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S02.E01: The Star Gazer

formerlyfreedom

By formerlyfreedom
in Star Trek: Picard

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millennium
millennium

TOS seemed to promote the idea there was little or no crime anymore, no poverty, none of the ugly human traits that formerly plagued society.   Something as violent and ugly as domestic abuse would se

cambridgeguy
cambridgeguy

I'm pretty sure Q didn't do it to make Picard feel better, he did it to mock him.  I look as old as you now and boy, do I look old!

tennisgurl
tennisgurl

Also, why did Picard dress like a Dickensian street urchin as a child? 

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Llywela

Llywela

(edited)
11 minutes ago, marinw said:

Good insight about Elnor @Llywela. I feel protective towards him. Picard made a point about him being Romulan and despite claims to the contrary racism is probably still a thing. 

He's a cutie, right?! There are just so many angles to him joining Starfleet - the hero worship element, and his need for a place to belong, which he hasn't really had since he lost his parents, and the clash between his whole 'choose to live' beheading people schtick and Starfleet ethics - and he's so young and impressionable, and I totally understand why Raffi wants to keep him where she can see him. He clung so strongly to Qowat Milat tenets in season one, fresh from Vashti, he clearly saw himself as a Qowat Milat, pledging his sword to one lost cause after another, yet he can never actually be a Qowat Milat, so it is easy to see why the opportunity to truly belong to an organisation like Starfleet would have been attractive to him, especially after they came swooping in to the rescue like that, but signing up would have meant letting go of so much of his Qowat Milat identity - no more pledging his sword to lost causes - and I'd be really interested to learn how he reconciles that (which is just another reason why I'd almost prefer it if this was a Stargazer show with a true ensemble cast). Plus there's the way his Absolute Candor makes him almost a mirror image to the young Spock, who repressed his emotions as utterly as Elnor wears his on his sleeve. So much potential.

All the characters are so interesting and have so much potential for character exploration. I really hope we actually get some this season. I know it's Picard's show and everything always has to be about him, but when there are so many other interesting characters, I want to explore them too!

Edited by Llywela
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Chit Chat

Chit Chat

3 hours ago, marinw said:

One of the comments echos my own sentiment is thst there is nothing "Wrong" with Picard becuase he chooses to be single' 

I am unable to open the article, so I don't know if this was their train of thought, but some say he stayed single out of the fear of becoming like his abusive dad.  Just one thought on the matter!

salaydouk

salaydouk

(edited)
1 hour ago, ChitChat said:

I am unable to open the article, so I don't know if this was their train of thought, but some say he stayed single out of the fear of becoming like his abusive dad.  Just one thought on the matter!

While definitely that idea could be what is actually released as the reason by the time the season is over.  But I just feel that is not staying true to the character of Picard that we saw though 7 seasons of TNG and even some of the behaviours shown during the Nepenthe episode in season 1.  Picard never seemed to have any trouble working with Troi to gothough mental health issues, example the end of "Chain of Command" when he had been captured and tortured by the Cardassians and the episode end show the start of a session with Troi or during Family when it is obvious at the top of the episodes that he was having sessions with Troi and even "went home so his brother could fix him." But the best example is the scene in the ST:Generations where he is sitting with Troi talking about the death of his brother and nephew/how his nephew was the closest thing he would have to a child/the importance of this family history and how it would end with him now instead of going on with Rene.  So a man that would be so willing to utilize therapy and having to deal with the fallout of his nephew's death/death to his family line, I just find it a bit hard to believe that there would not have been more sessions dealing with any potential reason for why he would not have a long-term relationship and/or family.  So while he still might have chosen to remain alone/childless after therapy, I find it a bit difficult to believe that this particularchildhood trauma would just be coming up now.  Just my two cents...

Also could it just be that we are just over-analyzing this and overlooking the fact that Picard is now an android/synth?  I mean maybe he is just afraid that the mechanics won't work. 😜 I mean is there android/synth "little blue pills"? 😝

 

Edited by salaydouk
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salaydouk

salaydouk

22 minutes ago, ML89 said:

They both had cigars, Face brought them for Hannibal (it was also a carry over from Starbuck 😁 who did have unlit cigars in the cockpit).

But if you want Picard as Hannibal 😉

 

HAHAHA! And that was when Picard was attempting to say Engage...

And yeah there was no question about Starbuck...but I just really could not recall Face having them. So found a highlight reel and you are right.

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SnarkShark

SnarkShark

On 3/6/2022 at 12:11 PM, marinw said:

Good insight about Elnor @Llywela. I feel protective towards him. Picard made a point about him being Romulan and despite claims to the contrary racism is probably still a thing. 

