The Books, The Movies, The Show: Compare And Contrast

[Meredith Quill]

Compare & Contrast In Here!

[Sandman]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this comment, but the information I've seen online indicating young Galadriel had some sort of warrior role seems (to me, anyway) like something the Professor would not have recognized -- isn't the point of Eowyn that she's something of an anomaly as shieldmaiden?

The previews suggest strongly to me that Middle Earth is being Game of Throne-d up (or made Wheel of Timey-wimey?) pretty much as I had feared. Lord of the Rings: Generic Action Show doesn't feel like my cup of tea. Ah, well.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Sandman

[Haleth]

Oh, I don’t know about JRRT not recognizing a warrior Galadriel. He wrote of some pretty bad ass Elven women, including Idril, Luthien, and yes, Galadriel. 

[Morrigan2575]

I'm more worried about the female dwarf that looks nothing like a dwarf...where's the hair?

[Anduin]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm more worried about the female dwarf that looks nothing like a dwarf...where's the hair?

There's some around her neck.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

There's some around her neck.

I've seen another picture of a female dwarf from the series who also had a neckbeard, not sure what the source was.  It's not quite what Tolkien described, but I guess it's a nod in that direction.  

I'm very much a purist, so I am bothered when things are not true to the source material.  But I also recognize that different mediums call for different approaches, so it's not going to be exactly the same.  Peter Jackson probably did about as good a job that anyone could adapting the trilogy, but even with that there were choices he made that really irritated me.  In the end he did enough right to overcome it, but I'm not sure this series is going to be able to earn as much goodwill with me.  But I am definitely going to give it a watch, and hope for the best.

Edited February 16, 2022 by rmontro

[Sandman]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:34 PM, Haleth said:

Oh, I don’t know about JRRT not recognizing a warrior Galadriel. He wrote of some pretty bad ass Elven women, including Idril, Luthien, and yes, Galadriel. 

Galadriel is clearly a badass, but was she ever a warrior, or commander of warriors? Maybe I missed it -- I haven't read all of the Legendarium, so I might be talking out of my hat.

[rmontro]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:34 PM, Haleth said:

Oh, I don’t know about JRRT not recognizing a warrior Galadriel. He wrote of some pretty bad ass Elven women, including Idril, Luthien, and yes, Galadriel. 

Luthien was a badass because of her magic, that was her weapon.  Idril let her husband Tour take care the warrior duty.  I don't recall Galadriel ever being a warrior.  Honestly, the more I hear about this series the less interested I am in it.   Especially since half of Amazon's promotional material seems to be pushing political messaging and pre-emptive attacks on fans, rather than focusing on Tolkien,  I will likely check it out at some point, but I'm no longer looking forward to it.  Warner Brothers upcoming War of the Rohirrim movie sounds more interesting.

[Sandman]

On 2/28/2022 at 7:27 PM, rmontro said:

Especially since half of Amazon's promotional material seems to be pushing political messaging and pre-emptive attacks on fans …

Really? Wow, I guess I really am out of loop. (Maybe no bad thing?)

[Anduin]

14 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Really? Wow, I guess I really am out of loop. (Maybe no bad thing?)

No. Some people interpret casting POC or queer actors as an attack. 'Virtue signalling' they call it. 'Be true to Tolkien's vision' they say. They like to ignore any evidence that hints at anything outside their narrow little worldview. Ignore them.

[rmontro]

46 minutes ago, Anduin said:

No. Some people interpret casting POC or queer actors as an attack. 'Virtue signalling' they call it. 'Be true to Tolkien's vision' they say. They like to ignore any evidence that hints at anything outside their narrow little worldview. Ignore them.

That is not what I characterized as an attack.  There are a great many objections by Tolkien fans to Amazon's new series, from time compression to portraying Galadrial as a rage filled warrior, to the lack of beards on dwarf women, to creating new characters because they don't hold the license for the Silmarillion, etc. etc.  However, for Amazons purposes, it is convenient for them to dismiss all criticism by characterizing it as coming from various kinds of "ists".  

Now personally, I think the producers should hold true to Tolkien's vision, and from the professor's letters, so would Tolkien himself.  Why would anyone have a problem with that?

[Anduin]

30 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That is not what I characterized as an attack.  There are a great many objections by Tolkien fans to Amazon's new series, from time compression to portraying Galadrial as a rage filled warrior, to the lack of beards on dwarf women, to creating new characters because they don't hold the license for the Silmarillion, etc. etc.  However, for Amazons purposes, it is convenient for them to dismiss all criticism by characterizing it as coming from various kinds of "ists".  

