S02.E06: The Choice

[Haleth]

Geez, Edwina is such a narcissistic child.  For how long did her sister try to tell her to stay away from Anthony, but she loooves him and waaaants him.  Kate's only mistake was filling her with notions of romance and being swept off her feet as she grew up.  Maybe Kate should have told her more duty and her grandparents' ultimatum, which is more realistic for the period.  Edwina cried that Kate lied to her and wants Anthony for herself.  Um, excuse me, but who was standing before the archbishop in a wedding dress?  Not Kate.  Her sister was willing to give up her own passions and move back to India so Edwina would be happy.  Anthony may not have a burning passion for her (something that wouldn't last anyway), but he cared for her and was determined to make her happy.  Edwina could do a lot worse and probably will, now that she blew up her best chance for happiness.  Luckily her delicate handling of the king brought her back into the queen's good graces.

On 3/29/2022 at 6:48 AM, Kirsty said:

However, it seems the Queen now believes Eloise to be Lady Whistledown.

I feel I missed something.  How and why?

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

 I feel I missed something.  How and why?

The Queen's servant was keeping track of all their suspects during the wedding and came to the Queen with 'good news' at the end of the episode, meaning one suspect was caught. Eloise was the only one from the list, which also included Pen and Cressida Cowper, to slip out during it.

[Haleth]

Just because she left early?  That’s pretty flimsy. Unless she was followed to the printer’s?

[bijoux]

I'm not really sure what happens in this and what in the next episode regarding this plot, so I'd suggest watching episode 7 for any clarification.

[janie jones]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Just because she left early?  That’s pretty flimsy. Unless she was followed to the printer’s?

I'm pretty sure they show one of the queen's staff members watching Eloise at the printer's.

Everyone on the queen's list had a person assigned to her, and Eloise's would have followed her when she left.

Edited April 6, 2022 by janie jones

[scenicbyway]

I find it completely unbelievable that Simon wouldn’t have been at this wedding. Daphne’s brother, his best friend is getting married and she attends alone? Really?

That kiss had no chemistry perhaps that’s why scenes like that have been dialed back this season.

Its sweet that Eloise likes the printer, but it’s a completely unpractical match. I imagine her family wouldn’t allow it.

Edwina was really insufferable to not see her sister was giving up her happiness for her own. Ugh

[pasdetrois]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:17 PM, Nidratime said:

The irony is, that the love shared by Lady Violet and Edmund, Lady Mary and her clerk, the Queen and King, Daphne and Simon were all atypical in that time. The type of marriage that Anthony was proposing to have with Edwina was much more common.

This truth is what bugged me about all this "marry only for love" schtick. It happened, but was apparently not the norm for the aristocracy. (Unless all the books I've read and TV shows and movies I've seen have been lying to me.) Anthony was doing what was expected of him at that time.

Random questions:

Were there pretty, fancy wedding cakes scattered everywhere? I wasn't sure if the pastel tiered round boxes were cakes or gifts.

Was the Queen's monstrous headpiece hopefully fashioned by production out of Styrofoam and wire covered with hair? Cause if that thing was all hair, it would have been almost impossible for the actress to comport.

Does Prudence have to have the appearance of a big nose to underscore her nastiness? Such a tired trope.

Edited April 9, 2022 by pasdetrois

[ahisma]

11 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Was the Queen's monstrous headpiece hopefully fashioned by production out of Styrofoam and wire covered with hair? Cause if that thing was all hair, it would have been almost impossible for the actress to comport.

Does Prudence have to have the appearance of a big nose to underscore her nastiness? Such a tired trope.

The huge hairdos were usually hair over a wire cage, so it would be hollow and relatively lightweight.

I think Prudence is nasty as a consequence of being raised by a scheming mother (and not being nearly as smart as said mother). In general, I think she’s described as not as classically attractive and so somewhat harder to marry off. 

[Scarlett45]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:17 PM, Nidratime said:

The irony is, that the love shared by Lady Violet and Edmund, Lady Mary and her clerk, the Queen and King, Daphne and Simon were all atypical in that time. The type of marriage that Anthony was proposing to have with Edwina was much more common. One based on practicalities. Often to do with money, position, or family connections. But, that's why this is a romance. Another thing that wasn't common was a bride wearing white. It was Queen Victoria who popularized the white wedding gown and this is set before her time.

 

On 4/5/2022 at 10:02 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Brides wearing white in pre-1840 period pieces is one of my pet peeves.  I hate that showrunners think modern audiences require it. I get the myriad of reasons why the costuming and hair are never going to be historically accurate, but this change is not necessary.   We can figure out who the bride is without her being in a white dress.

Yes, seeing her in a white dress ground my gears!

[Lunula]

I was getting pretty bored with this episode and all the hand-wringing and talk of "it's my duty!" blah blah blah.

Honestly, I blame most of this mess on Anthony. Yes, Anthony & Kate should've been honest with themselves and with Edwina - but - Anthony knew how he felt, had people telling him it was a mistake, had Kate asking him not to do it, and his pig-headedness about "duty" and trying to run away from his feelings for Kate only motivated him to propose. I found him grossly lacking in any emotional maturity and even though we glimpsed his back story (which was sad) - he's still a grown man who should've known better not to toy with someone else's life. If he doesn't want to be with Kate because he "doesn't want love" - fine - but to drag Edwina into it made me dislike him.

