S06.E09: The Hill

[CountryGirl]

I'll go against the grain and say I don't feel manipulated by the writers whatsoever with trying to make me biased against Toby. And this coming from the least-reluctant of Kate fans, although seeing her evolution tonight made me nudge a little closer to her corner.

Because the Toby from last night, you know, the one who lied to his wife about the LA job offer, which was blatantly going against their agreement that he would look for work in LA asap, and this after he all but accepted the SF job without giving Kate the very pertinent detail that it would be in SF, the one who also lied by omission about what the LA salary was, is the same Toby who has shown a consistent pattern of not telling Kate the truth for a good portion of their relationship.

The seeds for their discord have been sown ever since S1 where Kate is now learning, 5 years later (and perhaps 5 years too late I would wager) that the Toby she met, the Toby she fell in love with, was not the real him. That is was all an act to hide his deep depression over his previous divorce and weight gain. To be told by your husband that what she thought was real was a "coping mechanism?" WTF is she supposed to do with that? Of course, people can change and grow over the course of their lives but to be told everything about their early life together, at least as far as he was concerned, wasn't real...I can't see where Kate should roll with it as she had with so many things Toby-centric in their relationship (more on that in a moment). There is a very clear difference between her knowing he struggled with depression (like she didn't?) and knowing that he carved out this entire other persona. It would make her question everything about their relationship and how much was real and whether this Toby, the real Toby really loves her as she felt that Toby did.

This whole trip was Kate extending an olive branch of sorts to Toby after their disastrous Thanksgiving and she clearly said she would come to SF for a weekend so they can start thinking about whether it's a good idea for her and the kids to relocate. Not knowing Toby will take this and run with it as a fait accompli that she will move and be scouting out houses to narrow it down to the particular one that he is clearly ready to sign on the dotted line for and getting pre-approved for loans he is that sure of himself and all she knows is she's coming up for a weekend to dip her toe in SF waters.

Not be pressured into buying a house on the spot. Manipulative to the say the least and I don't blame Kate for being pissed and feeling put on the spot, especially in front of a realtor, whom I sure had no idea the wife was not only not on board but completely in the dark. Yet she trudged along anyway to look at the possible space for her mother and Miguel when visiting. 

There is also the looming specter of his ever-encroaching work that Toby doesn't seem to mind at all; in fact, he thrives on it, and that's fine if you are single and childless. But he's neither of these things. I am a senior director at my organization, reporting to the VP and dotted line to the CEO, and I can count on one hand the number of times in two decades where I've had to push my personal life aside for my professional one. The reason for that is because I set boundaries long ago and stuck to them. Clearly, Toby has none, at least where his job is concerned, and dude, this isn't the 1950s. TPTB should understand he has a life outside work. If they can't or won't, then I question why he would want to stay there. That he does, knowing their "always on" expectations, speaks volumes to me.

Speaking of work, Kate couldn't even leave her house in LA before learning Toby wouldn't even be able to pick her up at the airport. Then he takes a work call before the sweat is even dry on their bodies after having sex. Some afterglow. I mean, his whole itinerary, sex included, feels like boxes he can check off and fit in around his main priority in life, work. Even his days back in LA are being constantly interrupted with work, so what, exactly, would be different about her being in SF vs LA? He's going to be just as present (read: absent even when physically present) as he is now and she's alone with the kids all day while he's getting to live his best life. His snitting about her Face-timing the kids when he was already on yet, you guessed it, another work call was all kinds of hypocritical.

Case in point, part of their big evening out is spending time at his boss' cocktail party, which, your wife is in town for the weekend, to test out the possibility of living in SF, did you really need to go to this party, this weekend? Of course, at said party is where Kate finds out Toby has been lying to her about receiving another job offer a few weeks prior. Sorry, but I don't believe him in the slightest when he said the offer was laughably bad. Considering his current salary, position, and that he's doing well, I'm gonna go out on the tiniest of limbs here and say I'll bet it was competitive as heck with his current set-up and with the bonus of being back in LA. And he left Kate in a position to be blind-sided by his boss, a stranger, who knew things about Toby that Kate, his wife, had no idea of because, once again, he's keeping shit from her. Like she is a fucking afterthought. 

Then, of course, we have their big blow-up, which honestly has been a long time coming and I will say rang very realistic to me. Because for all of Toby's being horrified at Kate's longing for "Old Toby," something tells me he misses "Old Kate", too. Who sat around, all depressed, with no plans, no vision, and looking to him to be her everything. The "Old Kate" would have moved to SF the second he mentioned the job, but "New Kate" has carved out her own life and vision of her future now, which transcends her job at the school and is so much bigger than that as she navigates the parenting of two young children, one special-needs, mostly on her own, maintaining friendships, and coping with a mother living on borrowed time, especially from a mental capacity perspective. 

He expects her to embrace all of the changes in him, but I'm not sure he is willing to do the same, including his "pffting" of her job because it's only part-time and doesn't bring in the income his does. Nevermind that it's the first job where she felt truly fulfilled and happy (huh, that sounds familiar). And speaking of money, while the COL in both cities is definitely well beyond my current means, SF is, overall, nearly 40% higher COL, with the median home price over half a million higher. All those items Toby was insistent Jack needed (which what he and any kid need most are two involved, caring parents) are gonna cost a heck of a lot more in SF. It also came off as condescending that he would list all these things out to Kate like she's some idiot instead of a very well-informed parent who lives with Jack day-to-day and who works with blind children of various ages at a school very in tune with their needs.

It's also overlooked that Kate working part-time means less time in day care for Jack and those costs, which are exorbitant, and will be that much higher in SF. So Kate should probably plan on quitting working at all so she can stay home full-time with the kids. So much for her dreams. He was equally dismissive and short-sighted regarding Jack and his routine. Establishing routines at a young age, especially with Jack's needs, is key to his growth and development and Kate has done all the heavy lifting there. But Toby doesn't "see" the hard work she has done to help Jack learn to be a bit more independent with walking to the park and other neighborhood activities. Does he think that happened overnight? I'm sure it took weeks, if not months, to teach him their park routine, but nope, let's just scrap that and start over. It also conveniently erases her worth and value and the work that she does as the sole full-time parent of their children.

His ultimatum at the end of the episode had me raging. No, you do not get to unilaterally decide, much less attempt to dictate where your wife and kids live. Bread-winner or not. But this is the same Toby who already went ahead and made major changes in his life without her.

Of course, it was good that he took his health into his own hands and he lost the weight and got healthy (all of that is to be applauded), but the way he went about it, sneaking around, literally hiding his weight loss, was not okay.

Then he upped the ante by looking outside his own marriage for validation, first commiserating with the CF group at large (and hanging out with them beyond gym time, leaving clueless Kate sitting at home with their infant son), then singling out Kara and having what I would call an emotional affair since he clearly kept their texts from Kate and even out and out lied that it was a group text, when it was not. And sorry, I consider those texts and that very inappropriate relationship an emotional affair as they were sharing confidences that should not be shared when one of them is married, some of which were clearly not favorable toward Kate given the exchange Kate found on his phone. 

