S06.E06: Axe and Grind

[qtpye]

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

I know some didn't like the episode, but I thought it was terrific at building a sense of foreboding tragedy, as Kim drives away from a noble dream, to indulge in her now senseless (given what she is risking) anger and resentment. I'm starting to think her affection for Saul has become in large measure transactional; as long as he is an effective instrument in aiding her scam to shower Howard with her wrath, she's really hot for Saul. That's some really psychologically ugly stuff, and they are starting to better flesh out where and how that ugliness was nurtured.

A few more things. The scene with Howard and his wife was so damned sad, as was Mike talking to Calleigh and DiL. Lalo really is that most tedious of characters, a sociopath with no inner conflict; he's just all superficial charm as a thin veneer, concealing a conscious-free drive to get what he wants. I'm glad that he doesn't get more scenes.

 

 

20 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

IKR? I yelled “damn it” out loud when he let Lalo get the upper hand instead of taking him out.

 

6 hours ago, suzeecat said:

While I appreciate every detail that the writers, directors and producers painstakingly include, I was wondering, and still do, why we had to put up with Mike stargazing with his granddaughter.  They move so slowly through scenes like this, like we're supposed to be watching v-e-r-r-y closely for clues, but I think this was just a distraction.  Or, do they call it a "red herring"?

Lalo gets out of every situation so easily that even Batman would be jealous.

I know we are probably just waiting for a showdown between him and Gus but I am getting sick of cutting to him and getting out of the main story about Kim and Jimmy.

I understand why Mike is a fascinating character and likable despite all the terrible things he does.

However, tonight the phone call to his granddaughter was cloying to me for some reason that I can not explain.

She was just a little too precious with her "Grampa, really truly I see the stars" and I could only think about him leaving her alone on the playground to skip town when his lawyer (not Saul) was caught putting money in the safety deposit boxes.

 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

The Sandpiper clients didn't come to Kim for advice. Yet Kim has no problem deciding what's best for them.

Meanwhile Howard assures them that “This isn’t about money, it’s about people” and that he “wants to live in a world where people can trust each other,” and talks about how the delay is all meant to stick it to big corporations and champion the little guy. 🤣🤣🤣 Sure, Howard. 

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

This is such an interesting point about "rooting." These creators are so, so good at exploiting that audience desire: They get us engaged with a heist-plot or con-plot minutiae, and, momentarily distracted from the morally outrageous outcome, we "root" for the cleverness of the plan.

The most extreme version of this that I recall was BB's "Dead Freight," where we were all totally transfixed by and rooting for these criminals to pull off their methylamine train robbery.

Yep. It's similar to the experience of watching a Hitchcock film. We're feeling Norman Bates's anxiety when it appears the car won't entirely submerge in the bog. We're put there with the killers in Strangers on a Train and Frenzy when they're trying to retrieve an incriminating object, or with the protagonist of Marnie when she's robbing the office and her shoe is about to fall out of her pocket.

[whydoiwatchtv]

I don’t want to go too far off topic but I’d like to thank the people here that help fill me in. I’d be lost without you. The recall that some have right down to the episode of BB and I’m still going “Is he a Salamanca?” All the names, plot holes, Easter eggs and details I missed you discuss. You make the show so much more enjoyable. Thank you so much! 

[qtpye]

I just found out that the opening shot with Howard is actually in his guest house which supports the theory that Howard's marriage is in trouble.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Most of us are writing about Kim's rage and lashing out.  Unquestionably, the case can be made that anger is her prime motivation.

How about self-sabotage?  Does she really believe she is "good?"  Does she see herself as "bad?"  The little Kim in that car ride after the shoplifting incident looked more confused than anything, to me.  Was she thinking about her Mom's gushing about her criminal daughter, or was she seriously confronting the possibility that in her core, she broke bad as a reflection of her true self:  Bad?

She has certainly demonstrated confidence as a corporate attorney.  Her rational self most certainly understands she has a talent for such.  But, to what end?  Good?  Or, does she see her deepest self as evil for enjoying the con so much and too often representing monied and callous entities?  If it's the latter, a significant piece of her just might decide she must be stopped!  Hello, sabotage.

On another subject...the more I consider it, the more I do not trust the complete lack of PI reporting.  Not one, but at least two additional spies don't see fit to go to their clients with Saul's anomalous behavior?  Would Howard have possibly ended surveillance just as the juicy stuff was beginning?  I hope TPTB will address this gaping hole.