I didn't like him much in S1 and honestly, I'm still not fond of him. I'm not really invested in the relationship with Kate (or Edwina) and find the Penelope and Eloise stories much more compelling. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I can't be too mad at Anthony because LOL, he's my fave and I do love him but also... the dumb dumb knew he fucked up with the proposal and tried to find a way out of it. He though that disastrous dinner with the Sheffields was the ticket, and that Violet and Lady Danbury could come up with some sort of "plan" that would spare any blowback on Edwina, but Kate's like "Nope!" So then he's like "Fine, I'll go talk to Edwina, and I'll call it off, even though I am a gentleman and gentlemen don't go back on their word." And Kate's all "No!!! Edwina loves you, you can't do this to her ANTHONY." Like why'd you have to do that Kate...it was the only reason he relented! 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I just posted in another thread that while I think Anthony started creating the catastrophe by proposing to Edwina, Kate made it worse by insisting her marry Edwina even after knowing he wanted Kate. I am not sure they are equally to blame but IMO Kate did play a significant role in creating the mess that led to a disastrous wedding. 

[katha]

I thought they did a good job of establishing why Edwina and Anthony could be a good match in theory while not working in execution. It's a marriage of convenience but they like each other and IMO would be invested in making it successful. In their society that is a lot more than many other matches start with.

Kate had taken herself out of the equation by declaring that she's going back to India no matter what. On paper it made sense for Anthony to propose to a pleasant girl he liked, while rationalizing away his attraction to Kate as a heat of the moment thing. Only once the engagement gets underway does he become aware of the emotional complications this will present long-term. Kate is still firmly in denial. The hurt they cause Edwina with their misguided reasoning is cringe.

But I understand why Edwina's anger focuses on Kate. Their lifelong relationship and Kate being a quasi mother to her heightens the emotional betrayal. Anthony also never declared his love for Edwina, while Kate filled her head with fairy tales. It's not fair on Kate but rang emotionally true.

However, yeah Kate is often pretty rigid and can come across as unlikable, but they have her in a series of scenes get berated by various people for her behavior. It explains her defensive attitude and I don't know how much I like it in combo with the IMO lack of proper focus on her.

[Roseanna]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:35 PM, Lunula said:

Honestly, I blame most of this mess on Anthony. Yes, Anthony & Kate should've been honest with themselves and with Edwina - but - Anthony knew how he felt, had people telling him it was a mistake, had Kate asking him not to do it, and his pig-headedness about "duty" and trying to run away from his feelings for Kate only motivated him to propose. I found him grossly lacking in any emotional maturity and even though we glimpsed his back story (which was sad) - he's still a grown man who should've known better not to toy with someone else's life. If he doesn't want to be with Kate because he "doesn't want love" - fine - but to drag Edwina into it made me dislike him.

I didn't like him much in S1 and honestly, I'm still not fond of him. I'm not really invested in the relationship with Kate (or Edwina) and find the Penelope and Eloise stories much more compelling. 

 

On 4/13/2022 at 12:30 AM, katha said:

I thought they did a good job of establishing why Edwina and Anthony could be a good match in theory while not working in execution. It's a marriage of convenience but they like each other and IMO would be invested in making it successful. In their society that is a lot more than many other matches start with.

Kate had taken herself out of the equation by declaring that she's going back to India no matter what. On paper it made sense for Anthony to propose to a pleasant girl he liked, while rationalizing away his attraction to Kate as a heat of the moment thing. Only once the engagement gets underway does he become aware of the emotional complications this will present long-term. Kate is still firmly in denial. The hurt they cause Edwina with their misguided reasoning is cringe.

Anthony owed Edwina the truth before he proposed to her: that he didn't love her and had chosen her only as a perfect mistress of the house and he wouldn't be faithful to her. At least he should have told the truth during their engagement.

[Enero]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

Anthony owed Edwina the truth before he proposed to her: that he didn't love her and had chosen her only as a perfect mistress of the house and he wouldn't be faithful to her. At least he should have told the truth during their engagement.

Please. Did any woman get such a confession before they married their husband back then? Lol. It was understood that most marriages was that of convenience ie being about status, financial matches and fulfilling their family and societal obligations. That is how Anthony approached his courtship of Edwina and even Lady Danbury made that clear to both Edwina and Kate, that this was essentially how high society marriages worked and were rarely based on love. 

Kate warned Edwina about Anthony’s intentions, telling her he had no intentions of marrying for love. And crazy enough he did too. At the poetry soirée he came right out and told Edwina that he couldn’t give her the passion she deserves but would be a man of action and duty. Edwina was so caught up in Anthony’s looks (she found him very attractive upon first seeing him. And I can’t blame her. Lol), his relentless pursuit of her,  and the possibility of being a viscountess that she ignored all she’d been told about him and knew about him from his own mouth. 

When she confronted him in this episode, I was glad that she finally started asking him the questions she should’ve asked while they were courting or at least before accepting his proposal. So while Anthony and Kate were completely misguided and thus made a lot of mistakes, turning this situation into an utter mess, Edwina wasn’t completely blameless in this cluster. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Enero

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Enero said:

Please. Did any woman get such a confession before they married their husband back then? Lol. It was understood that most marriages was that of convenience ie being about status, financial matches and fulfilling their family and societal obligations. That is how Anthony approached his courtship of Edwina and even Lady Danbury made that clear to both Edwina and Kate, that this was essentially how high society marriages worked and were rarely based on love. 

Kate warned Edwina about Anthony’s intentions, telling her he had no intentions of marrying for love. And crazy enough he did too. At the poetry soirée he came right out and told Edwina that he couldn’t give her the passion she deserves but would be a man of action and duty. Edwina was so caught up in Anthony’s looks (she found him very attractive upon first seeing him. And I can’t blame her. Lol), his relentless pursuit of her,  and the possibility of being a viscountess that she ignored all she’d been told about him and knew about him from his own mouth. 