Of course they're playing around with the "first full Romulan" technicality, since Starfleet in canon had at least three part-Romulans we know about (Saavik, Simon Tarses, Oh)  A bunch more, non-canonically.  Although obviously Oh and Tarses hid it, and I think Saavik's mixed status is technically non-canon, because it got edited out of Star Trek II (I think it was still in the novelization though). 

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Llywela

Llywela

I mean, it can't really be called a technicality if it's a fact. There have been part-Romulans at the Academy before - all, iirc, Federation-raised - but Elnor is the first full Romulan to join, born in the old Star Empire, raised by Romulans in full Romulan tradition, and that is significant, I would say.

Also significant, that it has taken so long after the Romulan supernova for a full Romulan to join Starfleet, despite so many Romulan refugees now living within Federation territory (I would guess? I mean, Picard had Laris and Zhaban living with him on Earth, and they can't be the only ones). That long delay speaks volumes for the continued tensions between Federation and Romulans, historic barriers and suspicions only slowly beginning to break down.

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mary2013

mary2013

I had a crazy thought.  The last thing the Borg Queen said to Picard was look up.  In his flashback with his mother, she said look up at the stars.  Now, what if the mixed up flashbacks of his father grabbing his mother and something in the dark dragging his mother across the floor was a child's mind trying to make sense of what he saw.  What if Picard's mother was taken by an alien and somehow wound up with the Borg.  Is it crazy to think that the new Borg Queen is Picard's mother???  I mean, there has to be a reason her face was covered up when it never was before.

Llywela

Llywela

I've seen speculation along those lines elsewhere. But I'm almost sure that Picard's mother made an appearance in an episode of TNG, so she lived well into old age and therefore could not have been snatched away by the Borg during Jean-Luc's childhood. Not to mention that the Borg would not have abducted a single woman; if they'd made it to Earth that long ago, they'd have assimilated the entire planet (and every other planet they encountered on the way). No, the first contact with the Borg came during TNG, as seen on-screen.

That said, this particular Borg ship came through a rend in space-time, therefore is quite probably from another universe, since a multiverse is well established in Trek, which means all bets are off for who she is beneath that mask. She definitely could be Picard's mother from that other timeline - or anyone else who has ever been significant to him.

Patrick Stewart has said in interviews that the flashbacks we saw in this episode are disjointed fragments seen through the eyes of a child, an unreliable narrator, so shouldn't be taken completely at face value. What Picard thinks he remembers isn't necessarily what happened.

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marinw

marinw

(edited)
2 hours ago, mary2013 said:

Is it crazy to think that the new Borg Queen is Picard's mother???  I mean, there has to be a reason her face was covered up when it never was before.

We know that the Queen is now played by Annie Wersching, who was not Picard's Mom in the flashback. When Picard was assimilated by the Borg, they had access to all his memories, (even the unrealible ones) so that's pobably why the Queen said "Look up".

Edited by marinw
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Emily Thrace

Emily Thrace

On 3/5/2022 at 1:30 PM, marinw said:

What is with Rios' cigars? Smoking is now allowed on Starships? Or is it the synthehol equivalent of tobacco?

I think it was the actors or other PTB way of showing Rios is not quite comfortable in his new role and is nervous. It also underlined that Rios is actually the first Cuban Captain Star Trek has ever had I suspect that was unintentional though. There have been ambiguously brown Captains with names like Rivera or Garcia but other than the Captain Hernandez (Who mentioned being Mexican American once) of Enterprise there been any Hispanic characters with a specific cultural backgrounds. B'lanna Torres was on Voyager for seven years and it was never stated if her father was Porto Rican or Columbian or Mexican. Its an interesting sign of progress both that Rios can be very explicitly and overtly Cuban and use Spanish on a Starship and not have the suits worried about the audience not getting it. 

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Llywela

Llywela

6 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think it was the actors or other PTB way of showing Rios is not quite comfortable in his new role and is nervous. It also underlined that Rios is actually the first Cuban Captain Star Trek has ever had I suspect that was unintentional though. There have been ambiguously brown Captains with names like Rivera or Garcia but other than the Captain Hernandez (Who mentioned being Mexican American once) of Enterprise there been any Hispanic characters with a specific cultural backgrounds. B'lanna Torres was on Voyager for seven years and it was never stated if her father was Porto Rican or Columbian or Mexican. Its an interesting sign of progress both that Rios can be very explicitly and overtly Cuban and use Spanish on a Starship and not have the suits worried about the audience not getting it. 