Now personally, I think the producers should hold true to Tolkien's vision, and from the professor's letters, so would Tolkien himself.  Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Because of when we live in. It's no longer the 1950s. Surely creations should move with the time. Furthermore, do you really want to see beards on dwarf women? I'm happy without them. Rage-filled Galadriel? Well, that's an interesting take. Why is she so full of rage? I'm more curious than concerned.

As for why we see various kinds of ists, that's because there are various kinds of ists claiming to be Tolkien fans. Who hate to see any kind of diversity. Who would happily roll back to clock to the 1950s, or further. Look at the replies to any positive tweet by theonering.net, for example. So I want to stay positive myself. If that means ignoring a whole lot of ists, then I will. I have my own concerns, but they aren't related to minority representation.

[rmontro]

40 minutes ago, Anduin said:

 

I have my own concerns, but they aren't related to minority representation.

Nevertheless, Amazon is dismissing all criticism of the series as coming from those about minority representation.  Of course they're going to do that because they have a billion dollars invested in this.  I have a different take than you:  These are classic books written by a brilliant author with their own moral center, and they do not need updated or improved to appeal to 2022 sensibilities.  At all.  These books, and the films by Peter Jackson (which were very respectful to the material), are and have been immensely popular without pushing 2022 identity politics into them.  Now I am very much an ist when it comes to Tolkien, I am a purist. 

The producers said they want to show a world that looks more like the world we live in.  Um, what?  I thought this was supposed to be a fantasy?  If you want to write your own story, write your own story.  Why do you have to contaminate Tolkien, which I guarantee you is a more brilliant thing than any of these writers could ever conceive of?  Maybe the show is great, we'll have to wait and see.  But from what we know, this does not appear to be a faithful adaptation of Tolkien's work, nor do I see any indication that the producers wanted to make one.  

[Anduin]

31 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Nevertheless, Amazon is dismissing all criticism of the series as coming from those about minority representation.  Of course they're going to do that because they have a billion dollars invested in this.  I have a different take than you:  These are classic books written by a brilliant author with their own moral center, and they do not need updated or improved to appeal to 2022 sensibilities.  At all.  These books, and the films by Peter Jackson (which were very respectful to the material), are and have been immensely popular without pushing 2022 identity politics into them.  Now I am very much an ist when it comes to Tolkien, I am a purist. 

The producers said they want to show a world that looks more like the world we live in.  Um, what?  I thought this was supposed to be a fantasy?  If you want to write your own story, write your own story.  Why do you have to contaminate Tolkien, which I guarantee you is a more brilliant thing than any of these writers could ever conceive of?  Maybe the show is great, we'll have to wait and see.  But from what we know, this does not appear to be a faithful adaptation of Tolkien's work, nor do I see any indication that the producers wanted to make one.  

As I said before, you can't make a modern show without minority representation these days. You'd get viciously pilloried for it. As for contaminating, I see the opposite. Opening up and expanding the world. And if time had gone on, I bet Tolkien would have become more 'progressive' himself. I'm looking forward to it.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

As I said before, you can't make a modern show without minority representation these days. 

That seems patently ridiculous.  Surely the story being told, and the setting, should lead the casting.  Tolkien was specifically writing a mythology for medieval England, which was lacking one.  I don't know why he would see any need to "progress" beyond that.  I haven't seen one person object to the presence of POC as elves, dwarves, and hobbits because they do not want to see black people on their screen.  They just want to see the source material respected faithfully.  For Amazon to lump all these people into one group as ---ists is disgusting.  They don't care about Tolkien fans, they're just making a show for casual viewers.

[Anduin]

9 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That seems patently ridiculous.  Surely the story being told, and the setting, should lead the casting.  Tolkien was specifically writing a mythology for medieval England, which was lacking one.  I don't know why he would see any need to "progress" beyond that.  I haven't seen one person object to the presence of POC as elves, dwarves, and hobbits because they do not want to see black people on their screen.  They just want to see the source material respected faithfully.  For Amazon to lump all these people into one group as ---ists is disgusting.  They don't care about Tolkien fans, they're just making a show for casual viewers.

If you feel like that, then why are you following this forum? Seriously, no one's forcing you.

[rmontro]

Just now, Anduin said:

If you feel like that, then why are you following this forum? Seriously, no one's forcing you.

I've said several times I would have to watch the show to see if it's worthwhile or not.  I was initially quite excited about it, because I thought they had the license to The Silmarillion, which would be a better source for material from the Second Age.  Only recently has it come to light that they only have the Appendices and are going to have to make up a lot of their story themselves.  Reportedly, on the day Christopher Tolkien died, they made dramatic changes to the series that they couldn't have done if he was still alive.  Plus the attacks on fans (many of  them pre-emptive).  So my enthusiasm has dampened considerably, but it's not a foregone conclusion that it's going to be awful.  Since I am a massive Tolkien fan, it would be hard for me to completely ignore it.