 

 

 

[Constantinople]

7 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Meanwhile Howard assures them that “This isn’t about money, it’s about people” and that he “wants to live in a world where people can trust each other,” and talks about how the delay is all meant to stick it to big corporations and champion the little guy. 🤣🤣🤣 Sure, Howard. 

 

I don't see Kim subjecting herself to the plaintiffs' scrutiny the way Howard is. She's actually trying to manipulate that scrutiny to defraud the Sandpiper plaintiffs from making an informed choice while remaining unaccountable. At least when Howard offered Kim unsolicited advice, he did so face to face.

And Kim and Howard both know the only way the Sandpiper plaintiffs will be made financially whole is if they are awarded, or Sandpiper agrees to pay, more than the money Sandpiper took from them. But Kim doesn't care any more than she cares about "...the obscene inequity in our cutthroat capitalist world" of which Sandpiper is a symbol. Hence her U-turn at the end of the episode when she chose enacting some ill-defined kind of revenge against Howard over the people she could help via the Jackson Mercer foundation.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

However, tonight the phone call to his granddaughter was cloying to me for some reason that I can not explain.

She was just a little too precious with her "Grampa, really truly I see the stars" and I could only think about him leaving her alone on the playground to skip town when his lawyer (not Saul) was caught putting money in the safety deposit boxes.

 

I think of that scene, too.  He really had no choice but to run and draw the fire away from her, but it left me worried about how she got home and where her thoughts of Pop-pop went for the rest of her life.

The stargazing scene went over my twee threshold, too.  It's such an overused symbol of 'sensitive people sharing wonder at the universe.'  I had one of those telescopes for my son and it was always a pain to set-up and focus, on the rare nights that were clear enough to see, so I was sorry for the DiL and wondering if Kayleigh wasn't getting to the age where she had projects to do and friends to text after dinner and homework. 

In a show that is so perfectly written and so realistic about everyday lives, it seemed like a rare miss.  That and Kim wearing a strapless push-up bra to bed. 

[PeterPirate]

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

- drawing of magnifier glass (crossed out)

I heard a theory the magnifying glass refers to Howard's PI, and they have bought him out.  Which makes sense because the PI needs to be the one who delivers the fake photos to Howard.  

It would also explain why Kim and Saul felt free to have their late picnic on Omaha Beach, and also why the PI did not inform Howard about their visit to the vet.  

 

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

- drawing of violin

It's a "Viola".

Edited May 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Rickster]

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

I just found out that the opening shot with Howard is actually in his guest house which supports the theory that Howard's marriage is in trouble.

That helps explain some of the odd discussion about mattresses with his wife (I just assumed they were sleeping in separate bedrooms).

[PeterPirate]

Oh, yeah.  I just took a look and Howard walks out of a separate structure, put his jacket into the Namastemobile, and then walks into the main house.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[SailorGirl]

I read the opening scene differently in that Kim tried, as teenagers are wont to do, stealing the necklace and earrings but got caught. Her mother didn't know (as most parents don't), got called in, we saw the scene, and then the guard/manager walked Kim out. I thought the mother saw the manager being distracted by Kim as an opportunity to provide something for her daughter she might not otherwise have been able to and snagged the necklace/earring set. 

That's why i interpreted the Kim holding her mother's hand scene (because she did that prior to her mother giving her the necklace/earrings), as Kim reaching out to her mom as thanks for getting her out of the situation -- like a moment of "wow, my mom does care about me" kind of thing. 

I thought Kim being quiet in the car was her processing/realizing that her mistake of shoplifting is what got her mother to show she cared about Kim, making Kim wonder if this was how parents show their love for their kids. 

But, most reviews I've read and what many of you have said (and I am going to listen to the insider podcast today to see what they confirm), is that it was in fact a mother/daughter team con -- maybe the first one and Kim in the car was processing what that meant in terms of equating love with cons . . . 

[SimplexFish]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

I know we are probably just waiting for a showdown between him and Gus but I am getting sick of cutting to him and getting out of the main story about Kim and Jimmy.

It's just the opposite for me...I'm tired of the Kim and Jimmy story dragging on and want them to cut to the chase, I personally want more Lalo and the usual excitement that follows his story line...

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I heard a theory the magnifying glass refers to Howard's PI, and they have bought him out.  Which makes sense because the PI needs to be the one who delivers the fake photos to Howard.  