When she confronted him in this episode, I was glad that she finally started asking him the questions she should’ve asked while they were courting or at least before accepting his proposal. So while Anthony and Kate were completely misguided and thus made a lot of mistakes, turning this situation into an utter mess, Edwina wasn’t completely blameless in this cluster. 

Good insights.

Yet, I can't help to think that, just like with Simon, mainly because of the plot Anthony was given artificial problems that caused him to act like a jerk.

[Conotocarious]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Good insights.

Yet, I can't help to think that, just like with Simon, mainly because of the plot Anthony was given artificial problems that caused him to act like a jerk.

This is basically every romance novel.

[bijoux]

14 hours ago, Enero said:

Please. Did any woman get such a confession before they married their husband back then? Lol. It was understood that most marriages was that of convenience ie being about status, financial matches and fulfilling their family and societal obligations. That is how Anthony approached his courtship of Edwina and even Lady Danbury made that clear to both Edwina and Kate, that this was essentially how high society marriages worked and were rarely based on love. 

Kate warned Edwina about Anthony’s intentions, telling her he had no intentions of marrying for love. And crazy enough he did too. At the poetry soirée he came right out and told Edwina that he couldn’t give her the passion she deserves but would be a man of action and duty. Edwina was so caught up in Anthony’s looks (she found him very attractive upon first seeing him. And I can’t blame her. Lol), his relentless pursuit of her,  and the possibility of being a viscountess that she ignored all she’d been told about him and knew about him from his own mouth. 

When she confronted him in this episode, I was glad that she finally started asking him the questions she should’ve asked while they were courting or at least before accepting his proposal. So while Anthony and Kate were completely misguided and thus made a lot of mistakes, turning this situation into an utter mess, Edwina wasn’t completely blameless in this cluster. 

Add Anthony telling her he'd often be away from his wife and children when they talked at Aubrey Hall. He was a dolt for pursuing the courtship as far as he did, but I really don't remember him leading Edwina on about his emotional involvement. He was very nice and agreeable but didn't indicate that he had deeper feelings for her. In fact, I think the first time she had cause to suspect he did was him defending her family in front of the Sheffields. Of course the audience can tell it was the attack against Kate that provoked him, but I can understand that Edwina would see it as her fiance's devotion to her.

[anamika]

I think the problem specifically for Edwina was not that Anthony was not passionately, deeply in love with her. As she told Kate, she was not expecting that. The problem was that Anthony was passionately, deeply in love with her sister. And that's the issue.

Could she marry a guy who doesn't love her now, however it could happen in the future because he's nice, the family is nice, he's a viscount etc.? Sure. Could she marry a guy who's deeply in love with her sister? No. Like, how is that even possible? How could anyone even be remotely happy living with a man whose love is reserved for her sister? It's absurd and Kate and Anthony were all kinds of wrong for going through with it. Anthony in the beginning and Kate later on when she pushed Anthony to do it even when he was talking about how his honor was hanging by a thread etc. etc.

That's the point. That's why Edwina's justifiably angry and hurt and resentful. She trusted her sister so much that she couldn't see what was happening right in front of her.

I can understand where Kate and Anthony were coming from and the past trauma and sense of responsibility that defines their actions. However I can also understand Edwina's anger and hurt and where she was coming from in her response to them.

Edited April 16, 2022 by anamika

[katha]

Absolutely, Edwina was right to drag them to hell for their actions. There was no malice involved but the way Anthony and Kate are used to managing and making decisions for everyone stripped Edwina of agency and was a huge emotional betrayal. Just because they had good intentions does not justify anything. I think her massive anger at Kate is both that such a mess colliding with a lifelong bond cuts deeper and that Kate is in such determined denial about everything.

[Scarlett45]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:16 AM, anamika said:

I think the problem specifically for Edwina was not that Anthony was not passionately, deeply in love with her. As she told Kate, she was not expecting that. The problem was that Anthony was passionately, deeply in love with her sister. And that's the issue.

Could she marry a guy who doesn't love her now, however it could happen in the future because he's nice, the family is nice, he's a viscount etc.? Sure. Could she marry a guy who's deeply in love with her sister? No. Like, how is that even possible? How could anyone even be remotely happy living with a man whose love is reserved for her sister? It's absurd and Kate and Anthony were all kinds of wrong for going through with it. Anthony in the beginning and Kate later on when she pushed Anthony to do it even when he was talking about how his honor was hanging by a thread etc. etc.

That's the point. That's why Edwina's justifiably angry and hurt and resentful. She trusted her sister so much that she couldn't see what was happening right in front of her.

I can understand where Kate and Anthony were coming from and the past trauma and sense of responsibility that defines their actions. However I can also understand Edwina's anger and hurt and where she was coming from in her response to them.

So much this. 
 

Edwina is young and naive but she’s not DUMB. Marrying a man that’s not in love with you is one thing, marrying a man that’s in love with your SISTER is another. 
 

Edwina was also SO EMBARRASSED! Wouldn’t you be?? She’s angry at Kate because she loves and trusts Kate, and as a quasi mother figure and much older sister she trusted her to give her the score! If Kate had come to her before the proposal and told her the truth, you know, treating Edwina like adult and not a baby that must be coddled, Edwina might have been shocked but she wouldn’t have felt betrayed. 

[Enero]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

f Kate had come to her before the proposal and told her the truth, you know, treating Edwina like adult and not a baby that must be coddled, Edwina might have been shocked but she wouldn’t have felt betrayed. 