The Fall of Numenor is an interesting story, if they choose to tell it.

[Anduin]

49 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I've said several times I would have to watch the show to see if it's worthwhile or not.  I was initially quite excited about it, because I thought they had the license to The Silmarillion, which would be a better source for material from the Second Age.  Only recently has it come to light that they only have the Appendices and are going to have to make up a lot of their story themselves.  Reportedly, on the day Christopher Tolkien died, they made dramatic changes to the series that they couldn't have done if he was still alive.  Plus the attacks on fans (many of  them pre-emptive).  So my enthusiasm has dampened considerably, but it's not a foregone conclusion that it's going to be awful.  Since I am a massive Tolkien fan, it would be hard for me to completely ignore it.

The Fall of Numenor is an interesting story, if they choose to tell it.

I have good news! This show is set around the end of the Second Age. Numenor is really going to make a splash. It won't be the only element to the show, but it'll be there.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

I have good news! This show is set around the end of the Second Age. Numenor is really going to make a splash. It won't be the only element to the show, but it'll be there.

Yes, I know they are telling the Numenor story.  Maybe it will even be good.  As I said, we'll have to see. 

[JustHereForFood]

9 hours ago, rmontro said:

The producers said they want to show a world that looks more like the world we live in.  Um, what?  I thought this was supposed to be a fantasy?  If you want to write your own story, write your own story.  Why do you have to contaminate Tolkien, which I guarantee you is a more brilliant thing than any of these writers could ever conceive of?  Maybe the show is great, we'll have to wait and see.  But from what we know, this does not appear to be a faithful adaptation of Tolkien's work, nor do I see any indication that the producers wanted to make one.  

Why can't all fantasy be only about white straight men?! Don't people know that elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc are all white in real life? What do they teach kids in schools these days? Write your own story, don't contaminate my precious safespace. But don't you dare to write in any black elves into that own story either, that is also political agenda! All elves are white, it's written in the Fantasy Bible!

The whining would be a music to my ears if it didn't cause so much damage, not just for fans, but for the social atmosphere in general. I have a feeling a lot of it is part of the infowar.

[Aulty]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

These books, and the films by Peter Jackson (which were very respectful to the material), are and have been immensely popular without pushing 2022 identity politics into them.  Now I am very much an ist when it comes to Tolkien, I am a purist.

I love the movies but find it very entertaining that people use them as glorified example to diss a series they've only seen a trailer for.
Peter Jackson has taken quite some liberties and he was very lucky that Social Media wasn't around when he was working on the films. He wanted to have Arwen at the battle of Helms Deep ffs. They even shot those scenes. There are a couple of shots in the movie where you can clearly see her in the background. PJ also let Aragorn leave Rivendell without THE sword.
Back then only a couple of fan sites got wind of it and complained, but if it had gotten out at the same scale the Amazon stuff has, the keyboard warriors would've CAPS-LOCKED themselves hoarse.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Aulty

[Anduin]

41 minutes ago, Aulty said:

I love the movies but find it very entertaining that people use them as glorified example to diss a series they've only seen a trailer for.
Peter Jackson has taken quite some liberties and he was very lucky that Social Media wasn't around when he was working on the films. He wanted to have Arwen at the battle of Helms Deep ffs. They even shot those scenes. There are a couple of shots in the movie where you can clearly see her in the background riding with Gandalf and Eomer. PJ also let Aragorn leave Rivendell without THE sword.
Back then only a couple of fan sites got wind of it and complained, but if it had gotten out at the same scale the Amazon stuff has, the keyboard warriors would've CAPS-LOCKED themselves hoarse.

Faramir and the ents were bad enough! All those other things would have been terrible.

[tessaray]

8 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Why can't all fantasy be only about white straight men?! Don't people know that elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc are all white in real life? What do they teach kids in schools these days? Write your own story, don't contaminate my precious safespace. But don't you dare to write in any black elves into that own story either, that is also political agenda! All elves are white, it's written in the Fantasy Bible!

The whining would be a music to my ears if it didn't cause so much damage, not just for fans, but for the social atmosphere in general. I have a feeling a lot of it is part of the infowar.

I'm an old white lady and I kind of love the new clips that use actors of all backgrounds, though it did startle me a little.  Bottom line - I want every nerdy 12 year old to feel they are welcome in this universe. 

Imo, creating worlds or works that outlive you and get adapted far and wide (by everyone) is genius and proof of the universality of storytelling. Tolkien should approve, since that's what he was trying to do with all that Norse mythology. 