Interesting. I'm not sure I buy into that theory, but I was wondering how Jimmy's surveillance photos (that his video team took) would get into Howard's hands. The size of the photos look like the ones Howard's PI took, but I just don't know about Jimmy bribing that PI. Of course it's possible, but I guess I just don't like the ease of it. Also, I'm assuming that Jimmy and Kim know that Howard is having him surveilled. Not sure how they'd know, except that they KNOW Howard and anticipate the steps he would take after Jimmy's ham-handed scamming.

Quote

It's a "Viola".

Ah! Cute. That makes sense. Thanks.

 

20 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

I read the opening scene differently in that Kim tried, as teenagers are wont to do, stealing the necklace and earrings but got caught. Her mother didn't know (as most parents don't), got called in, we saw the scene, and then the guard/manager walked Kim out. I thought the mother saw the manager being distracted by Kim as an opportunity to provide something for her daughter she might not otherwise have been able to and snagged the necklace/earring set. 

That's why i interpreted the Kim holding her mother's hand scene (because she did that prior to her mother giving her the necklace/earrings), as Kim reaching out to her mom as thanks for getting her out of the situation -- like a moment of "wow, my mom does care about me" kind of thing. 

I thought Kim being quiet in the car was her processing/realizing that her mistake of shoplifting is what got her mother to show she cared about Kim, making Kim wonder if this was how parents show their love for their kids. 

But, most reviews I've read and what many of you have said (and I am going to listen to the insider podcast today to see what they confirm), is that it was in fact a mother/daughter team con -- maybe the first one and Kim in the car was processing what that meant in terms of equating love with cons . . . 

I really don't see that Kim and her mother had teamed up to steal the necklace and trick the store manager. When they were alone in the car, Kim was obviously surprised by her mother's changed reaction to the situation, as well as that she had stolen the jewelry for her.

[Chaos Theory]

When it comes to Lalo no half measures.  

I know some people don’t like her but Kim has got to be the most fascinating character on the show simply because we don’t have her fate mapped out.  We see her going down bad choice road and why she makes the choices she makes even though they will lead to terrible outcomes.  Howard has always been a condescending jerk to her and I think the resentment has been bubbling inside her for years and Jimmy just gave her an excuse.     The scene with Howard and his wife was all kinds of empty and sad with Howard trying to make peace offerings but the wife rejecting them all.   

Edited May 18, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

It's just the opposite for me...I'm tired of the Kim and Jimmy story dragging on and want them to cut to the chase, I personally want more Lalo and the usual excitement that follows his story line...

Mike's interesting because he's conflicted, and possessed of normal human emotions. Gus has some interest, because we know he's capable of loving someone genuinely and profoundly, and it was witnessing the murder of the person he loved that transformed him into this outwardly calm person who is actually a vessel of airtight monumental rage. Lalo engages in a lot of action, but from what we have seen, he appears to be a typical sociopath, incapable of feeling remorse or genuine love. Now, people like that exist, especially in the criminal life, so it would be silly if this story didn't have such characters, and such characters can make for an interesting scene. I prefer such characters be used judiciously, however, because fundamentally I find them uninteresting, due to them having no inner lives; they simply want what they want, and try to take it. I'm fine with Lalo's role in the story, but really don't want him getting a bigger % of  screen time. 

[GustavMahler]

Unfortunately, for a show that is titled, Better Call Saul, I am finding Saul to be the least interesting and most boring part of this season.

Edited May 18, 2022 by GustavMahler

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

I just found out that the opening shot with Howard is actually in his guest house which supports the theory that Howard's marriage is in trouble.

I assumed he was in the guest room because the suits weren't in the closet.  Guest house works too, although I would think he'd have more space there.

4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

On another subject...the more I consider it, the more I do not trust the complete lack of PI reporting.  Not one, but at least two additional spies don't see fit to go to their clients with Saul's anomalous behavior?  Would Howard have possibly ended surveillance just as the juicy stuff was beginning?  I hope TPTB will address this gaping hole.

Yeah. I've been wondering about the PI too.  Not having pictures or reporting of Jimmy going into the vet's office?  That seems strange.

I guess Jimmy could have paid off the PI but Howard has more money.  I'm assuming he's hiring someone with a stellar reputation and I doubt Jimmy could pay enough for the PI to put his reputation on the line.

If Jimmy knew that the PI was following him, wouldn't he have tried to stage the picture so the PI could catch him instead of taking them himself? 

I think the plan is to turn then in anonymously but I don't know.  This is a very convoluted plot.

 

[Bannon]

27 minutes ago, GustavMahler said:

Unfortunately, for a show that is titled, Better Call Saul, I am finding Saul to be the least interesting and most boring part of this season.