I don’t know. I still think Edwina would’ve taken it VERY badly if Kate had confessed her feelings for Anthony before the wedding disaster. Kate became keenly aware of her feelings for Anthony after she and him had the fight about her returning to India. At which time Edwina had made it clear that Anthony was the one she wanted and thus she was dead set on marrying him. If Kate had told her she had strong romantic feelings for Anthony herself (and he for her) therefore Edwina should not consider marrying him, I think it still would’ve resulted in a temporary rift between the sisters. Edwina would’ve still felt betrayed being that Kate had been against Anthony all along only for her to fall for him herself. Yeah. That would’ve gone over like a lead balloon. Edwina obviously wouldn’t have suffered the embarrassment of the abandoned wedding but I think she still would’ve felt like a fool in that she couldn’t see what was happening before her eyes and somewhat betrayed as well.

I really do think Kate was caught between a rock and a hard place in this situation. She was damned if she confessed and damned if she didn’t confess. That’s not to say she shouldn’t have told Edwina the truth sooner. She should have. We talk about Edwina’s blindness but Kate was also blind in that she was so focused on Edwina finding happiness and getting her heart’s desire she failed to see how impractical it was for Edwina to marry not only a man who was not in love with her, but a man who was in love with her (Kate). In the long run that was never going to work even if she did return to India unless she planned on never visiting her sister again, which perhaps that was the plan. Being that she would’ve been thousands of miles from England it is possible that she could’ve made excuses for not visiting and stayed away forever. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Enero

[bijoux]

Great compilation of Edwina "not asking for any of this". I find it hilarious.

With time and everything settling down, I can pretty much accept most of Edwina's reactions, even the half-sister comment. She was hurt and lashing out. She's also 18 or something in the vicinity and we're led to believe she's as sheltered as the Bridgerton girls more or less. It all would have gone down much easier if they made just one small addition. Have Edwina react to Anthony's thorn in the side comment in any visible way. I feel like so much would have been salvaged with just that. It would get across that while pissed at Kate, she was still her sister. Edwina can slag her off, but not anyone else.

Also, someone should have pointed out to Edwina that she did in fact ask for it. Lady Danburry would have been a good candidate for it. 

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, bijoux said:

Great compilation of Edwina "not asking for any of this". I find it hilarious.

With time and everything settling down, I can pretty much accept most of Edwina's reactions, even the half-sister comment. She was hurt and lashing out. She's also 18 or something in the vicinity and we're led to believe she's as sheltered as the Bridgerton girls more or less. It all would have gone down much easier if they made just one small addition. Have Edwina react to Anthony's thorn in the side comment in any visible way. I feel like so much would have been salvaged with just that. It would get across that while pissed at Kate, she was still her sister. Edwina can slag her off, but not anyone else.

Also, someone should have pointed out to Edwina that she did in fact ask for it. Lady Danburry would have been a good candidate for it. 

Yeah, she did ask for it. Each time Kate tried to talk her out of picking Anthony. The scene where she does tell her it's what she wanted. Anthony, the estate and family. 

I agree about her reaction even the half-sister comment still stings. She did have every right to be pissed. Finding out Anthony and Kate were into each other at the alter? No woman would take that well.

[Cetacean]

In all fairness to Edwina, she was groomed for that life, she didn't ask for it.  Would she have been happy marrying the local butcher?  Well, no, I doubt it.  But it was drummed into her that she would marry a titled man, Anthony selected her because she was the Diamond, and she didn't ask for that either.

What she did not ask for was to be manipulated by both her sister and Anthony into a loveless marriage orchestrated for financial and social reasons.

Certainly it was a big part of the plot to get them all the way to the altar but it was kind of inevitable because neither Kate nor Anthony had the guts to call the whole thing off.  Edwina was the collateral damage with that choice.

[Enero]

4 hours ago, Cetacean said:

What she did not ask for was to be manipulated by both her sister and Anthony into a loveless marriage orchestrated for financial and social reasons.

By the time Edwina made it to the altar it was all about giving her what she wanted (which was Anthony), from Kate’s perspective. Being that Anthony was set on breaking the engagement but Kate begged him to marry Edwina because she claimed to love him (which she didn’t) and wanted him more than anything, for Anthony it was all about doing what Kate wanted. What a mess. Lol. SMH. By that point, the social and financial implications were secondary. 

What’s interesting about this whole mess is that many of us have focused on Kate and Anthony almost deceiving Edwina into marrying a man who didn’t love her, but the irony of the situation is that she didn’t love Anthony. She loved the idea of being Viscountess and running Aubrey Hall, but she was not in love with Anthony. Not once did she say her heart was broken because she loved him. Her hurt was over being pitied and deceived by Kate. 

Though I think Edwina’s anger was absolutely warranted, I still say she was not blameless in this mess. She was warned by both Kate and Lady Danbury from the start about Ton marriages, which were for the most part loveless, and that Anthony did not seek a love match (he even told her this himself) but she ignored all of this. Moreover, Kate was able to “manipulate” Edwina to a point, but no matter how hard she tried, she could not stop Edwina from choosing Anthony.  So again, her anger was warranted at Kate, but honestly I think not so much at Anthony. He always showed (and told her) what he was about but she ignored it, which I think is why he became an afterthought to her once the wedding had been nixed. 
 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Enero

[Scarlett45]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:27 AM, Enero said:

So again, her anger was warranted at Kate, but honestly I think not so much at Anthony. He always showed (and told her) what he was about but she ignored it, which I think is why he became an afterthought to her once the wedding had been nixed. 

I slightly disagree with this. Marrying a man who is not looking for a love match, but is kind and morally upstanding is one thing (which Anthony is), love may grow in time, maybe not romantic love but affection and respect, and the fact that he is young and handsome so she won't be repulsed by him sexually, is one thing. Marrying a man who has the HOTS and is madly in love with your SISTER is an entirely different thing.