Kate swept all of that under the rug and just accepted that he wasn't doing anything wrong when he absolutely was. Aside from the Kara situation, he was living this other life away from the house. He completely shut her out of all that, unilaterally deciding for her that she couldn't or wouldn't cope with the changes in him. Kind of like now. And lying to her throughout that whole process until she found him out. Kind of like now.

Ask a lot of couples that have experienced infidelity and many will tell you the cheating per se wasn't the marriage killer/ender but the lies. 

So I don't view this episode or this season as some sort of ham-fisted attempt by the writers to turn Toby into a mustache-twirling villain who is crushing Kate's soul. Quite the contrary, it's an ongoing pattern with Toby, through the latest lie about the LA job offer and the lie of omission by his not willing to share the salary information. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. 

And once trust is violated, it's very difficult to come back from that. Toby continuing to keep things from her has to be hugely triggering for Kate. I mean, the lies about the job being in SF, the latest job offer in LA. Those are not small lies. Are there ever?

As for Kate's climb up that hill, I was never prouder of her. I think her mother's words, to live her best life, and her decision to appoint Kate as her guardian in the event she outlives Miguel, vs Randall or Kevin, have validated her as a wife and a mother, something Kate has struggled with since giving birth to preemie Jack. For so much of Kate's life, she's been the background to other's foregrounds, her parents, her brothers, Kevin especially, and Toby, and now she is starting to realize it is okay to want things for herself and to ask for what she feels she deserves. 

Because my sense is that Kate is coming to the same realization that I am. That even if she and the kids did move to SF, the problems they have between them aren't going to magically go away because they are living in the same place.

This episode really showed Kate's evolution from clingy child to clueless, despondent teenager/young adult, with other episodes coloring in the late twenties/thirty-something Kate, who was content to put everyone else ahead of her, Kevin especially, to attach her star to theirs, and live vicariously. With Jack's arrival, I did see a change in Kate where she started to find her footing and a vision of herself and a self-worth that wasn't attached to anyone else. 

I think as she stood there on the top of the hill, which was a metaphor for so much more, she realized that she does have worth and value, but so much of that is tied to her family/support system and job. Which are in LA. While Toby feels the same about SF and I can understand it, but his approach is all wrong. I am reserving judgment, for now, as to Kate throwing her hat in the ring for the recent retiree's position as it remains to be seen if she keeps it a secret from Toby or if she would even get it. 

All in all, I found this episode to be a very painful, but realistic, interpretation of a marriage unraveling. I think they can have the life and happiness they've dreamed of, only, sadly, it isn't going to be with each other. 

[Jeddah]

9 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Because Toby didn't actually pull the trigger on the house.  He just arranged for Kate to see it.  Not the same thing at all, IMO.  No money spent, no commitment to purchase. Considering how easily Kate becomes offended/angered by things he does or doesn't do; I presume he didn't tell her in advance because 1. he hadn't committed to anything other than spending 10-15 minutes walking through the house and 2. If she knew in advance, she would most likely have gone off on him and refused to look at the house anyway.  He's married to a woman who is generally a pessimist who hates change and new things; I can see why he tries to avoid confronting her head-on.  It's another good reason that their marriage is doomed.

It was more than just showing her the house. He said he’d gotten pre-approved for a mortgage and discussed how much they could  sell their current house for. It’s a big deal to be preparing to sell the house your wife and children live in without checking with your wife.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I'll go against the grain and say I don't feel manipulated by the writers whatsoever with trying to make me biased against Toby. And this coming from the least-reluctant of Kate fans, although seeing her evolution tonight made me nudge a little closer to her corner.

Because the Toby from last night, you know, the one who lied to his wife about the LA job offer, which was blatantly going against their agreement that he would look for work in LA asap, and this after he all but accepted the SF job without giving Kate the very pertinent detail that it would be in SF, the one who also lied by omission about what the LA salary was, is the same Toby who has shown a consistent pattern of not telling Kate the truth for a good portion of relationship.

The seeds for their discord have been sown ever since S1 where Kate is now learning, 5 years later (and perhaps 5 years too late I would wager) that the Toby she met, the Toby she fell in love with, was not the real him. That is was all an act to hide his deep depression over his previous divorce and weight gain. To be told by your husband that that what she thought was real was a "coping mechanism?" WTF is she supposed to do with that? Of course, people can change and grow over the course of their lives but to be told everything about their early life together, at least as far as he was concerned, wasn't real...I can't see where Kate should roll with it as she had with so many things Toby-centric in their relationship (more on that in a moment). There is a very clear difference between her knowing he struggled with depression (like she didn't?) and knowing that he carved out this entire other persona. It would make her question everything about their relationship and how much was real and whether this Toby, the real Toby really loves her as she felt that Toby did.

This whole trip was Kate extending an olive branch of sorts to Toby after their disastrous Thanksgiving and she clearly said she would come to SF for a weekend so they can start thinking about whether it's a good idea for her and the kids to relocate. Not knowing Toby will take this and run with it as a fait accompli that she will move and be scouting out houses to narrow it down to the particular one that he is clearly ready to sign on the dotted line for and getting pre-approved for loans and all she knows is she's coming up for a weekend to dip her toe in SF waters. Not be pressured into buying a house on the spot. Manipulative to the say the least and I don't blame Kate for being pissed and feeling put on the spot, especially in front of a realtor, whom I sure had no idea the wife was not only not on board but completely in the dark. Yet she trudged along to look at the possible space for her mother and Miguel when visiting. 

There is also the looming specter of his ever-encroaching work that Toby doesn't seem to mind at all, in fact, he thrives on it, and that's fine if you are single and childless. But he's neither of these things. I am a senior director at my organization, reporting to the VP and dotted line to the CEO, and I can count on one hand the number of times in two decades where I've had to push my personal life aside for my professional one. The reason for that is because I set boundaries long ago and stuck to them. Clearly, Toby has none, at least where his job is concerned, and dude, this isn't the 1950s. TPTB should understand he has a life outside work. If they can't or won't, then I question why he would want to stay there. That he does, knowing their "always on" expectations, speaks volumes to me.

Speaking of work, Kate couldn't even leave her house in LA before learning Toby wouldn't even be able to pick her up at the airport. Then he takes a work call before the sweat is even dry on their bodies after having sex. Some afterglow. I mean, his whole itinerary, sex included, feels like boxes he can check off and fit in around his main priority in life, work. Even his days back in LA are being constantly interrupted with work, so what, exactly, would be different about her being in SF vs LA? He's going to be just as present (read: absent even when physically present) as he is now. His snitting about her Face-timing the kids when he was already on yet another work call was all kinds of hypocritical.

Case in point, part of their big evening out is spending time at his boss' cocktail, which, your wife is in town for the weekend, did you really need to go to this party, this weekend? Of course, at said party is where Kate finds out Toby has been lying to her about receiving another job offer a few weeks prior. Sorry, but I don't believe him in the slightest when he said the offer was laughably bad. Considering his current salary, position, and that he's doing well, I'm gonna go out on the tiniest of limbs here and say I'll bet it was competitive as heck with his current set-up and with the bonus of being back in LA. And he left Kate in a position to be blind-sided by his boss, a stranger, who knew things about Toby that Kate, his wife, had no idea of because, once again, he's keeping shit from her. Like she is a fucking afterthought. 