His journey from Jimmy to Saul is pretty much over; just waiting to see how the relationship with Kim is severed, to turn the final page.

[PeterPirate]

I have been trying to figure out Kim's sullenness at the end of the opener.  Applying the take-what-is-given approach, here is what I have:  Kim shoplifts on her own for attention.  Kim's mother shows up and acts like a good, tough-love mom is supposed to act.  That is why Kim takes her mother's hand outside the store.  But then it turns out that mom faked her sternness, even to the point of doing her own shoplifting.  Kim realizes that her mom is still, well, not a good person, and that is why she becomes silent, sad, and looks out the window.  The reflex is indeed a lonely child.  

That gets me wondering more about Kim's backstory with her father, for whom Ice Station Zebra is--present tense--his favorite movie.  Kim, after all, wants to be Atticus Finch.  Maybe she got that from her dad, because she most assuredly did not get it from her mom.  

And now I am thinking that Kim's interaction with her mom in the opener parallels her associating with Jimmy.  She wanted an honest mom but got a dishonest one.  She wanted an honest life partner--someone who would help her to be the real-life Atticus Finch--but chose Mr. Chimpwithamachinegun.  And instead of leaving him, trying to reform him, or even just talking with him about his criminal antics, she sticks with him, stays silent about what he does, and even becomes Mrs. Chimpwithamachinegun.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[SimplexFish]

I wonder if Howard's PI could actually be a Saul informant to begin with.?

Edited May 18, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I have been trying to figure out Kim's sullenness at the end of the opener.  Applying the take-what-is-given approach, here is what I have:  Kim shoplifts on her own for attention.  Kim's mother shows up and acts like a good, tough-love mom is supposed to act.  That is why Kim takes her mother's hand outside the store.  But then it turns out that mom faked her sternness, even to the point of doing her own shoplifting.  Kim realizes that her mom is still, well, not a good person, and that is why she becomes silent, sad, and looks out the window.  The reflex is indeed a lonely child.  

That gets me wondering more about Kim's backstory with her father, for whom Ice Station Zebra is--present tense--his favorite movie.  Kim, after all, wants to be Atticus Finch.  Maybe she got that from her dad, because she most assuredly did not get it from her mom.  

That's how I saw that scene. It certainly seems to me that there is more of Kim's backstory to be told, but I also understand why G&G would want to maintain some ambiguity.

[Eulipian 5k]

15 hours ago, Arkay said:

Kim’s mother didn’t think she had it in her, and Howard and Cliff have no idea she has this in her, either.

I think this is the takeaway from that entire scene; that we are finding out that she had that in her all along. That showing up now as the vindictiveness, ingratitude, and envy displayed towards Howard. Don't put this on Jimmy.

[Penman61]

33 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I think this is the takeaway from that entire scene; that we are finding out that she had that in her all along. That showing up now as the vindictiveness, ingratitude, and envy displayed towards Howard. Don't put this on Jimmy.

What is "that" in the scene? A teenager shoplifting? I have no data, but I'm guessing maybe at least 1/3 of all teenagers have shoplifted. Maybe more?

What I think the scene is showing instead is how a fairly normal young teenage impulse--to get away with petty theft--can be molded into something complicated and confusing with Bad Parenting.

And adult Kim is very, very confused indeed.

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

I understand why Mike is a fascinating character and likable despite all the terrible things he does.

However, tonight the phone call to his granddaughter was cloying to me for some reason that I can not explain.

She was just a little too precious with her "Grampa, really truly I see the stars" and I could only think about him leaving her alone on the playground to skip town when his lawyer (not Saul) was caught putting money in the safety deposit boxes.

 

It's so much worse than Grampa, though. It's Pop-pop. That's the nails on the chalkboard for me.

Edited May 18, 2022 by sistermagpie

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

I assumed he was in the guest room because the suits weren't in the closet.  Guest house works too, although I would think he'd have more space there.

Yes, his clothes are hanging up on a rolling garment rack. I like that he has a clothes presser and that fancy shoe polisher. 

[SimplexFish]

17 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Yes, his clothes are hanging up on a rolling garment rack. I like that he has a clothes presser and that fancy shoe polisher. 

Would ya expect anything less from Howard? 😃😃

[Chaos Theory]

You ever meet that person who no matter what they do they never get the recognition  they want or deserve?  They work hard get straight As and no one cares.  They bust their butt to bring in clients and someone else gets the credit.  They shop lift and it gets laughed off.    Then they become friends with someone who maybe one of their bosses has a long time grudge with and suddenly for the first time in their lives a real true reaction.   Yes it’s a bad one and they are punished but it still probably the first time something happens.   But then the seething hated that has been building inside starts bubbling over because a life where nothing you did really mattered until that moment and suddenly everything in your life….in Kim’s life becomes about the moment she became friends with Jimmy and Howard punished her for it.    