Even if Anthony had come forward and told her he had a long term mistress that he did love and wouldn't give up, a woman in her position might be able to live with that (not like she has to socially interact with the mistress) but her own big sister whom she loves and idolizes?? I do think Edwina had a right to be pissed at Anthony. He had no business proposing (and he has more social power in this situation that either she or Kate), but of course she is more pissed at Kate because she and Kate had a more emotionally intimate relationship.

[wanderingstar]

Benedict and Colin razzing Anthony was hilarious. And not one lie was told by them. The longer Anthony drones on about his duty, the more I want to yell “Shut up, Frodo!” at him.

The entire wedding, all I could think about Anthony and Kate was “Y’all messy af” *smh*

I truly love the turn Edwina takes in this episode. Beautifully acted by Charithra Chandran.

[wanderingstar]

On 5/16/2022 at 2:01 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I do think Edwina had a right to be pissed at Anthony. He had no business proposing

I agree with this. Once Anthony realized what was happening between him and Kate, he should have stopped courting Edwina. I think it was wrong for him to even pursue her, knowing that she wanted a love match and he didn't. I'm still mad that he went back to her after she left the altar and tried to convince her to go ahead with the wedding.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I agree with this. Once Anthony realized what was happening between him and Kate, he should have stopped courting Edwina. I think it was wrong for him to even pursue her, knowing that she wanted a love match and he didn't. I'm still mad that he went back to her after she left the altar and tried to convince her to go ahead with the wedding.

That was entitlement in its finest. For the record I don’t think Anthony is a “bad dude”- he’s not. But I don’t think he ever realized his privilege and social power in that circumstance. 
 

He gave no thought to how this entire courtship process would be affecting Edwina (who has a hell of a lot more to lose from a botched courtship than he does), you know given that he was making sex eyes at her SISTER.

And then he PROPOSED, like what the hell?? He should’ve cut it off way before that. And THEN at the damn alter he was making sex eyes at her SISTER- again. 
 

Anthony dude no. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Scarlett45
Effecting and affecting are different!

[wanderingstar]

23 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

That was entitlement in its finest. For the record I don’t think Anthony is a “bad dude”- he’s not. But I don’t think he ever realized his privilege and social power in that circumstance. 
 

He gave no thought to how this entire courtship process would be effecting Edwina (who has a hell of a lot more to lose from a botched courtship than he does), you know given that he was making sex eyes at her SISTER.

And then he PROPOSED, like what the hell?? He should’ve cut it off way before that. And THEN at the damn alter he was making sex eyes at her SISTER- again. 
 

Anthony dude no. 

Every time I watch that scene where Anthony is trying to convince Edwina to marry him, I yell at the TV. When Edwina asks if he loves her and he pauses and responds "I understand you," I just rage. Just what every woman wants to hear. Ugh! And then, he actually had the nerve to be surprised that Edwina was harsh with him (not harsh enough, IMO). Like WTF did you expect when you were eye fucking her sister AT THE ALTAR!

Edwina's read of both him and Kate was great, but honestly, she could have gone much farther than she did. And I say this as someone that adores Kanthony.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[ouinason]

Anthony deserved it more than Kate, but as the sister she got hit harder anyway.  And that's totally understandable.

[andromeda331]

On 6/9/2022 at 7:09 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Every time I watch that scene where Anthony is trying to convince Edwina to marry him, I yell at the TV. When Edwina asks if he loves her and he pauses and responds "I understand you," I just rage. Just what every woman wants to hear. Ugh! And then, he actually had the nerve to be surprised that Edwina was harsh with him (not harsh enough, IMO). Like WTF did you expect when you were eye fucking her sister AT THE ALTAR!

Edwina's read of both him and Kate was great, but honestly, she could have gone much farther than she did. And I say this as someone that adores Kanthony.

Which is ironic because Anthony doesn't know Edwina. He doesn't know Edwina loves him and he hasn't been himself. Edwina thinks he's mild manner and he couldn't be any less. She also really thinks that Anthony is into her. 

11 hours ago, ouinason said:

Anthony deserved it more than Kate, but as the sister she got hit harder anyway.  And that's totally understandable.

I agree. While Kate deserve it because she loves Anthony and keep pushing him to marry Edwina. But Anthony proposed to Edwina knowing he was in loe with Kate and wanted to be with her. He even pointed out the marriage would be a disaster and yet he still proposes. He didn't have to do that. But it does make sense that Edwina blames Kate more. Finding out your sister who has trained you for this and spent many episodes trying to talk Edwina out of marrying Anthony turns out to be in love with Anthony herself. That would be bad. There's also the humiliationing of learning about it at literally at the alter. 

[katha]

Edwina became real collateral damage to both Anthony's and Kate's twisted thinking and trauma responses about what familial duty and love are supposed to be. Kate thinks Edwina will be happy if things are kept from her and she is treated like a baby who never has to face any kind of realities. Anthony by that point is a bit more connected with the reality of the situation, but still has these notions of familial duty and that deciding for other people what is best for them is a good idea. And they both think that self-abnegation is a good way to show love, Kate ignoring her own feelings so Edwina can "have" Anthony and Anthony listening to Kate's plea to go ahead with the wedding because he loves her and agrees with her twisted mindset on honor and duty. 