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, Aulty said:

Peter Jackson has taken quite some liberties and he was very lucky that Social Media wasn't around when he was working on the films. He wanted to have Arwen at the battle of Helms Deep ffs. 

Oh believe me, I have a lot of problems with some of the decisions Jackson made.  As I said, I am a purist.  I couldn't really enjoy my first viewing of any of the LOTR films because I was so jarred by the changes.  Once that was out of the way, I was able to sit through the second viewing and enjoy it.  I think the thing that bothers me most about the Jackson films are the changes they made to Aragorn, about his reluctance to accept his lineage instead of embracing it.  This was supposedly done to give him more character development.  You won't be shocked to hear I thought it unnecessary.  In any case, Jackson's versions did enough right to make up for the changes.  The Hobbit, now that's another story.

[Raachel2008]

The Books, The Movies, The Show: Compare And Contrast: It has been aaaages since I've read the books, I rewatch the trilogy once a year and I enjoyed the two episodes. I'm extremely glad they decided to have POC in several roles. I don't care if Tolkien was writing about Medieval England and if he was crazy about Celtic and Norse mythology, all kids watching The Rings of Power have the right to watch the screen and see themselves on the screen. Period. That's it. 

It rubbed me the wrong way that the only black elf we saw so far on screen was a low rank patrol elf - and we are clearly supposed to see the elves as superior. I also think they went to hard with the old black Harfoot, who, IMVOHO, was this close to look like an Uncle Tom, though not meant to be one, not sure if I'm being clear here.

I think they captured the general feeling of the trilogy, I totally felt like watching something straight from there. As for the books, like I said, it has been ages, but the general idea is there, the "texture" feels right. It is not a copy and past and I'm ok wit that, even more so because they don't have the Simarillion rights.

They need a better grasp on the dialogues, tough. They are not aaaawful, Durin's little speech to Elrond was wonderful, but they need to improve.

Last but not least, I saw a ton of people complaining about Celimbribor being played by an older actor, because the elves don't age after they 'mature', yadda yadda yadda. Fuck that. They needed someone older to explain why five seasons from now Galadriel will look older.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Raachel2008

[Rushmoras]

Quick question, maybe I'm misremembering something, but a thought popped in to my head. Weren't the orcs created much later than the timeline of the series by cross-breeding elves and goblins? Shouldn't instead of orcs there be goblins? Or is my head-cannon wrong?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Rushmoras

[quarks]

22 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

Quick question, maybe I'm misremembering something, but a thought popped in to my head. Weren't the orcs created much later than the timeline of the series by cross-breeding elves and goblins? Shouldn't instead of orcs there be goblins? Or is my head-cannon wrong?

Orcs appear back in the First Age, well before the timeline of this show. Galadriel doesn't go into it - and neither did Tolkien - but the Elves initially appeared/were born in Middle-Earth, and then were summoned to Valinor. They had to walk, and then take boats, and not everyone made it. A few Elves were already "lost" - that is, possibly captured by Morgoth - before that summons, and more were lost along the way.

The Elves who did get there were there for thousands of years - long enough for Morgoth's forces to breed Orcs. When the Noldor returned to Middle-Earth, the Orcs were there, waiting.

On 9/2/2022 at 1:57 AM, Raachel2008 said:

Last but not least, I saw a ton of people complaining about Celimbribor being played by an older actor, because the elves don't age after they 'mature', yadda yadda yadda. Fuck that. They needed someone older to explain why five seasons from now Galadriel will look older.

That's directly contradicted in the books and the material collected in The Histories of Middle-Earth. The Books of Lost Tales have multiple older looking elves. Later texts clarify that Thingol and Turgon looked older than some of the other Elves. Later on, Fellowship of the Ring notes that Elrond looks older than Glorfindel, and in Return of the King, Cirdan the Shipwright, an elf who is considerably older than Elrond, is described as "grey and old." The Elves age slowly when they are in Middle-Earth, but they do age.

Since I'm doing quite of bit of "back to the text" here, some more stuff about Galadriel and Idril:

In terms of Galadriel's warrior status, we have this from Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings:

"....and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleaned."

I assume she used her ring to do this, and it's possible that she did it calmly, but she was definitely there at the battle for Dol Guldur. 

Tolkien was still working out her backstory when he died, but he described her as one of the major leaders of the Noldor, and some versions/notes strongly suggest that this was as a military leader. He also stated that although she spent much of her initial time in Middle-Earth in Doriath, she took several journeys to visit family and friends - and often journeyed alone, at a time when Tolkien also makes it clear that this meant lots of attacks by orcs. So I don't think that Amazon/this show is reaching very far to depict her as a warrior elf.