I think for Kim it is as simple as that.   

[Eulipian 5k]

Since his father's demise and Chuck's "illness", Howard has shepherded HHM to maintain its high standing in ABQ's law community. He punished Kim for bringing embarrassment to HHM. As someone on a partner track she should have reported anything she knew about Jimmy's guerilla TV ads,(she actually knew little). At no time has he been shown to put himself above HHM's interests; even with regards to Kim. (He bought out Chuck because he sued HHM). She couldn't see that, and took personal animus at Howard for how he treated her. People seem to feel Howard is a jerk because he was a lawyer's son who successfully grew his daddie's Law Firm, that's unfair. Howard didn't cheat or kill anyone.

Howard AND Gus are both shown as meticulous people in their personal lives, manners, and clothing, so are a lot of people who aren't jerks.

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

What is "that" in the scene? A teenager shoplifting? I have no data, but I'm guessing maybe at least 1/3 of all teenagers have shoplifted. Maybe more?

For a goody two shoes girl who would walk home instead of riding in a car with a drunk mom, or gets all A's, getting caught shoplifting is a big "that in you" for Mama Kim, at least it's all we've seen of lil Kim.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Eulipian 5k
not The Lil Kim

[Penman61]

6 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

For a goody two shoes girl who would walk home instead of riding in a car with a drunk mom, or gets all A's, getting caught shoplifting is a big "that in you" for Mama Kim, at least it's all we've seen of lil Kim.

Absolutely shoplifting is a big deal to young Kim. I think it's a pretty big deal--at least the first time--for any kid. 

The question is how the parents (and/or society) react, and Kim's mom's reaction is CONFUSING for Kim. And since the sequence is bookended in this episode with Kim's u-turn into Her Own Worst Enemy, I think we're meant to see mom's confusing/conflicting shoplifting response as formative for Kim, and in a bad bad way. 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Since his father's demise and Chuck's "illness", Howard has shepherded HHM to maintain its high standing in ABQ's law community. He punished Kim for bringing embarrassment to HHM. As someone on a partner track she should have reported anything she knew about Jimmy's guerilla TV ads,(she actually knew little). At no time has he been shown to put himself above HHM's interests; even with regards to Kim. (He bought out Chuck because he sued HHM). She couldn't see that, and took personal animus at Howard for how he treated her. People seem to feel Howard is a jerk because he was a lawyer's son who successfully grew his daddie's Law Firm, that's unfair. Howard didn't cheat or kill anyone.

Howard AND Gus are both shown as meticulous people in their personal lives, manners, and clothing, so are a lot of people who aren't jerks.

That embarrassment delivered a  mountain of cash to HHM, and a mountain of cash to the firm where he engaged in the ridiculous behavior. After getting punished for this, Kim then proceeds to deliver yet another mountain of cash to HHM. Howard's idiotic response? Punish Kim again! That's before we get to the fact that Howard's management of his relationship with the other senior partner, obviously in the throes of severe mental illness, was cowardly, entirely unethical,  and inept, meaning Howard wasn't actually earning his very considerable compensation, but instead was freeloading off the hard work of other people.

Private law firms are operated for pursuit of profit, within the legal and ethical constraints of the profession. Period. Temporary feelings of embarrassment are trivia, relative to large sums of money. Frankly, prior to Howard's reformation in response to Jimmy's ass chewing, Schweikert is the only lawyer-manager who has been portrayed as demonstrating competence and discipline consistent with the compensation being received. Cliff Davis' response to Jimmy running an unauthorized, yet entirely ethical, and most importantly, highly effective commercial, was also ridiculously inept. The art of management is to extract value from that which people do well, while avoiding the pitfalls of what people don't do well. Jimmy's sometimes an impulsive dope who you don't want associated with your brand. He's also a guy with an extreme capacity for work, with talent that can deliver giant sums of money. The point is to get him away from your brand, while still having him deliver the cash. It's a solvable problem, assuming management isn't coasting along, heads up their ass, collecting large salaries they really aren't earning. One of the subplots I've loved in this show is how the various businesses, moral and immoral, legal and illegal are managed. 

