on Jimmy and Kim

I will give Kim a bit of a break as she desperately tried to get Howard to leave when Lalo first got there.

Talking Saul was actually pretty good,  with some insights into the characters and story 

[nodorothyparker]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Is it possible that Kim is so remorseful that she concocts a way to completely take responsibility for the plot against Howard, leaving Saul standing? 

I think anything's possible, especially where she's concerned. I just know that over the seasons we've all speculated on a lot of things we thought would trigger much closer scrutiny or would be bigger deals to outsiders than they turned out to be. If one of your takeaways from this show is how the legal system is set up to churn out guilty pleas, one of mine has been that people don't pay attention or outright dismiss a lot of things that don't fit easy narratives because they've got other priorities.

[Andre LaPlume]

I criticized the slow pace but one aspect where it worked (at least with me) was I totally had forgot about Lalo relative to Jimmy and Kim.    They’ve been totally separate from the cartel world the last couple of episodes. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Andre LaPlume said:

I criticized the slow pace but one aspect where it worked (at least with me) was I totally had forgot about Lalo relative to Jimmy and Kim.    They’ve been totally separate from the cartel world the last couple of episodes. 

Yeah, I shoulda' known, the moment Lalo climbed out of an Albuquerque storm sewer, that cartel conflict was going to intersect with The Plot Against Howard in this episode.

[TakomaSnark]

52 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Powerless people, without survivors who have power themselves, can have their outlandish "suicides" staged successfully, but even that usually doesn't work in real life. One of a state's most powerful attorneys, survived by what appears to be a highly accomplished spouse, isn't going to have a "suicide" by gunshot, in the home of a couple he stated he had a conflict with, so quickly accepted on an unquestioned basis. Especially with a pistol that can't be tied to the "suicide" victim. It's an interesting plotting problem, and I'm curious to see how it is dealt with. As much as I loved BB, there were a few plotting issues, like the ability to stage near simulteaneous assassinations of witnesses in multiple prisons. We'll see.

Concur. BCS also hand-waved away the aftermath of Jimmy's massive outburst/scene in the clubhouse at the country club, which Howard and Cliff would have heard about the moment they walked inside and almost certainly immediately put together any shenanigans discovered in the locker areas (most certainly, discovering Jimmy had been down there either before or after the discovering of the cocaine at Howard's locker). The plot would have/should have been undone from the very start.

I really hope that there's a good reason we don't see Kim in BB and I hope that reason is Lalo Salamanca.  

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think anything's possible, especially where she's concerned. I just know that over the seasons we've all speculated on a lot of things we thought would trigger much closer scrutiny or would be bigger deals to outsiders than they turned out to be. If one of your takeaways from this show is how the legal system is set up to churn out guilty pleas, one of mine has been that people don't pay attention or outright dismiss a lot of things that don't fit easy narratives because they've got other priorities.

I agree, it just that dead bodies or disappearances tend to create strong incentives, and some of those incentives are held by people with power, false narratives tend to get undermined. I'm really interested to see how this is written.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Concur. BCS also hand-waved away the aftermath of Jimmy's massive outburst/scene in the clubhouse at the country club, which Howard and Cliff would have heard about the moment they walked inside and almost certainly immediately put together any shenanigans discovered in the locker areas (most certainly, discovering Jimmy had been down there either before or after the discovering of the cocaine at Howard's locker). The plot would have/should have been undone from the very start.

I really hope that there's a good reason we don't see Kim in BB and I hope that reason is Lalo Salamanca.  

That didn't bother me too much, because there was, to me, a lot of humor in Saul playing Shylock. Funny gets a lot of slack from me; it's why I loved BB's giant magnet outside the police station scene, despite it being ridiculous.