Then, of course, we have their big blow-up, which honestly has been a long time coming and I will say rang very realistic to me. Because for all of Toby's being horrified at Kate's longing for "Old Toby," something tells me he misses "Old Kate", too. Who sat around, all depressed, with no plans, no vision, and looking to him to be her everything. The "Old Kate" would have moved to SF the second he mentioned the job, but "New Kate" has carved out her own life and vision of her future now, which transcends her job at the school and is so much bigger than that as she navigates parenting of two young children, one special-needs, mostly on her own, maintaining friendships, and coping with a mother living on borrowed time, especially from mental capacity perspective. 

He expects her to embrace all of the changes in him but I'm not sure he is willing to do the same, including his "pffting" of her job because it's only part-time and doesn't bring in the income his does. Nevermind that it's the first job where she felt truly fulfilled and happy (huh, that sounds familiar). And speaking of money, while the COL in both cities is definitely well beyond my current means, SF is, overall, nearly 40% higher COL, with the median home price over half a million higher. All those items Toby was insistent Jack needed (which what he and any kid need most are two involved, caring parents) are gonna cost a heck of a lot more in SF. It also came off as condescending that he would list all these things out to Kate like she's some idiot instead of a very well-informed parents who lives with Jack day-to-day and who works with blind children of various ages at a school very in tune with their needs. It's also overlooked that Kate working part-time means less time in day care and those costs, which are exorbitant and will be that much higher in SF. So Kate should probably plan on quitting working at all so she can stay home full-time with the kids. He was equally dismissive and short-sighted regarding Jack and his routine. Establishing routines at a young age, especially with Jack's needs, is key to his growth and development and Kate has done all the heavy lifting there. But Toby doesn't "see" the hard work she has done to help Jack learn to be a bit more independent with walking to the park and other neighborhood activities. Does he think that happened overnight? I'm sure it took weeks, if not months, to teach him their park routine, but nope, let's just scrap that and start over. 

His ultimatum at the end of the episode had me raging. No, you do not get to unilaterally decide, much less attempt to dictate where your wife and kids live. Bread-winner or not. But this is the same Toby who already went ahead and made major changes in his life without her.

Of course, it was good that he took his health into his own hands and he lost the weight and got healthy (all of that is to be applauded), but the way he went about it, sneaking around, literally hiding his weight loss, was not okay.

Then he upped the ante by looking outside his own marriage for validation, first commiserating with the CF group at large (and hanging out with them beyond gym time, leaving clueless Kate sitting at home with their infant son), then singling out Kara and having what I would call an emotional affair since he clearly kept their texts from Kate and even out and out lied that it was a group text, when it was not. And sorry, I consider those texts and those relationship an emotional affair as they were sharing confidences that should not be shared when one of them is married, some of which were clearly not favorable toward Kate given the exchange Kate found on his phone. 

Kate swept all of that under the rug and just accept that he wasn't doing anything wrong when he absolutely was. Aside from the Kara situation, he was living this other life away from the house. He completely shut her out of all that, unilaterally deciding for her that she couldn't or wouldn't cope with the changes in him. Kind of like now. And lying to her throughout that whole process until she found him out. Kind of like now.

Ask a lot of couples that have experienced infidelity and many will tell you the cheating per se wasn't the marriage killer/ender but the lies. 

So I don't view this episode or this season as some sort of ham-fisted attempt by the writers to turn Toby into a mustache-twirling villain who is crushing Kate's soul. Quite the contrary, it's an ongoing pattern with Toby, through the latest lie about the LA job offer and the lie of omission by his not willing to share the salary information. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. 

And once trust is violated, it's very difficult to come back from that. Toby continuing to keep things from her has to be hugely triggering from Kate. I mean, the lies about the job being in SF, the latest job offer. Those are not small lies. Are there ever?

As for Kate's climb up that hill, I was never prouder of her. I think her mother's words, to live her best life, and her decision to appoint Kate as her guardian in the event she outlives Miguel, have validated her as a wife and a mother, something Kate has struggled with since giving birth to preemie Jack. For so much of Kate's life, she's been the background to other's foregrounds, her parents, her brothers, Kevin especially, and now Toby, and now she is starting to realize it is okay to want things for herself and to ask for what she feels she deserves. 

Because my sense is that Kate is coming to the same realization that I am. That even if she and the kids did move to SF, the problems they have between them aren't going to magically go away because they are living in the same place.

This episode really showed Kate's evolution from clingy child to clueless, despondent teenager/young adult, with other episodes coloring in the late twenties/thirty-something Kate, who was content to put everyone else ahead of her, Kevin especially, to attach her star to theirs, and live vicariously. With Jack's arrival, I did see a change in Kate where she started to find her footing and a vision of herself and a self-worth that wasn't attached to anyone else. 

I think as she stood there on the top of the hill, which was a metaphor for so much more, she realized that she does have worth and value, but so much of that is tied to her family/support system and job. Which are in LA. While Toby feels the same about SF and I can understand it, but his approach is all wrong. I am reserving judgment, for now, as to Kate throwing her hat in the ring for the recent retiree's position as it remains to be seen if she keeps it a secret from Toby or if she would even get it. 

All in all, I found this episode to be very painful, but realistic, interpretation of a marriage unraveling. I think they can have the life and happiness they've dreamed of, only, sadly, it isn't going to be with each other. 

 

[SuzieQ]

I didn't read all the comments so someone probably said this already, but they are so obviously headed for divorce court, so moving to SF, just means Kate will be totally alone in a city she doesn't want to be in when they split. 

I think Kate just resents that Toby got his shit together and is happy now and her weight loss efforts have failed.  As someone who used to be very overweight and lost it to get to a healthy weight, it really changes you.  He has decided his path going forward and it's just not going to align with hers.

[LoveLeigh]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:33 AM, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Kate is not emotionally/mentally well. 

This sums it up perfectly. I know the writers have had their hand somewhat forced when Chrissy didn't lose the weight she agreed to lose (I remember her doing an interview back early in season 1 where she said weight loss was part of her character's journey and she was grateful for the "push" she had to lose the weight), but Kate has her own issues that no one is allowed to address without being accused of "body shaming." Kate's fat. Kate has an unhealthy relationship with food not unlike Jack and Kevin had unhealthy relationships with alcohol. They were expected to get help. Randall was expected to get help for his anxiety. All of that happened. Anytime Kate starts to get help, I feel like they just drop it. Her speech yesterday about liking Toby before when he was unhealthy and trying to cover for how physically and emotionally unhealthy he was speaks volumes - but I have no confidence the writers actually address that problem. Kate will be right and Toby will be wrong.

 

We cannot address her size because it is body shaming? But she has gotten bigger each season. She climbed the hill on the show... could she actually climb that hill?  I suppose it was metaphoric as well as a physical challenge but I have a feeling Chrissy will soon have bariatric surgery. She looks over 500 pounds. She is at risk for cellulitis and lymphedemas. I think the writers drop her weight issue because they do not want to hurt the actor, Chrissy. She is way overweight and in her real life she will soon have to manage that. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by LoveLeigh

[CdrJanny]

20 minutes ago, screenaddict said:

Young Randall is Perfect. As a Perfect child, he would never traumatize his parents by drowning. 