Howard's no villain, especially compared to many of the other characters. He was, however, for most of the story, an entitled, inept, sometimes unethical, lazy, cowardly, ingrate, entirely worthy of towering, long-standing, contempt. That he has evolved into something considerably better is good writing. People are capable of change, despite all protestations to the contrary.

 

 

[PeterPirate]

Mesa Verse was worth "a quarter million in billings".  

I try to incorporate the writers' intent into my thinking, and I don't believe the writers intended to have people interpret Howard as negatively as Bannon does.  Otherwise they would have had him do a lot of things that were worse than deferring to Chuck and banishing Kim to the Cornfield.  

As always, mileage varies.  

[Bannon]

Just now, PeterPirate said:

Mesa Verse was worth "a quarter million in billings".  

I try to incorporate the writers' intent into my thinking, and I don't believe the writers intended to have people interpret Howard as negatively as Bannon does.  Otherwise they would have had him do a lot of things that were worse than deferring to Chuck and banishing Kim to the Cornfield.  

As always, mileage varies.  

That was just for the initial work, iirc. Ongoing, the reason why Howard and Chuck were so thrilled with getting Mesa Verde was that it was a cash flow monster that would be growing for years.

I do disagree about the writer's intent. I think they wanted us to see Howard very negatively, then put him on an arc of self improvement (and having Jimmy's Come to Jesus speech to Howard be a spark was brilliant writing), as Kim allowed her understandable contempt mushroom into wholly irrational, self destructive hatred. The juxtaposition is striking, and the self-destructive aspect of Kim's hatred of Howard is consistent with Jimmy's self destructive hatred of Howard ( although Jimmy is more self aware), Gus's self destructive hatred of Hector, and maybe even Mike's self destructive hatred of himself.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

I do disagree about the writer's intent. I think they wanted us to see Howard very negatively, 

Really?  Tell what Howard did in Season 1 that would establish him as unlikeable.  From my point of view the only thing he did wrong was send Kim to the Cornfield when it wasn't her fault the Kettlemans fired HHM.  But that was more than balanced by Howard spilling the tea about how it was Chuck who kept Jimmy from joining the firm.  A true jerk would have blown up at Kim for questioning his authority and sent her back to the Cornfield.   

Edited May 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Really?  Tell what Howard did in Season 1 that would establish him as unlikeable.  From my point of view the only thing he did wrong was send Kim to the Cornfield when it wasn't her fault the Kettlemans fired HHM.  But that was more than balanced by Howard spilling the tea about how it was Chuck who kept Jimmy from joining the firm.  A true jerk would have blown up at Kim for questioning her authority and sent her back to the Cornfield.   

I don't know what to tell you. If I was sent to one of the lowest circles of hell in a firm, because my intimate partner, who delivered a mountain of cash to the firm, made an entirely ethical, highly effective, but unauthorized commercial, for another firm I recommended hire him (giving them a cut of the mountain of cash), then, after I personally delivered yet another mountain of cash to the firm, I was kept in the lower circle of hell, I'd have the deepest possible contempt for the person who did that. Especially if I knew he did this while clearly abdicating his responsibility to the firm, with regard to the other senior partner suffering from obviously severe mental illness.

If I'm a member of the audience who can put myself in Kim's heels, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that was the writer's intent.

 

[PeterPirate]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I don't know what to tell you. If I was sent to one of the lowest circles of hell in a firm, because my intimate partner, who delivered a mountain of cash to the firm, made an entirely ethical, highly effective, but unauthorized commercial, for another firm I recommended hire him (giving them a cut of the mountain of cash), then, after I personally delivered yet another mountain of cash to the firm, I was kept in the lower circle of hell, I'd have the deepest possible contempt for the person who did that. Especially if I knew he did this while clearly abdicating his responsibility to the firm, with regard to the other senior partner suffering from obviously severe mental illness.

If I'm a member of the audience who can put myself in Kim's heels, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that was the writer's intent.

 

That took place in Season 2.  Your thesis is that the writers wanted to establish Howard as unlikeable and then rehabilitate him over time.  I'm asking you what Howard did in Season 1 that supports that thesis.    

I took Howard as mostly non-descript during the first season.  Sure he was a senior partner at a law firm, with all that entails.  But putting that aside I thought he was on balance pretty neutral and served as a straight man for Jimmy's hijinks.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

That took place in Season 2.  Your thesis is that the writers wanted to establish Howard as unlikeable and then rehabilitate him over time.  I'm asking you what Howard did in Season 1 that supports that thesis.    

I took Howard as mostly non-descript during the first season.  Sure he was a senior partner at a law firm, with all that entails.  But putting that aside I thought he was on balance pretty neutral and served as a straight man for Jimmy's hijinks.  