According to both the abbreviated text in The Silmarillion and the more extensive texts in Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, Idril did not "let her husband Tour take care the warrior duty." In the very first version of the story - the only completed one, in The Book of Lost Tales, part II - Tolkien explicitly stated:

"...and there in his house upon the walls Idril arrays herself in mail..."

Later, we get:

"Now then Meglin had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelity of heart, that she might see the fall of Earendel [her son] to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness." 

And then, while she is assuming that her husband is dead:

"...she fared about gathering womenfolk and wanderers and speeding them down the tunnel, and smiting marauders with her small band; nor might they dissuade her from bearing a sword."

For whatever reason, Tolkien never managed to finish rewriting that tale, but the notes and later drafts confirmed that Idril was foresighted, was the person responsible for building the escape route from Gondolin, and led the survivors out of Gondolin. 

And of course later on he had the story of Eowyn.

I definitely wouldn't call Tolkien "woke," or anything even close to that. But as a medievalist who also read extensively in the classics, he certainly had multiple examples of warrior women/queens/goddesses to work with, and he incorporated those into his texts. 

All of this also led me to look at Appendix A again, which contains more about the Valar and the Two Trees than I'd remembered, so...yeah, the show has a little more to work with than just "random things Gandalf said to Pippin that one time."

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Rushmoras said:

Quick question, maybe I'm misremembering something, but a thought popped in to my head. Weren't the orcs created much later than the timeline of the series by cross-breeding elves and goblins? Shouldn't instead of orcs there be goblins? Or is my head-cannon wrong?

Tolkien did once say that orcs were created from elves. However, he changed his mind about that and never came up with a proper explanation of their origin. I hope the show doesn't go into it.

[Haleth]

Idril certainly was a formidable woman Elf. Her sword wasn’t just for show. I seem to remember reading that she fought Orcs while Gondolin was under siege, and yes, she led the refugees to safety. (All my books are in storage at the moment while we are moving.)

I don’t recall when Galadriel and Celeborn met and married. Will we be meeting him soon?

[cambridgeguy]

Galadriel and Celeborn met and married in the First Age.  It's possible they're married in the show, but I find it very hard to believe she'd even consider going back to Valinor without this coming up.  Unlike the movie, in the book she actually does take off while he stays at the end of the Third Age, so it's clearly not a deal breaker, but presumably they discussed the matter.

Edited September 4, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[quarks]

1 minute ago, Haleth said:

Idril certainly was a formidable woman Elf. Her sword wasn’t just for show. I seem to remember reading that she fought Orcs while Gondolin was under siege, and yes, she led the refugees to safety. (All my books are in storage at the moment while we are moving.)

I don’t recall when Galadriel and Celeborn met and married. Will we be meeting him soon?

16 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Galadriel and Celeborn met and married in the First Age.  It's possible they're married in the show, but I find it very hard to believe she'd even consider going back to Valinor without this coming up.  Unlike the movie, she actually does take off while he stays at the end of the Third Age, so it's clearly not a deal breaker, but presumably they discussed the matter.

Back to the text!

In Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien says:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-Earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies 'embedded in the traditions'"

Christopher Tolkien goes on to say that in the original concept (alluded to in The Fellowship of the Ring) Galadriel met Celeborn in Doriath, well before Gondolin and Nargothrond fell - that is, in the First Age. He also quotes a text confirming that in a later conception of Galadriel:

"Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back...."

Those specific words appear in Unfinished Tales and in the later Histories of Middle-Earth, texts that the show apparently doesn't have rights to, so I don't think we'll be seeing any of that, but it does confirm that Tolkien had the concept of a fighting, warrior Galadriel in mind at some point.

Christopher Tolkien also notes that his father started, but never finished, a very different version of the story of Celeborn and Galadriel, where they actually met in Valinor (well, more specifically in Alqualonde), and they sailed back to Middle-Earth together.

So the text seems uncertain about when, precisely, the two of them met, and absolutely no clarification about when, precisely, they married.  Something the show seems to be taking advantage of, since they don't seem to be married - or even previously married - on the show. I guess it's possible that they did meet and marry back in the First Age, and then Celeborn was all, "Can we stop this running around everywhere to track down trolls," and Galadriel was like, "Yeah, no," and they agreed to go their separate ways, but in that case, I would have expected some sort of mention of Celeborn in these first two episodes, and we didn't get one. 

So my guess is that instead, the show will have Galadriel and Celeborn meet up and say, "Wow, it's been literally thousands of years since we last hung out! How's life been treating you?" and then have them decide to get married. I don't think that's quite the concept that Tolkien was going for, but it doesn't completely contradict the existing texts, either.