They both don't realize how much they hurt Edwina with these sorts of actions, with going behind her back like that and lying to her. Because in their twisted mindsets that they've been stuck in for the last decade they need to make themselves unhappy out of family duty. Not realizing that they hurt others with these decisions as well. Edwina needed to set them on fire, since therapists don't yet seem available in their world and Kate and Anthony both badly need one. ;-) 

Edited June 11, 2022 by katha

[ahisma]

I think the only reason Edwina didn’t go in harder was that everything about the situation was set up by the society at the time. Love matches weren’t the norm—it was much more the rule that you married for some type of advantage (family connection, financial stability, elevation of status, etc.). Or if some matter of honor was involved (“ruining” a girl’s reputation, marrying your dead brother’s pregnant girlfriend). If you were lucky enough to grow to love your spouse, that was the cherry on top. Marrying for love was nice if you could afford it (like the Bridgertons could) and a pipe dream if you couldn’t. 

Edwina marrying Anthony would be the height of advantage for her. But she also mistook his aggressive pursuit of her for love, when it was just the advantage (and convenience) of getting the “worthy” diamond. But once she knew Anthony was in love with Kate, I think she immediately understood that Kate would not be considered a suitable match and that Anthony was doing exactly what the entire ton expected—putting aside his sentiments to make a “correct” match. 

[anamika]

14 hours ago, katha said:

Edwina became real collateral damage to both Anthony's and Kate's twisted thinking and trauma responses about what familial duty and love are supposed to be. Kate thinks Edwina will be happy if things are kept from her and she is treated like a baby who never has to face any kind of realities. Anthony by that point is a bit more connected with the reality of the situation, but still has these notions of familial duty and that deciding for other people what is best for them is a good idea. And they both think that self-abnegation is a good way to show love, Kate ignoring her own feelings so Edwina can "have" Anthony and Anthony listening to Kate's plea to go ahead with the wedding because he loves her and agrees with her twisted mindset on honor and duty. 

They both don't realize how much they hurt Edwina with these sorts of actions, with going behind her back like that and lying to her. Because in their twisted mindsets that they've been stuck in for the last decade they need to make themselves unhappy out of family duty. Not realizing that they hurt others with these decisions as well. Edwina needed to set them on fire, since therapists don't yet seem available in their world and Kate and Anthony both badly need one. ;-) 

This is why I wanted Kate's backstory so much. Her character really got shafted in the season in which she was the lead. Instead we got pointless cousin Jack scenes having dinner with the Cowpers etc. Kate should have got flashbacks defining her relationships with Mary and Edwina and losing her father when young. I have no idea why they did not use that scene in the library during the thunderstorm for Kate's backstory.

Anthony's flashbacks and his complex relationship with Violet goes a long way in making us understand his abandonment issues and why he was so messy with Sienna and later with Edwina. We needed the same for Kate.

[wanderingstar]

23 hours ago, katha said:

Edwina became real collateral damage to both Anthony's and Kate's twisted thinking and trauma responses about what familial duty and love are supposed to be.

I have been trying to figure out how to articulate this, so thank you for doing it for me 🙂 The scene where Kate begs Anthony to marry Edwina is super frustrating to watch for this exact reason. They're both so out of touch with their emotions that they cannot see how their actions are hurting Edwina *smh*

[andromeda331]

22 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I have been trying to figure out how to articulate this, so thank you for doing it for me 🙂 The scene where Kate begs Anthony to marry Edwina is super frustrating to watch for this exact reason. They're both so out of touch with their emotions that they cannot see how their actions are hurting Edwina *smh*

They really don't. Finding out at the alter was horrible for her and humiliated her in front of everyone. It would have been much worse if they had actually married. Evenutally they would act on it. Kate never should have begged Anthony to marry Edwina and he never should have proposed. That was a disaster waiting to happen. Edwina would be hurt but not nearly as much as she end up being.

[Scarlett45]

On 6/11/2022 at 11:56 AM, ahisma said:

I think the only reason Edwina didn’t go in harder was that everything about the situation was set up by the society at the time. Love matches weren’t the norm—it was much more the rule that you married for some type of advantage (family connection, financial stability, elevation of status, etc.). Or if some matter of honor was involved (“ruining” a girl’s reputation, marrying your dead brother’s pregnant girlfriend). If you were lucky enough to grow to love your spouse, that was the cherry on top. Marrying for love was nice if you could afford it (like the Bridgertons could) and a pipe dream if you couldn’t. 

Edwina marrying Anthony would be the height of advantage for her. But she also mistook his aggressive pursuit of her for love, when it was just the advantage (and convenience) of getting the “worthy” diamond. But once she knew Anthony was in love with Kate, I think she immediately understood that Kate would not be considered a suitable match and that Anthony was doing exactly what the entire ton expected—putting aside his sentiments to make a “correct” match. 

Yes. Edwina was not upset that Anthony was not in love with her, she understood that his courtship of her was socially advantageous for both of them, and although she wasn't aware of the entirety of her family's finances (I firmly believe she thought she had some sort of dowry), she knows her father is deceased and that a marriage to a Viscount would secure a future/security for her, her Mom AND Kate.

She can also see that marriage to a young handsome guy who seems nice, with a loving family is a pretty good situation to be in, considering that if a woman marries wrong, she's screwed herself (married to an abuser for example). Edwina isn't mad that Anthony wanted a young bride, to be the mother to his children and a proper Viscountess- she's pissed he chose her for that knowing he was madly in love with her SISTER. Its as if NONE of Edwina's feelings were actually being considered here.

On 6/10/2022 at 4:43 PM, ouinason said:

Anthony deserved it more than Kate, but as the sister she got hit harder anyway.  And that's totally understandable.