LOL!  😂

 

22 minutes ago, screenaddict said:

Did anyone else want Uncle Jesse and Uncle Joey to come strolling out of the townhouses while Kate was walking up the hill?

But not Aunt Becky.  She is a convicted felon who spent time in prison, after all.

[CountryGirl]

We have seen Kate take walks with the kids on many episodes as well as her making healthier choices with respect to food and being very careful with the kids' diet, a little bit of Thanksgiving food frivolity notwithstanding, so I don't see it as all that far-fetched for her to have climbed that hill. It was what, a mile? Decidedly the steepest of steep, but doable if she took it slow and steady as was her approach. 

One being overweight or even obese and being able to exercise are not mutually exclusive. I saw this for myself as an instructor at a women's only fitness club back in my 20s. I remember the beginning of summer when a string of college girls showed up to workout, all of them tiny and likely size 0s. They didn't make audible comments but the disdain and disrespect for the vets of the club, many of whom took my class and were (gasp!) overweight, some even would be considered obese (there were two around Kate's weight), was clear as day on their faces. Until five minutes into one of my classes and they were panting and sweating and looking ready to drop while the rest of the class, the "fatties" in these young women's eyes included, were still going strong and kept going strong through the hour-long class. 

I am thrilled to see Kate making changes to better her health and I can only imagine how gratifying it was for her to crest that hill and look down at how far she had come, in more ways than one.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

We have seen Kate take walks with the kids on many episodes as well as her making healthier choices with respect to food and being very careful with the kids' diet, a little bit of Thanksgiving food frivolity notwithstanding, so I don't see it as all that far-fetched for her to have climbed that hill. It was what, a mile? Decidedly the steepest of steep, but doable if she took it slow and steady as was her approach. 

One being overweight or even obese and being able to exercise are not mutually exclusive. I saw this for myself as an instructor at a women's only fitness club back in my 20s. I remember the beginning of summer when a string of college girls showed up to workout, all of them tiny and likely size 0s. They didn't make audible comments but the disdain and disrespect for the vets of the club, many of whom took my class and were (gasp!) overweight, some even would be considered obese (there were two around Kate's weight), was clear as day on their faces. Until five minutes into one of my classes and they were panting and sweating and looking ready to drop while the rest of the class, the "fatties" in these young women's eyes included, were still going strong and kept going strong through the hour-long class. 

I am thrilled to see Kate making changes to better her health and I can only imagine how gratifying it was for her to crest that hill and look down at how far she had come, in more ways than one.

I noticed in this episode that Kate declined the cake at the retirement party.  She also was trying to avoid all the desserts at Toby's boss's house.  When she finally did choose to indulge, she picked up 3 items vs. everyone else who had plates heaping with pastries and cookies.  She is trying.

[CountryGirl]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

I noticed in this episode that Kate declined the cake at the retirement party.  She also was trying to avoid all the desserts at Toby's boss's house.  When she finally did choose to indulge, she picked up 3 items vs. everyone else who had plates heaping with pastries and cookies.  She is trying.

She also declined the wine at Madison's house and at the party, drinking water instead.

Speaking of healthy choices, I wholeheartedly disagree that Kate was upset with Toby because he lost weight and got fit. Was there a tinge of envy? Sure, that is human and to be expected. Not unlike me when I work out and track calories etc for a few months and the scale won't budge at times and MH can run around the block and give up soda for a week and lose 5 lbs like that (snaps fingers). She was upset because he kept it from her just like he kept his little CF get-togethers and CF bestie Kara from her. His choosing to keep this psuedo-double life from her and carry on with Kara and get emotional validation from her while his wife was clueless at home also shows that he decided for Kate that she wouldn't be able to handle him getting in shape. We will never know how Kate would have reacted if he had come to her from Day 1 to clue her in or, even more wonderful, invited her to ease into it and do it together. Because that is not how it played out. But it certainly sounds awfully familiar - there's that pattern with ol' Tobe once again. 

[Haleth]

Can anyone remember in the wedding flash forward if Rebecca was there?  I’m just wondering what the time line will be. 

[Jax7917]

I haven't read any of these comments yet but I am (mostly) team Toby. Kate is being very unreasonable in regard to Toby "changing" or not living up to her marriage standards. She is an assistant teacher at a school and it's been said that she's hardly making money, it's more for personal fulfillment. So SOMEONE HAS TO WORK. Not just work, but make a damn good living in order to support a family of four, one of whom is blind and needs a lot of services. When I first met my husband, he was romantic, did nice gestures, we had a lot of one-on-one time.. but guess what? Life changed so we had to change too. We got married, bought a house, had a child, expenses added up.. and time together is nowhere as much as it was and our days became very routine. He has to work more because we need the money and when we are both done with work, we have household chores to do. I see a difference in my husband since we first met, because that's life. But that's not his fault. As time goes on, we have more and more responsibilities that add up. Kate's problem is exactly what all the Pearson's problem is. They all live in a fantasy world. A world where no one changes, no one grows, no one is happy with anything. They all want and expect MORE all the time. I get that it was wrong of Toby to hide the job offer from an LA office, but she was looking to pick a fight from the moment she got there. Oh no, Toby planned a nice weekend for you with fun things to do/explore. Kate was pissed about it. All the Pearson's are just so insufferable. Imagine being married to one of them?!

Edited to add: I don't see the changes in Toby that the show is trying to tell us. He still comes off as goofy, pays an extreme amount of attention to Kate, still does grand gestures, is a family man. If they wanted to really show us that he's acting differently, they need to do a better job .

Also, I forgot what position Kate applied to over the phone at the end but, 1) of course she'll get it because she's an entitled Pearson and 2) I guess she's setting herself up to make more money so she can be financially stable without Toby.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Jax7917

[Rootbeer]

58 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

It was more than just showing her the house. He said he’d gotten pre-approved for a mortgage and discussed how much they could  sell their current house for. It’s a big deal to be preparing to sell the house your wife and children live in without checking with your wife.

Nothing Toby did was irreversible.  People get pre approved for mortgages all the time; in a tight, expensive market like SF, it makes sense.  As far as knowing the current value of the house in LA, every homeowner should have an idea of that, especially with the recent real estate boom.  Once again, he didn't sign for a mortgage, he didn't sign a contract with a realtor to sell their house.  Nothing he did was permanent.  Kate had agreed to come and take a look at SF and see how she felt about living there.  Toby just went ahead and took it s little further, but nothing he did was out of line, IMO.  When Kate agreed to come to SF, I seem to recall it was at least, in part, to consider moving there.

[gonzosgirrl]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned - I thought the flash forward with Toby too depressed to get out of bed already happened (before Jack's birth?). When we see him around the time of Rebecca's deathbed, he only seems sad/hesitant that 'she' wouldn't want him there, but looked okay, even good, otherwise. Am I totally misremembering? 

Also, except for the last moment - the IMO totally out of character ultimatum - I'm 100% #TeamToby on this.

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The cracks were already there in Kate and Toby's marriage.  The move was that slight bit of pressure needed for it to finally break.  I did see Kate come to SF with an open mind, but Toby was not willing to meet her halfway.  Never once in his plan for the weekend did he take Kate and what she would have wanted into account.  His itinerary felt like love-bombing in a way that Jack's grand gestures never did.  And while Toby's coworkers seem friendly, I can see Kate wondering where she fits into his new life.  