[Haleth]

In one of the History of ME volumes JRRT says that Elves don’t spend eternity in their marriages. After raising kids and 50 or so years of waking up to each other they often go their separate ways. Maybe this was a period when they were doing a time out and came back together for the third age, you know, for the grandkids. 

[JustHereForFood]

Is there some website that has a good, comprehensive map of Middle Earth in this age? They were showing bits as the plot moved from one location to another, but it would be good to look at it all as a whole.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

Is there some website that has a good, comprehensive map of Middle Earth in this age? They were showing bits as the plot moved from one location to another, but it would be good to look at it all as a whole.

Have a look. It doesn't mention Tir Harad, but I'm figuring that would be somewhere in Near Harad. And we don't know where the hobbits are exactly, only they're somewhere in Eriador, west of the Misty Mountains.

[QuantumMechanic]

Given when the show is set and the title of it and the sorts of things it was bound to touch on, I'm kinda surprised the Estate didn't allow them to buy the rights to Akallabêth and On the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

Unless the production didn't want to buy them so as to be more free to break canon if desired?

[quarks]

39 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Given when the show is set and the title of it and the sorts of things it was bound to touch on, I'm kinda surprised the Estate didn't allow them to buy the rights to Akallabêth and On the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

Unless the production didn't want to buy them so as to be more free to break canon if desired?

I don't think this was a production decision?  Christopher Tolkien reportedly hated the earlier films, and said that he did not think the rest of the material should be filmed. Christopher Tolkien has also made a huge point of saying that his initial decision back in the 1970s to create The Silmarillion with Guy Gavriel Kay was a mistake, and that what he should have done was what he eventually did do - publish essentially every thing that his father ever wrote about Middle-Earth, noting all of the changes along the way, and noting that even in the end Tolkien hadn't decided on some crucial details, and was considering overhauling some major parts - changing the story of the Sun and the Moon, for instance. He resigned as director of the Tolkien Estate in 2017, but I doubt anyone there wanted to really go against his wishes - or against those of Tolkien's daughter, Priscilla Tolkien, who sued Warner Bros in 2012 over a different issue, but presumably would not have been all that enthusiastic about another adaptation. 

Amazon bought the television rights to this in 2017, started development in 2018, and moved it into full production in 2019 - all before Christopher Tolkien died in early 2020. His sister Priscilla died earlier this year. I suspect that had Amazon been willing to wait four or five more years, the Tolkien Estate, now representing less-emotionally-involved grandchildren/great-grandchildren, would have been willing to sell the rights to more Second Age material, but they didn't want to just hang on to the rights they had without doing something with them.

[PeterPirate]

I'm not sure I belong in this show's subforum because I haven't watched it yet.  I've read the LOTR enough times to be able to point out the differences between the books and the movies to a pretty good degree.  I found the first two Hobbit movies so objectionable I have never watched the third.

I'm going to keep my options open about this show, but for the time being I haven't heard anything I am going to find engaging. 

[JTMacc99]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm going to keep my options open about this show, but for the time being I haven't heard anything I am going to find engaging. 

There is a five season commitment, so we are only two hours into a 40 hour (at least) story to be told. I'm assuming that I simply have to assume that it could be a full two seasons of getting up to speed as opposed to two episodes.

[PeterPirate]

11 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

There is a five season commitment, so we are only two hours into a 40 hour (at least) story to be told. I'm assuming that I simply have to assume that it could be a full two seasons of getting up to speed as opposed to two episodes.

I'm more interested in fidelity to the source material than having a show that is entertaining.  The Hobbit movies were a huge, bloated mess created by corporate greed.  I'm not interested in going through that again with a modern-age version of Tolkien.  

Edited September 8, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Raachel2008]

On 9/4/2022 at 11:03 AM, quarks said:

That's directly contradicted in the books and the material collected in The Histories of Middle-Earth. The Books of Lost Tales have multiple older looking elves. Later texts clarify that Thingol and Turgon looked older than some of the other Elves. Later on, Fellowship of the Ring notes that Elrond looks older than Glorfindel, and in Return of the King, Cirdan the Shipwright, an elf who is considerably older than Elrond, is described as "grey and old." The Elves age slowly when they are in Middle-Earth, but they do age.

I may have expressed myself poorly here, I meant that I saw people complained that they dared show older - and in old - elves on screen. Apparently  there are folks on social media who only want to see the like of Legolas on screen.

[QuantumMechanic]

This 3rd episode is the first one where the compressed Second Age timeline really drove me up the wall.