I don't understand why the writer's intended descent into unlikeability, prior to later rehabilitation, has to start in season one, instead of season two.

[PeterPirate]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I don't understand why the writer's intended descent into unlikeability, prior to later rehabilitation, has to start in season one, instead of season two.

It doesn't.  But if that is your thesis, you have not articulated it before.  

Banishing Kim to the Cornfield for the second time was pretty harsh, but at the same time he some things in Season 2 that were positive, notably forgiving Kim's debt to the firm.  I can't see why the writers had Howard do that if they intended for the audience to dislike him. 

[SimplexFish]

I wish that the posts on here were numbered...

[Bannon]

31 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

It doesn't.  But if that is your thesis, you have not articulated it before.  

Banishing Kim to the Cornfield for the second time was pretty harsh, but at the same time he some things in Season 2 that were positive, notably forgiving Kim's debt to the firm.  I can't see why the writers had Howard do that if they intended for the audience to dislike him. 

My only point was I think the writers intended to make Howard unlikeable prior to rehabbing him, as Kim's rational contempt for him grew into an irrational,.self destructive, and unethical hatred. Whether they intended to make Howard unlikeable in season one or two is not relevant to my point.

You and I simply see Howard's season 2 behavior differently. I see it as utterly despicable, even if it isn't nearly as bad as some of the other misbehavior on this show. You don't.

(edit) To clarify, yes some of Howard's behavior, like forgiving the loan, was commendable, although I think there was some egotism and condescension in that. These writers nearly always avoid making characters one dimensional, with the exception of the Hectors and Tucos. I still can't help but think, when I watch the scene where Howard telks Kim she's going back to doc review, after delivering Mesa Verde, that the writers want to portray Howard in a contemptible light.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bannon

[gallimaufry]

On another note, I'm intrigued by where the black book goes.  The indication was that the vet would be willing to sell it (and presumably Jimmy will soon be in a position to buy it).  I wonder what happens to it ultimately though.  Is it possible it ends up with Kim?

Another interesting aspect of that scene was how Jimmy couldn't understand how he could walk away from that passive income and Kim says something like "he knows what he wants."  And yet, at the end, Kim doesn't walk (or drive) away.

I'm also still intrigued by why they chose Casper of all the Germans to come back but I'm glad they did.  His "he was worth fifty of you" showed his closeness to Werner and seemingly his goodness so I certainly felt more tense for him.

It's kind of crazy that we're now teetering on the half-way mark through the last season and the Saul/Mike plots are still practically on different planets.  There have been hints at a crossover, and obviously the Kim/Mike scene was a major step, but I always assumed they'd eventually dovetail the storylines.

Also didn't realise that Mrs Hamlin is Sandrine Holt who was Martha Logan's aide on "24".  As bad as she came across, I wonder what Howard actually did to warrant Howard wanting to offer a "peace" sign.

[Gobi]

The Vet’s black book was one of the items collected at Saul’s house in the season opener. 

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

On another note, I'm intrigued by where the black book goes.  The indication was that the vet would be willing to sell it (and presumably Jimmy will soon be in a position to buy it).  I wonder what happens to it ultimately though.  Is it possible it ends up with Kim?

Another interesting aspect of that scene was how Jimmy couldn't understand how he could walk away from that passive income and Kim says something like "he knows what he wants."  And yet, at the end, Kim doesn't walk (or drive) away.

I'm also still intrigued by why they chose Casper of all the Germans to come back but I'm glad they did.  His "he was worth fifty of you" showed his closeness to Werner and seemingly his goodness so I certainly felt more tense for him.

It's kind of crazy that we're now teetering on the half-way mark through the last season and the Saul/Mike plots are still practically on different planets.  There have been hints at a crossover, and obviously the Kim/Mike scene was a major step, but I always assumed they'd eventually dovetail the storylines.

Also didn't realise that Mrs Hamlin is Sandrine Holt who was Martha Logan's aide on "24".  As bad as she came across, I wonder what Howard actually did to warrant Howard wanting to offer a "peace" sign.

I think there's a chance that Casper's body, showing obvious signs of torture, will be found, and Mike, having tabs kept on the Germans, will learn of it. The fact that it was Casper, the guy who called out Mike, with regard to Werner, will weigh on Mike's conscience. As if it already doesn't weigh enough.

[qtpye]

One of the most important episodes of last season was Bad Choice Road.

Here we see Kim literally U-turn from the good road to the bad road.