Edwina is mad at Anthony, (rightly so), and again he kept trying to convince her to marry him, REALLY DUDE, Edwina is a person, not a walking uterus for you to use to breed. How was Edwina supposed to agree to marry him, and have sex with him, knowing he was fantasizing about her sister the entire time??? It's like Anthony gave no thought to how she would feel being married to him in that situation.  Anthony was being selfish, it was all about him and his need for a bride (which of course he has a right to think about, but after what happened he was so obtuse). Edwina doesn't have years of emotional history and intimacy with Anthony, she is upset, but she feels emotionally BETRAYED by her big sister. Anthony did not act as he should've according to the social rules of the time (he had no business proposing), but Kate hurt her heart.

Again, what really confuses me about this, is that it's not as if Kate is off limits (married to a guy that abandoned her for example). Anthony could marry KATE, you know, the woman he really wants (and who wants him). It is clear from the previous episode that Anthony doesn't care about Edwina's lack of dowry (the Bridgertons are loaded, so I can see why that wouldn't bother him), its not as if Kate would need one to marry him. Being an in-law to a Bridgerton would be a social step UP for Edwina as well (who is much younger and has more time to make a good match). Why is no one bringing this up? 

[mrsbagnet]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Again, what really confuses me about this, is that it's not as if Kate is off limits (married to a guy that abandoned her for example). Anthony could marry KATE, you know, the woman he really wants (and who wants him). It is clear from the previous episode that Anthony doesn't care about Edwina's lack of dowry (the Bridgertons are loaded, so I can see why that wouldn't bother him), its not as if Kate would need one to marry him. Being an in-law to a Bridgerton would be a social step UP for Edwina as well (who is much younger and has more time to make a good match). Why is no one bringing this up? 

I've been thinking about this a lot (too much even). Anthony implied, though not directly enough, that he'd drop Edwina for Kate. When they were dancing, right before the fight/almost kiss at the Bridgerton country ball, he asks her "Do you want me reconsider (my declaration to Edwina)? She deflects, saying it doesn't matter what she wants. He says, "I do not think that is true." She starts in with the "I'm returning to India," which cues Anthony's meltdown.

I think if Kate had said the word, had indicated that she was open to staying, and admitted her attraction to him, he would have proposed to her. But she was so insistent that she was leaving and that she wasn't going to marry and that it was all about Edwina. She didn't give him much hope that she wanted to be with him, other than the obvious attraction, which she kept fighting.

Edited June 13, 2022 by mrsbagnet

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, mrsbagnet said:

I've been thinking about this a lot (too much even). Anthony implied, though not directly enough, that he'd drop Edwina for Kate. When they were dancing, right before the fight/almost kiss at the Bridgerton country ball, he asks her "Do you want me reconsider (my declaration to Edwina)? She deflects, saying it doesn't matter what she wants. He says, "I do not think that is true." She starts in with the "I'm returning to India," which cues Anthony's meltdown.

I think if Kate had said the word, had indicated that she was open to staying, and admitted her attraction to him, he would have proposed to her. But she was so insistent that she was leaving and that she wasn't going to marry and that it was all about Edwina. She didn't give him much hope that she wanted to be with him, other than the obvious attraction, which she kept fighting.

I get what you’re saying, but I still put the ball in Anthony’s court here. I think he has an affirmative duty to end his courtship of Edwina first (but make it look good for her, so that she would not be ruined socially- he could easily do that), and THEN pursue Kate. 
 

It isn’t on the same level, but it reminds me of people who are cheating on their partner, and ask the “on the side” person “do you wanna be with me?? Are you going to be there?” (After a physical or emotional affair) no, if you’re the committed party, you make yourself free, and THEN pursue someone else. Don’t be selfish and expect someone waiting in the wings for you. 
 

Do I think Anthony is that type (no, as no one was married YET, but he was engaged, and making sex eyes at another woman while his betrothed was standing right there) but he was hiding behind that line of thinking. 

[ouinason]

Also, Anthony specifically didn't want to marry anyone he could love.  Like, not "love isn't important" or even "not someone I am obsessed with", but full on didn't want to even have the possibility of loving his wife, ever.  Man needs therapy.

[mrsbagnet]

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

Also, Anthony specifically didn't want to marry anyone he could love.  Like, not "love isn't important" or even "not someone I am obsessed with", but full on didn't want to even have the possibility of loving his wife, ever.  Man needs therapy.

Seriously. Between he and Kate, I've never seen two people so hell-bent on being unhappy.

[katha]

I think we're trying to assign some sort of rational thinking to Kate and Anthony that just...is not present. Once Anthony knew that he's in love with Kate, but that she doesn't consider him an option and wants to go back to India, he needed to end his courtship with Edwina and take a step back from both sisters to figure out what he wants. IMO the connection with the Sharmas would have ended for good at that point, because Kate would not have considered getting married to a guy who had rejected her sister. Or married at all because she only sees herself as the helper of the family. She was pretty much stuck in that mindset until almost the end of the season and only really catastrophic events coud shake her out of it to some degree.

But he thinks he can just stick to the original plan and his feellings for Kate will go away. Once Anthony starts connecting to reality and figures out what misery this will be for everyone, Kate has so drowned in her own guilt that she dares have feelings at all that she makes catastrophic panic choices by pleading with Anthony to not end the engagement. Like the show deliberately puts in various scenes that show how she's not thinking straight at all, for example when Edwina says she will be a fave aunt. So either she will hurt Edwina badly by permanently going away to India or, as Anthony rightly says, they will end up having an affair. They're in the middle of committing emotional betrayal already anyway, what with the clandestine meetings and deciding for Edwina behind her back. Anthony sees this, but thinks he can't back out anymore because of his love for Kate, and his honor and duty towards family and Edwina. Kate at this point is almost disassociating from reality IMO.