We are in the closing 200 years of the Second Age (which we can tell from the presence of Elendil, Isildur, et al).  Yet the Ring and Rings haven't even been forged yet and Sauron is this mysterious whisper and Galadriel has found plans for Sauron to eventually set up in Mordor.

Are we really going to go from Sauron being this mystery that only a few believe is even still around to forging the rings, to having another war with the Elves, to being captured by the Numenoreans and being the vessel of their final corruption?  Seems hard to make that all work, which is too bad because I think it could be a good story.

Really, I think they could have told a better, more focused story (that even would have engaged the mundanes) if they had just set it starting around 3240 S.A., with the past already having happened (i.e. Rings forged 1600 years prior, etc.) and simply told the story of the downfall of Numenor, the founding of Gondor (and Arnor), and the Last Alliance.

You could have plenty of action scenes -- Numenorean forces fighting Sauron's forces and capturing him.  And then later, the battles of the Last Alliance, including the epic confrontation between Sauron, Gil-Galad, and Elendil on the slopes of Orodruin.

You could have the scenes of Sauron further corrupting Ar-Pharazon and the court, blossoming into full Morgoth-worship.

Plenty of chances to invent some good storylines set in the conflicts between The Faithful and the King's Men (could even have some doomed cross-faction romance if you wanted something like that).

Nazgul have existed for almost 1000 years by this point.  Use them!

You could set some B-plot in Middle-Earth with the Elves fighting some rear-guard action against Sauron (before Ar-Pharazon shows up and wipes out Sauron's forces and captures him).

Ah well...

Edited September 10, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[Haleth]

They have 5 years to tell the story. 

[QuantumMechanic]

To be fair, supposedly they have a 40-50 episode commitment, so they do have time.

But IMHO the compressed timeline messes things up.

I wonder how it would have gone if they had told different time segments of the second age (i.e. don't bother with the compressed timeline stuff), with the final season being the end of Numenor and the Last Alliance.

So maybe this season is about the forging of the Rings (and sure, maybe compress the timeline a bit in that bit of history -- so instead of it being 200 years from the forging of the first of the Rings to the big war between the Elves and Sauron (Elves get defeated, of course) and Sauron's first defeat at the hands of the Numenoreans, make it be 2 or 5 or 10 years.

Then jump ahead some centuries and write some story about Sauron gradually rebuilding his forces (now you can work in the mysterious Sauron stuff from this season) and can do the stuff with the protohobbits they're doing now. Touch on Numenor and show the beginnings of their turn towards evil.

Then jump ahead again to the corruption, tragedy, and destruction of Numenor as described a couple of posts back.

[quarks]

The show is called the Rings of Power, so, yeah, I'm expecting at least one of the rings to show up by the end of the season. Maybe not the one ring, but at least one of the lesser rings.

Which right there presents another problem. The show needs to give out nine rings to mortal Men, seven to the Dwarf Lords, and three to the Elven Kings. We are three episodes in, and despite a cast that feels overcrowded, we really haven't seen too many of those potential ringbearers - maybe two of the dwarves, maybe a couple of the human men. Especially since we know that some of the major speaking parts (all of the Harfoots, plus Elendil, plus Pharazon, and presumably Arondir and Bronwyn) are not getting rings - or in Isildur's case, are not getting one of the lesser rings of power. I don't think we need to see a lot of these potential ringbearers necessarily, but it's a bit odd, in a show called The Rings of Power, to be spending so much time with characters who will not be getting any rings of power.

On a related note, I am also kinda surprised that we are three episodes in and have seen/heard virtually nothing about one of those potential Ringbearers - Cirdan. I realize he's very much a side character in the books, and I wasn't expecting him to have a huge role here, but I was expecting him to come up a bit more than he has so far. Maybe in the next few episodes. 

[PeterPirate]

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Great seeing Cynthia Addai-Robinson as the Queen Regent of Numenor, although of course it ends up being the same episode where they kill of Simon Merrells's character, so I guess only one former Spartacus cast member is allowed at a time!

As of now, this is almost feeling like homework instead of entertainment.  Weird.

This post got me to break down and watch this show.  Not for entertainment, but as an intellectual exercise to try to reconcile this show with Tolkien's works.  

I loved Spartacus, enough to buy all of the DVD sets for it.  It was over-the-top and loosely, loosely, loosely based on history.  I figure if I want to keep my sanity while watching Rings of Power, I need to consider it as the LOTR equivalent to Spartacus.   

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Not for entertainment, but as an intellectual exercise to try to reconcile this show with Tolkien's works.  

That's why I like to watch adaptations of books.  I just find it interesting to see what they tried or didn't try to do to adapt the original work.