She had the chance to fund her pro-bono law firm and she ran away from it, which was heartbreaking.  It is what she had been working for and helping the less fortunate makes her truly happy.

I guess there is a possibility that she can reschedule her interview but opportunities like this do not necessarily come twice.

[Ellaria]

11 minutes ago, qtpye said:

One of the most important episodes of last season was Bad Choice Road.

Here we see Kim literally U-turn from the good road to the bad road.

She had the chance to fund her pro-bono law firm and she ran away from it, which was heartbreaking.  It is what she had been working for and helping the less fortunate makes her truly happy.

I guess there is a possibility that she can reschedule her interview but opportunities like this do not necessarily come twice.

Yes…she literally turns onto the wrong road. She turns away from an incredible opportunity to do the work that she (supposedly) loves while earning a respectable salary.

I assume that this opportunity will not come again. She did not turn away because of a legitimate emergency such as a family health crisis. She turned away to create chaos and cause damage. Regardless of the outcome of their plan, she should not get another chance at this opportunity.

Kim is smart; she made this choice with her eyes wide open. She will be the architect of her own downfall.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[Penman61]

31 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Also didn't realise that Mrs Hamlin is Sandrine Holt who was Martha Logan's aide on "24".  As bad as she came across, I wonder what Howard actually did to warrant Howard wanting to offer a "peace" sign.

I thought Mrs. Hamlin came across as civil, polite, but definitely enforcing interactive boundaries. (A lot of how we see both of them will depend on what we find out about why they're separated. She may have very, very good reasons for keeping the walls up.)

Anyone who's had to live with an SO during a separation prior to a divorce knows this particular stance very, very well. :(

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, qtpye said:

One of the most important episodes of last season was Bad Choice Road.

Here we see Kim literally U-turn from the good road to the bad road.

She had the chance to fund her pro-bono law firm and she ran away from it, which was heartbreaking.  It is what she had been working for and helping the less fortunate makes her truly happy.

I guess there is a possibility that she can reschedule her interview but opportunities like this do not necessarily come twice.

 

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes…she literally turns onto the wrong road. She turns away from an incredible opportunity to do the work that she (supposedly) loves while earning a respectable salary.

I assume that this opportunity will not come again. She did not turn away because of a legitimate emergency such as a family health crisis. She turned away to create chaos and cause damage. Regardless of the outcome of their plan, she should not get another chance at this opportunity.

Kim is smart; she made this choice with her eyes wide open. She will be the architect of her own downfall.

No wonder she understood the vet so much. JImmy/Saul couldn't understand not keeping the side job that was bringing in lots of money. Kim said the guy knew what he wanted. In that moment, maybe, Kim knew what she wanted and the pro bono work was the side hustle, not the animals.

Or she's so in denial that she hasn't even admitted to herself that that's what she was doing. But in that moment it seemed like it was played as a clear "She knows what she wants" moment.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes…she literally turns onto the wrong road. She turns away from an incredible opportunity to do the work that she (supposedly) loves while earning a respectable salary.

I assume that this opportunity will not come again. She did not turn away because of a legitimate emergency such as a family health crisis. She turned away to create chaos and cause damage. Regardless of the outcome of their plan, she should not get another chance at this opportunity.

Kim is smart; she made this choice with her eyes wide open. She will be the architect of her own downfall.

It's the saddest damned television show I've ever watched. Really remarkable that it's also made me laugh out loud so often. I think the scene where Jimmy explains "squat cobbler" to the APD detectives is among the funniest things I've ever watched on television.

8 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I thought Mrs. Hamlin came across as civil, polite, but definitely enforcing interactive boundaries. (A lot of how we see both of them will depend on what we find out about why they're separated. She may have very, very good reasons for keeping the walls up.)

Anyone who's had to live with an SO during a separation prior to a divorce knows this particular stance very, very well. :(

Another heartbreaking scene.....

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I thought Mrs. Hamlin came across as civil, polite, but definitely enforcing interactive boundaries. (A lot of how we see both of them will depend on what we find out about why they're separated. She may have very, very good reasons for keeping the walls up.)

Anyone who's had to live with an SO during a separation prior to a divorce knows this particular stance very, very well. :(

If I were to guess, I'd say Howard allowed his ego to compel him to cheat on his wife, and then, when he started to feel bad about it, he lacked the fortitude to end the cheating, and deal with his guilt on his own, instead convincing himself it was more noble to "share" the pain with the person he cheated on. That'd be consistent with his behavior in the wake of Chuck's death.