Chilean. Rios is Chilean, like his actor. He uses (I am told) quite specifically Chilean slang, speaks Spanish with a strong Chilean accent, and we know that the character was effectively written specifically for Cabrera, who was the first actor signed for the project after Stewart, before any scripts had been written. He was allowed to choose the character's name and the role was quite overtly built around his own Chilean heritage - which he has only rarely had the opportunity to lean into in any of his roles, so I'm really pleased for him that he gets to showcase his heritage on-screen through Rios.

Otherwise, yes, I agree, the cigars are a way to showcase both his Latino roots and his slight discomfort, still settling into his new role. Returning to Starfleet after 10 years battling depression and PTSD all alone is a very big deal for him. He's gone from being responsible for no one but himself to being responsible for an entire starship's crew, from being unconcerned with any rules but his own back to strict Starfleet regulations. It's a massive change - and he already liked having the cigar and lighter in his hand to play with before all that added stress.

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cambridgeguy

cambridgeguy

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

Otherwise, yes, I agree, the cigars are a way to showcase both his Latino roots and his slight discomfort, still settling into his new role.

It also reinforces the whole lovable rogue thing.  Stiff by-the-book captains don't fiddle with cigars and lighters, but they're not going to have him actually smoke the thing on the bridge because that's a step too far. 

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Zonk

Zonk

I just watched the red letter media thing on the first episode. Their theory is that the new Borg queen is Picard's mother. That is so stupid, it's probably correct.

My theory was that it is 7 of 9, who became a resistance borg queen during Q's time travel adventure. They had so many lines this episode with her struggeling to be Borg, that that would make perfect sense for her character arc. But again, with these writers, the dumber option is probably the correct one.

What we know for certain is that she is somebody we know, otherwise they wouldn't have hidden her face.

 

Btw. shower thought: If 7 hates the Borg this much now and constantly laments about how they stole her from her family, why does she still go by 7 instead of Annika? Seems weird.

 

The red letter guys also thought Guinan's line explaining her age was stupid, just like I mentioned in my previous post. Their solution was pretty good. Her just saying "well, after a thousand years, age starts to show even with my people." My solution would have been to keep her line about humans feeling uncomfortable seeing somebody not age, then let her swish across her face with one hand, making it distort slightly, revealing that it is a hologram obscuring her real, still young face.

 

On 3/4/2022 at 6:25 PM, salaydouk said:

I believe the usage of the order "As you were" was correct. Picards intention was to tell the crew forget he is on the bridge and to go back to what they were doing before they stood at attention due to his arrival on the bridge - therefore the order required is "as you were."

You are right. I got confused, because the crew never stood at attention. The correct order would have been:

- Rios says "admiral on the bridge"

- everybody stays at attention

- Picard says "at ease"

- The crew stands in a more relaxed postion

- Picard gives his speach

- Picard says "as you were"

- The crew goes back to their work

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ML89

ML89

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

What we know for certain is that she is somebody we know, otherwise they wouldn't have hidden her face.

Seven says "killed my parents" which I don't remember her saying that often...so....Seven's mom? Yeah, probably wrong wrong wrong too! (also more than "tens of millions" more like "tens of billions" I would think or even trillions).

Llywela

Llywela

(edited)

Red Letter Media really are not a reliable source for anything. They are essentially professional haters, who make money by spewing bile about all things NuTrek, spouting exaggerated opinions at great length because controversy generates clicks and their videos need to be a certain length in order to generate income. It is very unwise to pay much attention to anything they say, since none of their critique is offered in good faith. Their default position is to complain and assume the worst about everything, whether there is any basis for those assumptions or not (there usually isn't). 

Edited by Llywela
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salaydouk

salaydouk

(edited)
3 hours ago, Zonk said:

You are right. I got confused, because the crew never stood at attention. The correct order would have been:

- Rios says "admiral on the bridge"

- everybody stays at attention

- Picard says "at ease"

- The crew stands in a more relaxed postion

- Picard gives his speach

- Picard says "as you were"

- The crew goes back to their work

Yeah I noticed later that they did not initially come to attention which is completely wrong.  Your ordering is correct if Picard intended to give a speech and he wanted to the crew to hear it.   But I got the sense he was more interested in having a conversation with Rios/his friend and not stand on ceremony on the Bridge - so that is why he simply stated to the crew "as you were."  

Edited by salaydouk
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Llywela

Llywela

32 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

Yeah I noticed later that they did not initially come to attention which is completely wrong.  Your ordering is correct if Picard intended to give a speech and he wanted to the crew to hear it.   But I got the sense he was more interested in having a conversation with Rios/his friend and not stand on ceremony on the Bridge - so that is why he simply stated to the crew "as you were."  