Edited June 14, 2022 by katha

[anamika]

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I get what you’re saying, but I still put the ball in Anthony’s court here. I think he has an affirmative duty to end his courtship of Edwina first (but make it look good for her, so that she would not be ruined socially- he could easily do that), and THEN pursue Kate.

So looking at the timeline, it's when Anthony sees Kate and Dorset together in episode 5, that he totally gets that the marriage is not going to work and it's a bad idea. It's also when Violet notices that he is unhappy with Edwina. Then we get the whole scene in the study where Violet encourages him to break off the engagement. Anthony tells her this is not possible because Edwina does not want to break off the engagement and he's duty bound to marry her now.

We then get the Sheffield's dinner and Anthony sees an opportunity to end the engagement. He thinks that Violet and Lady Danbury could end it in such a way as not to harm Edwina's reputation, but Edwina would think it's because of the Sheffield dinner. He pretty much even explains to Kate why his marriage to Edwina is bad - that he would be emotionally cheating on Edwina with Kate if the marriage goes through.

This is where my problem with Kate starts. I can understand Anthony - at the end of the day, he is not invested in Edwina's happiness. He's known Edwina only for the duration of the season. He selected her as his future bride after just one dance and a few questions. Edwina is like the Lord Berbrooke Anthony selected for Daphne last season - unmessy and uncomplicated, with whom he can have a simple family life with no problems like love entering the picture.

However, Kate IS invested in Edwina's happiness. She wants the best for her little sister because she loves her dearly. So just because Edwina tells her that she loves the Viscount, Kate is going to go along with this farce and doom her sister to an unhappy marriage? This would be the point where ideally Kate should have explained the situation to Edwina and given Edwina the choice. Would Edwina have been happy with Kate when told the truth? No. She would have been angry and betrayed. But atleast she would have been given the agency to make the decision given all the facts instead of having Kate and Anthony do that for her.

So instead Kate persuades Anthony to go ahead with the marriage for her sake. And therefore for the audience to understand where Kate is coming from and why she is doing this, we needed to understand Kate's trauma and how her sense of self is intertwined with serving her family due to a misguided feeling of having to earn her place with them. Kate feels like she does not deserve love or happiness or marriage, that Edwina should get what she wants - Anthony - and that it's her duty to see that this happens no matter what.

Spoiler

I feel like the show allowed Edwina to be angry and resentful to Kate and Anthony for what they did and yet at the same time, failed to give Kate the writing and scenes for her to process her trauma and childhood and come out of this in a better place. She needed some more scenes with Edwina and Mary. The couple of scenes we got with Edwina and Mary were good. But we needed more flashbacks and more acknowledgement and realization from Edwina for why Kate did what she did - that there was no actual malice involved and she was doing it for Edwina, misguided though it was.

As for Anthony pursuing Kate after breaking it off with Edwina:

Spoiler

I thought he did after episode 6? He brings up them kissing and she effectively shuts him down out of guilt and remorse.

Edited June 14, 2022 by anamika

[Roseanna]

On 6/14/2022 at 5:26 AM, katha said:

I think we're trying to assign some sort of rational thinking to Kate and Anthony that just...is not present. 

That. 

But Kate was *rational* when she first opposed the match, after hearing Anthony's reasons to marry. *Then* she thought about Edwina and her happiness. As a big sister she believed she knew what was best for her kid sister. 

It was after Edwina told her that loved Anthony and she had realized that she herself had feelings for him and he for him, that she began to act irrationally, insisting to him to marry her sister. I think her reason must be guilt that made her to make sure that Edwina got what she wanted, stopping like a big sister to ponder if it was in her interests or, treating her as an adult, to admit that she had the right to know the truth before marriage. 

It's not rare that people do as Kate: afraid to hurt Edwina now a little, she would have let her suffer for life.  

[mrsbagnet]

On 6/13/2022 at 5:40 PM, ouinason said:

Also, Anthony specifically didn't want to marry anyone he could love.  Like, not "love isn't important" or even "not someone I am obsessed with", but full on didn't want to even have the possibility of loving his wife, ever.  Man needs therapy.

On 6/13/2022 at 7:04 PM, mrsbagnet said:

Seriously. Between he and Kate, I've never seen two people so hell-bent on being unhappy.

I'm rewatching season 1 and man, it would great if someone did a sketch comedy series of therapy sessions with Bridgerton characters. The Duke's daddy issues, Anthony's fear of love, Kate thinking she doesn't deserve love, Benedict's insecurity, Eloise just being extra all the time -- the show could write itself.

[wanderingstar]

5 hours ago, mrsbagnet said:

I'm rewatching season 1 and man, it would great if someone did a sketch comedy series of therapy sessions with Bridgerton characters. The Duke's daddy issues, Anthony's fear of love, Kate thinking she doesn't deserve love, Benedict's insecurity, Eloise just being extra all the time -- the show could write itself.

And I would totally watch 🙂

[Scarlett45]

Rewatching as I am convalescing- Anthony and Kate in the closet. Anthony begging Kate to help him convince Edwina to get married, as he gives her sex eyes in the closet. 
 

We did not get enough Lady Danbury and Lady Violet in the preceding episodes. They are a HOOT together!

[andromeda331]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:58 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Rewatching as I am convalescing- Anthony and Kate in the closet. Anthony begging Kate to help him convince Edwina to get married, as he gives her sex eyes in the closet. 
 

We did not get enough Lady Danbury and Lady Violet in the preceding episodes. They are a HOOT together!

No we didn't. I hope we get more of them next season. Lady Danbury needs more to do. I saw her actress was hoping she'd get a love interest. So am I. Violet really needs someone her age to talk to and give her something more to do.