Yeah, Kate decided her marriage was over during her walk.  Jack's memory of the Big Green Egg is not the inciting incident for his parent's divorce.  Kate is going to go back to LA and start to plan her new life without Toby.  

Yes to all of this, especially the bolded. I would have found that itinerary exhausting. She was there to test the waters with living life with Toby in SF, not simply living in SF. Those are very different things. It felt like he was trying to sell her on the city and its SUPERFUN!!! things, not what their life would be like on a day-to-day basis. Telling me neither of them have really pictured them being in SF together.

Then there as his ridiculous inclusion of the cocktail party, which sent a clear message that he couldn't even plan a weekend for Kate, a mere two and a half-days, without bringing work into it. And expecting her to go to a work event and stand around by herself with a bunch of strangers while he worked the crowd? Oh hell no.

[bichonblitz]

13 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Toby lost me at the end when he was basically telling Kate they would what he wanted, and kind of presented it to her as though she had no real choice.  Everything he was saying might be correct, but he's done a terrible job of presenting any of this to Kate.

I agreed with all of Toby's points but his "You're going to have to get on board with me here" came off as a condescending threat to me.  

Having said that, Chrissy Metz did a great acting job this episode because I have never disliked a character more.

Edited March 23, 2022 by bichonblitz

[CountryGirl]

In the flash forward, a depressed, wedding-ring-less Thomas is sitting in bed, alone, when Randall calls.

As far as his confusion about why Rebecca would want him there, I never understood that. He is the father of two of her grandchildren and that would be reason enough for Rebecca.

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Yes to all of this, especially the bolded. I would have found that itinerary exhausting. She was there to test the waters with living life with Toby in SF, not simply living in SF. Those are very different things. It felt like he was trying to sell her on the city and its SUPERFUN!!! things, not what their life would be like on a day-to-day basis. Telling me neither of them have really pictured them being in SF together.

Then there as his ridiculous inclusion of the cocktail party, which sent a clear message that he couldn't even plan a weekend for Kate, a mere two and a half-days, without bringing work into it. And expecting her to go to a work event and stand around by herself with a bunch of strangers while he worked the crowd? Oh hell no.

Well, Toby loves his new coworkers, therefore Kate will love them as well.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't know - if it's true that the salary offer was a joke, then it's no different than not telling her there were positions available at McDonald's in LA. 

To me it all just came off as Kate 'missing' the guy she first met, who was as needy and messed up as her, not to mention also fighting his weight - and she's using the circumstances to justify her giving up on the marriage. She's already started an emotional affair with asshole teacher.

[Rootbeer]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Forgive me if this has been mentioned - I thought the flash forward with Toby too depressed to get out of bed already happened (before Jack's birth?). When we see him around the time of Rebecca's deathbed, he only seems sad/hesitant that 'she' wouldn't want him there, but looked okay, even good, otherwise. Am I totally misremembering? 

Also, except for the last moment - the IMO totally out of character ultimatum - I'm 100% #TeamToby on this.

My recollection is same as yours.  We saw that flash forward during Toby's depression storyline, but he didn't seem depressed to me in the FF.  He was lying alone in bed when he got the call to come and he mostly sounded reticent and questioning, which makes sense if he's being called to come to his former MIL's deathbed.  Also, when he asked if 'she' wanted him there, do we know that he was referring to Rebecca?  Maybe he was asking about Kate.

[tennisgurl]

The real issue between Kate and Toby seems to be a real lack of communication. They should have talked about their weekend plans before Kate got there, and maybe found a compromise where they do a few of Toby's activities and also spend some time just hanging out, but now both of them had their own expectations for the trip and both of them are annoyed over something that should have been worked out over the phone. Toby should have told Kate about the LA job and its unfair that he is basically building a whole life, including a house, for them without talking to her. They're supposed to be partners, he cant just expect her to change everything so that he can keep his new life he is so excited about without even considering what she might want. On the other hand, Kate clearly went into this trip already salty with Toby for not being "old" Toby anymore, which is really not fair either. People change, that's just the way it is, and most of Toby's changes have been necessary life saving changes, especially getting healthy after his heart attack, and Kate has always been uncomfortable with Toby getting healthier, I think its makes her insecure about her own weight issues, and just does not like change in general. She clearly has a lot of issues with how their long distance relationship, but she never just talks about it, she just gets mad then lets it simmer until she explods over something that Toby did that he has no idea he did. Toby came in with a plan all ready to go without talking to Kate, Kate came in looking for a fight, so much of this seems to be less about Kate and Toby becoming different people so much as they are not communicating with each other. The "Toby planned the day outing" seems to be the whole issue in microcosm. Toby bulldozes Kate and makes choices for both of them, Kate is mad but seethes about it instead of being honest and then yells later.

Also, while Toby was a dick about dismissing Kate's job as her "middling" career, he also did make a lot more good points than Kate did on a practical level. I know that this show hates practical things like money and people doing things for money is usually framed as bad, but Toby isn't wrong that his job probably does pay a lot more than her part time job teaching music, and they are going to need a lot of money to take care of two little kids, especially one who needs extra help, so it makes sense to prioritize it for the minute. They will need more help, the situation they are in isn't working, and Jack is a little kid, one who is going to have to leave the house at some point, he will learn to survive a move.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

In the flash forward, a depressed, wedding-ring-less Thomas is sitting in bed, alone, when Randall calls.

As far as his confusion about why Rebecca would want him there, I never understood that. He is the father of two of her grandchildren and that would be reason enough for Rebecca.

Thanks, I was definitely conflating this with another scene. I didn't recall him being in bed during the 'she wouldn't want me there' convo, but I still don't recall thinking he was depressed then.

Edited March 23, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[himela]

14 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Jack and Rebecca are massive helicopter parents (something that really didn't exist in the 80's BTW) so it's no wonder Kate was fighting going in the water so hard. If they just let her sit by the side of the pool and watch everyone else having fun, I bet she would have gotten in of her own accord. Also, if she doesn't want to stick her face in the water, I don't think it's such a big deal. She eventually would on her own time.

Fun fact about myself when I was a little girl that I learnt like a year ago (I'm 40); I was such an introvert since I was a baby (but back then people didn't know the term "introvert", all kids were supposed to be sociable and play with other kids and never want to be alone). So when I went to the kindergarden, I sat in the manager's office for a MONTH because I didn't want to go play with the other kids and they just let me be. One day there was a little girl who had a toy that I found interested and I just followed her and that's how I got to go play with the other kids. :P

[CountryGirl]

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This right here is what really bothered me tonight with Toby.  He does talk to someone about the job offer in LA, he just chooses to talk to someone with a vested interest in keeping Toby in SF.  Toby knows Kate will want him to take that job because that is what their plan is.  Toby unilaterally decides to change the plan.  He also was never going to tell Kate about it.  And Kate was trying to see what a life in SF would entail.  She went into this trip with an open mind. Yes, she is a bit sad about leaving her old life behind, and she has a right to feel that way.  If Toby's boss did not clue her in to Toby's deception, she would have told Toby to go ahead and pull the trigger on the new house in SF.  