Yeah, Picard wasn't there to stand on ceremony with the bridge crew. He was there to get on with the business of dealing with the anomaly, no time to waste.

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Zonk

Zonk

45 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

Yeah I noticed later that they did not initially come to attention which is completely wrong.  Your ordering is correct if Picard intended to give a speech and he wanted to the crew to hear it.   But I got the sense he was more interested in having a conversation with Rios/his friend and not stand on ceremony on the Bridge - so that is why he simply stated to the crew "as you were."  

I thought he gave a speach, but rewatching, I guess he speachified later.

Affogato

Affogato

On 3/6/2022 at 11:17 PM, salaydouk said:

While definitely that idea could be what is actually released as the reason by the time the season is over.  But I just feel that is not staying true to the character of Picard that we saw though 7 seasons of TNG and even some of the behaviours shown during the Nepenthe episode in season 1.  Picard never seemed to have any trouble working with Troi to gothough mental health issues, example the end of "Chain of Command" when he had been captured and tortured by the Cardassians and the episode end show the start of a session with Troi or during Family when it is obvious at the top of the episodes that he was having sessions with Troi and even "went home so his brother could fix him." But the best example is the scene in the ST:Generations where he is sitting with Troi talking about the death of his brother and nephew/how his nephew was the closest thing he would have to a child/the importance of this family history and how it would end with him now instead of going on with Rene.  So a man that would be so willing to utilize therapy and having to deal with the fallout of his nephew's death/death to his family line, I just find it a bit hard to believe that there would not have been more sessions dealing with any potential reason for why he would not have a long-term relationship and/or family.  So while he still might have chosen to remain alone/childless after therapy, I find it a bit difficult to believe that this particularchildhood trauma would just be coming up now.  Just my two cents...

Also could it just be that we are just over-analyzing this and overlooking the fact that Picard is now an android/synth?  I mean maybe he is just afraid that the mechanics won't work. 😜 I mean is there android/synth "little blue pills"? 😝

 

I think there is nothing wrong with Picard not having a long term romantic relationship or family, especially when he had an all consuming and endlessly fascinating profession. (and furthermore one that has prevented him from remaining stationary for long periods--soldiers have trouble with that, even now).  There are probably things in his character, psychological makeup, that make this easier for him than for others.

He does have many long term relationships and that we have seen many of them in this show. He is capable of bonding with people and he has done so repeatedly.

So the whole argument may be a case of a 'road less taken'.

 

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Llywela

Llywela

1 hour ago, WatcherUatl10 said:

"Jean Luc, I am your mother." LOL! This whole series is such a mess. Picard swearing at Q, Guinan and Q trying to match Picard in age, but not in plastic appearance, the whole parts of the episode devoted to speechifying... I just can't. But I'll watch anything with Santiago Cabrera. Sigh.

Not sure what you mean about the series being a mess. Season one had some balance and pacing issues but overall was highly watchable and very entertaining (it def. benefits from watching as a marathon rather than spacing the episodes out, mind), and this first episode of season two was excellent. Why shouldn't Picard swear at Q? Seems the most appropriate reaction to me! Picard used to swear back in TNG days, too, only he did it in French so the censors wouldn't notice. Star Trek has always pushed the boundaries as far as possible, only those boundaries are in a different place now than they once were. And Q aged himself up to match Picard in the TNG days too (All Good Things), so that was entirely in keeping. Far preferable to pretending the actors haven't aged. As for speechifying...TNG was notorious for that! No, this was perfectly Star Trek and I loved it.

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paigow

paigow

7 hours ago, marinw said:

There's good spechifying and bad. Picard is the former, STD the later. TOS and TNG had some superb speechifying, such as "The Defector".

I get confused because there were so many defector plots...

  • Human that joined Romulans but changed his mind...
  • Romulan with classified intel but was an unwitting pawn of Tomaluk
  • Young Cardassian double agent that "captured" Bajoran classmate of Wesley
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Stardancer Supreme

Stardancer Supreme

On 3/4/2022 at 7:33 AM, cambridgeguy said:

If Rios ends up remembering this then he needs to have a little talk with his security crew - he ordered them to stop firing and they ignored him.

Yeah, that was pretty glaring.  I'm sure the Borg Queen would not have stunned those folk had they not fired first (Thanks, Seven).

Laris and Seven are gorgeous. Everybody glowed up nicely in the last year.

I'm ready for the adventure!