I wonder if this show would have worked better if it started in Numenor and the initial protagonist was someone more relatable like Elendil's family.  Maybe through Elendil, Isildur and his sister, we could have seen the divisions occurring in Numenor, and maybe a bit of the political intrigue.  The backstory of the First Age could be explained/narrated by a librarian in the room with all the scrolls, or something.

Then, in the second or third episode, a less cantankerous Galadriel and Halbrand could be found by Elendil, and a reworked version of Galadriel's storyline from Episode 1-2 could be told in flashback.  Galadriel can still be searching for proof that Sauron is still active and Elendil finds a way to help her without being too overt.  

Once the sign is identified as a map of Mordor, then an episode can travel over the sea to the South Lands and show us the story with Bronwyn and Arondir. 

And then at this point, the meteor could appear, and then the Harfoots and the Stranger could be introduced.  I'm assuming Numenor saw the meteor as well and between that and the symbol/map of Mordor, it would push the characters from Numenor and Galadriel and Halbrand towards Middle Earth, and the various subplots can intersect.

Out of all the characters so far, I do like Elrond, but maybe his stuff with the dwarves could come later in the season, as they build towards the forging of the rings.

[Affogato]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:14 PM, rmontro said:

That seems patently ridiculous.  Surely the story being told, and the setting, should lead the casting.  Tolkien was specifically writing a mythology for medieval England, which was lacking one.  I don't know why he would see any need to "progress" beyond that.  I haven't seen one person object to the presence of POC as elves, dwarves, and hobbits because they do not want to see black people on their screen.  They just want to see the source material respected faithfully.  For Amazon to lump all these people into one group as ---ists is disgusting.  They don't care about Tolkien fans, they're just making a show for casual viewers.

The tolkien family (trust?) apparently approves this version and objected to Peter Jackson’s version. According to articles l’ve read. 
 

there were people of color and women in armor in medieval europe.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Affogato

[rmontro]

17 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The tolkien family (trust?) apparently approves this version and objected to Peter Jackson’s version. According to articles l’ve read. 

The difference there is Christopher Tolkien has died.  Chris was a very zealous guardian of his father's work, the rest of the family is more free with it.  As for people of color, I'm not looking to make it an issue, but Tolkien did not write them into his book.

[Zuleikha]

16 hours ago, Affogato said:

there were people of color and women in armor in medieval europe.

Not many, especially in isolated and small communities. More in urban areas, but still a small percentage. Even now, the UK is 87% white per the last census (in 2011, so probably a little bit smaller now... but still). Medieval myths/legends do include both non-European characters and women in armor, but the story typically comments on this. The stories acknowledge that the characters are not common for the setting.

If you think of how the actual LotR talked about Eowyn, it is very similar to how myth/legends present warrior women. LotR acknowledged that Eowyn was unusual for her society. By contrast Rings of Power seems to just expect the audience to not be curious about how/why Galadriel is in the position she's in or think about how her being female in the role may affect her social relations with others. But we also can see that the elven army is predominantly (maybe even exclusively?) made up of male elves.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Zuleikha

[PeterPirate]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's why I like to watch adaptations of books.  I just find it interesting to see what they tried or didn't try to do to adapt the original work.

I wonder if this show would have worked better if it started in Numenor and the initial protagonist was someone more relatable like Elendil's family.  Maybe through Elendil, Isildur and his sister, we could have seen the divisions occurring in Numenor, and maybe a bit of the political intrigue.  The backstory of the First Age could be explained/narrated by a librarian in the room with all the scrolls, or something.

Then, in the second or third episode, a less cantankerous Galadriel and Halbrand could be found by Elendil, and a reworked version of Galadriel's storyline from Episode 1-2 could be told in flashback.  Galadriel can still be searching for proof that Sauron is still active and Elendil finds a way to help her without being too overt.  

Once the sign is identified as a map of Mordor, then an episode can travel over the sea to the South Lands and show us the story with Bronwyn and Arondir. 

And then at this point, the meteor could appear, and then the Harfoots and the Stranger could be introduced.  I'm assuming Numenor saw the meteor as well and between that and the symbol/map of Mordor, it would push the characters from Numenor and Galadriel and Halbrand towards Middle Earth, and the various subplots can intersect.

Out of all the characters so far, I do like Elrond, but maybe his stuff with the dwarves could come later in the season, as they build towards the forging of the rings.

Having watched two episodes, I've completely given up trying to reconcile this show with the books.  They are just taking some of the characters and some of the lore and weaving their own tale.  And The Tale of Years may as well not exist as far as this show is concerned.  

That said, I find the overall storytelling somewhat compelling.  I do a fair amount of eye-rolling and sighing at times.  But in the end I prefer this over the Hobbit movies.          

Edited September 11, 2022 by PeterPirate