That cannot be overstated. He was never, ever gonna tell her the truth about this until she stumbled upon it. Just like he was never gonna tell her the truth about Kara and the other CF crew and them commiserating about him being married to horrible Kate until she saw his text (and not because she was going through his phone but she was going to take a picture of Jack). Just like he still refuses to tell her about what the LA offer was. I don't give two shits what it was, he didn't get to unilaterally decide what to share with Kate and what not to. They are married but he isn't acting like it now just like he didn't back then. It is a partnership where they have equal say but it feels like Toby thinks because he makes the lion's share of money that he holds all the cards. 

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, screenaddict said:

Plus, we still don't know why dying Rebecca would want Toby at her bedside if Kate is happily remarried!

This isn’t weird to me at all. Toby is the father of two of Rebecca’s grandkids. He’s still family even if he and Kate aren’t together - he still would have been around the Pearsons post-divorce, and I think Toby would want to pay his respects to his kids’ dying grandmother. My parents maintained good relationships with the other side of the family after their divorce. Rebecca and the rest of the Pearsons could still like Toby even if Kate doesn’t - they SHOULD all make an effort to get along for the kids’ sake. And even if things are weird between him and Kate, you put that aside when someone is dying. It’s not about you in that moment.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Empress1

[CountryGirl]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know - if it's true that the salary offer was a joke, then it's no different than not telling her there were positions available at McDonald's in LA. 

To me it all just came off as Kate 'missing' the guy she first met, who was as needy and messed up as her, not to mention also fighting his weight - and she's using the circumstances to justify her giving up on the marriage. She's already started an emotional affair with asshole teacher.

If it was a huge pay cut or some other huge disparity, then just say that. But he purposefully chose to be evasive and acted offended that she would even ask. 

I have seen zero signs of Kate having an emotional affair with her boss. During the one conversation that they have had outside of work issues that could have slid into the danger zone, Kate quickly caught herself, called herself out on this kind of conversation not being appropriate, and started to change the subject. Philip continued with it for only a moment and that was to encourage her in her marriage, that if they were still bickering about silly things. then it meant they still cared for each other deeply. 

[CountryGirl]

41 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Can anyone remember in the wedding flash forward if Rebecca was there?  I’m just wondering what the time line will be. 

So far, I think we saw Kate, Philip, Kevin, Randall, Nicky, and Madison in the 5 year flash forward. I don't think there was any mention or footage of Rebecca.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

1 hour ago, LoveLeigh said:

We cannot address her size because it is body shaming but she has gotten bigger each season. She climbed the hill on the show... could she actually climb that hill?  I suppose it was metaphoric as well as a physical challenge but I have a feeling Chrissy will soon have bariatric surgery. She looks over 500 pounds. She is at risk for cellulitis and lymphedemas. I think the writers drop her weight issue because they do not want to hurt the actor, Chrissy. She is way overweight and in her real life she will soon have to manage that. 

As a former fat girl, this irritates me. We can tell a person smoking that it is unhealthy for them and they need to stop. Same for people who are alcoholics or engage in reckless behavior. But point out that someone is morbidly obese (and let's be real, Kate is likely closer to super obese) and you are body shaming. It isn't healthy and she has two young children to think about.

1 hour ago, screenaddict said:

Did anyone else want Uncle Jesse and Uncle Joey to come strolling out of the townhouses while Kate was walking up the hill?

I was hoping he was taking her to see the Full House house. I mean, logically that wouldn't be the case since that show was on ABC and not NBC, but I was hopeful.

17 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Nothing Toby did was irreversible.  People get pre approved for mortgages all the time; in a tight, expensive market like SF, it makes sense.  As far as knowing the current value of the house in LA, every homeowner should have an idea of that, especially with the recent real estate boom.  Once again, he didn't sign for a mortgage, he didn't sign a contract with a realtor to sell their house.  Nothing he did was permanent.  Kate had agreed to come and take a look at SF and see how she felt about living there.  Toby just went ahead and took it s little further, but nothing he did was out of line, IMO.  When Kate agreed to come to SF, I seem to recall it was at least, in part, to consider moving there.

I agree with this. Getting preapproved for a loan is nothing. He didn't put the house on the market. He didn't put in an offer on a house. He was getting prepared so that if Kate was on board, they could get the ball rolling faster.

Again, Toby made some pretty big mistakes this episode, but I do not and will not see it as Toby was wrong and Kate was right. And am I not remembering correctly or was Kate planning to go with Toby to San Francisco when he first got the job but then got offered the part-time position at the school and decided to stay?

[BlancheDevoreaux]

16 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

My recollection is same as yours.  We saw that flash forward during Toby's depression storyline, but he didn't seem depressed to me in the FF.  He was lying alone in bed when he got the call to come and he mostly sounded reticent and questioning, which makes sense if he's being called to come to his former MIL's deathbed.  Also, when he asked if 'she' wanted him there, do we know that he was referring to Rebecca?  Maybe he was asking about Kate.

Unless Rebecca came down with something else that was killing her, I can't imagine she had her faculties to ask for Toby. When you are dying from Alzheimer's, unless it is that final-stage rally, you don't know most of the people in your life. Short-term memory goes before long-term. My dad, for example, has Alzheimer's. He forgot my daughter (his only grandchild) first. Then he forgot my husband. My sister and I were the next to go. He has held on to memories of his brothers longer than my mom. If her Alzheimer's has progressed to the point that she is dying from it, it would be odd she remembered Toby enough to ask for him. I'm thinking he was asking about Kate.

[Trillian]

14 hours ago, Katie111 said:

One final note, but why do they never address Kates weight in the present time?  No one ever makes a comment about her weight.  No one at the party even batted an eyelash when Toby introduced her.  She is morbidly obese and I just don’t think that’s realistic at all that no one seems to notice it. 

 

14 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I’ve never in my life gone to a party and talked about someone’s appearance out loud. Maybe they are used to seeing different types of people and were more interested in getting to know Kate rather than discussing her weight. Why would her weight be the business of anyone at the party anyway? 

I wouldn’t have expected the co-workers to discuss her weight with her - they seemed too nice and polite for that - but I agree that it’s unrealistic that no one seemed to have noticed it.  I have a cousin who used to be morbidly obese (she finally got down to a healthier weight in middle age through years of healthy eating and exercise.  Amazing willpower and discipline). I never noticed it since I grew up with her and was used to it but I would see other people’s reaction when she walked into a room and they meet for the first time.  Even the most polite people would do a double-take or a little blink of shock.  I frankly expected to see that here when the coworkers met her for the first time.  It might’ve even been incorporated into the plot as Kate’s not being comfortable in Toby’s new world. But to do that, they would’ve had to accept that most people do not consider Kate’s weight to be normal and they are trying so hard to normalize it that they have moved beyond what’s really plausible in this regard. 

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Look, we can argue about who was in the right and who was in the wrong til the cows come home. But I think most of us are siding with Toby because we know the writers are trying to play us. If any of the bs they’ve been feeding us about “nobody will be the bad guy, they’re just growing apart” was true, this episode wouldn’t have 1) portrayed as a workaholic or 2) had him not tell her about the LA offer without telling her. 