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Hiyo

Hiyo

I liked it. A good start to the season.

Granted, I also enjoyed season 1 as well overall, and this seasons looks like it could be even better. So definitely looking forward to seeing the rest.

Quote

They are essentially professional haters, who make money by spewing bile about all things NuTrek, spouting exaggerated opinions at great length because controversy generates clicks and their videos need to be a certain length in order to generate income.

Them: Star Trek is so "woke" now!

Me: Star Trek has been "woke" since day one, you idiots.

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DisneyBoy

DisneyBoy

I binged season one and found myself turned-off by how traumatized all the characters were. It was pretty ridiculous at a certain point. Alcoholism! Killing your lover! Watching your captain commit suicide! It was too much.

The idea of Data having daughters was cool, I guess, but the show seemed too concerned with seeming grandiose and missed the mark with the delivery.

They even blew through the concept of Seven becoming a Queen. Weird. That could have been huge, but it wasn't.

 

I rather liked this episode but again, it's going for grandiose and missing the basic stuff to just be good. The random single-shaming from Guinan felt very forced. She of all people would, I think, understand the benefit of being unattached. Has she ever had a partner?

The winery gal hitting on Picard was hella awkward to me. I know Patrick still has charm but really now...she could be his daughter. Banging an 80 year old (with an untested synth body?) doesn't strike me as viable. Especially not in the house you shared with your late husband, barely dead for 2 years...! I was disappointed they went that way with her. Again, forced.

...especially since Picard could have just gotten a visit from Wesley and started to reminisce about Beverly. That would have gotten him to the same narrative place.

And where IS Beverly?? Do Gates and Patrick not get along? I waited all of TNG for their characters to date and it didn't happen in the movies either and now it's like...wow, they deliberately avoided this! Why? Something's up.

I miss the more reserved Seven. This feels like a lazier performance, though I know Jeri is a great actress. It's like she has to match the new tone with her performance. There isn't time for the patient character moments here that once made Seven so fascinating to watch.

Her saying the Borg "killed my parents!!!" was so weird. Writers, stop forcing the characters to awkwardly exposit. I also eyerolled at her OTT line about how "this could be the END of the Federation!!1!"

Why DID Rios wait to see what the Borg would do? Did he think they'd sing a song?

I hope the Queen ain't Picard's mama. I hope the season isn't about Picard staying single because Mommy left, or something.

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Quark

Quark

I thought this was a good premiere and I'm very intrigued by these Borg people (I never saw any of the original series), but judging by this form, and the episode, they don't seem like a pleasant race.

One thing I'm confused about, this show takes place before the events in Star Trek: Discovery, right? But this show seems much more futuristic to me. I guess Amazon Prime has a bigger budget?

Llywela

Llywela

8 hours ago, Quark said:

One thing I'm confused about, this show takes place before the events in Star Trek: Discovery, right? But this show seems much more futuristic to me. I guess Amazon Prime has a bigger budget?

Depends which season of Discovery you're talking about. Early seasons Disco were set something like 150 years before Picard, it started out as a prequel to the original Star Trek, but then they jumped forward in time to...was it the 32nd century? S2 Picard is set around 2401, so yes, it is an earlier time period than S3-4 Discovery. Picard is set in what probably counts as the 'present' of the Star Trek franchise, following on from earlier installments, while Discovery has leaped into the far future, in essence. But Discovery had that whole storyline about the Burn and how it curtailed interplanetary travel and set back technological development, so that probably plays into it a lot.

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dwmarch

dwmarch

On 4/5/2022 at 1:44 PM, Quark said:

I thought this was a good premiere and I'm very intrigued by these Borg people (I never saw any of the original series), but judging by this form, and the episode, they don't seem like a pleasant race.

The Borg are introduced in a season 2 episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation called "Q Who". It's a great episode and a lot of what happens there ties into the events of this episode and beyond. If you have access to old TNG episodes via streaming I would definitely watch that episode first.

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rmontro

rmontro

I was kind of amused by Dr. Jurati's response to being flirted with at the bar, and her implying that she wasn't a "pretty" person physically.  Maybe the point was that she was emotionally damaged, so she didn't see herself as attractive.  But I've seen this sort of thing on TV and film before.

Allison Pill may not be considered attractive among the elite actresses that inhabit her world, just because she has a bit of a quirky look, I guess.  But in the real world, she would be standout attractive wherever she goes.  Actress good looks.

Like I said, I've seen this before.  Some actress is presented in the story as homely, and I'm thinking "what the heck are you talking about, she's gorgeous".  Weird standards in Hollywood, I guess.

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