Clearly, Toby is getting thrown under the bus as the bad guy because God forbid any of the Pearsons be the bad guy. They’re always the special snowflakes and their significant others should just smile and enjoy the  ride. And it’s pretty obvious that they’re using this and the cooker fallout to justify Toby winding up alone and depressed while Kate gets another shiny happy wedding. It’s so transparent it’s pathetic.

Quoting this because I can only like it once and think it deserves a lot more!

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

As a former fat girl, this irritates me. We can tell a person smoking that it is unhealthy for them and they need to stop. Same for people who are alcoholics or engage in reckless behavior. But point out that someone is morbidly obese (and let's be real, Kate is likely closer to super obese) and you are body shaming. It isn't healthy and she has two young children to think about.

I was hoping he was taking her to see the Full House house. I mean, logically that wouldn't be the case since that show was on ABC and not NBC, but I was hopeful.

I agree with this. Getting preapproved for a loan is nothing. He didn't put the house on the market. He didn't put in an offer on a house. He was getting prepared so that if Kate was on board, they could get the ball rolling faster.

Again, Toby made some pretty big mistakes this episode, but I do not and will not see it as Toby was wrong and Kate was right. And am I not remembering correctly or was Kate planning to go with Toby to San Francisco when he first got the job but then got offered the part-time position at the school and decided to stay?

Their plan was for Toby to take the job in SF but continue to look for work in LA.  This job was supposed to be half remote work so Toby could stay in LA part time.  

[BlancheDevoreaux]

1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Their plan was for Toby to take the job in SF but continue to look for work in LA.  This job was supposed to be half remote work so Toby could stay in LA part time.  

thanks

[Jeddah]

49 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

People get pre approved for mortgages all the time; in a tight, expensive market like SF, it makes sense.

Well, sure people get pre-approved all the time. Do people get pre-approved all the time without telling their spouse? No. That’s not normal. Obviously, a pre-approval doesn’t mean you have to buy a house. I think we all know that. But starting the process without telling your spouse is lousy, even if none of it was irreversible.

[himela]

3 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I’ve pretty much hated both of these characters the entire show, so I’m not on any one’s side. Is there anything likeable about either of them? Has there ever been?

Do we have to like every character in a show? They are just people with flaw like all of us and I find that interesting. :)

[Rootbeer]

41 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

As a former fat girl, this irritates me. We can tell a person smoking that it is unhealthy for them and they need to stop. Same for people who are alcoholics or engage in reckless behavior. But point out that someone is morbidly obese (and let's be real, Kate is likely closer to super obese) and you are body shaming. It isn't healthy and she has two young children to think about.

 

How many alcoholics stop drinking because someone tells them to quit?  How many smokers don't know the dangers of cigarettes and, if only someone would tell them, they would quit?  I don't approach smokers unless their smoke is encroaching on my right to breathe clean air.  I don't approach drunks unless they're trying to drive or do something dangerous.  What gives anyone the right to tell Kate she is obese and needs to lose weight?  She knows, believe me, she knows, and constantly reminding her of it is not going to help her.  I've seen nothing on the show that indicates that Kate doesn't realize she is severely overweight and her health is endangered.  

Edited March 23, 2022 by Rootbeer

[BlancheDevoreaux]

Just now, Rootbeer said:

How many alcoholics stop drinking because someone tells them to quit?  How many smokers don't know the dangers of cigarettes and, if only someone would tell them, they would quit?  I don't approach smokers unless their smoke is encroaching on my right to breathe clean air.  I don't approach drunks unless they're trying to drive or so something dangerous.  What gives anyone the right to tell Kate she is obese and needs to lose weight?  She knows, believe me, she knows, and constantly reminding her of it is not going to help her.  I've seen nothing on the show that indicates that Kate doesn't realize she is severely overweight and her health is endangered.  

Well her family felt it was their place to tell Randall, Kevin, and Jack they needed to get help. I'm not advocating for strangers to go up to her and call her fat fat the water rat. 

[Ohiopirate02]

45 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

If it was a huge pay cut or some other huge disparity, then just say that. But he purposefully chose to be evasive and acted offended that she would even ask. 

 

It's not about the money, if it was he would have told her.  That job in LA would have been enough money for Toby, Kate and the kids.  What it's really about is Toby loving this new job.  It is fulfilling him in a way that no other job has done before, and he does not want to give that up.  But, instead of communicating this to his wife, he has decided what is best for Toby is what is best for their whole family.  Plans change, but partners in a healthy relationship communicate with each other to shape a new plan.  Toby is not doing this.  He is forging ahead planning the future without asking for any input from his partner.

[Jeddah]

2 minutes ago, himela said:

Do we have to like every character in a show? They are just people with flaw like all of us and I find that interesting. :)

I guess for me the issue is that the show acts like they don’t have flaws. The writers genuinely think these are decent people. Unlikable characters make for great tv. It just doesn’t work for me when the unlikable characters are presented as these amazing people.

[mansonlamps]

9 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

How many alcoholics stop drinking because someone tells them to quit?  How many smokers don't know the dangers of cigarettes and, if only someone would tell them, they would quit?  I don't approach smokers unless their smoke is encroaching on my right to breathe clean air.  I don't approach drunks unless they're trying to drive or do something dangerous.  What gives anyone the right to tell Kate she is obese and needs to lose weight?  She knows, believe me, she knows, and constantly reminding her of it is not going to help her.  I've seen nothing on the show that indicates that Kate doesn't realize she is severely overweight and her health is endangered.  

Almost everyone I know who quit an addictive or destructive behavior did so after much urging/pressure from close friends and family.   I'm not suggesting complete strangers should be giving her advice,  but surely Rebecca, Randall and Kevin would have some concerns, along with Toby.  We're not talking 20 lbs here.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

Nothing Toby did was irreversible.  People get pre approved for mortgages all the time; in a tight, expensive market like SF, it makes sense.  As far as knowing the current value of the house in LA, every homeowner should have an idea of that, especially with the recent real estate boom.  Once again, he didn't sign for a mortgage, he didn't sign a contract with a realtor to sell their house.  Nothing he did was permanent.  Kate had agreed to come and take a look at SF and see how she felt about living there.  Toby just went ahead and took it s little further, but nothing he did was out of line, IMO.  When Kate agreed to come to SF, I seem to recall it was at least, in part, to consider moving there.

Exactly. In hot real estate markets, some real estate agents won't even let you view their homes without a written pre-approval. It's not like he applied for a mortgage without her. 

At its core, it seems they both want their own way and are unwilling to compromise. But Kate is the one who over time has had a consistently unrealistic view of the situation.  And Toby almost seems to be the type who hides stuff from her because she has such an over the top negative reaction to anytime someone suggests she shouldn't get her way. Both very flawed, but it's very hard for me to sympathize with Kate.  

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, mansonlamps said:

Almost everyone I know who quit an addictive or destructive behavior did so after much urging/pressure from close friends and family.   I'm not suggesting complete strangers should be giving her advice,  but surely Rebecca, Randall and Kevin would have some concerns, along with Toby.  We're not talking 20 lbs here.  

The thing with Kate's condition is it's a combination of destructive behavior in addition to the excess weight.  Bariatric surgery will help to fix part of it, but she still has to work on the behavioral aspect.  Which is what Kate is doing.  She may choose to have surgery down the road, but without doing the other work it will have little impact.  

[cardigirl]

17 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

How many alcoholics stop drinking because someone tells them to quit?  How many smokers don't know the dangers of cigarettes and, if only someone would tell them, they would quit?  I don't approach smokers unless their smoke is encroaching on my right to breathe clean air.  I don't approach drunks unless they're trying to drive or do something dangerous.  What gives anyone the right to tell Kate she is obese and needs to lose weight?  She knows, believe me, she knows, and constantly reminding her of it is not going to help her.  I've seen nothing on the show that indicates that Kate doesn't realize she is severely overweight and her health is endangered.  

Except that she insisted on continuing to try to conceive a child, after her miscarriage and after the specialist explained that a woman in her "condition" would have very little chance of having a healthy baby. But that didn't matter to Kate.  What she wanted she got. Stressed out Toby no end, but still ... 

And she pushed for the adoption as well. I'm not saying that Toby doesn't love these kids or isn't glad that they have them, or that she shouldn't be a mother, but the story of her conceiving and bearing baby Jack as a preemie indicates to me that she's not all that concerned about her health. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, cardigirl said:

Except that she insisted on continuing to try to conceive a child, after her miscarriage and after the specialist explained that a woman in her "condition" would have very little chance of having a healthy baby. But that didn't matter to Kate.  What she wanted she got. Stressed out Toby no end, but still ... 

And she pushed for the adoption as well. I'm not saying that Toby doesn't love these kids or isn't glad that they have them, or that she shouldn't be a mother, but the story of her conceiving and bearing baby Jack as a preemie indicates to me that she's not all that concerned about her health. 

I don't remember Kate pushing Toby to adopt.  I remember it being a mutual decision.   

[nilyank]

15 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It's not about the money, if it was he would have told her.  That job in LA would have been enough money for Toby, Kate and the kids.  What it's really about is Toby loving this new job.  It is fulfilling him in a way that no other job has done before, and he does not want to give that up.  But, instead of communicating this to his wife, he has decided what is best for Toby is what is best for their whole family.  Plans change, but partners in a healthy relationship communicate with each other to shape a new plan.  Toby is not doing this.  He is forging ahead planning the future without asking for any input from his partner.

Pretty much like when Randall decided to quit his high paying job. Or buying William’s old apartment building. Or running for office in another state which required them to sell their beautiful house, move into a new city, change schools for all the girls and adjust to Randalll’s whims.

Unlike Kate, Beth talked it out with Randall and despite her frustrations she didnt stew about it and blame him for not being the same Randall that she fell in love in college. Beth has an ability to bend that Kate isn’t as comfortable as doing.

I don’t think Toby helped his situation but I don’t believe that Kate would have been happy or as supportive if Toby told her about the other job offer but that he wanted to stay in the job in San Francisco. She has finally found a point in her life that she was happy with (kids, job as a music teacher asst, closer relationship with her mom, her home in LA) and she doesn’t want to change that. At least not for Toby’s dream job and life in SF.

[CountryGirl]

20 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It's not about the money, if it was he would have told her.  That job in LA would have been enough money for Toby, Kate and the kids.  What it's really about is Toby loving this new job.  It is fulfilling him in a way that no other job has done before, and he does not want to give that up.  But, instead of communicating this to his wife, he has decided what is best for Toby is what is best for their whole family.  Plans change, but partners in a healthy relationship communicate with each other to shape a new plan.  Toby is not doing this.  He is forging ahead planning the future without asking for any input from his partner.

Agreed, especially the bolded. 

Healthy communication has been sorely lacking in their relationship from the very beginning, starting with Toby's faking a persona as a coping mechanism to his present-day inability to tell Kate the truth about the other job offer and that it wasn't the money, but rather that he was invested in his life and career in SF at this point. At the very least, he owes Kate the respect of still being his wife to give her some agency by sharing the full picture. If she opts to stay in LA, well, then they are both going into the future with eyes wide open.  

[CountryGirl]

6 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't remember Kate pushing Toby to adopt.  I remember it being a mutual decision.   

That's because it was. Toby was the first to bring it up, back in 2020. On Jack's first birthday, they decided they wanted to adopt and started looking at adoption agencies online. 

[nilyank]

15 minutes ago, deaja said:

Exactly. In hot real estate markets, some real estate agents won't even let you view their homes without a written pre-approval. It's not like he applied for a mortgage without her

It was also a house that he saw every day that he fell in love with and the owners decided to sell. Who knows how long that house would have remained on the market.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Unless Rebecca came down with something else that was killing her, I can't imagine she had her faculties to ask for Toby. When you are dying from Alzheimer's, unless it is that final-stage rally, you don't know most of the people in your life. Short-term memory goes before long-term. My dad, for example, has Alzheimer's. He forgot my daughter (his only grandchild) first. Then he forgot my husband. My sister and I were the next to go. He has held on to memories of his brothers longer than my mom. If her Alzheimer's has progressed to the point that she is dying from it, it would be odd she remembered Toby enough to ask for him. I'm thinking he was asking about Kate.

My mom had dementia (never diagnosed with Alzheimers, but it 20+ years ago) and she forgot things in regression. By the end she only recognized my dad and my oldest (of four) brother. The next brother down looked a lot like her father (our grandfather) and she insisted he was him, even though he'd been gone for 30+ years. But what is funny (sad) is, she always recognized my husband - even called him by name - and would light up when he came in the room, even though she had no idea who I was.

Edited March 23, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

If it was a huge pay cut or some other huge disparity, then just say that.

He did say it. It was the first thing he said - that what they offered was a joke. Kate insisted on knowing the exact number, and Toby dug his heels in. That's what happens when two people each think they are right and it's no longer about the 'fact'.

[Ohiopirate02]

11 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Pretty much like when Randall decided to quit his high paying job. Or buying William’s old apartment building. Or running for office in another state which required them to sell their beautiful house, move into a new city, change schools for all the girls and adjust to Randalll’s whims.

Unlike Kate, Beth talked it out with Randall and despite her frustrations she didnt stew about it and blame him for not being the same Randall that she fell in love in college. Beth has an ability to bend that Kate isn’t as comfortable as doing.

I don’t think Toby helped his situation but I don’t believe that Kate would have been happy or as supportive if Toby told her about the other job offer but that he wanted to stay in the job in San Francisco. She has finally found a point in her life that she was happy with (kids, job as a music teacher asst, closer relationship with her mom, her home in LA) and she doesn’t want to change that. At least not for Toby’s dream job and life in SF.

Those decisions that Randall made almost broke up his marriage to Beth.  I don't see this as Beth is willing to bend in a way that Kate cannot, but that Kate does not see a place for herself in Toby's new life.  Beth did not suffer this problem.  She used the move to Philadelphia as a way for her to reconnect with her first love, dance.  When Randall made his rash decisions, Beth was also in a place of transition.  They were able to communicate and transition together.  

[CountryGirl]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He did say it. It was the first thing he said - that what they offered was a joke. Kate insisted on knowing the exact number, and Toby dug his heels in. That's what happens when two people each think they are right and it's no longer about the 'fact'.

He said the offer was "a joke." That didn't really answer the question for me as offer can mean a lot of things. MMV.